EC turns to Constitutional Court on electoral decree

[webfact]

POLITICS
EC turns to Constitutional Court on electoral decree
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- THE ELECTION Commission will seek a new ruling from the Constitutional Court as to whether it is for the EC or the government to issue a new election decree.

EC member Somchai Srisuthiyakorn said yesterday that a ruling on this was necessary as the government has insisted that it cannot issue a new decree to set a new voting date for the 28 constituencies in eight provinces in the South that had no candidates for the February 2 poll.

EC secretary-general Puchong Nutrawong said the agency would convene today to draft a petition to be submitted to the court later.

He said all election commissioners, with the exception of one, met yesterday and agreed to ask provincial governors, police and military in five provinces to provide security for election officials and ensure the new round of voting on March 2 goes ahead smoothly. Many polling stations in these provinces were forced to close on February 2 due to disruption by protesters.


-- The Nation 2014-02-27

[tezzainoz]

Does any one know what the real rules are

it seems the right hand has no idea of what the left hand is doing

Every time I ask someone what are the rules, it is the same as asking for directions

[ggold]

by the time this gets sorted it will be too late! how can they organise free and fair elections within 3 days?

[notmyself]

by the time this gets sorted it will be too late! how can they organise free and fair elections within 3 days?

Same way they cannot in 3 years.

Seems that the areas which were disrupted have a 'chance' of going ahead but the areas without candidates will need another decree but then what happens if there is no contest even then? I guess PTP could send a couple of candidates down to the south in tanks to register but then you have the problem with voter turnout.

I'd be asking the CC too just to keep myself safe from prosecution.

[ChrisY1]

Does any one know what the real rules are

it seems the right hand has no idea of what the left hand is doing

Every time I ask someone what are the rules, it is the same as asking for directions

The rules appear to be able to be bent, delayed, tossed out or ignored.....IMO, not very many have much understanding of the constitution...including the country' elite academics. Just seems a fiasco all the time.

And for your last sentence....quite correct....Thais cannot give directions....and cannot understand the directions given...)

[Chupup]

Don't ask Me , I only work here

[tx22cb]

The problem is that, although most rules/laws are precise, there is always the possibility that someone will take the issue to the courts afterwards, and, er, let's say that some Thai judges are occasionally erratic, especially those who were appointed by politicians.

Judges are people, and people have their biases and leanings.

But no Thais recuse themselves from any situation - they have been put there by someone, and they owe their position to that patron.

Thailand is still a feudal society, where patronage is a way of life, blinkered loyalty is paramount, and it is more honourable to repay your master's generosity than to be impartial.

[thaivapor]

The problem is that, although most rules/laws are precise, there is always the possibility that someone will take the issue to the courts afterwards, and, er, let's say that some Thai judges are occasionally erratic, especially those who were appointed by politicians.

Judges are people, and people have their biases and leanings.

But no Thais recuse themselves from any situation - they have been put there by someone, and they owe their position to that patron.

Thailand is still a feudal society, where patronage is a way of life, blinkered loyalty is paramount, and it is more honourable to repay your master's generosity than to be impartial.

While I agree with most of that, the real issue is that the constitution has not been drawn up to represent the current situation. It has made provisions for a variety of circumstances, but not all circumstances be covered, and this is a complex one.

The EC has wanted to approach the CC on several occasions during the period leading up to this situation because they knew things would get very tricky if they proceded and they were forced to proceed by the government.... FACT.

They gave many warnings of this situation and were totally ignored. The best they got was a very opaque response from the CC regards postponement that required the consent of both parties by mutual agreement. Of course the PTP were never going to agree. So the EC went ahead on a 'be it on your own head' basis.

The EC were proven 100% correct and left an election in an almost impossible position.

They have wanted to approach the CC since Feb 2nd, but were called into talks with the government time and again, which ended in being forced to abide by PTP wishes. This have totally removed the responsibility away from the EC which is meant to be the authority on election procedures, but the government seem to be running the show which is actually wrong. Especially the way they are so inept at everything they are involved with.

So now they will go back to the CC for a clear decision and I hope they just start ignoring the government and go solely with the CC advice. Despite all the veiled threats they get from PTP about being sued etc.

The best way to go is to declare the election as void because there is no constitutional provision for the situation and everything will lead to an infringement of one article or the other no matter what course is taken.

The county will have to be put under an interim government and PM and a new royal decree sought for fresh elections. That is the only way I can see it being constitutional.

Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments).

Also a fresh bout of elections may well see Thailand pulled back from the brink, it may also disperse the BBK rallies so they can prepare a good campaign of opposition to the Yingluck administration.

Would also be nice if the courts could rush through some legislation making the elections free and fair as possible without vote buying, intimidation and populism with immediate suspension for any party in breech. Would be even nicer if they ruled that any party to be seen to be aligned with Thaksin Shinawatra will also be in breech. The man needs to have ALL influence removed from Thai political affairs if we can begin to even hope to fix this broken society.

[notmyself]

The problem is that, although most rules/laws are precise, there is always the possibility that someone will take the issue to the courts afterwards, and, er, let's say that some Thai judges are occasionally erratic, especially those who were appointed by politicians.

Judges are people, and people have their biases and leanings.

But no Thais recuse themselves from any situation - they have been put there by someone, and they owe their position to that patron.

Thailand is still a feudal society, where patronage is a way of life, blinkered loyalty is paramount, and it is more honourable to repay your master's generosity than to be impartial.

While I agree with most of that, the real issue is that the constitution has not been drawn up to represent the current situation. It has made provisions for a variety of circumstances, but not all circumstances be covered, and this is a complex one.

The EC has wanted to approach the CC on several occasions during the period leading up to this situation because they knew things would get very tricky if they proceded and they were forced to proceed by the government.... FACT.

They gave many warnings of this situation and were totally ignored. The best they got was a very opaque response from the CC regards postponement that required the consent of both parties by mutual agreement. Of course the PTP were never going to agree. So the EC went ahead on a 'be it on your own head' basis.

The EC were proven 100% correct and left an election in an almost impossible position.

They have wanted to approach the CC since Feb 2nd, but were called into talks with the government time and again, which ended in being forced to abide by PTP wishes. This have totally removed the responsibility away from the EC which is meant to be the authority on election procedures, but the government seem to be running the show which is actually wrong. Especially the way they are so inept at everything they are involved with.

So now they will go back to the CC for a clear decision and I hope they just start ignoring the government and go solely with the CC advice. Despite all the veiled threats they get from PTP about being sued etc.

The best way to go is to declare the election as void because there is no constitutional provision for the situation and everything will lead to an infringement of one article or the other no matter what course is taken.

The county will have to be put under an interim government and PM and a new royal decree sought for fresh elections. That is the only way I can see it being constitutional.

Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments).

Also a fresh bout of elections may well see Thailand pulled back from the brink, it may also disperse the BBK rallies so they can prepare a good campaign of opposition to the Yingluck administration.

Would also be nice if the courts could rush through some legislation making the elections free and fair as possible without vote buying, intimidation and populism with immediate suspension for any party in breech. Would be even nicer if they ruled that any party to be seen to be aligned with Thaksin Shinawatra will also be in breech. The man needs to have ALL influence removed from Thai political affairs if we can begin to even hope to fix this broken society.

The EC have actually given the PTP and easy ride an will no doubt be punished for it. There is a limit and this is it.

Edited February 27, 2014 by notmyself

[diehard60]

The problem is that, although most rules/laws are precise, there is always the possibility that someone will take the issue to the courts afterwards, and, er, let's say that some Thai judges are occasionally erratic, especially those who were appointed by politicians.

Judges are people, and people have their biases and leanings.

But no Thais recuse themselves from any situation - they have been put there by someone, and they owe their position to that patron.

Thailand is still a feudal society, where patronage is a way of life, blinkered loyalty is paramount, and it is more honourable to repay your master's generosity than to be impartial.

While I agree with most of that, the real issue is that the constitution has not been drawn up to represent the current situation. It has made provisions for a variety of circumstances, but not all circumstances be covered, and this is a complex one.

The EC has wanted to approach the CC on several occasions during the period leading up to this situation because they knew things would get very tricky if they proceded and they were forced to proceed by the government.... FACT.

They gave many warnings of this situation and were totally ignored. The best they got was a very opaque response from the CC regards postponement that required the consent of both parties by mutual agreement. Of course the PTP were never going to agree. So the EC went ahead on a 'be it on your own head' basis.

The EC were proven 100% correct and left an election in an almost impossible position.

They have wanted to approach the CC since Feb 2nd, but were called into talks with the government time and again, which ended in being forced to abide by PTP wishes. This have totally removed the responsibility away from the EC which is meant to be the authority on election procedures, but the government seem to be running the show which is actually wrong. Especially the way they are so inept at everything they are involved with.

So now they will go back to the CC for a clear decision and I hope they just start ignoring the government and go solely with the CC advice. Despite all the veiled threats they get from PTP about being sued etc.

The best way to go is to declare the election as void because there is no constitutional provision for the situation and everything will lead to an infringement of one article or the other no matter what course is taken.

The county will have to be put under an interim government and PM and a new royal decree sought for fresh elections. That is the only way I can see it being constitutional.

Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments).

Also a fresh bout of elections may well see Thailand pulled back from the brink, it may also disperse the BBK rallies so they can prepare a good campaign of opposition to the Yingluck administration.

Would also be nice if the courts could rush through some legislation making the elections free and fair as possible without vote buying, intimidation and populism with immediate suspension for any party in breech. Would be even nicer if they ruled that any party to be seen to be aligned with Thaksin Shinawatra will also be in breech. The man needs to have ALL influence removed from Thai political affairs if we can begin to even hope to fix this broken society.

And do the same for the democrats while we are it RIGHT???????????????????????

[rubl]

Would also be nice if the courts could rush through some legislation making the elections free and fair as possible without vote buying, intimidation and populism with immediate suspension for any party in breech. Would be even nicer if they ruled that any party to be seen to be aligned with Thaksin Shinawatra will also be in breech. The man needs to have ALL influence removed from Thai political affairs if we can begin to even hope to fix this broken society.

Courts are not supposed to rush through some legislation, not even at a sedate pace. Your request is herewith denied.

[heybruce]

The EC have actually given the PTP and easy ride an will no doubt be punished for it. There is a limit and this is it.

Huh? The election wasn't finished because of Suthep's protesters. Now the Suthep supporters are claiming the election wasn't legitimate because their illegal disruption partially succeeded.

How many protest leaders have been arrested for disrupting the elections? It's Suthep and his minions who are getting the easy ride.

[heybruce]

The problem is that, although most rules/laws are precise, there is always the possibility that someone will take the issue to the courts afterwards, and, er, let's say that some Thai judges are occasionally erratic, especially those who were appointed by politicians.

Judges are people, and people have their biases and leanings.

But no Thais recuse themselves from any situation - they have been put there by someone, and they owe their position to that patron.

Thailand is still a feudal society, where patronage is a way of life, blinkered loyalty is paramount, and it is more honourable to repay your master's generosity than to be impartial.

While I agree with most of that, the real issue is that the constitution has not been drawn up to represent the current situation. It has made provisions for a variety of circumstances, but not all circumstances be covered, and this is a complex one.

The EC has wanted to approach the CC on several occasions during the period leading up to this situation because they knew things would get very tricky if they proceded and they were forced to proceed by the government.... FACT.

They gave many warnings of this situation and were totally ignored. The best they got was a very opaque response from the CC regards postponement that required the consent of both parties by mutual agreement. Of course the PTP were never going to agree. So the EC went ahead on a 'be it on your own head' basis.

The EC were proven 100% correct and left an election in an almost impossible position.

They have wanted to approach the CC since Feb 2nd, but were called into talks with the government time and again, which ended in being forced to abide by PTP wishes. This have totally removed the responsibility away from the EC which is meant to be the authority on election procedures, but the government seem to be running the show which is actually wrong. Especially the way they are so inept at everything they are involved with.

So now they will go back to the CC for a clear decision and I hope they just start ignoring the government and go solely with the CC advice. Despite all the veiled threats they get from PTP about being sued etc.

The best way to go is to declare the election as void because there is no constitutional provision for the situation and everything will lead to an infringement of one article or the other no matter what course is taken.

The county will have to be put under an interim government and PM and a new royal decree sought for fresh elections. That is the only way I can see it being constitutional.

Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments).

Also a fresh bout of elections may well see Thailand pulled back from the brink, it may also disperse the BBK rallies so they can prepare a good campaign of opposition to the Yingluck administration.

Would also be nice if the courts could rush through some legislation making the elections free and fair as possible without vote buying, intimidation and populism with immediate suspension for any party in breech. Would be even nicer if they ruled that any party to be seen to be aligned with Thaksin Shinawatra will also be in breech. The man needs to have ALL influence removed from Thai political affairs if we can begin to even hope to fix this broken society.

"Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments)."

And yet the Democrats still fear elections. They know that the reason turnout was lackluster was because the voters knew that without opposition the result was a foregone conclusion and they didn't want to take time off from work for a pointless exercise.

I'm all for running the election again. The challenge is getting to Democrats to participate.

[rubl]

"Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments)."

And yet the Democrats still fear elections. They know that the reason turnout was lackluster was because the voters knew that without opposition the result was a foregone conclusion and they didn't want to take time off from work for a pointless exercise.

I'm all for running the election again. The challenge is getting to Democrats to participate.

Well actually I was told that especially in North and NorthEast voters were too afraid of possible violence to go voting. People there scare easily it would seem.

[rickirs]

This is just frustrating! Once again the EC doesn't seem very confident that it knows its authority and again reaches out to the Constitutional Court. You can't run a government with day-to-day runs to the Constitutional Courts for guidance. But perhaps there is something more basic happening here than disappointment with performance of the government, the Democats, all the independent agencies, and the Court. And that is Case Law.

Case law is created out of a history of court decisions on the application of law to various similar situations that, if the decisions follow a general consistent pattern of court decisions, in effect create law. If the Constitutional Court has been rarely used for constitutional decisions, there will be few decisions that could establish any relevant case law.

So maybe the repeated filings with the Constitutional Court by the Government, the Democrats, and all the independent agencies on fundamental legal issues are a good thing to build records of case law (assuming lack of corruption or conflict of interest within the court), albeit a frustratingly slow and inefficient process. I just hope that Thailand is given enough civil history so that case law can be established over time.

[rubl]

This is just frustrating! Once again the EC doesn't seem very confident that it knows its authority and again reaches out to the Constitutional Court. You can't run a government with day-to-day runs to the Constitutional Courts for guidance. But perhaps there is something more basic happening here than disappointment with performance of the government, the Democats, all the independent agencies, and the Court. And that is Case Law.

Case law is created out of a history of court decisions on the application of law to various similar situations that, if the decisions follow a general consistent pattern of court decisions, in effect create law. If the Constitutional Court has been rarely used for constitutional decisions, there will be few decisions that could establish any relevant case law.

So maybe the repeated filings with the Constitutional Court by the Government, the Democrats, and all the independent agencies on fundamental legal issues are a good thing to build records of case law (assuming lack of corruption or conflict of interest within the court), albeit a frustratingly slow and inefficient process. I just hope that Thailand is given enough civil history so that case law can be established over time.

'but perhaps', 'maybe', etc., etc.

Anyway, may I suggest you start some reading on 'jurisprudence' and how that works in Thailand and Thai laws?

[timewilltell]

This is just frustrating! Once again the EC doesn't seem very confident that it knows its authority and again reaches out to the Constitutional Court. You can't run a government with day-to-day runs to the Constitutional Courts for guidance. But perhaps there is something more basic happening here than disappointment with performance of the government, the Democats, all the independent agencies, and the Court. And that is Case Law.

Case law is created out of a history of court decisions on the application of law to various similar situations that, if the decisions follow a general consistent pattern of court decisions, in effect create law. If the Constitutional Court has been rarely used for constitutional decisions, there will be few decisions that could establish any relevant case law.

So maybe the repeated filings with the Constitutional Court by the Government, the Democrats, and all the independent agencies on fundamental legal issues are a good thing to build records of case law (assuming lack of corruption or conflict of interest within the court), albeit a frustratingly slow and inefficient process. I just hope that Thailand is given enough civil history so that case law can be established over time.

Well that would-be a great idea except case law is not really ingrained in the justice system. Like most good systems they have adopted, Thais have the uncanny knack of screwing with them so they won't work. It is a peculiar thing.

Judges here can decide how they like and very little case law is ever cited.

[Scamper]

The Constitutional Court rulings have become necessary, as the Yingluck administration continues to reinvent constitutional process as they go along. Whatever happens in the constituencies that hold the next stage of voting on March 2, March 5 will be when Article 7 takes effect, as the date for the convening of parliament will have passed, and Yingluck and her administration will be stripped of their caretaker status. Inevitably, the Constitutional Court will handle the very issue of the election's constitutionality. The timelines in the constitution regarding these matters are clear. There is no question that there are a myriad of constitutional precedents that are taking place simultaneously. Once the concept of a perpetual election taking place over weeks and months is finally put to the courts, they will give their reasoned verdict in line with the constitution.

[fab4]

"Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments)."

And yet the Democrats still fear elections. They know that the reason turnout was lackluster was because the voters knew that without opposition the result was a foregone conclusion and they didn't want to take time off from work for a pointless exercise.

I'm all for running the election again. The challenge is getting to Democrats to participate.

Well actually I was told that especially in North and NorthEast voters were too afraid of possible violence to go voting. People there scare easily it would seem.

I presume you must be referring to those voters in the North and North East, who, according to what you've been told, "were afraid of possible violence", would be democrat party voters.

It's a bit difficult to vote for the dems anywhere at the moment . You may recall their head boy decided to not play at elections (again) thus disenfranchising many millions of his party's voters.

Now that's democracy for you, way to go, abhisit...........................

[fab4]

This is just frustrating! Once again the EC doesn't seem very confident that it knows its authority and again reaches out to the Constitutional Court. You can't run a government with day-to-day runs to the Constitutional Courts for guidance. But perhaps there is something more basic happening here than disappointment with performance of the government, the Democats, all the independent agencies, and the Court. And that is Case Law.

Case law is created out of a history of court decisions on the application of law to various similar situations that, if the decisions follow a general consistent pattern of court decisions, in effect create law. If the Constitutional Court has been rarely used for constitutional decisions, there will be few decisions that could establish any relevant case law.

So maybe the repeated filings with the Constitutional Court by the Government, the Democrats, and all the independent agencies on fundamental legal issues are a good thing to build records of case law (assuming lack of corruption or conflict of interest within the court), albeit a frustratingly slow and inefficient process. I just hope that Thailand is given enough civil history so that case law can be established over time.

'but perhaps', 'maybe', etc., etc.

Anyway, may I suggest you start some reading on 'jurisprudence' and how that works in Thailand and Thai laws?

May I suggest the judges do some reading as well?

[heybruce]

"Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments)."

And yet the Democrats still fear elections. They know that the reason turnout was lackluster was because the voters knew that without opposition the result was a foregone conclusion and they didn't want to take time off from work for a pointless exercise.

I'm all for running the election again. The challenge is getting to Democrats to participate.

Well actually I was told that especially in North and NorthEast voters were too afraid of possible violence to go voting. People there scare easily it would seem.

Who told you that? I live in the north. I avoid discussing politics with Thai friends, but the only one who mentioned the election saw no point in taking time off from her business to vote. I didn't hear or see anything to suggest that people were afraid to vote.

[rubl]

"Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments)."

And yet the Democrats still fear elections. They know that the reason turnout was lackluster was because the voters knew that without opposition the result was a foregone conclusion and they didn't want to take time off from work for a pointless exercise.

I'm all for running the election again. The challenge is getting to Democrats to participate.

Well actually I was told that especially in North and NorthEast voters were too afraid of possible violence to go voting. People there scare easily it would seem.

I presume you must be referring to those voters in the North and North East, who, according to what you've been told, "were afraid of possible violence", would be democrat party voters.

It's a bit difficult to vote for the dems anywhere at the moment . You may recall their head boy decided to not play at elections (again) thus disenfranchising many millions of his party's voters.

Now that's democracy for you, way to go, abhisit...........................

With the Democrat party boycotting the election by not participating or even registering candidates, it would seems unlikely I'm talking about Dem's voters. It's much more than after the 2nd Feb some had it that obviously Pheu Thai could have got even more votes, but fear of violence might have deterred voters.

BTW the decision to not register candidates is a lawful decision and it didn't disenfranchise 'his party's voters'. The democratic party also only advised their members not to vote and the same towards those of the electorate which might normally have voted for them. At least the voters were told beforhand, wheras Pheu Thai has a tendency to 'respect my vote' only till it's counted after which the electorate and any opposition should not bother them too much. Very democratic.

[rubl]

"Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments)."

And yet the Democrats still fear elections. They know that the reason turnout was lackluster was because the voters knew that without opposition the result was a foregone conclusion and they didn't want to take time off from work for a pointless exercise.

I'm all for running the election again. The challenge is getting to Democrats to participate.

Well actually I was told that especially in North and NorthEast voters were too afraid of possible violence to go voting. People there scare easily it would seem.

Who told you that? I live in the north. I avoid discussing politics with Thai friends, but the only one who mentioned the election saw no point in taking time off from her business to vote. I didn't hear or see anything to suggest that people were afraid to vote.

After the 2nd of February when it became clear that les than 50% of voters had turned up in certain areas and even 20% or more of votes cast were invalid/no vote, a few nice posters here suggested that PHeu Thai could have got many more votes if their voters hadn't been too afraid to go voting. Of course Ii is seldom I question posters who are well versed and knowledgeble on all this government and Pheu Thai does.

[rubl]

This is just frustrating! Once again the EC doesn't seem very confident that it knows its authority and again reaches out to the Constitutional Court. You can't run a government with day-to-day runs to the Constitutional Courts for guidance. But perhaps there is something more basic happening here than disappointment with performance of the government, the Democats, all the independent agencies, and the Court. And that is Case Law.

Case law is created out of a history of court decisions on the application of law to various similar situations that, if the decisions follow a general consistent pattern of court decisions, in effect create law. If the Constitutional Court has been rarely used for constitutional decisions, there will be few decisions that could establish any relevant case law.

So maybe the repeated filings with the Constitutional Court by the Government, the Democrats, and all the independent agencies on fundamental legal issues are a good thing to build records of case law (assuming lack of corruption or conflict of interest within the court), albeit a frustratingly slow and inefficient process. I just hope that Thailand is given enough civil history so that case law can be established over time.

'but perhaps', 'maybe', etc., etc.

Anyway, may I suggest you start some reading on 'jurisprudence' and how that works in Thailand and Thai laws?

May I suggest the judges do some reading as well?

Are you having some doubts on the professionalism of the Constitutional Court judges ? Are you so knowledgeble in Thai law that you (think you) can both state and proof ?

[BlueNoseCodger]

While I agree with most of that, the real issue is that the constitution has not been drawn up to represent the current situation. It has made provisions for a variety of circumstances, but not all circumstances be covered, and this is a complex one.

The EC has wanted to approach the CC on several occasions during the period leading up to this situation because they knew things would get very tricky if they proceded and they were forced to proceed by the government.... FACT.

They gave many warnings of this situation and were totally ignored. The best they got was a very opaque response from the CC regards postponement that required the consent of both parties by mutual agreement. Of course the PTP were never going to agree. So the EC went ahead on a 'be it on your own head' basis.

The EC were proven 100% correct and left an election in an almost impossible position.

They have wanted to approach the CC since Feb 2nd, but were called into talks with the government time and again, which ended in being forced to abide by PTP wishes. This have totally removed the responsibility away from the EC which is meant to be the authority on election procedures, but the government seem to be running the show which is actually wrong. Especially the way they are so inept at everything they are involved with.

So now they will go back to the CC for a clear decision and I hope they just start ignoring the government and go solely with the CC advice. Despite all the veiled threats they get from PTP about being sued etc.

The best way to go is to declare the election as void because there is no constitutional provision for the situation and everything will lead to an infringement of one article or the other no matter what course is taken.

The county will have to be put under an interim government and PM and a new royal decree sought for fresh elections. That is the only way I can see it being constitutional.

Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments).

Also a fresh bout of elections may well see Thailand pulled back from the brink, it may also disperse the BBK rallies so they can prepare a good campaign of opposition to the Yingluck administration.

Would also be nice if the courts could rush through some legislation making the elections free and fair as possible without vote buying, intimidation and populism with immediate suspension for any party in breech. Would be even nicer if they ruled that any party to be seen to be aligned with Thaksin Shinawatra will also be in breech. The man needs to have ALL influence removed from Thai political affairs if we can begin to even hope to fix this broken society.

Lots of words there.

EC is responsible for running elections, they failed so far to deliver those.

So lets examine some behaviour when faced with a problem.

BANGKOK: -- The Election Commission announced at 11 am Saturday that registrations of constituency-based candidates in 32 constituencies in six southern provinces could not proceed on the first day Saturday. The EC said 343 of 375 constituencies in other provinces could proceed with the candidate registrations. The six southern provinces are Chumphon, Nakhon Si Thammarat, Krabi, Songkhla, Surat Thani and Patthalung. Protesters in the provinces blocked candidates from submitting their applications.

The government arranges for them to use police stations and army bases as venues. EC declines.

BANGKOK, Dec 30 - Centre for the Administration of Peace and Order (CAPO) head Surapong Tovichakchaikul says the caretaker government is advising the Election Commission (EC) to use army and police premises for election registration in 8 southern provinces where protesters are blocking the process.

The result? They Fail to do their job.

Jan 4th The Election Commission said yesterday that the February 2 poll would continue as planned, with no extension for candidate registration in 28 constituencies disrupted by protesters in provinces in the South.

The commission's secretary-general, Puchong Nutrawong, explained that any extension of registration would affect the schedule for 150,000 Thai expatriates overseas and another 2.5 million eligible voters registered for advance voting.

Ahhh.. so it might delay expat voting, whereas now they claim the election can't continue at all! No game playing there at all (sarc). They did nothing to fix it for 6 days!

So in effect the EC choices worked with the protestors to provide an excuse by which the EC can kill the election process. They're requesting another 108 dissolution decree, which would dissolve parliament and restart elections. But the EC can simply do the same trick again and again and again and again and again..... never finishing an election.

The EC claims they cannot register candidates now in those provinces, because organic law sets a time limit by which they need to register candidates after the dissolution decree. However this is not even a constitutional question. A time limit is minor detail in organic law, trumped by EC's obligation under the constitution:

Section 236. The Election Commission shall have the following powers and duties:

(6) to order a new election or a new voting at a referendum to be held in any or all polling stations when there occurs convincing evidence that the election or the voting at a referendum in that or those polling stations has not proceeded in an honest and fair manner;

The Constitution certainly has a clause specifically to provide the authority to run elections in these problem polls. The EC is simply ignoring it.

Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments).

11 million estimated, down from 15, but given the troubles that's not bad. Your guarantee is worthless. The rules of elections are clear, PT have won.

Also a fresh bout of elections may well see Thailand pulled back from the brink, it may also disperse the BBK rallies so they can prepare a good campaign of opposition to the Yingluck administration.

Suthep won't end his protests, so this point is moot. Any new elections would be a re-run of the same games. Plus does anyone really believe the election is not rigged for the Dems now? They can even cancel an election, the ultimate form of rigging, extraordinarily easily! They knew where election boxes were held, when they were shipped, where pre-election training was. etc. It's so easy to rig elections if its so easy to stop them!

Abhisit would need to go back to democracy too, something he clearly will not do from his latest remarks.

Suthep's backer doesn't have the power to order fresh elections, which should speak volumes to you.

Would also be nice if the courts could rush through some legislation making the elections free and fair as possible without vote buying, intimidation and populism with immediate suspension for any party in breech. Would be even nicer if they ruled that any party to be seen to be aligned with Thaksin Shinawatra will also be in breech. The man needs to have ALL influence removed from Thai political affairs if we can begin to even hope to fix this broken society.

I think you want them to bar PT, then have a quick election before they can reform, same as 2008. Which ended in a massacre and the economy drop. It's not democracy. More like Plutocracy.

Edited February 27, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger

[kikoman]

The EC has caused the present problem by not following the election time limits in constitution, the EC no one elses fault, they were tasked to set up an election and they did all they could not to fulfil their agency responsibility.

Cheers

[BlueNoseCodger]

"Given that the PTP only gained 8 million votes, and all their support bases enjoyed uninterrupted ballots, one can fairly assume that if the Dems ran in a fresh election, they would take it by a country mile and then some, because I will guarantee that this 8 million votes has been eroded a lot more since Feb 2nd (see farmer payments)."

And yet the Democrats still fear elections. They know that the reason turnout was lackluster was because the voters knew that without opposition the result was a foregone conclusion and they didn't want to take time off from work for a pointless exercise.

I'm all for running the election again. The challenge is getting to Democrats to participate.

Well actually I was told that especially in North and NorthEast voters were too afraid of possible violence to go voting. People there scare easily it would seem.

Who told you that? I live in the north. I avoid discussing politics with Thai friends, but the only one who mentioned the election saw no point in taking time off from her business to vote. I didn't hear or see anything to suggest that people were afraid to vote.

That's not true, the breakdown shows that where PT dominates, their voted voted, often in higher numbers. Where Democrats dominated, (i.e. where the protestors were likely to be), turnout was low by more than the drop in the dems.

So there clearly was a fear factor in there. People stayed away from clash polling stations!

(Source Asia Correspondant)

Where Puea Thai and/or the third parties did well in 2011, the turn-out in 2014 was on average higher. This is hardly surprising, but actually did want to confirm this. You will see the provinces with the lowest difference are mainly in the North and the Northeast. For the top 25 provinces with the lowest difference in turn-out, Puea Thai and the third parties scored received at least 70% of the party vote in 2011 EXCEPT in Mae Hong Son (combined 55.45%) and Amnat Charoen (combined 59.52%). Don’t have any specific reason why.

A moot point since they still voted in enough numbers to elect a candidate in all but one seats that voted.

Yingluk won. (and if anything the people attacking the integrity of the vote confirm it was the only legitimate way to power).

Edited February 27, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger

[kimamey]

Does any one know what the real rules are

it seems the right hand has no idea of what the left hand is doing

Every time I ask someone what are the rules, it is the same as asking for directions

The rules appear to be able to be bent, delayed, tossed out or ignored.....IMO, not very many have much understanding of the constitution...including the country' elite academics. Just seems a fiasco all the time.

And for your last sentence....quite correct....Thais cannot give directions....and cannot understand the directions given...)

Is the problem that the rules keep changing with every constitution and the changes aren't to clarify badly written points but to change them completely. Instead of a stable constitution or set of rules that just need occasional clarification Thailand has just got a mess that can't be sorted because both sides want it changed to suit them.

[TheClog]

You could have a constitution written by elected bodies, rather than the Military Junta "coup issued law".

[BlueNoseCodger]

Does any one know what the real rules are

it seems the right hand has no idea of what the left hand is doing

Every time I ask someone what are the rules, it is the same as asking for directions

The rules appear to be able to be bent, delayed, tossed out or ignored.....IMO, not very many have much understanding of the constitution...including the country' elite academics. Just seems a fiasco all the time.

And for your last sentence....quite correct....Thais cannot give directions....and cannot understand the directions given...)

Is the problem that the rules keep changing with every constitution and the changes aren't to clarify badly written points but to change them completely. Instead of a stable constitution or set of rules that just need occasional clarification Thailand has just got a mess that can't be sorted because both sides want it changed to suit them.

Not really, this is not a new constitution, it's been bashed around for decades. The 2007 changes have not helped, just made it easier to undermine.

Clearly the problem isn't the constitution at all. It's loyalty of people in the independent offices. Suthep's backers are tier 2 backers, and as a result don't have the power to do what they're attempting.

So when they attempt it, they rip Thailand apart.

Edited February 28, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger