P45Mustang Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 So what's the answer? You can bet your bottom dollar that RR know exactly what they and their engines can do. And they will have no axe to grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tifino Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) The civvie radar system has the controllers (ATC) viewing the A/C CallSigns, which are all that's seen onscreen, along with sqwark codes - all of which are Secondary info. If the air traffic controllers had all Primary on at all times, the screens become overly cluttered, especially with radar returns that are not even aircraft. The civilian radar system that employs Primary returns for display is the Weather Radar. As far as 'seeing' someone, a Civvie controller is advised of someone of interest in his Sector, when they 'Sqwark Ident'. Each controller has his own Sector of responsibility, and looks at what he is told to. In relation to Secondary failure, the most likely scenario would be that an aircraft reports, or is reported by, another authority, that it's transponder has 'failed', and until the Civvie Controller knows there's an 'invisible' aircraft flying through his watch(his Sector), he won't see it, or even know to look for it. I've worked in a Tower staffed by a co-operation of Civilan, and Defence, ATC controllers, each group having their own set of SOPs to follow, even though they are all using the same Radar system. In our case the civvies were using our MilitaryRadar, but using it their way - Secondary Only. I'm only recalling what I have seen myself, at the sharp end, as it were... cool. We've had several experienced pilots on this thread, now it looks as though we have someone with hands-on experience with radar. Interesting. And a new phrase: 'Sqwark Ident' I might use that for naming my next child. Just out of interest the word is "squawk" and not "Sqwark". Squawk is a 4 digit code that can be set on the transponder at the request of ATC, to signal a hijacking, etc - it then replaces the aircraft's prearranged tranponder code. yep, you're correct in what you may have googled. It's a hard habit to break away from - use of a phonetic term, for many things, often gets used at work here in uniform It often happened in congested airspace, and/or times R/T is hard to hear, and the Controller is calling the fellow on the radio to squark... to show which is he on the screen. On our screens we can display multiple lines of the **** code,well - on the Military side of the fence anyhow. The **** codes themselves, for Emergency, Hijack etc are respectively pre-defined, & no need to digress into them at this time eh! - maybe that is what was deleted from that earlier Post? Strange, the malays, not saying much, especially as the malay MinDef radars had them on screen, yet no report of them having even attempted to make contact for the period(s?) that the A/C was on-screen... Edited June 9, 2014 by tifino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 The civvie radar system has the controllers (ATC) viewing the A/C CallSigns, which are all that's seen onscreen, along with sqwark codes - all of which are Secondary info. If the air traffic controllers had all Primary on at all times, the screens become overly cluttered, especially with radar returns that are not even aircraft. The civilian radar system that employs Primary returns for display is the Weather Radar. As far as 'seeing' someone, a Civvie controller is advised of someone of interest in his Sector, when they 'Sqwark Ident'. Each controller has his own Sector of responsibility, and looks at what he is told to. In relation to Secondary failure, the most likely scenario would be that an aircraft reports, or is reported by, another authority, that it's transponder has 'failed', and until the Civvie Controller knows there's an 'invisible' aircraft flying through his watch(his Sector), he won't see it, or even know to look for it. I've worked in a Tower staffed by a co-operation of Civilan, and Defence, ATC controllers, each group having their own set of SOPs to follow, even though they are all using the same Radar system. In our case the civvies were using our MilitaryRadar, but using it their way - Secondary Only. I'm only recalling what I have seen myself, at the sharp end, as it were... cool. We've had several experienced pilots on this thread, now it looks as though we have someone with hands-on experience with radar. Interesting. And a new phrase: 'Sqwark Ident' I might use that for naming my next child.Just out of interest the word is "squawk" and not "Sqwark". Squawk is a 4 digit code that can be set on the transponder at the request of ATC, to signal a hijacking, etc - it then replaces the aircraft's prearranged tranponder code.yep, you're correct in what you may have googled. It's a hard habit to break away from - use of a phonetic term, for many things, often gets used at work here in uniform It often happened in congested airspace, and/or times R/T is hard to hear, and the Controller is calling the fellow on the radio to squark... to show which is he on the screen. On our screens we can display multiple lines of the **** code,well - on the Military side of the fence anyhow. The **** codes themselves, for Emergency, Hijack etc are respectively pre-defined, & no need to digress into them at this time eh! - maybe that is what was deleted from that earlier Post? Strange, the malays, not saying much, especially as the malay MinDef radars had them on screen, yet no report of them having even attempted to make contact for the period(s?) that the A/C was on-screen... Mr Anwar held a press conference a month ago where he angrily lamented that Malaysian radar was not properly used re; the missing plane. Malaysian defenses were asleep at the wheel, and/or Malaysian authorities are keeping crucial data under wraps. Methinks it's both. I'm looking out my window and there's a little orange bird carrying a sprig of straw to build its nest. Life goes on...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Not for some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coma Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 An oil rig worker who claimed to have seen a fire in the sky on the night Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 disappeared has been fired, with police confirming his claims are being taken seriously. Read more at http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/2014/06/09/10/45/oil-rig-worker-fired-after-mh370-claims#h5dEGdbxSEmBbMmY.99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tifino Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) ...worker tells the truth, then gets flamed - but I guess that's the new world order of how things are how they are for now ...and Anwar now appears as the good guy. Always getting flamed for exposing that which doesn't look quite right. I remember the days, decades ago now, when he was first rising to popularity. The little guy in the islamic cap and dress verus DrM in the suit and tie. My, how things have changed since those days of Anwar as Deputy PM on the other side of the House... Edited June 9, 2014 by tifino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigermonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 The plane was not shot down by the Americans. Do you think the US could fly around territory under the control of other countries without being noticed or without notifying them? Do you think that they start shooting live ammunition at planes without consultation from others? Do you think that the somebody, especially the Chinese wouldn't be screaming bloody murder if they thought their citizens had been killed by the US? The area was not US controlled airspace, the US would have little access to information on flights in someone else's airspace. They would take an interest in monitoring any activity around their ships, but it's not their airspace and it's not their responsibility to identify what is going on. MAS wouldn't be notifying the US of planes flying near it's ships either. Ah but Diego Garcia is American airspace and the Rolls Royce engines recorded around 4 hours of operation from the last point of contact which is around 2,000 miles. Diego Garcia is about 2,100 miles. Just sayin' There was NO recording of 4 hours of operation by the Rolls Royce engines. ACARS did not transmit engine data again after the Top Of Climb report, before MH370 went silent. There is evidence that the engines continued to function for 6-7 hours after that, but only from the Inmarsat analysis of the Sat pings. I beg to differ, the engines, as in all Rolls Royce engines fitted to civilian airliners, were in constant contact with Rolls Royce whilst they were in operation, and these engines were reported by Rolls Royce, soon after the incident, to have been in operation for four hours after the last point of contact. What is your source for this information ? What you say is impossible. Rolls Royce engine data for MHS is transmitted via VHS. VHS was not operating after the A/C went silent over the Gulf of Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigermonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Somewhat old news. Australia has released the request for tender for the private search for MH370. The tender closes on June 30. They do not say what their acceptance criteria will be for the successful bidder. I do hope that they will not go for the 'lowest bid' but for the apparent best/most experienced/ best qualified. I shudder to think of the results if they accept only on the basis of price. Tehder request is here: https://www.tenders.gov.au/?event=public.atm.show&ATMUUID=C1B3888F-F6FA-5874-5FBEB3C04BEB2FB0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 tigermonkey seems resistant to alternative opinion with the greatest of respect of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Somewhat old news. Australia has released the request for tender for the private search for MH370. The tender closes on June 30. They do not say what their acceptance criteria will be for the successful bidder. I do hope that they will not go for the 'lowest bid' but for the apparent best/most experienced/ best qualified. I shudder to think of the results if they accept only on the basis of price. Tehder request is here: https://www.tenders.gov.au/?event=public.atm.show&ATMUUID=C1B3888F-F6FA-5874-5FBEB3C04BEB2FB0 That's how they do it in the PRC though. Never mind the quality feel the width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigermonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 tigermonkey seems resistant to alternative opinion with the greatest of respect of course. I'm really quite open to any reasoned, well-informed opinion. Which subject were you referring to - I'm "all ears" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Categoric dismissal by you of oil rig worker story leaves me unimpressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigermonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Categoric dismissal by you of oil rig worker story leaves me unimpressed. Sorry if I gave you the impression that it was a "categoric dismissal": it was not ! It was a decision based on the facts available to me, which led me to believe that the oil rig worker may have seen something, but it could not reasonably have been MH370. That decision was based on the laws of physics, and knowledge of visual acuity of human beings. Hence I have an alternate opinion to yours, which is fine with me, but unfortunately seems to cause you some discomfort. Sorry for that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Categoric dismissal by you of oil rig worker story leaves me unimpressed. Sorry if I gave you the impression that it was a "categoric dismissal": it was not ! It was a decision based on the facts available to me, which led me to believe that the oil rig worker may have seen something, but it could not reasonably have been MH370. That decision was based on the laws of physics, and knowledge of visual acuity of human beings. Hence I have an alternate opinion to yours, which is fine with me, but unfortunately seems to cause you some discomfort. Sorry for that ! Your dogmatic approach, with the greatest respect, continues to leave me unimpressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigermonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Categoric dismissal by you of oil rig worker story leaves me unimpressed. Sorry if I gave you the impression that it was a "categoric dismissal": it was not ! It was a decision based on the facts available to me, which led me to believe that the oil rig worker may have seen something, but it could not reasonably have been MH370. That decision was based on the laws of physics, and knowledge of visual acuity of human beings. Hence I have an alternate opinion to yours, which is fine with me, but unfortunately seems to cause you some discomfort. Sorry for that ! Your dogmatic approach, with the greatest respect, continues to leave me unimpressed. So be it. I've never tried to impress you or anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 June 9, 2014, 12:20 a.m. ET Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 Search Zone Poised for Another Shift By Andy Pasztor, Jon Ostrower and Daniel Stacey For the third time in less than three months, investigators looking for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 are poised for a shift in search areas after revising some of their basic assumptions, according to people familiar with the process. The latest rethinking, these people said, reflects inescapable uncertainties about the speed, flight path and altitude of the Boeing 777, which mysteriously veered off its flight plan on March 8, flew on for hours and is believed to have run out of fuel before going down in the remote southern Indian Ocean carrying 239 people. But until the aircraft is found, such assumptions are still educated guesses. Changing the assumed speed, trajectory and altitude, though, can result in sharply divergent underwater search areas, possibly taking teams significantly south or southwest from where they focused their efforts in May. http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20140608-701346.html? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Categoric dismissal by you of oil rig worker story leaves me unimpressed. Sorry if I gave you the impression that it was a "categoric dismissal": it was not ! It was a decision based on the facts available to me, which led me to believe that the oil rig worker may have seen something, but it could not reasonably have been MH370. That decision was based on the laws of physics, and knowledge of visual acuity of human beings. Hence I have an alternate opinion to yours, which is fine with me, but unfortunately seems to cause you some discomfort. Sorry for that ! Your dogmatic approach, with the greatest respect, continues to leave me unimpressed. So be it. I've never tried to impress you or anyone. You seemed to be doing a very good job of impressing the laws of physics on me though. Application of the laws of physics are fine. IF the data is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigermonkey Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 June 9, 2014, 12:20 a.m. ET Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 Search Zone Poised for Another Shift By Andy Pasztor, Jon Ostrower and Daniel Stacey For the third time in less than three months, investigators looking for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 are poised for a shift in search areas after revising some of their basic assumptions, according to people familiar with the process. The latest rethinking, these people said, reflects inescapable uncertainties about the speed, flight path and altitude of the Boeing 777, which mysteriously veered off its flight plan on March 8, flew on for hours and is believed to have run out of fuel before going down in the remote southern Indian Ocean carrying 239 people. But until the aircraft is found, such assumptions are still educated guesses. Changing the assumed speed, trajectory and altitude, though, can result in sharply divergent underwater search areas, possibly taking teams significantly south or southwest from where they focused their efforts in May. http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20140608-701346.html? Excellent read - thank you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Yep. Chicog posted it just for you. I mean us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstipek Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 There was NO recording of 4 hours of operation by the Rolls Royce engines. ACARS did not transmit engine data again after the Top Of Climb report, before MH370 went silent. There is evidence that the engines continued to function for 6-7 hours after that, but only from the Inmarsat analysis of the Sat pings. I beg to differ, the engines, as in all Rolls Royce engines fitted to civilian airliners, were in constant contact with Rolls Royce whilst they were in operation, and these engines were reported by Rolls Royce, soon after the incident, to have been in operation for four hours after the last point of contact. What is your source for this information ? What you say is impossible. Rolls Royce engine data for MHS is transmitted via VHS. VHS was not operating after the A/C went silent over the Gulf of Thailand. Were not the Sat Pings from ASCARS trying to connect? as per Inmarsat..... As everything else was turned off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Better ask Isaac Newton I reckon. Won't get much change out of tigermonkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstipek Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Your dogmatic approach, with the greatest respect, continues to leave me unimpressed. So be it. I've never tried to impress you or anyone. You seemed to be doing a very good job of impressing the laws of physics on me though. Application of the laws of physics are fine. IF the data is correct. Hmmm.... Are you retired?? If so I guess your Employer is reliefed And if your still working... I can bet they are counting the Days till you do retire. As it looks contrary to your own statement.... Unless anyone agreed with you about any subject relating to MH370... You Blatently disagreed! If you dis agree start at #1 and read them all again! Agreeing with you would help prove there is no evidence anywhere of where the plane is now. So as Austrailia is revamping their thinking, why is it not logical for readers to do here also. If their comments are base on even some "Off Centered" Logic. One one in pointing fingers at anyone... We just want "ALL" possible senarios honestly looked at. I believe you would also if you had Family onboard.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Your dogmatic approach, with the greatest respect, continues to leave me unimpressed. So be it. I've never tried to impress you or anyone. You seemed to be doing a very good job of impressing the laws of physics on me though. Application of the laws of physics are fine. IF the data is correct. Hmmm.... Are you retired?? If so I guess your Employer is reliefed And if your still working... I can bet they are counting the Days till you do retire. As it looks contrary to your own statement.... Unless anyone agreed with you about any subject relating to MH370... You Blatently disagreed! If you dis agree start at #1 and read them all again! Agreeing with you would help prove there is no evidence anywhere of where the plane is now. So as Austrailia is revamping their thinking, why is it not logical for readers to do here also. If their comments are base on even some "Off Centered" Logic. One one in pointing fingers at anyone... We just want "ALL" possible senarios honestly looked at. I believe you would also if you had Family onboard.... Sounds like you aren't picking up what I'm saying david. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidstipek Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 So be it. I've never tried to impress you or anyone. You seemed to be doing a very good job of impressing the laws of physics on me though. Application of the laws of physics are fine. IF the data is correct. Hmmm.... Are you retired?? If so I guess your Employer is reliefed And if your still working... I can bet they are counting the Days till you do retire. As it looks contrary to your own statement.... Unless anyone agreed with you about any subject relating to MH370... You Blatently disagreed! If you dis agree start at #1 and read them all again! Agreeing with you would help prove there is no evidence anywhere of where the plane is now. So as Austrailia is revamping their thinking, why is it not logical for readers to do here also. If their comments are base on even some "Off Centered" Logic. One one in pointing fingers at anyone... We just want "ALL" possible senarios honestly looked at. I believe you would also if you had Family onboard.... Sounds like you aren't picking up what I'm saying david. I was referring to Tiger Monkey... not you P45... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P45Mustang Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I hear you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tifino Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 a bit like " it was God musta shot me down over the Vatican" in Rome, Italy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F4UCorsair Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) The head of the organization coordinating the search in Australia, former Chief of the Defence Forces, Angus Houston, has just said that it could take two years to find the aircraft!! I still contend that if it crashed out of control, not actually 'landed' on the water, there will be significant wreckage washing up....somewhere. That may also be the case if it was put down on the water by a crew member, unless he was very lucky. Edited June 10, 2014 by F4UCorsair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomerangutang Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Have there been other plane crashes (or similar) in that region of the Indian Ocean? If so, where would debris most likely get washed up? It might be a moot point, as the closest land mass is west coast of Australia, and that's a long way from - the purported crash site. Since all other surrounding regions are sea, then it's more testament to the skills of the pilot ....assuming he ditched at a place and in a manner - to leave as little debris as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Fugro joins search for missing Malaysian airplane Tuesday 10 June 2014 Geotechnical survey group Fugro is joining the search for the missing Malaysian airliner which disappeared on March 8. The Leidschendam-based company is joining the search at the request of the Australian transport safety council which is leading the investigation. Fugro will search a 60,000 square metre area of the seabed to the west of Australia with the Fugro Equator, a specialist ship containing advanced echo apparatus. It was in this area that 'pings' were heard which are thought to have come from flight MH370's black box. © DutchNews.nl http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/06/fugro_joins_search_for_missing.php? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippybangkok Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Fugro will search a 60,000 square metre area Waow - almost found it Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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