Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

[Pattszero]

7x7 - There is no mechanism in place to deny Scottish residents that have paid into the NHS access to the NHS.

Your line about general taxation is a red herring - you know what the contract and obligation of NIC is. I believe at this moment in time you are kicking yourself in the realization that I'm right. It would be better that you admitted that the UK government will either have to honour the current agreement - or provide a lump sum to fund their obligation. There is no chance whatsoever of the UK government providing a lump sum, so they will have to grant access to the NHS for Scottish resident NI contributants.

Sometimes in life you have to put your hand up and admit that what you think should happen, and what will happen, are two totally different things.

No one pays into the NHS per se.

Scottish residents are the same as residents in all other parts of the UK. They pay taxes and NICs, if obliged to, part of which goes to fund the NHS.

NHS treatment is available to all UK residents, regardless of how much, or little, they may have paid in taxes and NICs.

An independent Scotland will not be part of the UK. Therefore residents in an independent Scotland will not be UK residents.

There is no logical nor fair reason why residents of an independent Scotland should be treated (no pun intended) in this or any other regard any differently to all other non UK residents. Including non UK residents who are British citizens.

But, of course, Yes supporters demand that they are given special treatment (again, no pun intended) in this and many other areas. Simply because you want independence for Scotland, yet want to retain all the rights and benefits of being part of the UK where that is to your advantage.

Sophistry - and this has nothing to do with yes voters.

Every Scottish resident that has paid into the UK NIC system is entitled to the benefits accrued. That includes the no voters. That includes the English born residents. Even those from Sussex.

I would imagine a line will be drawn under past NI payments. Scotland would inherit the hospitals, clinics, surgeries, dentists, equipment, staff, etc that is domiciled there and will have to fund it itself from then on. Likely an agreement will be made for cross charging (under E111? perhaps) for Scots in the UK and vice versa. I would suggest it will be a minor thing all in all compared to other considerations.

There's no way a line would drawn under past NI payments. The UK government will be obliged to fund/underwrite the NIC accrued benefits.

As for the assets - yes, this is what Salmond has said repeatedly. We will share the assets, and we will share the debts.

In the never-going-to-happen situation where the UK government denies Scotland it's fair share of assets, Salmond has stated that we will abrogate our share of the debt.

He was just being a cheeky b*gger when he said that. He knows the UK government are not that stupid.

[Pattszero]

Both sides are posturing - what would you expect?

I personally feel that the Better Together campaign would have run a better campaign if they didn't posture. One example - re the fiscal union argument, instead of saying -

"There will never be a fiscal union," - they should have said, "of course you can join the sterling zone. You are very welcome - however we hope you realize that every decision we take will be in the interest of the UK economy. Sorry if that hurts your economy, not much we can do about that, old chum."

[wigantojapan]

Give us your money and we will give you the food banks...better together

give us your money and we will give you the bedroom tax better together

give us your money and the undemocratic House of lords can veto any bill they like better together

give us your money and we will trash you at all times unless its referendum posturing better together

give us your money and we will keep on perpetrating the myth that The Uk subsidizes Scotland better together

[wigantojapan]

better together

[Pattszero]

<snip>

Every Scottish resident that has paid into the UK NIC system is entitled to the benefits accrued. That includes the no voters. That includes the English born residents. Even those from Sussex.

At the moment; yes.

While Scotland remains in the UK; yes.

But if Scotland leaves the UK; no.

You want it all; independence from the UK but retain the benefits of being part of the UK!

This is the core of your misunderstanding writ large.

I didn't say that all future Scottish residents would be entitled to full use of UK NIC related facilities. I said that the people who have paid in since 1947 and forward are entitled to see their NIC honoured. The UK government knows that.

So, for the purpose of clarity, if we get Independence in March 2016, a school leaver that year will only pay into the Scottish NIC pool. They will have no call on UK facilities. My point is clear - current contributions must be, and will be honoured.

[Basil B]

It will be a bog blow to the UK if the Scots bail out.

Toilets will never be in the equation........ ....................

Your tacking the p1$$...

[wigantojapan]

Another common thread and up to date...Debate what debate,,Question what question..public meeting,,silence of the lambs...https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=474124906066523&set=a.178361088976241.61531.174987595980257&type=1

[wigantojapan]

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/news/278206-leeds-east-labour-mp-george-mudie-gives-backing-to-yes-campaign/

[wigantojapan]

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/9292-colonial-and-corrupt-times-up-for-bbc-scotland

Colonial and Corrupt – Time’s up for BBC Scotland

THURSDAY, 05 JUNE 2014 22:22

37 COMMENTS

By G.A.Ponsonby

President Obama has spoken; the USA made a tragic mistake when it fought off colonial rule over 200 years ago. America wants to rejoin the self-styled 'greatest Union on earth'.

OK, not quite, but what an interesting question it would have been to the US President – why did they leave the UK when it was (then) a 100 year old success story?

[7by7]

<snip>

Every Scottish resident that has paid into the UK NIC system is entitled to the benefits accrued. That includes the no voters. That includes the English born residents. Even those from Sussex.

At the moment; yes.

While Scotland remains in the UK; yes.

But if Scotland leaves the UK; no.

You want it all; independence from the UK but retain the benefits of being part of the UK!

This is the core of your misunderstanding writ large.

I didn't say that all future Scottish residents would be entitled to full use of UK NIC related facilities. I said that the people who have paid in since 1947 and forward are entitled to see their NIC honoured. The UK government knows that.

So, for the purpose of clarity, if we get Independence in March 2016, a school leaver that year will only pay into the Scottish NIC pool. They will have no call on UK facilities. My point is clear - current contributions must be, and will be honoured.

There is no point, as I have already said, in arguing this point any further with you or wigantojapanviagoogle.

Both of you are showing that you do not understand how the NI system works.

But I will ask you a question.

You say that anyone who has previously paid NICs since 1947 is entitled to 'see their NIC honoured.' Yet British citizens who have paid NICs for many years and now live outside the UK do not have full access to the NHS and are treated the same as all other non UK residents.

That is the situation now; why should residents of an independent Scotland, who will have chosen to leave the UK, be treated any differently to British citizens who have chosen to leave the UK and live abroad?

[wigantojapan]

<snip>

Every Scottish resident that has paid into the UK NIC system is entitled to the benefits accrued. That includes the no voters. That includes the English born residents. Even those from Sussex.

At the moment; yes.

While Scotland remains in the UK; yes.

But if Scotland leaves the UK; no.

You want it all; independence from the UK but retain the benefits of being part of the UK!

This is the core of your misunderstanding writ large.

I didn't say that all future Scottish residents would be entitled to full use of UK NIC related facilities. I said that the people who have paid in since 1947 and forward are entitled to see their NIC honoured. The UK government knows that.

So, for the purpose of clarity, if we get Independence in March 2016, a school leaver that year will only pay into the Scottish NIC pool. They will have no call on UK facilities. My point is clear - current contributions must be, and will be honoured.

There is no point, as I have already said, in arguing this point any further with you or wigantojapanviagoogle.

Both of you are showing that you do not understand how the NI system works.

But I will ask you a question.

You say that anyone who has previously paid NICs since 1947 is entitled to 'see their NIC honoured.' Yet British citizens who have paid NICs for many years and now live outside the UK do not have full access to the NHS and are treated the same as all other non UK residents.

That is the situation now; why should residents of an independent Scotland, who will have chosen to leave the UK, be treated any differently to British citizens who have chosen to leave the UK and live abroad?

Excuse me it is the sussex man yourself who changed the question and brought in the NIC

The original question was about NHS

You still clearly do not understand the basics of that no matter how many times i have told you

You have clearly stated the UKNHS

IS THERE A UK NHS NO

IS there a SCOTLAND NHS yes

Who pays for Scotland NHS Scottish parliament

Who pays for the Scottish residents treatment Scottish parliement.

does the English NHS pay for Scottish patients treatment NO

Do Scottish patients get free treatment in England No.

Now you have went onto another topic because you didnt want tosee the truth in the original question

Great ormond themselves said that as did the video link,,so you diversed onto the issue of non residents

Scottish citizens will still be citizens of Britain that has already been said by cabinet ministers in Westminister,,,They are not non resident..

Now you will tell me Britain and the Uk is the same and Scotland wanting all the benefits etcetc

[Pattszero]

<snip>

Every Scottish resident that has paid into the UK NIC system is entitled to the benefits accrued. That includes the no voters. That includes the English born residents. Even those from Sussex.

At the moment; yes.

While Scotland remains in the UK; yes.

But if Scotland leaves the UK; no.

You want it all; independence from the UK but retain the benefits of being part of the UK!

This is the core of your misunderstanding writ large.

I didn't say that all future Scottish residents would be entitled to full use of UK NIC related facilities. I said that the people who have paid in since 1947 and forward are entitled to see their NIC honoured. The UK government knows that.

So, for the purpose of clarity, if we get Independence in March 2016, a school leaver that year will only pay into the Scottish NIC pool. They will have no call on UK facilities. My point is clear - current contributions must be, and will be honoured.

There is no point, as I have already said, in arguing this point any further with you or wigantojapanviagoogle.

Both of you are showing that you do not understand how the NI system works.

But I will ask you a question.

You say that anyone who has previously paid NICs since 1947 is entitled to 'see their NIC honoured.' Yet British citizens who have paid NICs for many years and now live outside the UK do not have full access to the NHS and are treated the same as all other non UK residents.

That is the situation now; why should residents of an independent Scotland, who will have chosen to leave the UK, be treated any differently to British citizens who have chosen to leave the UK and live abroad?

I know plenty of people who have their UK pension fully funded while living abroad. Nothing special in that.

[wigantojapan]

someone is mixing into the equation citizenship and residency and it certainly isnt me...the sussex man does have form about taking 2 completely different aspects and splicing them together as i stated before.

show me anywhere where it says NHS UK

you obviously like a lot of things have taken the NHS national to mean NHS UK

so i will ask you what does NHS mean?

also what does NHS Scotland mean?

[7by7]

Pattszero,

British pensioners who live abroad do receive their state pensions; although many, including those living in Thailand, do not get the annual increases!

There is a long running thread on TV about the injustice of that.

However, we are talking about NHS treatment; not pensions.

You stated that should Scotland become independent then Scottish residents will still be entitled to NHS treatment in the UK as they have previously paid NICs.

I have a different view and asked why they should be treated any differently to all other non UK residents; including British citizens who have paid NICs but now live outside the UK.

Like the Google fan from Wigan, you have dodged the question, and I suspect will continue to do so because you know the answer and don't care for it.

[Pattszero]

Pattszero,

British pensioners who live abroad do receive their state pensions; although many, including those living in Thailand, do not get the annual increases!

There is a long running thread on TV about the injustice of that.

However, we are talking about NHS treatment; not pensions.

You stated that should Scotland become independent then Scottish residents will still be entitled to NHS treatment in the UK as they have previously paid NICs.

I have a different view and asked why they should be treated any differently to all other non UK residents; including British citizens who have paid NICs but now live outside the UK.

Like the Google fan from Wigan, you have dodged the question, and I suspect will continue to do so because you know the answer and don't care for it.

First of all, Scotland is not Thailand.

Secondly - I clearly answered. I said that existing contributors from 1947 on will have a call on UK resources - I said that the school leaver of 2016 will not.

I could not have been any clearer.

[jpinx]

<snip>

This is the core of your misunderstanding writ large.

I didn't say that all future Scottish residents would be entitled to full use of UK NIC related facilities. I said that the people who have paid in since 1947 and forward are entitled to see their NIC honoured. The UK government knows that.

So, for the purpose of clarity, if we get Independence in March 2016, a school leaver that year will only pay into the Scottish NIC pool. They will have no call on UK facilities. My point is clear - current contributions must be, and will be honoured.

There is no point, as I have already said, in arguing this point any further with you or wigantojapanviagoogle.

Both of you are showing that you do not understand how the NI system works.

But I will ask you a question.

You say that anyone who has previously paid NICs since 1947 is entitled to 'see their NIC honoured.' Yet British citizens who have paid NICs for many years and now live outside the UK do not have full access to the NHS and are treated the same as all other non UK residents.

That is the situation now; why should residents of an independent Scotland, who will have chosen to leave the UK, be treated any differently to British citizens who have chosen to leave the UK and live abroad?

I know plenty of people who have their UK pension fully funded while living abroad. Nothing special in that.

+++++++++++++

Tell that to 7by7

Many people paid in for many years and then left UK. They can still get a partial pension. There is no point in muddying the waters by confusing Scottish independence with some that is different to the rules that already exist.

[wigantojapan]

the sussex man muddling the waters who would have believed

well hes swimming with sharks now,,,

[7by7]

someone is mixing into the equation citizenship and residency and it certainly isnt me

It is not me; I have said all along that entitlement to NHS treatment in the UK is based upon residency, not citizenship.

Non British citizens who are resident in the UK are entitled to NHS treatment; non UK residents, including British citizens who are non UK residents, are not.

NHS stands for National Health Service.

NHS Scotland, like NHS England, is part of that; the UK's National Health Service; funded from the Treasury.

But if Scotland leaves the UK, it also leaves the UK's National Health Service and NHS Scotland will lose it's funding from the UK Treasury.

Or do you want the taxpayers of the UK to continue contributing to the funding of the health service of an independent Scotland?

I suspect that you do!

[jpinx]

Pattszero,

British pensioners who live abroad do receive their state pensions; although many, including those living in Thailand, do not get the annual increases!

There is a long running thread on TV about the injustice of that.

However, we are talking about NHS treatment; not pensions.

You stated that should Scotland become independent then Scottish residents will still be entitled to NHS treatment in the UK as they have previously paid NICs.

I have a different view and asked why they should be treated any differently to all other non UK residents; including British citizens who have paid NICs but now live outside the UK.

Like the Google fan from Wigan, you have dodged the question, and I suspect will continue to do so because you know the answer and don't care for it.

+

++++++++++++++++++

NHS treatment does not depend on National Insurance Contributions. To qualify for "FREE" NHS treatment you have to be a UK resident and on a doctors list, otherwise you need to be a resident of a country with a reciprocal agreement such as Spain or Germany, or SCOTLAND -- where the NHS Scotland already pay for treatment to Scottish residents in England.

Please stick to the facts.

P.S. I really *HATE* this forum's software......

Edited June 7, 2014 by jpinx

[wigantojapan]

<snip>

This is the core of your misunderstanding writ large.

I didn't say that all future Scottish residents would be entitled to full use of UK NIC related facilities. I said that the people who have paid in since 1947 and forward are entitled to see their NIC honoured. The UK government knows that.

So, for the purpose of clarity, if we get Independence in March 2016, a school leaver that year will only pay into the Scottish NIC pool. They will have no call on UK facilities. My point is clear - current contributions must be, and will be honoured.

There is no point, as I have already said, in arguing this point any further with you or wigantojapanviagoogle.

Both of you are showing that you do not understand how the NI system works.

But I will ask you a question.

You say that anyone who has previously paid NICs since 1947 is entitled to 'see their NIC honoured.' Yet British citizens who have paid NICs for many years and now live outside the UK do not have full access to the NHS and are treated the same as all other non UK residents.

That is the situation now; why should residents of an independent Scotland, who will have chosen to leave the UK, be treated any differently to British citizens who have chosen to leave the UK and live abroad?

I know plenty of people who have their UK pension fully funded while living abroad. Nothing special in that.

+++++++++++++

Tell that to 7by7

Many people paid in for many years and then left UK. They can still get a partial pension. There is no point in muddying the waters by confusing Scottish independence with some that is different to the rules that already exist.

Again the sussex man introduces residents when it should be citizens with regards to the Scottish people living in Scotland which he has so feverishly been going on about haha....oh well the better together dinnae ken hehawcampaign

[7by7]

Pattszero,

British pensioners who live abroad do receive their state pensions; although many, including those living in Thailand, do not get the annual increases!

There is a long running thread on TV about the injustice of that.

However, we are talking about NHS treatment; not pensions.

You stated that should Scotland become independent then Scottish residents will still be entitled to NHS treatment in the UK as they have previously paid NICs.

I have a different view and asked why they should be treated any differently to all other non UK residents; including British citizens who have paid NICs but now live outside the UK.

Like the Google fan from Wigan, you have dodged the question, and I suspect will continue to do so because you know the answer and don't care for it.

First of all, Scotland is not Thailand.

Secondly - I clearly answered. I said that existing contributors from 1947 on will have a call on UK resources - I said that the school leaver of 2016 will not.

I could not have been any clearer.

I know Scotland is not Thailand.

But, you brought up pensions; I attempted to explain the situation regarding them for ex pats.

I asked "You say that anyone who has previously paid NICs since 1947 is entitled to 'see their NIC honoured.' Yet British citizens who have paid NICs for many years and now live outside the UK do not have full access to the NHS and are treated the same as all other non UK residents.

That is the situation now; why should residents of an independent Scotland, who will have chosen to leave the UK, be treated any differently to British citizens who have chosen to leave the UK and live abroad?"

You have not answered the question; you have dodged it.

[wigantojapan]

Pattszero,

British pensioners who live abroad do receive their state pensions; although many, including those living in Thailand, do not get the annual increases!

There is a long running thread on TV about the injustice of that.

However, we are talking about NHS treatment; not pensions.

You stated that should Scotland become independent then Scottish residents will still be entitled to NHS treatment in the UK as they have previously paid NICs.

I have a different view and asked why they should be treated any differently to all other non UK residents; including British citizens who have paid NICs but now live outside the UK.

Like the Google fan from Wigan, you have dodged the question, and I suspect will continue to do so because you know the answer and don't care for it.

NHS treatment does not depend on National Insurance Contributions. To qualify for "FREE" NHS treatment you have to be either a UK resident and on a doctors list, otherwise you need to be a resident of a country with a reciprocal agreement such as Spain or Germany, or SCOTLAND -- where the NHS Scotland already pay for treatment to Scottish residents in England.

Please stick to the facts.

100% correct jpinx Thats what i have been telling him for days..Along alongside spokesperson for the hospital involved with the lies of the no borders video

[Pattszero]

someone is mixing into the equation citizenship and residency and it certainly isnt me

It is not me; I have said all along that entitlement to NHS treatment in the UK is based upon residency, not citizenship.

Non British citizens who are resident in the UK are entitled to NHS treatment; non UK residents, including British citizens who are non UK residents, are not.

NHS stands for National Health Service.

NHS Scotland, like NHS England, is part of that; the UK's National Health Service; funded from the Treasury.

But if Scotland leaves the UK, it also leaves the UK's National Health Service and NHS Scotland will lose it's funding from the UK Treasury.

Or do you want the taxpayers of the UK to continue contributing to the funding of the health service of an independent Scotland?

I suspect that you do!

Who told you that the independent Scottish health service will lose its funding from the treasury? The UK treasury has an obligation to meet the NIC benefits of Scottish residents. They have a choice, they can either provide a lump sum to cover the obligation, ( no chance ) or they can take on a shared responsibility with the Scottish government, ( certainty.)

[Pattszero]

^^ You'll note that every answer I give in this regard uses the phrase "Scottish resident." To once again clarify, I am referring to residents of Scotland, as I mentioned earlier, that includes English-born residents of Scotland. Even people from Sussex.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Pattszero

[jpinx]

I know Scotland is not Thailand.

But, you brought up pensions; I attempted to explain the situation regarding them for ex pats.

I asked "You say that anyone who has previously paid NICs since 1947 is entitled to 'see their NIC honoured.' Yet British citizens who have paid NICs for many years and now live outside the UK do not have full access to the NHS and are treated the same as all other non UK residents.

That is the situation now; why should residents of an independent Scotland, who will have chosen to leave the UK, be treated any differently to British citizens who have chosen to leave the UK and live abroad?"

You have not answered the question; you have dodged it.

First of all, Scotland is not Thailand.

Secondly - I clearly answered. I said that existing contributors from 1947 on will have a call on UK resources - I said that the school leaver of 2016 will not.

I could not have been any clearer.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

7by7 - I respect yourc contributions greatly, but you persist in creating questions about matters which have been answered multiple times. There is NO attempt to give the Scots in an Indepedent Scotland anything more than a UK resident would get while in (for example) germany. Pensions are paid according to contributions made, Healthcare is paid according to the reciprocal agreement between the countries.

Now -- what is the question which is not answered ?

[Pattszero]

Correct.

[7by7]

Scottish residents do not get NHS treatment in the UK because Scotland has a reciprocal arrangement with the UK; they get free treatment because Scotland is part of the UK!

For that same reason residents of England Wales and Northern Ireland get free NHS treatment in Scotland.

If Scotland leaves the UK, then the situation will change.

The reciprocal arrangement with other EU countries jpinx mentions does not cover NHS treatment if the purpose of coming to the UK was to receive that treatment, and to get any treatment over and above initial emergency care an EHIC card is required.

Wigantogoogle.

As said, entitlement to NHS care in the UK is based on residency, not citizenship. If you don't believe me, look it up. Your vast experience with Google will help you find it.

And if you do want to insult me by constant references to my county of residence, please get it right. You'll find it on my profile page.

[7by7]

^^ You'll note that every answer I give in this regard uses the phrase "Scottish resident." To once again clarify, I am referring to residents of Scotland, as I mentioned earlier, that includes English-born residents of Scotland. Even people from Sussex.

We agree on one thing, then.

As I have said all along, entitlement is based upon residency, not citizenship.

Can you know convince you mate from Wigan of that?

[wigantojapan]

NHS stands for NHS ENGLAND get that correct at least though they call them selves national

national in this sense means ENGLAND,

THERE IS NO NHS UK NONE 4 independent bodies.

correct if Scotland becomes independent no money from the Uk treasury

England the RUK will loose the money from Scottish tax payers to build roads around the M25 and the likes

THe NHS SCOTLAND will still pay for Scottish residents treatment in England as they do now

If westminister wants to draw up reciprocal health agreements with any country including Scotland .Thailand they can,,but as we stand these business arrangements are inplace.

[Pattszero]

Scottish residents do not get NHS treatment in the UK because Scotland has a reciprocal arrangement with the UK; they get free treatment because Scotland is part of the UK!

For that same reason residents of England Wales and Northern Ireland get free NHS treatment in Scotland.

If Scotland leaves the UK, then the situation will change.

The reciprocal arrangement with other EU countries jpinx mentions does not cover NHS treatment if the purpose of coming to the UK was to receive that treatment, and to get any treatment over and above initial emergency care an EHIC card is required.

Wigantogoogle.

As said, entitlement to NHS care in the UK is based on residency, not citizenship. If you don't believe me, look it up. Your vast experience with Google will help you find it.

And if you do want to insult me by constant references to my county of residence, please get it right. You'll find it on my profile page.

JPinx answered you a minute ago. Once again, he couldn't have been any clearer.