Bangkok - Descent into chaos

[rct99q]

problem with an election is that Yingluck would be re elected. They have the money to pay for the votes needed. I think most people would like the whole Shinawatra clan out of Thailand for good

But that is exactly what all these protests are trying to achieve.

The end of the Thaksin regime and any involvement with politics and the end of corruption in the election process.

Suthep has said this many times (almost daily).

You speak as though all this country needs to do is remove the Shinawatra family and all will be good in Thailand. But who replaces them? These anti government people are not doing this in the name of democracy. It is to reap the rewards of being in "power" in Thailand.

At least with the current government you know who it is that is fuc&ing everybody over....with Suthep and others ...who knows. But mark these words, they will be as corrupt (or more ) than the current group.

If you seriously believe that the removal of this family will eliminate corruption in the election process you have absolutely no knowledge of Thai politics and should refrain from posting in the future.

[Gandtee]

The only thing a new election will probably achieve is that it will increasing the bargaining power of smaller parties. The slippery eel might even become prime minister again.

God forbid! Was he not the man who said "If you see an Indian and a snake in you path, kill the Indian" It would make a good TV production. 'The return of the War Lords'.

[rjcampbe]

I seen this paying out for votes. It really works up in Isaan. One hundred percent.

I have literally watched it with my own eyes...

[Spare]

"The media must report only news from the PDRC and the general situation, Suthep added."

Just like it is OK to make sure ALL children go to school. I.e. illegal if parent don't sent their kids.

Thailand needs to inform all on the evil of Thaksin, hence it is OK to report only news from the PDRC.

[Centrum]

problem with an election is that Yingluck would be re elected. They have the money to pay for the votes needed. I think most people would like the whole Shinawatra clan out of Thailand for good

But that is exactly what all these protests are trying to achieve.

The end of the Thaksin regime and any involvement with politics and the end of corruption in the election process.

Suthep has said this many times (almost daily).

You speak as though all this country needs to do is remove the Shinawatra family and all will be good in Thailand. But who replaces them? These anti government people are not doing this in the name of democracy. It is to reap the rewards of being in "power" in Thailand.

At least with the current government you know who it is that is fuc&ing everybody over....with Suthep and others ...who knows. But mark these words, they will be as corrupt (or more ) than the current group.

If you seriously believe that the removal of this family will eliminate corruption in the election process you have absolutely no knowledge of Thai politics and should refrain from posting in the future.

One thing is for certain, corruption in Thailand will only get worse if there is no action against the Thaksin clan.

I don't believe for a second that corruption can be eliminated in Thailand. Not even seriously reduced but by attacking one of the highest profile criminals, it might send messages to the others that there is a form of accountability in Thailand.

Chalerm, Red Bull heir, et al.

Thaksin's biggest mistake was his arrogance in 'flipping the bird', so to speak, at the Thai population by firstly, installing his brother-in-law as PM, and then his sister.

[Tolley]

The whole situation is a sad indictment on the political process in Thailand.

It just seems one side of politics refuses to accept the result of elections and thinks it has the god given right to oust the other side.regardless of the social , economic impact.

The consequences of this are of course no rule of law whatsoever and no obligation for any party or group to repsect the prevailng institutions.

I dont buy arguments about vote buying as an excuse because both sides know the game and both sides are equally guilty when it comes to the practice.

The opposition should organise themsevles better and campaign better and win an election on their own merits and stop disrupting the rule of law and order in Thailand because it cant organise themselves properly to win an election.

People should stop blaming Thaksin for all the ills of Thai society and look at why someone like Thaksin was able to entrench himself in power.

The fact is Thailand is and has been a very corrupt society and unless a full reform of all the key institutions is undertaken ie police, army, judiciary, education and political then the door will always be open for unscrupulous operators. I am not sure why anyone thinks things will magically change with a shift in politcal power to another bunch of corrupt individuals.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Tolley

[arnold40844]

I have nothing but respect for a country that's not afraid to stand up to corrupt Public Servants, its just unfortunate that there is no real solution, as always.

A revolution will be like switching to a different brand of baked beans.

[kirk0233]

mostly students, were gathering to protest against the government

This confirms the belief by most on this forum that education in Thailand is lacking. Apparently the students have been taught nothing about Thai history and about those who control thought and speech in Thailand. Fortunately, for an elite like Suthep, they have also been taught nothing about democracy and the constitution or respect for the institutions of democracy; including the office of prime minister, despite perhaps disliking her personally. Instead, they rally around the idea of an unelected council to provide democracy to Thailand. Those who repeat the mantra King Buddhism country should be proud of the ignorance this mantra perpetuates by suggesting that if one element is missing the individual is not Thai. Perhaps it is time for a more inclusive and democratic notion of who a Thai is as well as an honest look at the history of its institutions that have undermined the freedom of the people.

[Morch]

I don't like the fact that I predicted this outcome several weeks ago, as I always felt that the situation would become so dire that YL would have no option but to resign and call for new elections. In any other democracy in the world this would have happened weeks ago, as there is no point in trying to hold on to power when it is clear that a huge proportion of the population is against you.

Fair point. But where are you getting these figures? I've only seen protest numbers in the tens of thousands, versus the 15,744,190 people who voted her in. I don't think there's a reasonable democracy in the world that would throw out an elected leader on those grounds.

Firstly, given that the population of Thailand currently stands at 69.5 million, a vote of almost 15.75 million represents less than 23% support, which is hardly a majority. That indicates that a huge proportion of the population did not vote for her, so there is little need for me to further expand on my earlier statement.

Total population isn't quite the same as total eligible voters, of which you'd have to subtract those who didn't vote and disqualified votes. If memory serves the total number of valid votes (not getting into the vote buying issue), was around 30 million.

[ridkun]

I suspect the coffers will be virtually empty when these villains have all suddenly disappeared only to reappear with their beloved leader in Dubai.

This is basically what I said yesterday while I was discussing the matter with friends. Yingluck is only delaying the inevitable (resign and have an new election) so that the countries coffers can be emptied. If she is so confident that her party would win another election why not just put it to the vote.

The point is that this is not the good timing for PTP. Election means more money to be paid in rural area, while they haven't cashed out from tax money yet as their both mega projects are still on hold.

So insufficient funds to buy votes becomes a legitimate reason to delay elections...wow...

Well, they have to balance income and expense. Every companies do. I could also entertain you guys here by saying that Yingluck would not resign because she has been legitimately elected and as the Prime Minister she won't give up to undemocratic request for the sake of the rule of law and the democracy of her beloved Thailand.

[Sing_Sling]

A lot of rubbish written by a man with no what so ever understanding of how a democracy is functioning, fully in line with Mr Suthep. And a totally disregard and contempt for the 60 or so millions of voters sitting at home, people who have elected the present goverment in to office. We can all have conspiracy teories, but i think we should be careful to voice them so clearly. When the law is broken time and time again i think any elected government has the right under its constitution to defend itself, king and people. The people on the streets now and their leaders have by now broken all rules in the book, and have already given up their right in my opinion to be heard. And when i hear the proclamation of peoples committes to run the country, what comes to mind is Pol Pot, North Korea and the old Soviet Union, they all had and have people committes and we all know the result of that.

First SENSIBLE post I have read in this thread of complete sickos who are supporting criminals that are nothing more than thugs that are breaking every law in the book.

The only way to remove a LEGALLY elected government is to have elections but that know they cannot will just like the past several of them, so the only other way is to take control by force.

I hope Suthep gets whats coming to him.

Sensible in your opinion.

Unfortunately, the PM/DM does not appear to consider resigning or dissolving the house, as her brother has instructed her to cling on to power for as long as possible. If they would, as you say, win again, then why doesn't she go to the people?

Wait for her term to expire - maybe. But how do you remove a government that has acted illegally, refuses to obey the law and cheats parliamentary procedures?

When dealing with criminals, sometimes strong action has to be taken.

Most of the PTP voters I know, nearly all in fact, would not vote PTP were a snap election to be called. They are so incensed at PTP's lies, inept management and the open control and influence of someone who is a criminal fugitive.

You are astoundingly well informed as to the communication between Thaksin and Yingluck - can you please quote verbatim next time as we wouldn't want speculation or pure made-up bullshi! to clog these pages.

. . . and why do you think she should go to the polls again without having served her term? Are you advocating mob rule? Yes, yes . . mob rule is so much better than an oligarchy.

I have nothing but respect for a country that's not afraid to stand up to corrupt Public Servants, its just unfortunate that there is no real solution, as always. A revolution will be like switching to a different brand of baked beans.

Which country are you speaking of?

[Sing_Sling]

I don't like the fact that I predicted this outcome several weeks ago, as I always felt that the situation would become so dire that YL would have no option but to resign and call for new elections. In any other democracy in the world this would have happened weeks ago, as there is no point in trying to hold on to power when it is clear that a huge proportion of the population is against you.

Fair point. But where are you getting these figures? I've only seen protest numbers in the tens of thousands, versus the 15,744,190 people who voted her in. I don't think there's a reasonable democracy in the world that would throw out an elected leader on those grounds.

Firstly, given that the population of Thailand currently stands at 69.5 million, a vote of almost 15.75 million represents less than 23% support, which is hardly a majority. That indicates that a huge proportion of the population did not vote for her, so there is little need for me to further expand on my earlier statement.

Total population isn't quite the same as total eligible voters, of which you'd have to subtract those who didn't vote and disqualified votes. If memory serves the total number of valid votes (not getting into the vote buying issue), was around 30 million.

. . . and another mistake is believing that all those who didn't vote and couldn't vote would have voted for the opposition.

Childish reasoning, indeed, that only those who voted for person/party x support them and all others don't

[connda]

Here we go again. Anarchists for Democracy.

[DGIE]

3 dead. 2 from the pro-government. 1 from the anti

how about the more than 50 others injured?

[Sing_Sling]

Here we go again. Anarchists for Democracy.

Precisely . . . and the intelligentsia who think it's the right way to get there . . . the most amazing of whom are the foreigners

[templedog]

I don't like the fact that I predicted this outcome several weeks ago, as I always felt that the situation would become so dire that YL would have no option but to resign and call for new elections. In any other democracy in the world this would have happened weeks ago, as there is no point in trying to hold on to power when it is clear that a huge proportion of the population is against you.

Unfortunately, this is not a democracy at all, it is an autocracy created by a fugitive criminal who did not have the guts to return to his home country and 'face the music', but instead, felt that he could run the country from afar. Sitting in comfort in Dubai he will no doubt be telling his sister and his other well-paid employees to hang in there because victory is in sight. Sadly, he couldn't be further from the truth...!

What we currently have is a last ditch heavy-handed attempt to use the police to "appease" the crowd, but there is no appeasing this crowd. This government has to fall in order to end this, and the police have to withdraw before we start to see real civil war.

As I've said before, these people are not being paid to be there, they are there because they are passionate about their demand to see real democracy in this country. If TS and YL cannot see this, then they will go down in history as being responsible for the destruction of a once beautiful country.

Indeed. There was no other way this situation could have played out after the milestones of Yingluck's government were laid down. I am referring here to the promotion of Kamronwit (chief of met police) by Thaksin in a Hong Kong hotel room, the siccing of Tarit on Abhisit for premeditated murder charges in a personal capacity( which even a fool could see would not work as Thaksin intended as his own little sis is now a suspected premeditated murderess), the decision to ram through Thaksin's amnesty at 4am, the governments decision to stop respecting court decisions that go against it's own interests. The hideous and systematic corruption surrounding everything they did/do.

You see, by courting anarchy the PTP have again bitten off more than they can chew. It was so predictable, try going back a few weeks, most of the more politically savvy on TVF forecasted exactly this situation resulting. A few members kept to the "it's gone beyond Thaksin, grassroots movement, 2010 mass murder by yellow bla bla bla, and have been proved wrong at every turn.

Sow the wind and ye shall reap the whirlwind.

ABSOLUTELY!!! I couldn't agree more with the both of you....especially GeorgeO. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1064867

[Emdog]

"Firstly, given that the population of Thailand currently stands at 69.5 million, a vote of almost 15.75 million represents less than 23% support, which is hardly a majority. That indicates that a huge proportion of the population did not vote for her, so there is little need for me to further expand on my earlier statement."

I suggest a class in statistics is in order. What, the babies didn't vote for YL? They are part of the 69.5! How about being sensible and looking at percentage of those who actually VOTED voted her in. Looking at total population compared to number that voted for her is pointless, not to mention she was voted in by her party, not directly as in presidental elections. She is Prime Minister, fyi. Her party won 265 out of 500 seats, which simple math indicates is the majority.

Lots of current policies are stupid. There is corruption, just like before, but going into different pockets. If you think the anti government faction is for clean government, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you.

[arnold40844]

I know a few people who voted purely because they were paid to. For me this is a lot worse than a few dodgy real estate deals. The richest groups in Thailand exploiting the poorest with pocket change, maybe there should be a rule around using bribery and blackmail as a re-election strategy.

[Morch]

This might shed a little light about the motivations behind "the great people who fight for democracy and power to the people?" ... is it truly "to the people", or is it "to one single man" who lost his rank due to corruption and other "foggy" activities...

Suthep Thaugsuban (Thai: สุเทพ เทือกสุบรรณ; RTGS: Suthep Thueaksuban, [sù.tʰêːp tʰɯ̂ːak.sù.ban]) (born 7 July 1949, Tha Sathon, Phunphin District, Surat Thani Province) is a Thai politician, and Member of Parliament for Surat Thani province. Until 2011, he was secretary-general of the Democrat Party and deputy prime minister under Abhisit Vejjajiva.

1995 to present corruption scandal

As part of the Sor Por Kor 4-01 (สปก.4-01) land reform scheme, Suthep gave title deeds to 592 plots of land in Khao Sam Liam, Kamala and Nakkerd hills of Phuket province to 489 farmers. It was later found that members of 11 wealthy families in Phuket were among the recipients. Suthep addressed a huge crowd in his Surat Thani constituency a month before a no-confidence debate and called on his supporters to march on Bangkok in the hundreds of thousands to defend his reputation.^[2] The scandal led Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai of the Democrat Party to dissolve the House of Representatives in July 1995 in order to avoid the no-confidence debate.^[3] In subsequent elections, the Chart Thai party won a majority, leading to the downfall of Chuan Leekpai's Democrat Party-led government.

2009 disqualification as MP

In 2009, Suthep was accused of violating the Constitution of Thailand by holding equity in a media firm that had received concessions from the government. Under the 1997 Constitution of Thailand, which Suthep had supported, Members of Parliament are banned from holding stakes in companies which have received government concessions. In July 2009, the Election Commission announced that it would seek a ruling by the Constitutional Court to disqualify Suthep and 12 other Democrat MPs for having allegedly violated the charter. Suthep held a press conference a day later, announcing his decision to resign from Parliament. Suthep's resignation as an MP did not affect his status as Deputy Prime Minister and as a Cabinet member. If his case had been submitted to the Constitution Court, he would have been suspended from duty as Deputy Prime Minister. He insisted that his resignation was not a proof that he had done something wrong but that he was worried about status as Deputy Prime Minister.^[4]

2011 elections

In the general election on 3 July 2011, the Democrats were defeated. Suthep stepped down as the party's secretary-general immediately. When the government of successful Pheu Thai Party-leader Yingluck Shinawatra took office on 9 August, his term as deputy prime minister ended.

WOW, the truth about Suthep's corruption right here in black and white, the thaivisa leftwingers aren't going to like this

I daresay quite a few prominent Thai politicians from whichever party got a similar biography.

Suthep's history is not a secret, but nor is it unique in the context of Thai politics.

Not really following the "leftwingers" remark, as these distinctions do not apply that well to Thailand.

[Just1Voice]

maybe they should do something new in this counry

ONLY PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY PAY TAXES CAN VOTE

so all those poor farmers could no be bought with 500 baht to vote for mr. T

Boy, that's a PURE PAD YELLOW concept for sure.

[Frank James]

Great to see so many deep thinking farangs advocating the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government by fascist hooligans.

[billd766]

I don't like the fact that I predicted this outcome several weeks ago, as I always felt that the situation would become so dire that YL would have no option but to resign and call for new elections. In any other democracy in the world this would have happened weeks ago, as there is no point in trying to hold on to power when it is clear that a huge proportion of the population is against you.

Fair point. But where are you getting these figures? I've only seen protest numbers in the tens of thousands, versus the 15,744,190 people who voted her in. I don't think there's a reasonable democracy in the world that would throw out an elected leader on those grounds.

But what about all the other voters who DIDN'T vote her but voted for all the other parties. What about all the other people who were unable to vote?

Don't they need to be looked after too?

[DGIE]

Here we go again. Anarchists for Democracy.

Who ever seats there is always an opposition.

[anon467367354]

I don't understand this mentality that the government was elected so they can do whatever they want until their term is up.

The point is they want to change the constitution, create a family owned dictatorship, and continue to protect themselves from

their corrupt actions.

I don't believe for a minute that people should stand by and watch the country go to crap just because some people were

"elected" even if through vote buying.

You don't stand by and watch the country go to shit and then try to fix something if you get the chance which may turn out

to be something that can't be fixed.

[wilcopops]

The only thing a new election will probably achieve is that it will increasing the bargaining power of smaller parties. The slippery eel might even become prime minister again.

...and the alternative?

[Bluespunk]

A lot of rubbish written by a man with no what so ever understanding of how a democracy is functioning, fully in line with Mr Suthep. And a totally disregard and contempt for the 60 or so millions of voters sitting at home, people who have elected the present goverment in to office. We can all have conspiracy teories, but i think we should be careful to voice them so clearly. When the law is broken time and time again i think any elected government has the right under its constitution to defend itself, king and people. The people on the streets now and their leaders have by now broken all rules in the book, and have already given up their right in my opinion to be heard. And when i hear the proclamation of peoples committes to run the country, what comes to mind is Pol Pot, North Korea and the old Soviet Union, they all had and have people committes and we all know the result of that.

So what do you do when the govt in power is clearly corrupt, but uses it's position of power to get away with it? When they refuse to accept judicial judgments against them? When they use their stormtroopers to intimidate judges involved in cases they have an interest in? If it uses law enforcement agencies to further it's own causes and interests with no regard to legitimacy and legality? What then? A govt may be elected, but if it then proceeds to rule in a corrupt, incompetent manner, if it drives an agenda that will allow it to retain power for itself and undermines the democratic process, what then? I don't think the current protesters have any clear plan as to what to do apart from authoritarian govt or a military govt, neither of which I support, but they do have legitimate grievances against this incompetent and corrupt govt. As to who has broken all the rules, the reds were as responsible as the anti govt elements for the violence that erupted this weekend.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Bluespunk

[silent]

problem with an election is that Yingluck would be re elected. They have the money to pay for the votes needed. I think most people would like the whole Shinawatra clan out of Thailand for good

I disagree with your point that YL would be re-elected. What this is all about is getting this government out and bringing in an interim administration that would put in place measures to ensure that the Shin clan would never be allowed to take over power again.

After the current government has fallen, it will not be too difficult to convince all parties once the full extent of the rape of this country is revealed.

I suspect the coffers will be virtually empty when these villains have all suddenly disappeared only to reappear with their beloved leader in Dubai.

Where is YL right now....?!

What an excellent way to prove how "We stand for truth, justice and the American way"...........oooh how politically in correct....................That' s "We stand for truth and justice the Thai way"

Edited December 2, 2013 by silent

[Rimmer]

Personal attack removed

[arnold40844]

You cannot seriously be branding every single protester as a fascist hooligan? Most are professional office workers and students.

Great to see so many deep thinking farangs advocating the violent overthrow of a legitimately elected government by fascist hooligans.

[DGIE]

Even if Suthep group will be successful in ousting Yingluck, I don't believe there will be peace thereafter.

How can a country be governed by not elected people? Let the people decide by voting.

Number of protesters cannot justify the number in whole Thailand.

Before Yingluck, it was Abhisit. Abhisit is an opposition. Opposition also protested. Now, Yingluck, it's the same problem