Sound of ticking time bombs is getting louder for Yingluck

[robblok]

Hey, I can tell you do not live in a Red Shirt village, I do! in a post I wrote 3 months ago I mentioned that people in the village where concerned that Suthep was going to try to take their health care away, as he was stating on his protest stage. The talk in the village makes me worry about Thailand's future.

The Lunatic fringe of the protesters have been having a field day attacking the people of the north! All the hell and damnation rained down on them from the protest stage in Bangkok, did not go unnoticed.

You seem to not have a clue to what is happening in Thailand, you think it is a little game that old man play from the safety of their bar stool. Again it does not matter what any Farang has to say, all Farang's do not have a right to vote it up or down, never will, same as I.

I can only support my family's decisions completely and will only fight if my home is threatened. otherwise I leave it to my many Thai Family , friends and neighbors to take up the cause as it is their freedom and their way of life being threatened.

What you prefer does not matter again you have no say, Funny how so many are so clue less of the long history of Suthep's corruption which are facts of history and he is writing a new chapter in his corruption plagued history by purchasing land with protest money, Some, do not have a clue!!

Cheers

You are clueless as others have shown about the healthcare and the minimum wage. The fact is you live in a red shirt village with tainted news. Thank god I don't and remember the anti government don't have those little indoctrination villages. Villages like that are the root of evil.

It has not been in the newspapers about Suthep wanting to take away healthcare or lowering the minimum wage and how you talking about the elite all the time sounds so communist to me. The anti government people i see are certainly not the elite. They have as much to loose if the minimum wage is taken away. Plus don't forget if you live in the north in a red shirt village that most don't care about the minimum wage as they will be rice farmers not working in factories.

Its been proven time and again this recent period how incompetent and corrupt this current government is the best example is the rice scam. Its been proven they made up fake deals.. proven that they made up deals with governments that were in fact their own people to sell them cheap rice and enter it in the system again (double theft).

I understand that some people from less developed countries are ok with that, I am not I am against corruption and would fight as hard against an other corrupt government as I do against this one. You seem to be one of those guys that thinks voting means they can rape the country as long as they give some change to your people. Seems to be the mentality of many redshirts. They don't want to fight corruption as it hurts their side (not because Dems are angels but because they are not in power and dont have a chance to steal).

So if new laws come into play to really punish corruption the real winners are the Thai people and the losers the corrupt politicians. That is what the anti government is about. Most would not want Suthep as a dictator.. they want meaningful changes in the laws so politicians cant steal.

Probably too hard for people poisoned by red propaganda to understand. Believe me that i would crucify a democrat that was corrupt too just like PTP ones. If Suthep comes up with no statue of limitation on corruption he might get caught by his own law if he is as corrupt as you guys say. (would be nice irony and I would applaud it as corruption must go)

Example of corruption.. wife is a tourguide.. they guided MP's or they said they were but the guides doubted it they might have been relatives too acting like they were MP's 12k was agreed for 4 guides 1,5 day of work. (total sum) Then what happend they all had to sign individually and give their id card that they received 12k and they were not called guides but consultants. So the MPs pocketed 36k for no work while the guides tot their low salary. Guess what that was your elite red PTP. They only found out later what happened when they discussed this among each other.. too late to do anything besides there is no law punishing them anyway. That is what needs to be changed.

[heybruce]

When did they remove the checks and balances? They are facing accountability aren't they? Isn't that what the investigations are about? Isn't that one of the 'ticking time bombs'?

They tried to remove the checks and balances, since they came to power they have done very little else apart from trying to divert attention.

Every time a bit of bad news surfaces, one of them yells "look, over there" and then concocts a barely credible story about why people should look over there.

Inept, incompetent and hopefully infertile, in all meanings of those three words.

Under the preceding constitution the Senate was fully elected. Under the current 2007 constitution, written by a military junta and approved in an "approve this or live under military rule" vote, almost half the Senate is appointed. The current government has been trying to change that. Where you see attempts to remove checks and balances others see reasonable attempts to restore democracy.

Of course it is much easier to critique the performance of the current government than that of yellowshirt governments simply because the yellowshirts have been unable to win an election (though they're pretty adept at coming out the temporary winner after a coup). Instead of working to undermine the elected government, why doesn't the opposition focus on making themselves more electable?

You forgot the part on no direct relatives (or so) joining parliament and senate.

Mind you, with the activities of Thaksin in 2006 to bring all under his control or under control of relatives, having part of the senate elected, part appointed makes sense. We're not talking anout a real democracy here. Both elected and appointed senators must fulfill the same criteria of standing and education. Only the selection of who will be appointed might need fine tuning, but no twisting by the Thaksin thinks Pheu Thai party.

BTW The nationwide police reshuffle which was postponed in November has taken place. Allegedly Metropolitan Police Bureau (MPB) commissioner Kamronwit Thoopkrachang had received permission from Thaksin himself to put together the reshuffle list, a police source said. More in the BangkokPost

Yes, in addition to weakening democratic institutions by filling the Senate with appointed members and transferring significant power to courts loaded with appointed judges, and granting the military full amnesty and increasing its budget, the 2007 constitution did have changes to reduce corruption in elected positions. There's nothing to reduce corruption in the military or reorganize the bloated senior ranks (1750 flag officers in the Thai military versus 652 in the much larger U.S. military). In fact, I don't think this constitution allows the elected government to do much about the military's organization.

Whether you think this makes sense is irrelevant, the self-serving constitution was forced on the people with a choice of accepting it or living under military rule. How would you feel about a fair vote in which the people can choose between the constitution written by the military or the preceding constitution? Or perhaps letting competing parties draft constitutions for the people to choose between? Of course in these proposed elections people would have the right to discuss and criticize the proposed constitutions, unlike in the sham vote for the 2007 constitution.

I'm not going to discuss individual policies or actions by the government or challenge the assertion that Thaksin is the power behind Yingluck. I'm defending the right of the Thai people to real democracy with all it's consequences.

[Brevity]

Here is how to defend "this Shinawatra government". And by the way, it is the same way that one would defend many other governments around the world:

They were elected.

"Presidential, legislative and local elections were held on November 11, 1969 in the Philippines. Incumbent President Ferdinand Marcos won an unprecedented second full term as President of the Philippines.

While in power he implemented wide-ranging programs of infrastructure development and economic reform. However, his administration was marred by massive authoritarian corruption, despotism, nepotism, political repression, and human rights violations."

So Were the Marcos in the Philippines. And we should all know how well they served the people.

The Shinawatras aren't the only people to deceive a country into making a bad vote.

Your defense says it all. There are really no good or practical reasons to defend the Shinawatras, only that they were elected. Thanks for strengthening my assertion.

Democracy isn't perfect, it's often described as the least bad form of government. Autocracies are generally worse. I won't ask which you prefer, the choice belongs to the Thai people.

Just as more Thai people voted for PT and allied parties than the Democrat affiliated parties, so do more Thai people want democracy than oppose it. And just like Suthep and his minions, this majority is willing to take to the streets to defend real democracy. Have you considered what will happen if another elected government is toppled and the election system "reformed" to ensure the majority doesn't determine the winner?

I really can't tell if you are agreeing, disagreeing, or just adding more to my example that voting a person into power doesn't always ensure that people will get what they want or expect.

Since I am not Thai and have no official say in the politics here, haven't thought about reforming the Thai election process or what would happen if another elected government is toppled. The Thais should have a pretty good handle on governments being toppled, though. There has been a coup or attempted coup once about every 5 years on average since the 1930's in Thailand.

I was just pointing out that if the only defense of the Shinawatras is that they were elected into office, that is no defense at all. Wasn't Adolph Hitler and what became the Nazi party actually voted in to office in Germany? I'm sure there are lots of examples of where the democratic process has disappointed voters and the goods promised weren't delivered, or worse.

[kikoman]

Hey, I can tell you do not live in a Red Shirt village, I do! in a post I wrote 3 months ago I mentioned that people in the village where concerned that Suthep was going to try to take their health care away, as he was stating on his protest stage. The talk in the village makes me worry about Thailand's future.

The Lunatic fringe of the protesters have been having a field day attacking the people of the north! All the hell and damnation rained down on them from the protest stage in Bangkok, did not go unnoticed.

You seem to not have a clue to what is happening in Thailand, you think it is a little game that old man play from the safety of their bar stool. Again it does not matter what any Farang has to say, all Farang's do not have a right to vote it up or down, never will, same as I.

I can only support my family's decisions completely and will only fight if my home is threatened. otherwise I leave it to my many Thai Family , friends and neighbors to take up the cause as it is their freedom and their way of life being threatened.

What you prefer does not matter again you have no say, Funny how so many are so clue less of the long history of Suthep's corruption which are facts of history and he is writing a new chapter in his corruption plagued history by purchasing land with protest money, Some, do not have a clue!!

Cheers

"Hey, I can tell you do not live in a Red Shirt village, I do! .............The talk in the village makes me worry about Thailand's future."

I have read some stupid <deleted> posted on TVF but this has got to take some sort of prize. Putting up Red village (the human equivalent of a mushroom farm) gossip as some sort of credible source is mind-blowing, if you have a mind to blow.

Have you not bothered to read some of that human excrement you write, got all the lunatic fringe with their jockey's in a knot. You all seem to have run out of any type of informed, logical, coherent reply, and turn to insults, you all have to do a lot better than that, I have been attacked by experts, what ever any yellows thinks is of no concern of mine.

Many of you clearly think that the Red Shirts are going to sit back and take a judicial coup without a battle, foolish, self serving, wishful thinking.

Do you ever bother to read what is going on in Thailand today, yellows are jumping with joy that the farmers have not been paid, as Rawee Rungruang, leader of the network of farmers from the Western provinces ​"affirmed their rallies are not political and the farmers only want the government to pay them for the rice",

The farmer are publicly distancing themselves from any support from PDRC.

One poster stated that many in the villages were sending their children to universities , well our child is one of those recent University graduate and they have regularly read TV forum posts since last December, When I asked them what was their take on the support of the PTP government and since then, posts on TV have greatly allowed the youthful Thai population in our village a direct insight on the Falang concept of Thai,s and Thailand on a public open forum!

It is not over, get comfortable, I has barely started!!

Cheers

[animatic]

1. Subsidised health care was not a Thaksin thinks idea, and the Dems made it more economical for the country and more affordable for the main beneficiaries.

2. The Dems did promise a raise of the minimum wage, but incrementally over time, meaning it was for sustainable and far less damaging to the entire country, no inflation spike, plus PTP originally said it was a 300B for everyone, then had to back-track to only skilled labourers, who would have been earning more than that anyway.

3. The Dems offered and supported subsidised clothing and learning materials, which would help the rural Thais more than a cheapo nasty little non=functioning tablets that never turned up.

When you manage to open your eyes, you may be able to see reality, and hopefully come to the realisation that the last two lines of your post (apart from Cheers) do nothing other than promote violence from the side your wife is on.

Cheers.

Thaksin's government did introduce the 30 Baht health scheme. PT did introduce the minimum wage without damage to the economy. The tablets have turned up and do work (I've seen films of them in schools).

If the policies of the so-called "Democrat party" are so good, how come the rural people don't vote for them?

If the policies of the so-called "Democrat party" are so good why didn't the so-called "Democrat party" stand in the recent election?

If you are going to answer "because PT buy votes", that is not a good answer because the so-called "Democrat party" outspent PT. In any case, vote buying does not have a significant effect on Thai elections, according to independent experts. Good policies and good campaigning do have a significant effect.

If the policies of the so-called "Democrat party" are so good (and they might be), why don't they campaign on those policies and try to win elections instead of trying to block voting and backing the insurrectionist Suthep?

One should get out of the village and live in the real world and you would realize Thailand is running out of money, in the villages they only hear the stories from corrupt politicians, what they can not grasp is while they vote for those criminals their country gets poorer as the politicians get richer, and now can not pay the farmers in full for last years crop, in a few weeks the farmers will have more rice which they can not sell, in the mean time money is running out and I am sure the free health service will soon run out of funds without the divine intervention of Suthep.

Those people who voted for the Shinawatra's and their cronies have only themselves to blame, yet they are the ones hardest hit.

Actually it was the Dems, likely Chuan, who first proposed the universal healthcare for the poor,

but they couldn't put it through, mostly because of many of Thaksin's current allies objections.

Later Thaksin co-opted it and said it was his idea at 30 baht. But that actually was costly to collect.

The Dems made it cheaper their next time in office, BY MAKING IT 100% FREE.

But then Thaksin's minions put back in the 30 baht, for no other reason that it was his catch phrase idea,

and the costs it added for accounting and graft.

There always was a minimum wage during all the political lifespans of the current political crop.

The Thaksin Political Machine controls information getting up to Isaan,

and controls the village headmen via carrot and stick.

Plus the rice millers controlled the growers until recently.

There are many way to buy votes and they are not all handing out 500 baht outside voting booths.

I have personally seen TRT canvassers buying votes in Chaing mai.

The Dems boycotted a snap election to give time for the rice pledging and other scams to implode, in a big enough way to harm the Thaksin machine. And add impetus to the long needed reforms movement.

They are very good at PR if they can cover up the truth, but when reality rears it's ugly head,

things go bad for them. Some tablets may have worked for awhile, but the provider has gone tits up,

before delivering all of them and most reports say the tablets have a very short life span.

Just crap from a fly by night low bidding manufacturer.

But offering up freebies to the populace can never be construed as good campaigning.

Why to the Dems not campaign in Issan?

Well the main reason is they don't want their politicians and supporters to be

harmed with the violence that has regularly arrived at their rally sites the last 10 years.

It is not physically safe to do so because the likes or Rak Chaing mai, Rak Udon,

Caravan of the Poor and others have violently attacked their meetings up north.

[heybruce]

So if new laws come into play to really punish corruption the real winners are the Thai people and the losers the corrupt politicians. That is what the anti government is about. Most would not want Suthep as a dictator.. they want meaningful changes in the laws so politicians cant steal.

I agree with the first part, I don't believe that the anti-government leaders are serious about fighting corruption. What new laws are Suthep proposing? Transparent government spending? Competitive bidding on contracts? Rewriting Thailand's libel laws so the press can name and shame when they have verifiable facts? Will the fight against corruption extend to the military? A young man I know told me that the price to be exempted from the draft was 30k baht to the local military commander. Of course there is no paper trail to prove this, but since he was a middle class man approaching draft age I think he knew what he was talking about.

Suthep railing against corruption reminds me of a staunchly anit-Thaksin expat bar owner I know. He opposed Thaksin because he was corrupt, but also bragged that he paid his bribes directly to the chief of police. I have no doubt that in Suthep's mind the only bad corruption is that which PT commits. Corruption endemic to his own party is just the normal way of doing business.

By the way, do you think Suthep's fight against corruption extends to a proper investigation and prosecution of his past misdeeds?

[heybruce]

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

Please clarify, does this mean you support the Thai people's right to democratically elect their government, and thus oppose the Democrats and their attempts to topple an elected government?

[northernjohn]

Sound of ticking time bombs is getting louder for Yingluck

Thanong Khanthong

BANGKOK: -- That Thailand will get an interim government is now inevitable. The tenure of Yingluck Shinawatra's caretaker administration will end unceremoniously on April 1.

Constitutionally speaking, it cannot last beyond that deadline.

Well, that means there'll just be another red mob waiting from the orders from the man of Dubai; enough brainwashed supporters in Thailand, who would follow orders without questioning and technically believe in the same old white-to-BLACK-lie-populist policies all over again.... and taking it on battlefield Bangkok for ANOTHER disruption of business and peace in daily life...

... wanna bet????

There is another red mob already, they will probably be already denouncing the Shinawatra's and the drunken court jester, capitalizing on the woes of Yingluck, I could see many current PTP MP's jumping ship just to save their free meal tickets blaming all on the Shinawatra's and their cronies.

Yes a while back I saw a half hour show on the red shirts on Chanel News Asia There is three separate parts of the red shirts now. One of them wants Thaksin out of politics. Not sure if they realize how many in politics they would have to remove to accomplish that.

If Thailand was to have a real election with the Democrats involved it would lead to a Minority Government. Which at this time in my opinion would not be a bad idea. That is what Abhist had and there was nothing any where near the corruption level that is being forced on us by this majority government.

In fact even though Abhist had a very slim majority of backers the government did manage to stop the rise in corruption. From the time the Army turned the government back over to the people.(Thaksin) the corruption was on a sharp rise. Under Abhist with his minority government it stopped rising and remained the same.

That was quite a feat when you stop and think of the number of parties he had to please including 20 who had abandoned Thaksin. With out them it would have remained a Thaksin government. After he left office the corruption once again continued to rise with a 2% rise in 2012. The difference being that the PTP with such a large majority didn't even have to try to hide it. The rice scam water management money unaccounted for relief funds misappropriated.

A new election with all involved will definitely bring a much more aware government of the peoples needs. It would not solve all the countries problems over night but it would be a gigantic step towards it.

Yingluck first thought that white washing her brother would bring unity. How did that work out? Then she figured an election would bring unity how is that working out?

In a nut shell she is clueless and a disgrace to Thailand. I admit a nice looking one. But looks won't get the job done when they are just a front for corruption.

[kikoman]

A few people asked me for documentation on issues I have addressed, I will not go back to see if I can find that in all the articles and documents I read up on in the last 3 months, I believe the documentation was in the Wikipedia history of the Democrat party in Thailand, I remember that page dealt with the Democrat's Abhisit platform of raising the minimum wage 25% to 300 baht and the rich complained and that was quickly dropped as a promise if they were elected! That when PTP won the election they did raise the minimum wage to 300 baht.

That article also documented a very important fact, that the Democrats fielded a slate of candidates that included (30) celebrities and heir of political Democrat families.

I thought that issue was important because of the yellow posters, attacks on the PTP backing of a fully elected Senate, that PTP wanted one so they can run all their family members for political office, and that is is what the Democrats did in the 2011 election.

As there is a big story developing leading up to if the EC abides by the Constitutional requirements on holding the election in the exact time frame as mentioned in the constitution, if I run across them I will post, if I do not it will have to wait until I have the time.

Cheers.

[northernjohn]

So if new laws come into play to really punish corruption the real winners are the Thai people and the losers the corrupt politicians. That is what the anti government is about. Most would not want Suthep as a dictator.. they want meaningful changes in the laws so politicians cant steal.

I agree with the first part, I don't believe that the anti-government leaders are serious about fighting corruption. What new laws are Suthep proposing? Transparent government spending? Competitive bidding on contracts? Rewriting Thailand's libel laws so the press can name and shame when they have verifiable facts? Will the fight against corruption extend to the military? A young man I know told me that the price to be exempted from the draft was 30k baht to the local military commander. Of course there is no paper trail to prove this, but since he was a middle class man approaching draft age I think he knew what he was talking about.

Suthep railing against corruption reminds me of a staunchly anit-Thaksin expat bar owner I know. He opposed Thaksin because he was corrupt, but also bragged that he paid his bribes directly to the chief of police. I have no doubt that in Suthep's mind the only bad corruption is that which PT commits. Corruption endemic to his own party is just the normal way of doing business.

By the way, do you think Suthep's fight against corruption extends to a proper investigation and prosecution of his past misdeeds?

What a crock of crap. Suthep is not proposing any thing other than a committee to work together and come up with suggestions for revamping the government that will lead to a more responsible government which in turn will lead to a more prosperous Thailand.

[fab4]

I would be ashamed to come up with a foolish statement like this.For an honest and intelligent analysis Chis Baker has done a first class summary.Google it.

On the broader front the New York Times has an interesting article including reference to a damning indictment of the Suthep mob by Virabongsa Ramangkura, and an interesting take on the army/coup option.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/08/world/asia/petition-to-nullify-thai-election-is-rejected-in-setback-for-opposition.html?ref=world&_r=0

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included.

[northernjohn]

A few people asked me for documentation on issues I have addressed, I will not go back to see if I can find that in all the articles and documents I read up on in the last 3 months, I believe the documentation was in the Wikipedia history of the Democrat party in Thailand, I remember that page dealt with the Democrat's Abhisit platform of raising the minimum wage 25% to 300 baht and the rich complained and that was quickly dropped as a promise if they were elected! That when PTP won the election they did raise the minimum wage to 300 baht.

That article also documented a very important fact, that the Democrats fielded a slate of candidates that included (30) celebrities and heir of political Democrat families.

I thought that issue was important because of the yellow posters, attacks on the PTP backing of a fully elected Senate, that PTP wanted one so they can run all their family members for political office, and that is is what the Democrats did in the 2011 election.

As there is a big story developing leading up to if the EC abides by the Constitutional requirements on holding the election in the exact time frame as mentioned in the constitution, if I run across them I will post, if I do not it will have to wait until I have the time.

Cheers.

All though it is a good reference source Wikipedia is not always rite.

If the democrats had raised the minimum wages up to 300 baht back in 2009 what would it have done to the economy then. Here we are 4 years later and there is indications that all it has done is raise the cost of living. Many still work for less.

I have no problem with a minimum raise in pay but when it is done in such a huge jump does it really help? How many workers from other countries are working far below that rate? My Mother in law got and still gets 500 baht a month from the government how was the increase in wages helping her. She now has to pay higher prices.

What I am trying to day is the Democrats did rite in not raising it back then and the PTP raised it far to fast for the poor people. It should have been done at a system of raises over a period of time. In short it was just a populace policy that did bnot help that many people and hurt the poor.

[jayboy]

Sorry Pipkins, Suthep got far more votes than Yingluck.

He told people not to vote and 53%of the electorate didn't.

That's about 23 million people!

I would be ashamed to come up with a foolish statement like this.For an honest and intelligent analysis Chis Baker has done a first class summary.Google it.

On the broader front the New York Times has an interesting article including reference to a damning indictment of the Suthep mob by Virabongsa Ramangkura, and an interesting take on the army/coup option.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/08/world/asia/petition-to-nullify-thai-election-is-rejected-in-setback-for-opposition.html?ref=world&_r=0

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

Yes that"s the Cartalucci line - not only crazy as a fruitcake but a conspiracy theorist gone ape.If you prefer to spout his demented output that's an entirely a matter for you but don't expect to be treated seriously.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited February 10, 2014 by jayboy

[heybruce]

So if new laws come into play to really punish corruption the real winners are the Thai people and the losers the corrupt politicians. That is what the anti government is about. Most would not want Suthep as a dictator.. they want meaningful changes in the laws so politicians cant steal.

I agree with the first part, I don't believe that the anti-government leaders are serious about fighting corruption. What new laws are Suthep proposing? Transparent government spending? Competitive bidding on contracts? Rewriting Thailand's libel laws so the press can name and shame when they have verifiable facts? Will the fight against corruption extend to the military? A young man I know told me that the price to be exempted from the draft was 30k baht to the local military commander. Of course there is no paper trail to prove this, but since he was a middle class man approaching draft age I think he knew what he was talking about.

Suthep railing against corruption reminds me of a staunchly anit-Thaksin expat bar owner I know. He opposed Thaksin because he was corrupt, but also bragged that he paid his bribes directly to the chief of police. I have no doubt that in Suthep's mind the only bad corruption is that which PT commits. Corruption endemic to his own party is just the normal way of doing business.

By the way, do you think Suthep's fight against corruption extends to a proper investigation and prosecution of his past misdeeds?

What a crock of crap. Suthep is not proposing any thing other than a committee to work together and come up with suggestions for revamping the government that will lead to a more responsible government which in turn will lead to a more prosperous Thailand.

He's shutting down government and the capital because he wants a committee! Seriously?

if he wants to change things he should win an election, or publish something, or hand out flyers on a street corner. You are not allowed to block major intersections, seize government buildings, and disrupt an entire economy because you have opinions about how government should operate.

[Thaddeus]

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

Please clarify, does this mean you support the Thai people's right to democratically elect their government, and thus oppose the Democrats and their attempts to topple an elected government?

I heartily support the people's right to elect the government they want, I also support the people's right to indicate the government they don't want.

Right now, it looks like over 75% of the people, do not want PTP.

[Emptyset]

Why to the Dems not campaign in Issan?

Well the main reason is they don't want their politicians and supporters to be

harmed with the violence that has regularly arrived at their rally sites the last 10 years.

It is not physically safe to do so because the likes or Rak Chaing mai, Rak Udon,

Caravan of the Poor and others have violently attacked their meetings up north.

The Democrats do campaign in Issan and the North. The 'intimidation' you read about (most of which amounts to nothing more than counter-protests and shouting by a minority although there have been a few more serious incidents) is the exception, not the rule. Most of the time Democrat supporters and red shirts co-exist peacefully. PDRC have been protesting in Khon Kaen for instance and there hasn't even been a counter protest. It's only a small minority, as you point out like RCM51 (who have no more than 200 supporters at most) who take things further. Besides which, most of the anger is directed towards Abhisit personally, not particularly the Democrats as a whole, get rid of AV and campaigning will be much easier in the N/NE.

If Yingluck was campaigning in Songkla and there were angry counter protests against her, would anyone here describe that as 'intimidation'? Or would it be fair game? Sometimes there's a fine line...

[Emptyset]

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

Please clarify, does this mean you support the Thai people's right to democratically elect their government, and thus oppose the Democrats and their attempts to topple an elected government?

I heartily support the people's right to elect the government they want, I also support the people's right to indicate the government they don't want.

Right now, it looks like over 75% of the people, do not want PTP.

Great. Should be an easy win for the Democrats in the next election then. I believe the govt would be willing to schedule a new one on the condition that the Democrats will compete. So why aren't they given that they have the support of three quarters of the populace?

[heybruce]

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

Please clarify, does this mean you support the Thai people's right to democratically elect their government, and thus oppose the Democrats and their attempts to topple an elected government?

I heartily support the people's right to elect the government they want, I also support the people's right to indicate the government they don't want.

Right now, it looks like over 75% of the people, do not want PTP.

Well then, the country should have an election, one where people who want to run can register as candidates and voters can vote without interference.

[robblok]

So if new laws come into play to really punish corruption the real winners are the Thai people and the losers the corrupt politicians. That is what the anti government is about. Most would not want Suthep as a dictator.. they want meaningful changes in the laws so politicians cant steal.

I agree with the first part, I don't believe that the anti-government leaders are serious about fighting corruption. What new laws are Suthep proposing? Transparent government spending? Competitive bidding on contracts? Rewriting Thailand's libel laws so the press can name and shame when they have verifiable facts? Will the fight against corruption extend to the military? A young man I know told me that the price to be exempted from the draft was 30k baht to the local military commander. Of course there is no paper trail to prove this, but since he was a middle class man approaching draft age I think he knew what he was talking about.

Suthep railing against corruption reminds me of a staunchly anit-Thaksin expat bar owner I know. He opposed Thaksin because he was corrupt, but also bragged that he paid his bribes directly to the chief of police. I have no doubt that in Suthep's mind the only bad corruption is that which PT commits. Corruption endemic to his own party is just the normal way of doing business.

By the way, do you think Suthep's fight against corruption extends to a proper investigation and prosecution of his past misdeeds?

He suggested removal of the statue of limitation for corruption. So that was a good suggestion and would have caught him too if he did bad things in the past. If he did so id support that.

The things you mention.. libel laws.. transparent government spending .. competitive bidding.. great I all support those too.

But the current party has shown they don't

Anyway we don't know what Suthep wants because he still did not have the chance to form his reform council. He wont be making the changes others will.

[heybruce]

So if new laws come into play to really punish corruption the real winners are the Thai people and the losers the corrupt politicians. That is what the anti government is about. Most would not want Suthep as a dictator.. they want meaningful changes in the laws so politicians cant steal.

I agree with the first part, I don't believe that the anti-government leaders are serious about fighting corruption. What new laws are Suthep proposing? Transparent government spending? Competitive bidding on contracts? Rewriting Thailand's libel laws so the press can name and shame when they have verifiable facts? Will the fight against corruption extend to the military? A young man I know told me that the price to be exempted from the draft was 30k baht to the local military commander. Of course there is no paper trail to prove this, but since he was a middle class man approaching draft age I think he knew what he was talking about.

Suthep railing against corruption reminds me of a staunchly anit-Thaksin expat bar owner I know. He opposed Thaksin because he was corrupt, but also bragged that he paid his bribes directly to the chief of police. I have no doubt that in Suthep's mind the only bad corruption is that which PT commits. Corruption endemic to his own party is just the normal way of doing business.

By the way, do you think Suthep's fight against corruption extends to a proper investigation and prosecution of his past misdeeds?

He suggested removal of the statue of limitation for corruption. So that was a good suggestion and would have caught him too if he did bad things in the past. If he did so id support that.

The things you mention.. libel laws.. transparent government spending .. competitive bidding.. great I all support those too.

But the current party has shown they don't

Anyway we don't know what Suthep wants because he still did not have the chance to form his reform council. He wont be making the changes others will.

Perhaps if he clarified what his reform council would consider he'd have a better chance of getting the people to accept it. Of course the results of the 2010 election showed that the majority of voters didn't support him then, and his refusal to participate in the latest election indicates that he believes that is still the case now. I'm sure he's right, his past history and absence of meaningful action against corruption when he was deputy prime minister during the Abhisit government give him no credibility as a corruption fighter.

Edited February 10, 2014 by heybruce

[binjalin]

such a shame the 'other' newspaper stops quotations - it is leagues ahead in quality reporting than The Nation which is so right wing, elite biased that it makes The Sun look like a left wing newspaper

[fab4]

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

Please clarify, does this mean you support the Thai people's right to democratically elect their government, and thus oppose the Democrats and their attempts to topple an elected government?

I heartily support the people's right to elect the government they want, I also support the people's right to indicate the government they don't want.

Right now, it looks like over 75% of the people, do not want PTP.

That's what elections are for. I dispute your 75% figure, that is my opinion.

[rubl]

Under the preceding constitution the Senate was fully elected. Under the current 2007 constitution, written by a military junta and approved in an "approve this or live under military rule" vote, almost half the Senate is appointed. The current government has been trying to change that. Where you see attempts to remove checks and balances others see reasonable attempts to restore democracy.

Of course it is much easier to critique the performance of the current government than that of yellowshirt governments simply because the yellowshirts have been unable to win an election (though they're pretty adept at coming out the temporary winner after a coup). Instead of working to undermine the elected government, why doesn't the opposition focus on making themselves more electable?

You forgot the part on no direct relatives (or so) joining parliament and senate.

Mind you, with the activities of Thaksin in 2006 to bring all under his control or under control of relatives, having part of the senate elected, part appointed makes sense. We're not talking anout a real democracy here. Both elected and appointed senators must fulfill the same criteria of standing and education. Only the selection of who will be appointed might need fine tuning, but no twisting by the Thaksin thinks Pheu Thai party.

BTW The nationwide police reshuffle which was postponed in November has taken place. Allegedly Metropolitan Police Bureau (MPB) commissioner Kamronwit Thoopkrachang had received permission from Thaksin himself to put together the reshuffle list, a police source said. More in the BangkokPost

Yes, in addition to weakening democratic institutions by filling the Senate with appointed members and transferring significant power to courts loaded with appointed judges, and granting the military full amnesty and increasing its budget, the 2007 constitution did have changes to reduce corruption in elected positions. There's nothing to reduce corruption in the military or reorganize the bloated senior ranks (1750 flag officers in the Thai military versus 652 in the much larger U.S. military). In fact, I don't think this constitution allows the elected government to do much about the military's organization.

Whether you think this makes sense is irrelevant, the self-serving constitution was forced on the people with a choice of accepting it or living under military rule. How would you feel about a fair vote in which the people can choose between the constitution written by the military or the preceding constitution? Or perhaps letting competing parties draft constitutions for the people to choose between? Of course in these proposed elections people would have the right to discuss and criticize the proposed constitutions, unlike in the sham vote for the 2007 constitution.

I'm not going to discuss individual policies or actions by the government or challenge the assertion that Thaksin is the power behind Yingluck. I'm defending the right of the Thai people to real democracy with all it's consequences.

You seem to operate under the assumption that Thailand is a functional democracy. Furthermore you seem to forget that the topic is on 'ticking timebombs for Yingluck', the dear lady who always seems soo reasonable in 'please wait', 'please give us time', 'please let's talk', 'please go home' while her fellow Pheu Thai members and MPs put up a more forceful stand. Democracy and a pushed through 'blanket amesty bill'. Protests and "it's up to the senate'. Farmers not paid, and 'delay because of protests'. "I'm the boss' followed by Thaksin' interview about 'guiding his sister'.

You're right in one thing though the Thai people have a right to real democracy. If the consequence is getting rid of Thaksin c.s., so be it.

BTW Thaksin regularly says he wants to stay away from politics and Ms. Yingluck wanted a life in peace and to be left alone. Well, that would be a nice first step.

[Thaddeus]

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

Please clarify, does this mean you support the Thai people's right to democratically elect their government, and thus oppose the Democrats and their attempts to topple an elected government?

I heartily support the people's right to elect the government they want, I also support the people's right to indicate the government they don't want.

Right now, it looks like over 75% of the people, do not want PTP.

Well then, the country should have an election, one where people who want to run can register as candidates and voters can vote without interference.

Yes, I agree.

[rubl]

The New York Times is a mouthpiece for the Globalists of the Carlyle Group and Bilderburg Group for which Dr. Thaksin is their front man. New York banks seek control of the World, Thailand included. For my part, I would prefer Thai elites to exploit Thais rather than Global elites exploit Thais. Poor people the World over will always be exploited. This battle is to decide if Thais control Thailand's government and economy or Globalists do. The New York Times is good for wiping you ass if you have nothing else.

Please clarify, does this mean you support the Thai people's right to democratically elect their government, and thus oppose the Democrats and their attempts to topple an elected government?

I heartily support the people's right to elect the government they want, I also support the people's right to indicate the government they don't want.

Right now, it looks like over 75% of the people, do not want PTP.

Great. Should be an easy win for the Democrats in the next election then. I believe the govt would be willing to schedule a new one on the condition that the Democrats will compete. So why aren't they given that they have the support of three quarters of the populace?

It would seem that people here think it's undemocratic that the Democrat Party decided to 'boycot' the elections by not participating.

BTW being against Pheu Thai is not equivalent to being for Democrat Party v.v.

[LevelHead]

who dominates the senate?

So the writer is saying that those opposed to Suthep and the Democrat Party must now prevent the senate elections from happening, therefore without a senate it will be impossible to relieve the caretaker government of their power.

That, I think, will not be talked about yet, however if the EC refuses to hold by-elections to fill the 95% of seats then there will be a mass boycott and disruption of the senate elections end of March.

Tit for tat as they say.

The senate is not a real democratic institution anyway. Following the coup it went from 100% elected (truly democratic) to being 50% elected with the other 50% appointed without any elections. Of course the big problem was PTP wanted to return the senate to being fully elected and this is what kicked off the protests (in reality but hidden behind the agenda of amnesty).

So therefore, given the senate is not truly a democratic institution it would well be that the Senate elections (which unsurprisingly the EC want to hold without problems) might get totally disrupted - we may see the inverse of the general election, in that the senate election can be held in the South and Bangkok but will be stopped in the North and Northeast.

The most obvious thing would be to hold the by-elections for parliament at the same time as the senate elections - 2 in 1.

But it appears the anti-election EC do not want this as it might lead to a successful parliamentary election as the forces against the government want the senate election to go without problem. Its no surprise to therefore see Somchai of the EC saying it would "confuse" people to hold the senate and parliamentary elections at the same time and so it cannot be done, yes, we know what your agenda is matey in my opinion.

All in my opinion of course.

[heybruce]

Yes, in addition to weakening democratic institutions by filling the Senate with appointed members and transferring significant power to courts loaded with appointed judges, and granting the military full amnesty and increasing its budget, the 2007 constitution did have changes to reduce corruption in elected positions. There's nothing to reduce corruption in the military or reorganize the bloated senior ranks (1750 flag officers in the Thai military versus 652 in the much larger U.S. military). In fact, I don't think this constitution allows the elected government to do much about the military's organization.

Whether you think this makes sense is irrelevant, the self-serving constitution was forced on the people with a choice of accepting it or living under military rule. How would you feel about a fair vote in which the people can choose between the constitution written by the military or the preceding constitution? Or perhaps letting competing parties draft constitutions for the people to choose between? Of course in these proposed elections people would have the right to discuss and criticize the proposed constitutions, unlike in the sham vote for the 2007 constitution.

I'm not going to discuss individual policies or actions by the government or challenge the assertion that Thaksin is the power behind Yingluck. I'm defending the right of the Thai people to real democracy with all it's consequences.

You seem to operate under the assumption that Thailand is a functional democracy. Furthermore you seem to forget that the topic is on 'ticking timebombs for Yingluck', the dear lady who always seems soo reasonable in 'please wait', 'please give us time', 'please let's talk', 'please go home' while her fellow Pheu Thai members and MPs put up a more forceful stand. Democracy and a pushed through 'blanket amesty bill'. Protests and "it's up to the senate'. Farmers not paid, and 'delay because of protests'. "I'm the boss' followed by Thaksin' interview about 'guiding his sister'.

You're right in one thing though the Thai people have a right to real democracy. If the consequence is getting rid of Thaksin c.s., so be it.

BTW Thaksin regularly says he wants to stay away from politics and Ms. Yingluck wanted a life in peace and to be left alone. Well, that would be a nice first step.

No, I operate on the assumption that Thailand should progress towards a functional democracy. That requires changing the constitution to strengthen democratic institutions, a serious effort to eliminate corruption (I don't believe either side is truly interested in eliminating corruption), and most important, developing the mindset that elected officials should be allowed to finish their terms. This last part requires that losing parties accept that they lost and focus their energies on making themselves more electable the next time, not on overthrowing the government through any undemocratic means possible.

[rubl]

Yes, in addition to weakening democratic institutions by filling the Senate with appointed members and transferring significant power to courts loaded with appointed judges, and granting the military full amnesty and increasing its budget, the 2007 constitution did have changes to reduce corruption in elected positions. There's nothing to reduce corruption in the military or reorganize the bloated senior ranks (1750 flag officers in the Thai military versus 652 in the much larger U.S. military). In fact, I don't think this constitution allows the elected government to do much about the military's organization.

Whether you think this makes sense is irrelevant, the self-serving constitution was forced on the people with a choice of accepting it or living under military rule. How would you feel about a fair vote in which the people can choose between the constitution written by the military or the preceding constitution? Or perhaps letting competing parties draft constitutions for the people to choose between? Of course in these proposed elections people would have the right to discuss and criticize the proposed constitutions, unlike in the sham vote for the 2007 constitution.

I'm not going to discuss individual policies or actions by the government or challenge the assertion that Thaksin is the power behind Yingluck. I'm defending the right of the Thai people to real democracy with all it's consequences.

You seem to operate under the assumption that Thailand is a functional democracy. Furthermore you seem to forget that the topic is on 'ticking timebombs for Yingluck', the dear lady who always seems soo reasonable in 'please wait', 'please give us time', 'please let's talk', 'please go home' while her fellow Pheu Thai members and MPs put up a more forceful stand. Democracy and a pushed through 'blanket amesty bill'. Protests and "it's up to the senate'. Farmers not paid, and 'delay because of protests'. "I'm the boss' followed by Thaksin' interview about 'guiding his sister'.

You're right in one thing though the Thai people have a right to real democracy. If the consequence is getting rid of Thaksin c.s., so be it.

BTW Thaksin regularly says he wants to stay away from politics and Ms. Yingluck wanted a life in peace and to be left alone. Well, that would be a nice first step.

No, I operate on the assumption that Thailand should progress towards a functional democracy. That requires changing the constitution to strengthen democratic institutions, a serious effort to eliminate corruption (I don't believe either side is truly interested in eliminating corruption), and most important, developing the mindset that elected officials should be allowed to finish their terms. This last part requires that losing parties accept that they lost and focus their energies on making themselves more electable the next time, not on overthrowing the government through any undemocratic means possible.

The last also requires that 'winning' parties do 'respect my vote' and don't start along the line 'We have a mandate, we can do what we want, get Thaksin back'.

[gemini81]

who dominates the senate?

So the writer is saying that those opposed to Suthep and the Democrat Party must now prevent the senate elections from happening, therefore without a senate it will be impossible to relieve the caretaker government of their power.

That, I think, will not be talked about yet, however if the EC refuses to hold by-elections to fill the 95% of seats then there will be a mass boycott and disruption of the senate elections end of March.

Tit for tat as they say.

The senate is not a real democratic institution anyway. Following the coup it went from 100% elected (truly democratic) to being 50% elected with the other 50% appointed without any elections. Of course the big problem was PTP wanted to return the senate to being fully elected and this is what kicked off the protests (in reality but hidden behind the agenda of amnesty).

So therefore, given the senate is not truly a democratic institution it would well be that the Senate elections (which unsurprisingly the EC want to hold without problems) might get totally disrupted - we may see the inverse of the general election, in that the senate election can be held in the South and Bangkok but will be stopped in the North and Northeast.

The most obvious thing would be to hold the by-elections for parliament at the same time as the senate elections - 2 in 1.

But it appears the anti-election EC do not want this as it might lead to a successful parliamentary election as the forces against the government want the senate election to go without problem. Its no surprise to therefore see Somchai of the EC saying it would "confuse" people to hold the senate and parliamentary elections at the same time and so it cannot be done, yes, we know what your agenda is matey in my opinion.

All in my opinion of course.

This is a constitutional monarchy. Hearing the word 'democratic' again and again just sounds like a marketing ploy- it works on some locals here I know. Hopefully posters on here can recognize the system is far from democratic. I agree a lot of your examples are more like winner-take-all. Seems like thats part of the real problem here that replay over and over again.

Edited February 10, 2014 by gemini81

[heybruce]

Yes, in addition to weakening democratic institutions by filling the Senate with appointed members and transferring significant power to courts loaded with appointed judges, and granting the military full amnesty and increasing its budget, the 2007 constitution did have changes to reduce corruption in elected positions. There's nothing to reduce corruption in the military or reorganize the bloated senior ranks (1750 flag officers in the Thai military versus 652 in the much larger U.S. military). In fact, I don't think this constitution allows the elected government to do much about the military's organization.

Whether you think this makes sense is irrelevant, the self-serving constitution was forced on the people with a choice of accepting it or living under military rule. How would you feel about a fair vote in which the people can choose between the constitution written by the military or the preceding constitution? Or perhaps letting competing parties draft constitutions for the people to choose between? Of course in these proposed elections people would have the right to discuss and criticize the proposed constitutions, unlike in the sham vote for the 2007 constitution.

I'm not going to discuss individual policies or actions by the government or challenge the assertion that Thaksin is the power behind Yingluck. I'm defending the right of the Thai people to real democracy with all it's consequences.

You seem to operate under the assumption that Thailand is a functional democracy. Furthermore you seem to forget that the topic is on 'ticking timebombs for Yingluck', the dear lady who always seems soo reasonable in 'please wait', 'please give us time', 'please let's talk', 'please go home' while her fellow Pheu Thai members and MPs put up a more forceful stand. Democracy and a pushed through 'blanket amesty bill'. Protests and "it's up to the senate'. Farmers not paid, and 'delay because of protests'. "I'm the boss' followed by Thaksin' interview about 'guiding his sister'.

You're right in one thing though the Thai people have a right to real democracy. If the consequence is getting rid of Thaksin c.s., so be it.

BTW Thaksin regularly says he wants to stay away from politics and Ms. Yingluck wanted a life in peace and to be left alone. Well, that would be a nice first step.

No, I operate on the assumption that Thailand should progress towards a functional democracy. That requires changing the constitution to strengthen democratic institutions, a serious effort to eliminate corruption (I don't believe either side is truly interested in eliminating corruption), and most important, developing the mindset that elected officials should be allowed to finish their terms. This last part requires that losing parties accept that they lost and focus their energies on making themselves more electable the next time, not on overthrowing the government through any undemocratic means possible.

The last also requires that 'winning' parties do 'respect my vote' and don't start along the line 'We have a mandate, we can do what we want, get Thaksin back'.

Where did you get the idea that in a democracy winning parties aren't allowed to do anything that upsets the losing parties?