Non-EU citizens will be able to work in Britain after Bulgarian restrictions lifted

[mopar71]

Non-EU citizens coming to the UK to work won't be nearly the problem that the tens of thousands, if not more, Roma will be.

[7by7]

If they're working what's the problem? They'll pay tax and contribute to the economy just as the Poles and other EU citizends have done.

Depends which jobs they take. What do our unemployed do? Move to Eastern Europe?

If British people took the jobs, they wouldn't be there for EEA migrants to take!

A short while ago I was talking to someone high up in the street cleaning department of a large London Borough and I asked him why most of his street cleaners were Poles.

He replied that they all were; because British people wouldn't take the job!

If they paid more for these jobs I am sure more Brits would take them

Councils must, of course, pay at least the minimum wage for these jobs.

True, this does mean that certain British people would be better off not working that taking one, but that's not the fault of EEA migrants.

But these jobs are available to British citizens and the myth of EEA migrants stealing jobs from British people is just that; a myth. The jobs are there if Brits want them. My associate at the London Borough tells me that the main reason for Brits refusing the job isn't the money, it's because they consider sweeping the road to be beneath them.

MJP is, of course, correct that large sums of public money are spent on welfare in one form or another; and the vast majority of people receiving that money are British.

[MJP]

^^ If it paid enough, I'd sweep streets. It's not beneath me. I'd sooner do that than have the stresses of large development project management.

Potter around all day with a broom saying hello to the OAP's in the park. To be honest it sounds idyllic.

[7by7]

^^^^^

MJP, I would rather sweep the streets than be unemployed.

Unfortunately large numbers of our fellow citizens disagree.

[sirineou]

If they paid more for these jobs I am sure more Brits would take them

Councils can't pay more for these jobs because the budget is eaten up by welfare. Had a council officer in the UK tell me this. He was quite open about it and scathing of the welfare state.

That does not negate the fact that if it paid more Brits would do it.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if these jobs paid more there will be less need for welfare.

[MJP]

^^^^^

MJP, I would rather sweep the streets than be unemployed.

Unfortunately large numbers of our fellow citizens disagree.

Last time I returned to Blighty, mid-2011, I took a graduate level position for six months. There was nothing else available. I hadn't earned such little money since I graduated in 1996!!!! Trouble is then they take the pi$$ and make you PM-by-proxy and no uplift and no bonus, so at the end of the "probationary period" (like I'm a convicted criminal or something) and a real job was offered I took the one paying four times that in London with another firm (they've been pissed off ever since). But then there's no point in that either because you pay most of it in tax.

From now on, I'm going to charge higher day rates, get up to the upper tax threshold and take the rest of the year off. Hell, I might just sweep the streets instead.

I've never been on benefits, wouldn't know how, but I'd like a pension someday if I make it that far.

[7by7]

If they paid more for these jobs I am sure more Brits would take them

Councils can't pay more for these jobs because the budget is eaten up by welfare. Had a council officer in the UK tell me this. He was quite open about it and scathing of the welfare state.

That does not negate the fact that if it paid more Brits would do it.

Perhaps, just perhaps, if these jobs paid more there will be less need for welfare.

As I have already said, from what I have been told by a person who is responsible for employing these workers it's very rarely the wages that put British people off; it's usually because they consider such 'menial' jobs beneath them.

[sustento]

^^^^^

MJP, I would rather sweep the streets than be unemployed.

Unfortunately large numbers of our fellow citizens disagree.

Last time I returned to Blighty, mid-2011, I took a graduate level position for six months. There was nothing else available. I hadn't earned such little money since I graduated in 1996!!!! Trouble is then they take the pi$$ and make you PM-by-proxy and no uplift and no bonus, so at the end of the "probationary period" (like I'm a convicted criminal or something) and a real job was offered I took the one paying four times that in London with another firm (they've been pissed off ever since). But then there's no point in that either because you pay most of it in tax.

From now on, I'm going to charge higher day rates, get up to the upper tax threshold and take the rest of the year off. Hell, I might just sweep the streets instead.

I'm sure that turning to at 6 in the morning in the middle of winter will be a bundle of fun

[sirineou]

If they paid more for these jobs I am sure more Brits would take them

Councils must, of course, pay at least the minimum wage for these jobs.

True, this does mean that certain British people would be better off not working that taking one, but that's not the fault of EEA migrants.

But these jobs are available to British citizens and the myth of EEA migrants stealing jobs from British people is just that; a myth. The jobs are there if Brits want them. My associate at the London Borough tells me that the main reason for Brits refusing the job isn't the money, it's because they consider sweeping the road to be beneath them.

MJP is, of course, correct that large sums of public money are spent on welfare in one form or another; and the vast majority of people receiving that money are British.

You obviously don't understand economics

please refer to my first post on page one, and I quote:

"increasing the numbers of the work-force with workers willing to take lower wages and work longer hours,

while not expanding the available jobs to accommodate these new workers, will certainly have a downward pull on wages."

economics 101

if the foreign workers were not available, and Brits would not take these jobs for minimum wage, there will be two choices

A) do not clean the streets

b ) Pay more

Paying more will have some other positive results,

A) it will increase tax revenues

b ) increase living standards

c) increase consumption and expand the economy

d) reduce welfare rolls , thus freeing funds to pay higher wages.

Edited January 1, 2014 by sirineou

[MJP]

^^^^^

MJP, I would rather sweep the streets than be unemployed.

Unfortunately large numbers of our fellow citizens disagree.

Last time I returned to Blighty, mid-2011, I took a graduate level position for six months. There was nothing else available. I hadn't earned such little money since I graduated in 1996!!!! Trouble is then they take the pi$$ and make you PM-by-proxy and no uplift and no bonus, so at the end of the "probationary period" (like I'm a convicted criminal or something) and a real job was offered I took the one paying four times that in London with another firm (they've been pissed off ever since). But then there's no point in that either because you pay most of it in tax.

From now on, I'm going to charge higher day rates, get up to the upper tax threshold and take the rest of the year off. Hell, I might just sweep the streets instead.

I'm sure that turning to at 6 in the morning in the middle of winter will be a bundle of fun

Start site at 6am and finish usually around 10pm. Then sleep in a portacabin or derelict existing building in freezing conditions. If I've gone anywhere for the weekend, I start back late Sunday evening and drive for hours and then sleep in the car for a couple of hours before pulling a 14 hour day of hell. Seriously, done it for years, nearly two decades actually.

Anyway, more from Nigel Farage . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNr3fXXK92s

Edited January 1, 2014 by MJP

[Wat dee]

Thank You UK !!

BR,

Rest of the European "Union"

[folium]

It is a monumental blunder,

increasing the numbers of the work-force with workers willing to take lower wages and work longer hours,

while not expanding the available jobs to accommodate these new workers, will certainly have a downward pull on wages.

The only blunder is the classic one that you have walked into.

try googling the "Lump of Labour Fallacy" for enlightenment.

If there are only a fixed number of jobs, why not make people retire at 40 or 30?

http://www.economist.com/node/21547263

[zydeco]

I think this is wonderful news. It is an opportunity for Britain to gain more diversity and enjoy vibrant new cultures. Just think of all the great new cuisine that will now be on offer, too. And more people driving up the population so the UK can out produce Germany and be the most competitive country in the EU in terms of salaries and providing a good climate for business, banking, and capital formation for the job providing class. Paradise is right around the corner!

[tragickingdom]

Stupidity rules. 1. Rumanians and Bulgarians are EU citizens. 2. They will be able to work in any EU country not only Britain. As far as I know GB has duly signed the agreements. So why are all this politicians crying crocodile tears? First signing a treaty and than complaining? Isn't this what the Brits want? a race to the bottom? The English do not give a rats ass about their poor an uneducated. That is why they opt out of the social treaties of the EU. No decent minimum wage, no cap on working hours etc. So they must be thrilled that these NEW EU citizens and not NON-EU citizens may screw up the wages of the people at the bottom a bit more.

[folium]

I think this is wonderful news. It is an opportunity for Britain to gain more diversity and enjoy vibrant new cultures. Just think of all the great new cuisine that will now be on offer, too. And more people driving up the population so the UK can out produce Germany and be the most competitive country in the EU in terms of salaries and providing a good climate for business, banking, and capital formation for the job providing class. Paradise is right around the corner!

And the funny thing is how well exactly that scenario has worked for the USA over the last couple of centuries....

[Trouble]

Of course it is always interesting to understand why with the importation of cheap labor the requirement for social services always continues to rise. Everywhere a large influx of people occurs there is an increase in social services spending which becomes a larger percentage of the budget. The taxes collected of the new immigrants never supports the services they need. That's why municipalities, state/provincial governments and national governments are constantly in a bind to keep basic services, i.e. fire, police, roads, sanitation, etc functioning when having to shift monies to social services. Sounds good when the first generation of immigrants will work at low wages but watch out for the second generation who won't. What caused all the riots in France a few years back? Discontent in not getting a piece of the pie by the second/younger generation. Time will tell but my take is that this massive migration taking place is changing the endemic culture of each place and creating a mess. No, I am not a bigot!

[MJP]

I think this is wonderful news. It is an opportunity for Britain to gain more diversity and enjoy vibrant new cultures. Just think of all the great new cuisine that will now be on offer, too. And more people driving up the population so the UK can out produce Germany and be the most competitive country in the EU in terms of salaries and providing a good climate for business, banking, and capital formation for the job providing class. Paradise is right around the corner!

And the funny thing is how well exactly that scenario has worked for the USA over the last couple of centuries....

It's actually not fair on a lot of immigrants to open the door like this.

I had Nigerian security guards on some sites in the UK. One evening I asked one of them about coming to the UK and what their thoughts were after say, two weeks of being here. "Disappointment", was the answer. Then I got told a whole raft of Dickensian horror stories regaling how families had moved to the UK to better their lives only to 1. end up living in deeper poverty and worse housing conditions than from whence they came, and 2. being economically trapped in this mire, no longer having the means to get home, and 3. in some cases families being separated for years because of point 2.

Add to this, is it fair to take other countries people? Many countries have the demographic time bomb problem, skills and labour shortages and in taking these people are we not stunting the growth, development and prosperity of these other nations?

Edited January 1, 2014 by MJP

[7by7]

Something no one has mentioned yet is that the Telegraph headline, hence the title of this topic, is extremely misleading.

Non EU (and EEA) citizens can already work in the UK if they have the appropriate visa, and have been able to for many, many years. This includes

• students,
• PBS migrants,
• spouses and other family members of British citizens.

If we ignore that, the people the Telegraph, and others, are getting so hot and bothered about are not non EU citizens, they are people who have, for one reason or another, been granted Bulgarian or Romanian citizenship.

Reading the article, it appears that the Bulgarian attitude towards who has Bulgarian citizenship is very similar to the Irish one.

Which is relevant because it is fair to say that the largest single source of EEA migration into the UK is from the Republic of Ireland; and this table seems to support that view.

I've nothing against the Irish, they have been coming to live and work in the UK since Irish independence (I wont count those who came before as they were, of course, British citizens); long before the formation of the EEC and the freedom of movement rules.

It is true that in the 1950s boarding houses would often have signs in the window saying "No dogs, No Blacks, No Irish" but those days are long gone.

I only hope that the similar racist attitude displayed by some towards Eastern Europeans goes the same way.

[folium]

I think this is wonderful news. It is an opportunity for Britain to gain more diversity and enjoy vibrant new cultures. Just think of all the great new cuisine that will now be on offer, too. And more people driving up the population so the UK can out produce Germany and be the most competitive country in the EU in terms of salaries and providing a good climate for business, banking, and capital formation for the job providing class. Paradise is right around the corner!

And the funny thing is how well exactly that scenario has worked for the USA over the last couple of centuries....

It's actually not fair on a lot of immigrants to open the door like this.

I had Nigerian security guards on some sites in the UK. One evening I asked one of them about coming to the UK and what their thoughts were after say, two weeks of being here. "Disappointment", was the answer. Then I got told a whole raft of Dickensian horror stories regaling how families had moved to the UK to better their lives only to 1. end up living in deeper poverty and worse housing conditions than from whence they came, and 2. being economically trapped in this mire, no longer having the means to get home, and 3. in some cases families being separated for years because of point 2.

Add to this, is it fair to take other countries people? Many countries have the demographic time bomb problem, skills and labour shortages and in taking these people are we not stunting the growth, development and prosperity of these other nations?

You could have had the same conversation with migrants from almost any country at almost anytime in history. Illusion meets reality usually involves a train wreck to some degree. Often it is the second or even third generation that really reaps the benefit of the new location. Early European settlers in Americas, Australia etc

Interesting that you mention Nigeria in your example. By the end of this century Nigeria is set to have a population of some 730 million (far ahead of the US in 4th place globally with 430m) in a country only a tad larger than Texas. While Nigeria is blessed with vast hydrocarbon reserves the theft of literally hundreds of billions of national wealth over the last 4 decades by its rulers is an issue that is unlikely to abate anytime soon. This means that more and more Nigerians will seek better opportunities overseas.

[MJP]

I think this is wonderful news. It is an opportunity for Britain to gain more diversity and enjoy vibrant new cultures. Just think of all the great new cuisine that will now be on offer, too. And more people driving up the population so the UK can out produce Germany and be the most competitive country in the EU in terms of salaries and providing a good climate for business, banking, and capital formation for the job providing class. Paradise is right around the corner!

And the funny thing is how well exactly that scenario has worked for the USA over the last couple of centuries....

It's actually not fair on a lot of immigrants to open the door like this.

I had Nigerian security guards on some sites in the UK. One evening I asked one of them about coming to the UK and what their thoughts were after say, two weeks of being here. "Disappointment", was the answer. Then I got told a whole raft of Dickensian horror stories regaling how families had moved to the UK to better their lives only to 1. end up living in deeper poverty and worse housing conditions than from whence they came, and 2. being economically trapped in this mire, no longer having the means to get home, and 3. in some cases families being separated for years because of point 2.

Add to this, is it fair to take other countries people? Many countries have the demographic time bomb problem, skills and labour shortages and in taking these people are we not stunting the growth, development and prosperity of these other nations?

You could have had the same conversation with migrants from almost any country at almost anytime in history. Illusion meets reality usually involves a train wreck to some degree. Often it is the second or even third generation that really reaps the benefit of the new location. Early European settlers in Americas, Australia etc

Interesting that you mention Nigeria in your example. By the end of this century Nigeria is set to have a population of some 730 million (far ahead of the US in 4th place globally with 430m) in a country only a tad larger than Texas. While Nigeria is blessed with vast hydrocarbon reserves the theft of literally hundreds of billions of national wealth over the last 4 decades by its rulers is an issue that is unlikely to abate anytime soon. This means that more and more Nigerians will seek better opportunities overseas.

I don't blame them. Was going to be posted out to Nigeria years ago by the German firm I worked for. It was to clean up after that petrochemical transfer pipe blew up and killed an entire village of people (they'd been tapping into it, can't blame them for that either to be honest).

A friend who'd recently retired as MD of Balfour Nuclear actually stopped me. "No, you're not going there." He'd been out there as director of a large European waste management firm to sort out Nigeria's waste problems. The stories he told were beyond the comprehension of the civilized mind.

[sustento]

^^^^^

MJP, I would rather sweep the streets than be unemployed.

Unfortunately large numbers of our fellow citizens disagree.

Last time I returned to Blighty, mid-2011, I took a graduate level position for six months. There was nothing else available. I hadn't earned such little money since I graduated in 1996!!!! Trouble is then they take the pi$$ and make you PM-by-proxy and no uplift and no bonus, so at the end of the "probationary period" (like I'm a convicted criminal or something) and a real job was offered I took the one paying four times that in London with another firm (they've been pissed off ever since). But then there's no point in that either because you pay most of it in tax.

From now on, I'm going to charge higher day rates, get up to the upper tax threshold and take the rest of the year off. Hell, I might just sweep the streets instead.

I'm sure that turning to at 6 in the morning in the middle of winter will be a bundle of fun

Start site at 6am and finish usually around 10pm. Then sleep in a portacabin or derelict existing building in freezing conditions. If I've gone anywhere for the weekend, I start back late Sunday evening and drive for hours and then sleep in the car for a couple of hours before pulling a 14 hour day of hell. Seriously, done it for years, nearly two decades actually.

For £6.31 an hour?

[MJP]

^^ That job I mentioned in 2011 was £22k a year, pro-rata on a six month temporary contract. Six days a week, sometimes seven and averaging 70 hours a week - no overtime. Oh and the on-site accommodation was an unheated office building which hadn't been used in years with only cold running water. This was in the depths of an Oxfordshire winter. Just to add I had to supply the bed!

Dunno what that works out to be, but not a lot.

When needs must. Remember, many jobs in the private sector don't have unions or much employment protection, that's all a myth.

Edited January 1, 2014 by MJP

[JoeLing]

If they're working what's the problem? They'll pay tax and contribute to the economy just as the Poles and other EU citizends have done.

Depends which jobs they take. What do our unemployed do? Move to Eastern Europe?

No don't be silly man

They educate their children how to get to scavenge the most of our social system.

I guarantee you, in order to achieve that, you need at least two generations of

British experience to do so. Absolute no chance as a genuine unemployed

British worker who used to pay tax until unemployed or for any foreigner who

enters the UK for the first time.

An average British worker working his 45 hours per week plus numerous overtime

will be worse off then the average British unemployed person (mostly doing the

odd, regular cash in hand job) who knows how to get all kind of benefits - benefits

paid by his neighbour.

Now if you're British, are unemployed and subsequently have 7 children, you will

definitely better of then the average Doctor or a GP working in a hospital, maybe,

just maybe even better off then the average Brit living here in Thailand

BUT I suppose it's easier to blame foreigners then ones own kind.

[GAZZPA]

One of the many reasons why I left England to live here. The whole country has been sinking into a quagmire for at least 10 years now. That video is awesome !

Rubbish. Every country is changing and it is a "global" fact that most countries (there are a few exceptions) have many more foreigners in them then previous generations. The world is smaller and people are working abroad due to global trading and manufacturing.

As each country allows foreigners to work in their country there will always be people like you who see this a negative thing, sure there are downsides but what about the upsides? For example more taxpayers in the country, (I am sure I pay much more tax then the average Thai for example), new skills and shared learning, stronger trade agreements and basically support for the countries growth. Have you thought of those? Seems not..

It is also ironic that as you complain about the influx on foreigners in the the UK, which you site as one of your reasons for leaving, you have actually moved abroad yourself and plonked yourself in Thailand. It's hypocritical, it's a brave new world, get used to it, try and accept it because it's not going to change.

When the government is paying money printing leaflets in Polish language instructing them how to claim money on the dole meanwhile ignoring much more important things and claiming there is no money to pay for them, you know there is something wrong. I have no problem with foreigners as long as they don't try to chest the system. Don't try and pick a fight with me as I am not interested. Save your vitriolic speeches for someone else who gives a crap...There are many more important reasons why I left but this was one small part of it.

Why is voicing my opinion picking a fight with you? I happen to think that the UK is still a great country which contradicts your view, there are problems yes but what country doesn't have problems. You are in Thailand i assume, so no need to list the problems here but clearly there are many.

Anyway, I do agree with you in that I don't want anyone cheating the system either and the government is going to have to tackle that if they want to stay in power. The point is that migration is here to stay whether you like it or not.

In future if you don't want to get involved in the debates on here because you don't give a crap then don't bother posting.

[GAZZPA]

If they're working what's the problem? They'll pay tax and contribute to the economy just as the Poles and other EU citizends have done.

Depends which jobs they take. What do our unemployed do? Move to Eastern Europe?

No don't be silly man

They educate their children how to get to scavenge the most of our social system.

I guarantee you, in order to achieve that, you need at least two generations of

British experience to do so. Absolute no chance as a genuine unemployed

British worker who used to pay tax until unemployed or for any foreigner who

enters the UK for the first time.

An average British worker working his 45 hours per week plus numerous overtime

will be worse off then the average British unemployed person (mostly doing the

odd, regular cash in hand job) who knows how to get all kind of benefits - benefits

paid by his neighbour.

Now if you're British, are unemployed and subsequently have 7 children, you will

definitely better of then the average Doctor or a GP working in a hospital, maybe,

just maybe even better off then the average Brit living here in Thailand

BUT I suppose it's easier to blame foreigners then ones own kind.

I have heard this so many times now. I have spent most of my life living and working in the UK (up until the last 4 years where I have been working in Asia.) During my time in the UK I knew very few people out of work, truly, for most of my life I rarely met people who were unemployed and if they were it was a short space of time between roles.

Yes, there are some people scamming the system but it is nothing compared to the people who don't. Also, the foreigners coming into the UK mostly work not claim benefits.

This is such an old argument now that has no real merit, it's just a poor attempt as scaremongering based on nothing more then guess work.

Basically, no one wants to be out of work. Everyone wants to be working and those that do not are the exceptions. There are many contradictions about the UK,, THE polish are taking the building jobs, the foreigners are scamming benefits, the foreigners are only doing low paid service industry work that no one else wants to do. etc, etc,, all are nothing more then attack of the foreigners really.

[sustento]

If they're working what's the problem? They'll pay tax and contribute to the economy just as the Poles and other EU citizends have done.

Depends which jobs they take. What do our unemployed do? Move to Eastern Europe?

No don't be silly man

They educate their children how to get to scavenge the most of our social system.

I guarantee you, in order to achieve that, you need at least two generations of

British experience to do so. Absolute no chance as a genuine unemployed

British worker who used to pay tax until unemployed or for any foreigner who

enters the UK for the first time.

An average British worker working his 45 hours per week plus numerous overtime

will be worse off then the average British unemployed person (mostly doing the

odd, regular cash in hand job) who knows how to get all kind of benefits - benefits

paid by his neighbour.

Now if you're British, are unemployed and subsequently have 7 children, you will

definitely better of then the average Doctor or a GP working in a hospital, maybe,

just maybe even better off then the average Brit living here in Thailand

BUT I suppose it's easier to blame foreigners then ones own kind.

The average wage for a GP £100,000 a year. Jobseeker's allowance is currently £71.70 a week.

[GAZZPA]

If they're working what's the problem? They'll pay tax and contribute to the economy just as the Poles and other EU citizends have done.

Depends which jobs they take. What do our unemployed do? Move to Eastern Europe?

No don't be silly man

They educate their children how to get to scavenge the most of our social system.

I guarantee you, in order to achieve that, you need at least two generations of

British experience to do so. Absolute no chance as a genuine unemployed

British worker who used to pay tax until unemployed or for any foreigner who

enters the UK for the first time.

An average British worker working his 45 hours per week plus numerous overtime

will be worse off then the average British unemployed person (mostly doing the

odd, regular cash in hand job) who knows how to get all kind of benefits - benefits

paid by his neighbour.

Now if you're British, are unemployed and subsequently have 7 children, you will

definitely better of then the average Doctor or a GP working in a hospital, maybe,

just maybe even better off then the average Brit living here in Thailand

BUT I suppose it's easier to blame foreigners then ones own kind.

The average wage for a GP £100,000 a year. Jobseeker's allowance is currently £71.70 a week.

like it

[sirineou]

With your study of economics at university would you care to address the lump of labour fallacy you introduced earlier?

No I rather hear your explanation why my position is "lump of labor fallacy"

I am waiting with bated breath, professor Folium

[folium]

With your study of economics at university would you care to address the lump of labour fallacy you introduced earlier?

No I rather hear your explanation why my position is "lump of labor fallacy"

I am waiting with bated breath, professor Folium

As someone so keen to advertise your qualifications it seems strange that you don't know about or understand such a basic concept of economics.

PS Professor is an earned academic title (at least it is in Europe) and is thus deserving of a capital P.

[sirineou]

With your study of economics at university would you care to address the lump of labour fallacy you introduced earlier?

No I rather hear your explanation why my position is "lump of labor fallacy"

I am waiting with bated breath, professor Folium

As someone so keen to advertise your qualifications it seems strange that you don't know about or understand such a basic concept of economics.

PS Professor is an earned academic title (at least it is in Europe) and is thus deserving of a capital P.

Again with the grammatical corrections

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull S*#t "