Visa crackdown: Is this the end of the road for unqualified ESL teachers in Thailand?

[GoonDizzy]

So what's the long and short of it all , do you guys think the government when they get one that is...will realise their mistakes they are making when are very few English teachers left.It seems to me there is a lot of crazy things going on Thailand. I've not been there since last October but will be heading back in a couple of months and I must admit I'm not sure what to expect


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Plan on leaving. I can stay for another year if I want to. I've obtained a 3 month O visa. I'm not interested in more as I can see what's going on. Plan ahead. For elsewhere. Sad, but true. I can't see a secure future in Thailand for me and the missus. I'll miss the Thai pals I have made, but needs must.

[fozzy58uk]

I read with great interest from people who have no idea of the qualifications necessary to teach in the UK spouting that a first degree is necessary to teach in the UK.

I am a TEFLER, I have a CELTA but no degree. I teach in colleges and uni in the UK. No problems at all.

My sister who left school at 16 with only CSEs not even O levels has been teaching in the UK for quarter of a century. She is also on the board of directors at her present school and last year was voted the best teacher at primary level in the county.

One of the few countries in the world that I am supposedly unqualified to teach English is Thailand. Piffle.

 

[fozzy58uk]

Further to my previous post, many TEFLERs work illegally without WPs on non imm visas based on marriage or retirement.

Watch out they will be coming fo you next.

Will they kick out all genuine marriage and retirement holders to 'get'  the illegal TEFLERS who have made a life in Thailand.

Keep looking over your shoulders. 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[pomchop]

I continue to think that what most Thai kids need is PRACTICE actually trying to speak and understand English. 

 

Diagraming sentences and the study of obscure grammar rules may get you a good score on a written test but from what I have seen at least in the public schools have pretty much zero attention to speaking or understanding English.  The Thai English teachers speak to the kids mostly in Thai.

 

I've seen/heard farangs rattle on about all the different accents that farangs have and how it might "confuse" the kids...to which I say BS....IF you can get the kids to speak/understand pretty much ANY accent they will be light years beyond where most of them are now.

 

IF IF IF Thailand would make it easier for bored/retired/older farangs to volunteer at the local schools and if nothing else just TRY and talk with the kids in English I suspect there would be a lot of people interested....instead of throwing up all kind of nonsense work permit requirements for someone to VOLUNTEER to help for FREE you destroy what could be a very beneficial asset.  Naturally there would need to be some safeguards in place like having a thai teacher in the room to protect against pedos etc but that isn't impossible.

 

Who knows...maybe the junta might just see the value of allowing English speaking farangs to at least try and help some kids for free without wrapping it on so much red tape.

[Thai at Heart]

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.
Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 
Somehow I doubt that very much. Not many native English speakers can even speak (or write) perfect English....if in doubt, just have a look at the grammar and spelling on this forum (and that's with the assistance of a "corrector"). I can easily read your own post Enzo....but it is hardly written in perfect Englisn.

Absolute nonsense.

Any kid that gets a B grade in GCSE English, is to my mind, writing perfectly acceptable English language. They could probably make a damn good fist of teaching it too.

If an average Thai high school student could achieve that, it would mean an improvement of probably 20 times on the current average.

[BudRight]

Further to my previous post, many TEFLERs work illegally without WPs on non imm visas based on marriage or retirement.
Watch out they will be coming fo you next.
Will they kick out all genuine marriage and retirement holders to 'get'  the illegal TEFLERS who have made a life in Thailand.
Keep looking over your shoulders. 
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for meand there was no one left to speak for me.

I was thinking the same thing. Before, these people were saying 'get a tourist visa, it's easy.' Now they're saying 'get married, it's easy.' Soon they'll say 'oh well, I'm over 50, they can't touch me.'

They are coming for everyone. The Thais aren't going to give you a medal and a star for following the rules all this time. They'll just kick you out like everyone else.

I have my popcorn.

[harrry]

 

A decent TEFL is what's needed to teach English in Europe, so why does Thailand think it can demand more? The wages?

Isn't this just a way to get rid of native speakers? I expect Filipino and Malaysian English teachers to be the norm soon.

I didn't think you could teach in any children's' school (junior or high) in Europe without a degree.
Same in the USA.

Adult education is different, less qualifications and less wages.

 

A recognised TEFL  is all that is required to teach English in Australia to non English speakers in such things as after school programs and adult education.  Although a degree is desirable it is not  needed. If a visa is wanted for teaching however a degree is required.

[thesetat2013]

In fact, there are plenty of people who are excellent teachers, even without the proper qualifications. I think what the government should do before any of this is make it easier for schools to get a visa for any teacher who they have interviewed and observed a few demo lessons. After all, this issue here from Thailand's POV is not the quality of education, but the illegal workers not paying taxes and breaking the rules.  
 
Make it easier to get visas for any legitimate worker, THEN enforce the crap out of it.

The problem Mark is that they have done just the opposite. I was a teacher here for 5 years and have excellent references. I had work permits for all my jobs. I was ready to take the Thai teachers test. Then they cancelled all testing for foreigners. Then they disallowed my degree for continuing to teach. Luckily for me i had foresight and saved my money to get my marraige visa. I loved teaching the kids and felt i was helping and their english was improving. Now i just sit home alone or go out to drink beer while my wife goes off to work. They have made it harder to be a teacher here. This is not just about visas and in\out tourists.

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[duanebigsby]

A degree from a Pinoy Uni/Low level Thai Uni vs A native English speaker with 3 A Levels (1 in English Lang and one in English Lit at grade A) plus a cert TrinityTESOL/Delta/Cetla.
 
If you think the first opton is the best, you haven't got a clue. I've thought about this and I think it's down to paperwork. If someone has a degree, it's a safe option. If they have 'grey areas' then all hell could break loose. Sad, but true. It would not relieve Thailand of the muppets 'teaching' in Thailand.  My suggestion is to give temporary TLs to those with CELTA/DELTA/Trinity TESOLs (and/ or excellent A Levels or similar from US/Aussie etc) and give them four years to get a B.Ed.
 
Have a beast of a grammar exam. Observe those trying to obtain the TL. Get the school or potential teacher to pay for the exams/observations.  Provide the course (B.Ed), charge a small fortune and everyone is happy. The schools keep their good teachers and Thailand saves face by forcing potential teachers into extended study.

Why the beast of a grammar exam?
We need to teach conversation, keep the grammar simple. we're not teaching them to write novels.

[kerrysum]

Here is the point, I have a lot of experience, with Thailand and 'English teachers... the real truth is that if children are going to learn English, they must live in the environment, where English is spoke. Many years ago a friend of mine was upset, his children could not speak English. Personally I advised him for his children to live in a nation where they spoke only English.
Point one? It does not do any good for the kids, if they take English classes and do not have to use them... When they come home, they resort to the dialect in which they know... Just like here in America. My wife is much the same way in her thoughts, she thinks that it is my job to speak her dialect. But I do not, she is living in my country now... I have sent her to school, and college, but sometimes in all honesty they do what is easiest for them.... Just my thoughts.....
I have helped many nieces and nephews in Thailand, but the truth is, when they had to live in an English speaking country, they sure did excel.. It never mattered what country that they wanted to go to. France, or what ever, they knew they had to learn the language.... I am proud of most of them, including my step-daughter...
Kerry

[Lucie]

"The likes of Ajarn Ken are not only limited to the backpacker types or newbie teachers. Some of these guys have been here years, maybe a decade or more. Some may have wives, long term partners and families. Could this crackdown result in the breakup of families all over Thailand?"

 

Me: 11 years teaching in Thailand, and I got pretty good at it, if I may say so myself. My students and their parents were pretty sad to see me leave, but I had to leave, as 11 years experience is not as good as a Bachelors degree in Absolutely-Anything. 

 

I had to leave my husband behind for now, too, as the UK also recently changed some rules about visas....

[casualbiker]

Here is the point, I have a lot of experience, with Thailand and 'English teachers... the real truth is that if children are going to learn English, they must live in the environment, where English is spoke. Many years ago a friend of mine was upset, his children could not speak English. Personally I advised him for his children to live in a nation where they spoke only English.
Point one? It does not do any good for the kids, if they take English classes and do not have to use them... When they come home, they resort to the dialect in which they know... Just like here in America. My wife is much the same way in her thoughts, she thinks that it is my job to speak her dialect. But I do not, she is living in my country now... I have sent her to school, and college, but sometimes in all honesty they do what is easiest for them.... Just my thoughts.....
I have helped many nieces and nephews in Thailand, but the truth is, when they had to live in an English speaking country, they sure did excel.. It never mattered what country that they wanted to go to. France, or what ever, they knew they had to learn the language.... I am proud of most of them, including my step-daughter...
Kerry

Here's the point : you get rid of English conversation (TEFL) teachers and Thai kids will have virtually NO immersion in English. Most Thai teachers use only Thai in class.

But I agree that the best English speaking Thais have generally spent time in an English speaking country. That doesn't mean that Thais living in Thailand can't learn to speak understandable English, they can!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[brewsterbudgen]

Further to my previous post, many TEFLERs work illegally without WPs on non imm visas based on marriage or retirement.
Watch out they will be coming fo you next.
Will they kick out all genuine marriage and retirement holders to 'get'  the illegal TEFLERS who have made a life in Thailand.
Keep looking over your shoulders. 
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Equating changes in visa rules with Nazi Germany is silly and rather sick.

Sent from my GT-S7270L using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[LuckyLew]

 

 

A decent TEFL is what's needed to teach English in Europe, so why does Thailand think it can demand more? The wages?

Isn't this just a way to get rid of native speakers? I expect Filipino and Malaysian English teachers to be the norm soon.

I didn't think you could teach in any children's' school (junior or high) in Europe without a degree.
Same in the USA.

Adult education is different, less qualifications and less wages.

 

A recognised TEFL  is all that is required to teach English in Australia to non English speakers in such things as after school programs and adult education.  Although a degree is desirable it is not  needed. If a visa is wanted for teaching however a degree is required.

 

 

So all TEFL'ers in Thailand can go to Australia ...bon voyage

[harrry]

 

 

 

A decent TEFL is what's needed to teach English in Europe, so why does Thailand think it can demand more? The wages?

Isn't this just a way to get rid of native speakers? I expect Filipino and Malaysian English teachers to be the norm soon.

I didn't think you could teach in any children's' school (junior or high) in Europe without a degree.
Same in the USA.

Adult education is different, less qualifications and less wages.

 

A recognised TEFL  is all that is required to teach English in Australia to non English speakers in such things as after school programs and adult education.  Although a degree is desirable it is not  needed. If a visa is wanted for teaching however a degree is required.

 

 

So all TEFL'ers in Thailand can go to Australia ...bon voyage

 

Well they can if they are Australian citizens or can get any visa which permits working.

[Rorri]

 

Thailand's economy is already heavily tied to China's. Get ready to have more of China's massive debt poured into Thailand. Chinese teachers are here on tourist visas teaching without qualifications, degrees, training or work permits. Thailand will become a financial slave of China if the current trend persists.

so what? america is in the same boat.

 

Why bring up America, in case you missed it, we are concerned about Thailand's future, not that of "America." Many post seem to forget this.

[isawasnake]

To the people running the Thai schools, the morning assembly is of MUCH greater importance than the students' ability to speak English. This is 100% true no two ways about it. Thais seem to be much more concerned with trifles than they are with actual learning and effectiveness. This is an undeniable problem. When the leaders of the schools think in this way, there is simply no way the students are ever going to learn effectively. That is their choice I suppose. Until this stuff changes, all this crap we talk about does not matter at all.

 

I think the answer lies in hiring good people, raising the pay, and letting the foreign teachers have much greater control over the English programs. The more control they have, the more English will be learned. But then again, we get back to the trifles. Thais care more about the control than they do the effectiveness. I don't see it as ever ending myself. 

 

Thais think this would be the end of the world for them, but it really wouldn't. It would be just the beginning. That's what I think is the big problem in this country: Thais thinking "if we let the foreigners in were are done". The products of this new education system could then take over the schools in a generation from now, and they would then be more apt to be effective leaders and teachers given this education. 

Edited July 18, 2014 by isawasnake

[cup-O-coffee]

 

 

There is a good point in the article about the schools having to get themselves in order too.

 

This is so true.

 

When I was teaching, I taught the first 3 months on a tourist visa as the school ensured me that the policy was for all new teachers to work a probation period, after which they'll sort out the Non-B.

 

When the 3 months was up and I needed to get my Non-B they sent me to Laos but they left out some crucial documentation that meant my Non-B visa was rejected upon application. I then had to re-enter Thailand on a 15 day visa exempt stamp (as it was then) to go back to the school so they could correct the mess.

 

Under the new rules, I wouldn't be able to re-enter and all because the school messed up the paperwork for my Non-B visa.

 

It turned out that a school director had forgotten to sign 3 pieces of paper! I then had to go back to Laos afterwards, which was like two trips in the space of a week, where I eventually got my Non-B but the whole episode was a major headache.

 

I'm confused. Was it like two trips in a week or was it actually two trips in the space of a week?

 

 

Dear confused !    Why is this so amazingly important. And why the "like" between it and two. Do you call this good English, i was never taught to keep slipping "like" into my sentences, which is what i hear a lot of today from young English speakers.

 

 

 

Oldsailor, I liked what you said, and I wanted to "like" your post, but I felt guilty. Apologies. LOL
 

[AYJAYDEE]

 

 

Thailand's economy is already heavily tied to China's. Get ready to have more of China's massive debt poured into Thailand. Chinese teachers are here on tourist visas teaching without qualifications, degrees, training or work permits. Thailand will become a financial slave of China if the current trend persists.

so what? america is in the same boat.

 

Why bring up America, in case you missed it, we are concerned about Thailand's future, not that of "America." Many post seem to forget this.

 

leave thailands future to the thais. its none of your business.

[harrry]

 

 

 

There is a good point in the article about the schools having to get themselves in order too.

 

This is so true.

 

When I was teaching, I taught the first 3 months on a tourist visa as the school ensured me that the policy was for all new teachers to work a probation period, after which they'll sort out the Non-B.

 

When the 3 months was up and I needed to get my Non-B they sent me to Laos but they left out some crucial documentation that meant my Non-B visa was rejected upon application. I then had to re-enter Thailand on a 15 day visa exempt stamp (as it was then) to go back to the school so they could correct the mess.

 

Under the new rules, I wouldn't be able to re-enter and all because the school messed up the paperwork for my Non-B visa.

 

It turned out that a school director had forgotten to sign 3 pieces of paper! I then had to go back to Laos afterwards, which was like two trips in the space of a week, where I eventually got my Non-B but the whole episode was a major headache.

 

I'm confused. Was it like two trips in a week or was it actually two trips in the space of a week?

 

 

Dear confused !    Why is this so amazingly important. And why the "like" between it and two. Do you call this good English, i was never taught to keep slipping "like" into my sentences, which is what i hear a lot of today from young English speakers.

 

 

 

Oldsailor, I liked what you said, and I wanted to "like" your post, but I felt guilty. Apologies. LOL
 

 

It was actually only one but felt like it was two because of too much work to do.  Or it was three but felt like two because of the great time in Vientiane.

[Rorri]

 

 

 

Thailand's economy is already heavily tied to China's. Get ready to have more of China's massive debt poured into Thailand. Chinese teachers are here on tourist visas teaching without qualifications, degrees, training or work permits. Thailand will become a financial slave of China if the current trend persists.

so what? america is in the same boat.

 

Why bring up America, in case you missed it, we are concerned about Thailand's future, not that of "America." Many post seem to forget this.

 

leave thailands future to the thais. its none of your business.

 

AYJAYDEE... your comment borders on the ridiculous, I didn't make any comment to say how Thailand should handle its future...you really are a fool. Perhaps many of our english, and maybe non-english, readers could help you. Maybe you should google the definition of "concerned." Most comments of yours do show a "lack" of thought and education and an uncanny knack of not being able to use any education you may have.

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

 

Further to my previous post, many TEFLERs work illegally without WPs on non imm visas based on marriage or retirement.

Watch out they will be coming fo you next.

Will they kick out all genuine marriage and retirement holders to 'get'  the illegal TEFLERS who have made a life in Thailand.

Keep looking over your shoulders. 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Fozzy, where I realize that the thread is visa related to TEFLER's, your above post broadens the "what is wrong with the education system" subject.

 

If a person is in the country visa legal, who's fault is it that he/she is working without a work permit, regardless of their qualifications? Theirs certainly, but it is also the establishment who is employing them as well.

 

If you think the visa crackdown is directed towards TEFLER's, then the next logical step would be towards the companies/schools employing them. At the end of the day it is their (companies/schools) responsibility to provide the work permits, regardless of what you may have been told. Probation periods should be carried out under a work permit, no excuses.

 

IMHO, this is where the problem lies, at least more so than prospective teachers having to do border runs.

[Thai at Heart]

Here is the point, I have a lot of experience, with Thailand and 'English teachers... the real truth is that if children are going to learn English, they must live in the environment, where English is spoke. Many years ago a friend of mine was upset, his children could not speak English. Personally I advised him for his children to live in a nation where they spoke only English.
Point one? It does not do any good for the kids, if they take English classes and do not have to use them... When they come home, they resort to the dialect in which they know... Just like here in America. My wife is much the same way in her thoughts, she thinks that it is my job to speak her dialect. But I do not, she is living in my country now... I have sent her to school, and college, but sometimes in all honesty they do what is easiest for them.... Just my thoughts.....
I have helped many nieces and nephews in Thailand, but the truth is, when they had to live in an English speaking country, they sure did excel.. It never mattered what country that they wanted to go to. France, or what ever, they knew they had to learn the language.... I am proud of most of them, including my step-daughter...
Kerry

You need to go and learn how to raise bilingual children.

[jacky54]

er How come bar girls can learn to speak the lingo in about three months with no grammar knowledge and no teaching? Thais are not daft it's the teachers and Schools that STOP them learning.

[brewsterbudgen]

er How come bar girls can learn to speak the lingo in about three months with no grammar knowledge and no teaching? Thais are not daft it's the teachers and Schools that STOP them learning.

Bargirls have an incentive! Motivated students are always better learners.

[Stokakrishna]

millions of Thais speaking English.

 what a joke.

 take your head  out of your ass and look around you

[Dap]

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

It's true. My wife and all her sisters speak excellent English. One is fluent in French as well.

 

 

Quite possibly, ... exceptions to the rule?
 

[larsjohnsson]

"The likes of Ajarn Ken are not only limited to the backpacker types or newbie teachers. Some of these guys have been here years, maybe a decade or more. Some may have wives, long term partners and families. Could this crackdown result in the breakup of families all over Thailand?"
 
Me: 11 years teaching in Thailand, and I got pretty good at it, if I may say so myself. My students and their parents were pretty sad to see me leave, but I had to leave, as 11 years experience is not as good as a Bachelors degree in Absolutely-Anything. 
 
I had to leave my husband behind for now, too, as the UK also recently changed some rules about visas....

Why would anyone with wife and family that have been here ten years as a teacher need to leave? Why would he have tourist visa and do border runs ? When he can get a one year visa very easy? Edited July 18, 2014 by larsjohnsson

[AnotherOneAmerican]

"The likes of Ajarn Ken are not only limited to the backpacker types or newbie teachers. Some of these guys have been here years, maybe a decade or more. Some may have wives, long term partners and families. Could this crackdown result in the breakup of families all over Thailand?"
 
Me: 11 years teaching in Thailand, and I got pretty good at it, if I may say so myself. My students and their parents were pretty sad to see me leave, but I had to leave, as 11 years experience is not as good as a Bachelors degree in Absolutely-Anything. 
 
I had to leave my husband behind for now, too, as the UK also recently changed some rules about visas....

Why would anyone with wife and family that have been here ten years as a teacher need to leave? Why would he have tourist visa and do border runs, when he can get a one year visa very easy?

because they dont have a teaching degree and theyre broke

[larsjohnsson]

"The likes of Ajarn Ken are not only limited to the backpacker types or newbie teachers. Some of these guys have been here years, maybe a decade or more. Some may have wives, long term partners and families. Could this crackdown result in the breakup of families all over Thailand?"
 
Me: 11 years teaching in Thailand, and I got pretty good at it, if I may say so myself. My students and their parents were pretty sad to see me leave, but I had to leave, as 11 years experience is not as good as a Bachelors degree in Absolutely-Anything. 
 
I had to leave my husband behind for now, too, as the UK also recently changed some rules about visas....

Why would anyone with wife and family that have been here ten years as a teacher need to leave? Why would he have tourist visa and do border runs, when he can get a one year visa very easy?

because they dont have a teaching degree and theyre broke

The thread was about the visa crack down.
It's a lot cheaper to stay with a one year visa. Or an extension of stay because he have a family. Than doing border runs.
If he is broke he have to leave even if the visa runs still would be ok.
Nothing in the new visa crackdown will affect him when he have Thai wife and child Edited July 18, 2014 by larsjohnsson