Gaza and Israel suffer deadliest day

Pralaad · July 21, 2014

Any chance you could produce land ownership papers? because for land to be stolen it needs to be owned

Can you also please tell me the currency of Palestine, it's capital city and its national language, and if you do not mind post letter "P" in Arabic.

Arabs can't have a P in their language and can't pronounce it.

Shhhhh, let him answer it. After all land has been stolen from someone who can not even pronounce its own name

uptheos · July 21, 2014

Any chance you could produce land ownership papers? because for land to be stolen it needs to be owned

Can you also please tell me the currency of Palestine, it's capital city and its national language, and if you do not mind post letter "P" in Arabic.

Arabs can't have a P in their language and can't pronounce it.

Shhhhh, let him answer it. After all land has been stolen from someone who can not even pronounce its own name

Sorry, but it was so obvious that I jumped in. I thought everyone knew that.

CBR250 · July 21, 2014

Why do you people bother to make this stuff up? It is easily refuted. For the millionth time 'Semites" refers to anyone who speaks a Semitic language. It has nothing to do with biology. Plenty of people are Jews who don't practice the religion or believe in it. It is an ethnic group.

Actually, the term "semite" does have a biological basis. The easily accessible Professor Wiki notes:

"Genetic studies indicate that modern Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Mizrahi specifically), Levantine Arabs, Assyrians, Samaritans, Syriacs-Arameans, Maronites, Druze, Mandaeans, and Mhallami, all have an ancient indigenous common Near Eastern heritage which can be genetically mapped back to the ancient Fertile Crescent...."

And if, for the sake of discussion, we focus on linguistics and not biology, Professor Wiki also notes that "Semites" includes anyone who speaks a Semitic language, which includes not only Hebrew speakers, but those who speak Arabic and Aramaic.

However, the term "anti-semitism" is actually not linked to these facts, but instead is the result of political intrigues by some extremely prejudiced Germans from the 19th C, who adopted the term "semitism" as a code for "Jews". It was inaccurate of them, and now their error is kept alive by those who seek to benefit from a belief in the continuing existence of anti-Jewish conspiracies.

But back to the present - I don't see much evidence of anti-semitism here, and I think TV is a rough reflection of western society. Most messages opposing Israeli actions on TV cannot be read as espousing hatred for people who claim to be Jewish by either faith or birth. Rather, the anger seems directed at the state of Israel for its inhumane actions against Palestinian people. One would hope that the Israelis would have learnt better from their own history - the murder of an ethnic group because they have a different belief from your own (and because you can grab their property more easily once they are dead) was the path to the Holocaust.

Edited July 21, 2014 by CBR250

DaveWalsh · July 21, 2014

Why do you people bother to make this stuff up? It is easily refuted. For the millionth time 'Semites" refers to anyone who speaks a Semitic language. It has nothing to do with biology. Plenty of people are Jews who don't practice the religion or believe in it. It is an ethnic group.

Actually, the term "semite" does have a biological basis. The easily accessible Professor Wiki notes:

"Genetic studies indicate that modern Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Mizrahi specifically), Levantine Arabs, Assyrians, Samaritans, Syriacs-Arameans, Maronites, Druze, Mandaeans, and Mhallami, all have an ancient indigenous common Near Eastern heritage which can be genetically mapped back to the ancient Fertile Crescent...."

Not everyone agrees:

http://forward.com/articles/175912/jews-a-race-genetic-theory-comes-under-fierce-atta/?p=all

"The debate touches upon such sensitive issues as whether the Jewish people is a race or a religion, and whether Jews or Palestinians are descended from the original inhabitants of what is now the State of Israel.".

Morch · July 21, 2014

In response to the comment that the Zionist or Jews never declared war on any state perhaps this link might help explain that nasty little spat spanning 1939-1945.

Hardly the innocents as claimed are they and still their war games continue

http://rense.com/general84/declare.htm

From time to time some of us make errors by using unresearched sources, this is an instance of such error of judgement based on lack of research motives and bias of the source.

You guys do realize that foolish article is on all the neo-Nazi, KKK and anti-Semitic websites along with the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion hoax (except they think that it was real)? Did you notice that the Daily Express article does not -- anywhere in the article -- mention any single Jew, either a leader of a group or an individual, by name. Not even one name?
Some organizations are mentioned, like the Board of Deputies of British Jews, who, the article claims, will meet two days later "to discuss the German situation." Ironically, the London Times of March 27 - three days later - reported that the Board of Deputies did not agree with a boycott and the U.K. had one of the largest Jewish populations of western Europe at the time.
A few Jews in the US did call for a boycott and who could blame them - not the one in the article - but most Jews ignored it and the economic effect on Germany was almost nil.This old "article" is nothing but anti-Semitic propaganda of the worst kind.

rense.com, that sort of makes your explanation in a nutshell.

englishoak · July 21, 2014

I'd call it smart guerilla tactics

Putting civilians in danger in your opinion is guerrilla tactics?

I call it cowards behavior

Size of Gaza is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi)

Seeing as they are forcibly walled in where would you suggest those that fight set up ? in a barracks so that Israel can take the lot out in one strike ? because that is exactly what would happen.

Its all very well to keep on about using civilian shields but its not like they have much ground to set up an army base now is it ? less and less every year in fact. Even if they tried to keep the civilian population separate from the armed militia it is virtually impossible given the polulation and its tiny area.

Now moving on, if Israel continue this "invasion" if thats the word for a force occupying anothers land then at some point Jews in other countries will eventually start being targeted. Israel dosnt give a monkeys ass about them its the responsibility of those peoples home nations but it should if it claims to represent Jewish peoples all over the world. (which it does and gladly takes all donations from them )

This is a powder keg and to be honest I don't think Israel cares one bit, in fact im sure it would be only too happy to see it as that way it gets to justify more action.

The only side here that can back off is Israel and now take the peace initiative, its done enough and showed its strong. It holds all the cards and is acting like a bully, its not going to gain respect this way.

Both sides have to live there anyway, its about time to slow this down not escalate it.

When faced with overwhelming odds it can go two ways for a peoples surrender or just dig in, since the Palestinians have nowhere to go they have no choice but to fight.

If Israel cannot see this I would be most surprised. Then again its not the Jewish people that is the problem and never has been, it is the Zionist movement and agenda, and they run the show, good Jewish people have been sacrificed and betrayed by these megalomaniacs along with all other creeds colours and religions for many decades and it continues today.

For me there are good Muslims and radical fundamentalist nutjobs and there are good Jewish and all manner of good people then there are the Megalomaniac Zionists.

Until there is concessions and Palestine have their own land and sovereignty as they have a right to they will not bend the knee there will not be a lasting peace, Israel has been blocking any move towards affording these people their own state, Israel was basically given theirs by the British it wasnt theirs to have according to their own teachings, no wonder its been a place of death and conflict ever since..

Morch · July 21, 2014

That is what the dictionary says:

eth·nic [eth-nik]
adjective
1.
pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

So Israel having been given sole ownership of the land by their imaginary supernatural friend God is now also claiming Palestine on the strength of the Oxford English Dictionary.

gimme a break!

Nonsense. They have sole ownership of Israel, because they accepted the UN deal and because they have won numerous wars that the Arabs started and started and LOST.

The only UN resolution Israel has ever accepted is 181 way back in 1947 recommending the partition of Palestine...the 100s of others since then they have ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

... a selective memory is handy at times, eh?

btw it is illegal in the 21st century according to the UN Charter and the Geneva Convention to annex land occupied in war. It's also illegal to refuse repatriation of refugees who naturally flee during time of war.

Israel has fired the first shot in every single war from 1967 onwards apart from 1973 when Egypt fought to regain Sinai. caught the Israelis on the hop.

Israel did not Annexe the West Bank, same goes for the Gaza Strip.

Israel handed back the Sinai Peninsula on two occasions, and the Gaza Strip once.

The Jews that ran away from Arab countries got nothing back as well, no compensation and no rights.

Israel fired the first shot etc....how many wars were there, by your learned count, after 1973?

And please, do not include each and every border skirmish - war is war.

Morch · July 21, 2014

Of course he is disingenuous. Five Arab armies gathered on Israel's borders in 1967 and Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping. Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw. He challenged Israel to fight almost daily, "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." The Arabs asked for a fight and they got it!

You admit then that israel fired the first shot bombing Egyptian airports.

Israel always fires the first shot as it has done so again in Gaza now, then hunts around for a pretext to justify itself.

And it had nothing to do with the fact Hamas were firing rockets at Israel. Israel fired the first shot? incredible.

I would have to say you are trolling this topic. I haven't read one comment of yours that has any credibility to it.

- 15 May the 2 consecutive killings of Palestinian teenagers in cold blood captured on CCTV cameras

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beitunia_killings

- 11 June: Israeli air strike kills two Palestinians, including one child.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/timeline-israel-gaza-conflict-1595503520#sthash.vLkZ1NwV.dpuf

...the day before the 3 Israeli teenagers were kidnapped which supposedly started this whole furore.

>>I haven't read one comment of yours that has any credibility to it.

...your problem if you fail to research my posts.

There's nothing to research. You just set an arbitrary date as a start line and went on from there.

There's no special reason to choose the date you came up with, unless one wishes to make a weak

disingenuous argument. The notion that it all started with the kidnapping is an opinion, not fact.

Morch · July 21, 2014

...the Israeli government seems to be able to when they quote 120 militants killed. are they fifth columnist spies too along with respected BBC journalists?

I asked you a simple question , i even went further to elaborate to make sure you understood

Is it too hard to answer? no google searches to post someone else's opinion?

just read the BBC item yourself and argue with the BBC reporter about his sources and credibility. neither you nor I were there, but somehow you appear to have more detailed information.

The story clearly states the source, nothing to argue about:

More than 500 Palestinians, mainly civilians, have been killed since the Israeli offensive began 13 days ago, Gaza's health ministry says.

Whether one accepts this data as fact, considering the source, or not - is, as often said in Thailand, "up to you".

The same goes for the IDF figures of 120 Hamas militants killed.

That the figure appeared in a BBC report does not mean it is a fact, or they would simply state it as such, probably

without bothering to repeatedly point out where it came from. Not perfect journalism, but better than naught.

If one goes back to previous instances of the conflict. variations in reported casualty figures during and after the

hostilities are not uncommon. Many a time they are not resolved, and many a time information is missing.

Morch · July 21, 2014

Although still shocking, the death ratio between the bully and the bullied is getting better.

Excuse me, but there is absolutely nothing ameliorative to be found in death ratios. All the deaths are a result of poor political decsions being made on both sides. Over the past few days the tragic deathtoll has risen on both sides as a direct result of a particularly poor decision by Netanyahu to escalate his response to the poor decisions made by Hamas with his ill-fated ground invasion. The only silver lining is that perhaps Netanyahu will be forced, somehow, to resign just as his mentor Begin resigned within a year of Begin's equally bad and ill-fated political decision to invade Lebanon back in 1982.

Highly unlikely unless Netanyahu manages to get Israel entangled in the Gaza Strip, and doubtful he is seriously

contemplating a new occupation. That would go against the wished of most Israelis, even those on the right wing.

Barring this, very hard to say how much of an effect this will have on his political future, what with the situation in

the Middle East being so volatile. Also, Netanyahu does not posses even an ounce of Begin's integrity.

Morch · July 21, 2014

You miss the point completely, but then, you don't want to get the point. Like all pro-Israelis you point blank refuse to see the immense inequity between the two sides, the huge difference in defence or attack capability, and the greatly disproportionate amount of damage/death inflicted in this tit-for-tat long-running conflict.

You also fail to acknowledge that Israel ties Palestinian hands behind their backs. The fights them. Cowards. Murderous cowards the lot of them.

Maybe the American pro-Israeli stance is not because of the Jewish lobby ( maybe), but maybe it's because the US was founded on a similar scenario; Indigenous people, overrun and killed with superior forces in number and armament, for their land. You can hardly condemn Israel for doing the same thing.

You are spot on for a change, i have missed the point.

So lets try again.

I asked you simple question twice now and twice you have responded with unrelated or at times incoherent response.

So, let me ask you again, feel free to ask if you do not understand any part of the question.

So my question to you again is

It is Hamas who is firing rockets and refusing ceasefire, so you would think it would be Hamas fighting IDF, right?

So could you explain why Hamas hardly suffers any casualties ? Is it because they are hiding like rats or the number of civilians is not a truthful number and a huge number of people In that list are actually Hamas fighters ?
You are spot on here. Hamas issued directives to the press that all casualties be referred to as civilians and every report end with the latest death toll, a request which alas much of the western media seems happy to go along with. It should be remembered that in the aftermath of operation cast lead Hamas belatedly admitted that half of the deaths claimed to be civilian were infact Hamas operatives.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Lies.

I read exactly what you are referring to, and it wasn't a "directive to the press", it was (supposedly...) a recommendation to what Hamas supporters should do to further its propaganda.

This is what you are talking about...it's hardly an unbiased source given that Alan Dershowitz, Ehud Barak, and many other Pro-Israel supporters are members of its board of advisors...

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8076.htma

What kind of lala land do you live in where you think the BBC and New York Times and co. are going to be just happily taking orders from Hamas?

I don't know about Memri's version, but something of the sort was on a few Palestinian government Facebook pages a few days ago. And there are similar emails doing the rounds, although can't say whether they are genuine or copies or what. Guess it can be checked via electronicintifada if one was really interested, then again, they could just as probably be the source...

Morch · July 21, 2014

I'd call it smart guerilla tactics

Putting civilians in danger in your opinion is guerrilla tactics?

I call it cowards behavior

Size of Gaza is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi)

Seeing as they are forcibly walled in where would you suggest those that fight set up ? in a barracks so that Israel can take the lot out in one strike ? because that is exactly what would happen.

Its all very well to keep on about using civilian shields but its not like they have much ground to set up an army base now is it ? less and less every year in fact. Even if they tried to keep the civilian population separate from the armed militia it is virtually impossible given the polulation and its tiny area.

Now moving on, if Israel continue this "invasion" if thats the word for a force occupying anothers land then at some point Jews in other countries will eventually start being targeted. Israel dosnt give a monkeys ass about them its the responsibility of those peoples home nations but it should if it claims to represent Jewish peoples all over the world. (which it does and gladly takes all donations from them )

This is a powder keg and to be honest I don't think Israel cares one bit, in fact im sure it would be only too happy to see it as that way it gets to justify more action.

The only side here that can back off is Israel and now take the peace initiative, its done enough and showed its strong. It holds all the cards and is acting like a bully, its not going to gain respect this way.

Both sides have to live there anyway, its about time to slow this down not escalate it.

When faced with overwhelming odds it can go two ways for a peoples surrender or just dig in, since the Palestinians have nowhere to go they have no choice but to fight.

If Israel cannot see this I would be most surprised. Then again its not the Jewish people that is the problem and never has been, it is the Zionist movement and agenda, and they run the show, good Jewish people have been sacrificed and betrayed by these megalomaniacs along with all other creeds colours and religions for many decades and it continues today.

For me there are good Muslims and radical fundamentalist nutjobs and there are good Jewish and all manner of good people then there are the Megalomaniac Zionists.

Until there is concessions and Palestine have their own land and sovereignty as they have a right to they will not bend the knee there will not be a lasting peace, Israel has been blocking any move towards affording these people their own state, Israel was basically given theirs by the British it wasnt theirs to have according to their own teachings, no wonder its been a place of death and conflict ever since..

Most Israelis, other than Arabs and Orthodox Jews, will probably define themselves as Zionist. What this definition means to them may be varied, but one of the basic ideas as to having a right for the land (disregard the, in turn, also varied, reasoning for this). Doesn't mean everyone supports right wing parties, doesn't mean everyone is religious. It's pretty much like what was attributed in your post to the Palestinians - they ain't going nowhere, and most do not feel that they have somewhere else to go.

That was to address the distinction made between Jews and Zionists. Doesn't quite work this way in real life. No easy definitions. Probably run into a similar confusion when asking Arab Israelis about being Palestinian. Not quite the same, but still...

Seeing as trust is in short supply between the sides, and that the Palestinians lack a coherent leadership, it would be rather hard for Israel to make one sided concessions, without assurances. Sadly, these are also in short supply at the moment.

Excuse me if I mostly refrain from actual discussion concerning historical, biblical and religious claims to the land. While certainly a fascinating topic by itself, it is not in reality a main issue nowadays, but fluff. Non of the sides would ever cede its claim even if by some chance a clear cut conclusion could be reached. Both sides are here to stay, and that's that. Need to deal with the present and the future, less with the distant past.

englishoak · July 21, 2014

I'd call it smart guerilla tactics

Putting civilians in danger in your opinion is guerrilla tactics?

I call it cowards behavior

Size of Gaza is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi)

Seeing as they are forcibly walled in where would you suggest those that fight set up ? in a barracks so that Israel can take the lot out in one strike ? because that is exactly what would happen.

Its all very well to keep on about using civilian shields but its not like they have much ground to set up an army base now is it ? less and less every year in fact. Even if they tried to keep the civilian population separate from the armed militia it is virtually impossible given the polulation and its tiny area.

Now moving on, if Israel continue this "invasion" if thats the word for a force occupying anothers land then at some point Jews in other countries will eventually start being targeted. Israel dosnt give a monkeys ass about them its the responsibility of those peoples home nations but it should if it claims to represent Jewish peoples all over the world. (which it does and gladly takes all donations from them )

This is a powder keg and to be honest I don't think Israel cares one bit, in fact im sure it would be only too happy to see it as that way it gets to justify more action.

The only side here that can back off is Israel and now take the peace initiative, its done enough and showed its strong. It holds all the cards and is acting like a bully, its not going to gain respect this way.

Both sides have to live there anyway, its about time to slow this down not escalate it.

When faced with overwhelming odds it can go two ways for a peoples surrender or just dig in, since the Palestinians have nowhere to go they have no choice but to fight.

If Israel cannot see this I would be most surprised. Then again its not the Jewish people that is the problem and never has been, it is the Zionist movement and agenda, and they run the show, good Jewish people have been sacrificed and betrayed by these megalomaniacs along with all other creeds colours and religions for many decades and it continues today.

For me there are good Muslims and radical fundamentalist nutjobs and there are good Jewish and all manner of good people then there are the Megalomaniac Zionists.

Until there is concessions and Palestine have their own land and sovereignty as they have a right to they will not bend the knee there will not be a lasting peace, Israel has been blocking any move towards affording these people their own state, Israel was basically given theirs by the British it wasnt theirs to have according to their own teachings, no wonder its been a place of death and conflict ever since..

Most Israelis, other than Arabs and Orthodox Jews, will probably define themselves as Zionist. What this definition

means to them may be varied, but one of the basic ideas as to having a right for the land (disregard the, in turn, also

varied, reasoning for this). Doesn't mean everyone supports right wing parties, doesn't mean everyone is religious.

It's pretty much like what was attributed in your post to the Palestinians - they ain't going nowhere, and most do not

feel that they have somewhere else to go.

That was to address the distinction made between Jews and Zionists. Doesn't quite work this way in real life. No easy

definitions. Probably run into a similar confusion when asking Arab Israelis about being Palestinian. Not quite the same,

but still...

Seeing as trust is in short supply between the sides, and that the Palestinians lack a coherent leadership, it would be

rather hard for Israel to make one sided concessions, without assurances. Sadly, these are also in short supply at the

moment.

Excuse me if I mostly refrain from actual discussion concerning historical, biblical and religious claims to the land. While

certainly a fascinating topic by itself, it is not in reality a main issue nowadays, but fluff. Non of the sides would ever cede

its claim even if by some chance a clear cut conclusion could be reached. Both sides are here to stay, and that's that.

Need to deal with the present and the future, less with the distant past.

Well I dont claim to know half the Jewish Israeli population there but I do know quite a few Israeli jews and I dont know hardly any that class themselves as zionists and they seem to well understand the difference. Could be those that I do know arnt openly right wing or perhaps im just lucky or its that I don't associate with people that are intolerant of others.

trust dosnt really come into the 2 state problem. "every dog needs a home" and with people its an even more profound need. Trust comes later a home comes first imo and the two arnt the same.

One could argue the concessions have so far all been on the Palestinian side, ( loss of land ) Israeli settlements etc. they arnt growing any more land and it is in short supply as it is.

I dont think the past can be separated from the present as both sides have it ingrained, Israel needs to accept she has to afford the same to others as was afforded to her creation. To do otherwise imo is to dishonour its existence in the first place... but your right for this topic it can be left to one side.

Exactly what im saying both are there and its more than overdue to settle this and get this 2 state sorted.

In the meantime Israel needs to step back from this ASAP and stop the killing of civilians. It can defend itself Gaza cannot.

Everything starts with a small step what must be pushed by the international community is finally the question to the Palestinian problem of a place to call home ... without walls, without persecution and without fear.

Yes I know its going to be hard but thats never stopped Jews before, its time they used that tenacity for the good of others and themselves again and set a good example, not this.

Edited July 21, 2014 by englishoak

Jingthing · July 21, 2014

In my opinion any Jew is a Zionist who answers YES to this kind of general question:

Do you feel supportive of the right of Israel to exist as the nation state of the Jewish people?

(Not meaning 100 percent Jews of course.)

A person answering yes could be an atheist, could be far left wing politically, but if he answers yes, he is a Zionist.

Of course you don't have to be a Jew to be pro Zionist.

No way do you need to be right wing settler or pro west bank settler to be a Zionist!

In my opinion, over 90 percent of global Jews would answer yes to the question I posed. In my view, that makes them Zionists.

NeverSure · July 21, 2014

The only UN resolution Israel has ever accepted is 181 way back in 1947 recommending the partition of Palestine...the 100s of others since then they have ignored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

... a selective memory is handy at times, eh?

btw it is illegal in the 21st century according to the UN Charter and the Geneva Convention to annex land occupied in war. It's also illegal to refuse repatriation of refugees who naturally flee during time of war.

Israel has fired the first shot in every single war from 1967 onwards apart from 1973 when Egypt fought to regain Sinai. caught the Israelis on the hop.

How sweet. Such niceties. "It is illegal."

Who the hell does the UN think it is, telling a sovereign nation what it can and can't do? I have news for you. The UN has no power.

You are disingenuous in saying that Israel fired the first shot... In 1967 several countries were gathering to attack Israel. Israel learned of it and hit with pre-emptive strikes and blew their enemies away in just 6 days. So, yeah, Israel fired the first shot(s) to save its country from what was going to happen to it.

I continue to be amazed that some people think countries should cede their sovereignty to wimpy PC do-nothings such as the UN. Sign and follow enough UN rules and you won't even have a country anymore - just as is happening in Europe.

So there we have it, you admit Israel doesn't give a hoot about the only legal global body that exists...... the UN. ..except of course when you need to quote the 1947 partition plan.

You admit then that Israel It is a truly a rogue, pariah state.

The UN would have more teeth if the US had more control over its spoilt brat instead of being the sole country to veto any vote that condemns israeli behavior

It's time Israel came in from the cold and accepted 21st century standards of civilization.

"there we have it, you admit Israel doesn't give a hoot about the only legal global body that exists....."

Where did I admit that that the UN is a "legal global body?"

" ..except of course when you need to quote the 1947 partition plan."

The UN was a completely different body in 1947 and could have gone on to be a legitimate resource. Now it's tainted with so many communist and Islamic extremist countries I can't imagine a credible sovereign country giving it the time of day.

"You admit then that Israel It is a truly a rogue, pariah state."

Where did I say that? I think the UN is a rogue, pariah organization.

"The UN would have more teeth if the US had more control over its spoilt brat instead of being the sole country to veto any vote that condemns israeli behavior."

To the contrary, the US has refused to ever sign any of the major UN resolutions or conventions. Unlike wimp countries, it won't be ruled.

The UN doesn't rule Israel. Get over it.

cdnvic · July 21, 2014

Some people really need to chill out here. I cleaned up some of the most recent comments that were borderline, if not outright antisemitism.

Morch · July 21, 2014

Size of Gaza is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi)

Seeing as they are forcibly walled in where would you suggest those that fight set up ? in a barracks so that Israel can take the lot out in one strike ? because that is exactly what would happen.

Its all very well to keep on about using civilian shields but its not like they have much ground to set up an army base now is it ? less and less every year in fact. Even if they tried to keep the civilian population separate from the armed militia it is virtually impossible given the polulation and its tiny area.

Now moving on, if Israel continue this "invasion" if thats the word for a force occupying anothers land then at some point Jews in other countries will eventually start being targeted. Israel dosnt give a monkeys ass about them its the responsibility of those peoples home nations but it should if it claims to represent Jewish peoples all over the world. (which it does and gladly takes all donations from them )

This is a powder keg and to be honest I don't think Israel cares one bit, in fact im sure it would be only too happy to see it as that way it gets to justify more action.

The only side here that can back off is Israel and now take the peace initiative, its done enough and showed its strong. It holds all the cards and is acting like a bully, its not going to gain respect this way.

Both sides have to live there anyway, its about time to slow this down not escalate it.

When faced with overwhelming odds it can go two ways for a peoples surrender or just dig in, since the Palestinians have nowhere to go they have no choice but to fight.

If Israel cannot see this I would be most surprised. Then again its not the Jewish people that is the problem and never has been, it is the Zionist movement and agenda, and they run the show, good Jewish people have been sacrificed and betrayed by these megalomaniacs along with all other creeds colours and religions for many decades and it continues today.

For me there are good Muslims and radical fundamentalist nutjobs and there are good Jewish and all manner of good people then there are the Megalomaniac Zionists.

Until there is concessions and Palestine have their own land and sovereignty as they have a right to they will not bend the knee there will not be a lasting peace, Israel has been blocking any move towards affording these people their own state, Israel was basically given theirs by the British it wasnt theirs to have according to their own teachings, no wonder its been a place of death and conflict ever since..

Most Israelis, other than Arabs and Orthodox Jews, will probably define themselves as Zionist. What this definition

means to them may be varied, but one of the basic ideas as to having a right for the land (disregard the, in turn, also

varied, reasoning for this). Doesn't mean everyone supports right wing parties, doesn't mean everyone is religious.

It's pretty much like what was attributed in your post to the Palestinians - they ain't going nowhere, and most do not

feel that they have somewhere else to go.

That was to address the distinction made between Jews and Zionists. Doesn't quite work this way in real life. No easy

definitions. Probably run into a similar confusion when asking Arab Israelis about being Palestinian. Not quite the same,

but still...

Seeing as trust is in short supply between the sides, and that the Palestinians lack a coherent leadership, it would be

rather hard for Israel to make one sided concessions, without assurances. Sadly, these are also in short supply at the

moment.

Excuse me if I mostly refrain from actual discussion concerning historical, biblical and religious claims to the land. While

certainly a fascinating topic by itself, it is not in reality a main issue nowadays, but fluff. Non of the sides would ever cede

its claim even if by some chance a clear cut conclusion could be reached. Both sides are here to stay, and that's that.

Need to deal with the present and the future, less with the distant past.

Well I dont claim to know half the Jewish Israeli population there but I do know quite a few Israeli jews and I dont know hardly any that class themselves as zionists and they seem to well understand the difference. Could be those that I do know arnt openly right wing or perhaps im just lucky or its that I don't associate with people that are intolerant of others.

trust dosnt really come into the 2 state problem. "every dog needs a home" and with people its an even more profound need. Trust comes later a home comes first imo and the two arnt the same.

One could argue the concessions have so far all been on the Palestinian side, ( loss of land ) Israeli settlements etc. they arnt growing any more land and it is in short supply as it is.

I dont think the past can be separated from the present as both sides have it ingrained, Israel needs to accept she has to afford the same to others as was afforded to her creation. To do otherwise imo is to dishonour its existence in the first place... but your right for this topic it can be left to one side.

Exactly what im saying both are there and its more than overdue to settle this and get this 2 state sorted.

In the meantime Israel needs to step back from this ASAP and stop the killing of civilians. It can defend itself Gaza cannot.

Everything starts with a small step what must be pushed by the international community is finally the question to the Palestinian problem of a place to call home ... without walls, without persecution and without fear.

Yes I know its going to be hard but thats never stopped Jews before, its time they used that tenacity for the good of others and themselves again and set a good example, not this.

Well, seems like that would come down to how you, personally, define Zionism. Since your friends seem to "understand the difference" (between what, defining oneself as a Jew or as a Zionist? I think it's not really an either/or sort of thing) I would imagine you have some way to convey this? Not baiting, just not really clear what was meant by this.

Many Israelis who vote for left, pro-peace parties still define themselves as Zionist, and so do these parties. It does not have much to to with intolerance as well. Might be easier to think about it as a scale, with some right wingers taking it all the way up, others applying a more "moderate" version. Many of the latter ones would see Israel's right as relevant to the 1967 lines, for example. Maybe calling it a more realist (or pragmatist) Zionism will make what I'm getting at clearer.

Saying home before trust etc., could be morally right. On a practical level, Israel is not very likely to make meaningful concessions (disregard the current Israeli government and their ilk, they're not into that anyway, lets assume a somewhat more reasonable government) if it feels greatly threatened and insecure. This is an issue which, in the interest of getting a viable long term arrangement, it is better to address. This is more in line with not being right, but being smart - solving the conflict instead of winning it.

In much the same way, it is true that the Palestinians have lost more, so far. If that counts as "concessions" or not, I do not know. Frankly, it does not seem to matter much how it is tagged. There is a current situation and conditions, trick is to work something out of that and move forward. Concessions in the way I meant originally had less to do with land, as most of the West Bank should definitely be handed back, perhaps some bits and pieces which can be sorted otherwise. Was thinking more along the lines of concessions relating to Israelis basic security fears, though. If these are properlly addressed, takes a lot of the edge off the right wing arguments.

The Gaza fighting, at least this round, will probably be over in not too long, unless something dramatic happens. There was an Israeli ex-minister commenting on this yesterday, saying the government ought to realize that this is not a win by knockout situation, and that it is better to set limited realizable goals (military, as far as I understood) short term, shoot for the stars (more in a diplomatic sense) long term.

A lot of what you say, I can agree with. The part I'm missing is the dance partner. All very well to say that the Palestinians deserve better (and they do), but without them stepping up this is not going to happen. Finding ways to mend their own rifts would be a start, at least then it would be clearer who speaks for them.

dexterm · July 21, 2014

Any chance you could produce land ownership papers? because for land to be stolen it needs to be owned

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685

A Palestinian Christian family that preaches non-violence from a farm in the West Bank is battling to hold on to land it has owned for 98 years. Now surrounded by Israeli settlements, the family is a living example of the idea of peaceful resistance.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- Moshe Dayan, April 1969, Ha'aretz; quoted in Edward Said, 'Zionism from the Standpoint of Its Victims', Social Text, Volume 1, 1979, 7-58.

Can you also please tell me the currency of Palestine,

...one day it will be shekels. When israel absorbs the people it is occupying

dexterm · July 21, 2014

Size of Gaza is 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and from 6 to 12 kilometers (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 365 square kilometers (141 sq mi)

Seeing as they are forcibly walled in where would you suggest those that fight set up ? in a barracks so that Israel can take the lot out in one strike ? because that is exactly what would happen.

Its all very well to keep on about using civilian shields but its not like they have much ground to set up an army base now is it ? less and less every year in fact. Even if they tried to keep the civilian population separate from the armed militia it is virtually impossible given the polulation and its tiny area.

Now moving on, if Israel continue this "invasion" if thats the word for a force occupying anothers land then at some point Jews in other countries will eventually start being targeted. Israel dosnt give a monkeys ass about them its the responsibility of those peoples home nations but it should if it claims to represent Jewish peoples all over the world. (which it does and gladly takes all donations from them )

This is a powder keg and to be honest I don't think Israel cares one bit, in fact im sure it would be only too happy to see it as that way it gets to justify more action.

The only side here that can back off is Israel and now take the peace initiative, its done enough and showed its strong. It holds all the cards and is acting like a bully, its not going to gain respect this way.

Both sides have to live there anyway, its about time to slow this down not escalate it.

When faced with overwhelming odds it can go two ways for a peoples surrender or just dig in, since the Palestinians have nowhere to go they have no choice but to fight.

If Israel cannot see this I would be most surprised. Then again its not the Jewish people that is the problem and never has been, it is the Zionist movement and agenda, and they run the show, good Jewish people have been sacrificed and betrayed by these megalomaniacs along with all other creeds colours and religions for many decades and it continues today.

For me there are good Muslims and radical fundamentalist nutjobs and there are good Jewish and all manner of good people then there are the Megalomaniac Zionists.

Until there is concessions and Palestine have their own land and sovereignty as they have a right to they will not bend the knee there will not be a lasting peace, Israel has been blocking any move towards affording these people their own state, Israel was basically given theirs by the British it wasnt theirs to have according to their own teachings, no wonder its been a place of death and conflict ever since..

Most Israelis, other than Arabs and Orthodox Jews, will probably define themselves as Zionist. What this definition

means to them may be varied, but one of the basic ideas as to having a right for the land (disregard the, in turn, also

varied, reasoning for this). Doesn't mean everyone supports right wing parties, doesn't mean everyone is religious.

It's pretty much like what was attributed in your post to the Palestinians - they ain't going nowhere, and most do not

feel that they have somewhere else to go.

That was to address the distinction made between Jews and Zionists. Doesn't quite work this way in real life. No easy

definitions. Probably run into a similar confusion when asking Arab Israelis about being Palestinian. Not quite the same,

but still...

Seeing as trust is in short supply between the sides, and that the Palestinians lack a coherent leadership, it would be

rather hard for Israel to make one sided concessions, without assurances. Sadly, these are also in short supply at the

moment.

Excuse me if I mostly refrain from actual discussion concerning historical, biblical and religious claims to the land. While

certainly a fascinating topic by itself, it is not in reality a main issue nowadays, but fluff. Non of the sides would ever cede

its claim even if by some chance a clear cut conclusion could be reached. Both sides are here to stay, and that's that.

Need to deal with the present and the future, less with the distant past.

Well I dont claim to know half the Jewish Israeli population there but I do know quite a few Israeli jews and I dont know hardly any that class themselves as zionists and they seem to well understand the difference. Could be those that I do know arnt openly right wing or perhaps im just lucky or its that I don't associate with people that are intolerant of others.

trust dosnt really come into the 2 state problem. "every dog needs a home" and with people its an even more profound need. Trust comes later a home comes first imo and the two arnt the same.

One could argue the concessions have so far all been on the Palestinian side, ( loss of land ) Israeli settlements etc. they arnt growing any more land and it is in short supply as it is.

I dont think the past can be separated from the present as both sides have it ingrained, Israel needs to accept she has to afford the same to others as was afforded to her creation. To do otherwise imo is to dishonour its existence in the first place... but your right for this topic it can be left to one side.

Exactly what im saying both are there and its more than overdue to settle this and get this 2 state sorted.

In the meantime Israel needs to step back from this ASAP and stop the killing of civilians. It can defend itself Gaza cannot.

Everything starts with a small step what must be pushed by the international community is finally the question to the Palestinian problem of a place to call home ... without walls, without persecution and without fear.

Yes I know its going to be hard but thats never stopped Jews before, its time they used that tenacity for the good of others and themselves again and set a good example, not this.

Well, seems like that would come down to how you, personally, define Zionism. Since your friends seem to "understand

the difference" (between what, defining oneself as a Jew or as a Zionist? I think it's not really an either/or sort of thing) I

would imagine you have some way to convey this? Not baiting, just not really clear what was meant by this.

Many Israelis who vote for left, pro-peace parties still define themselves as Zionist, and so do these parties. It does not

have much to to with intolerance as well. Might be easier to think about it as a scale, with some right wingers taking it

all the way up, others applying a more "moderate" version. Many of the latter ones would see Israel's right as relevant

to the 1967 lines, for example. Maybe calling it a more realist (or pragmatist) Zionism will make what I'm getting at clearer.

Saying home before trust etc., could be morally right. On a practical level, Israel is not very likely to make meaningful

concessions (disregard the current Israeli government and their ilk, they're not into that anyway, lets assume a somewhat

more reasonable government) if it feels greatly threatened and insecure. This is an issue which, in the interest of getting

a viable long term arrangement, it is better to address. This is more in line with not being right, but being smart - solving

the conflict instead of winning it.

In much the same way, it is true that the Palestinians have lost more, so far. If that counts as "concessions" or not, I do

not know. Frankly, it does not seem to matter much how it is tagged. There is a current situation and conditions, trick is

to work something out of that and move forward. Concessions in the way I meant originally had less to do with land, as

most of the West Bank should definitely be handed back, perhaps some bits and pieces which can be sorted otherwise.

Was thinking more along the lines of concessions relating to Israelis basic security fears, though. If these are properlly

addressed, takes a lot of the edge off the right wing arguments.

The Gaza fighting, at least this round, will probably be over in not too long, unless something dramatic happens.

There was an Israeli ex-minister commenting on this yesterday, saying the government ought to realize that this is not

a win by knockout situation, and that it is better to set limited realizable goals (military, as far as I understood) short term,

shoot for the stars (more in a diplomatic sense) long term.

A lot of what you say, I can agree with. The part I'm missing is the dance partner. All very well to say that the Palestinians

deserve better (and they do), but without them stepping up this is not going to happen. Finding ways to mend their own

rifts would be a start, at least then it would be clearer who speaks for them.

Abbas could be working on this now. Offer passive resistance to Israeli occupation.

1. It won’t give Israel an excuse to deport them from their homes

2. Both sides get used to peaceful co-existence, and its benefits

3. It may make Israel come to its senses about a realistic viable 2 state solution with permanent recognized secure borders, rather than if they delay much longer having to absorb the Palestinians into a one state solution.

siampolee · July 21, 2014

Simple1 post # 96

From time to time some of us make errors by using unresearched sources, this is an instance of such error of judgement based on lack of research motives and bias of the source.

Note the article concerning the matter you dispute which was published in a British newspaper at the time.

Perhaps you should check this worlds modern history too. so as the facts you quote are truthful not distorted by those with an interest in matters.

Links provided below

http://guardian.150m.com/jews/jews-declare-war.htm

dexterm · July 21, 2014

Why do you people bother to make this stuff up? It is easily refuted. For the millionth time 'Semites" refers to anyone who speaks a Semitic language. It has nothing to do with biology. Plenty of people are Jews who don't practice the religion or believe in it. It is an ethnic group.

Looking at all the new "Warriors" i would have to guess some old ones making new accounts,hard to believe so many different people would keep on posting same rubbish over and over again

Well stop posting then.

Seastallion · July 21, 2014

Some people really need to chill out here. I cleaned up some of the most recent comments that were borderline, if not outright antisemitism.

A valid question and pertinent to the thread; Why is anti-semitism intolerable (not just on TVF but generally in the West), but anti-Palestinian feelings and anti-Muslim sentiments tolerated?

We have a group of people who were persecuted in history, and suffered immense loss 70 years ago. This same group of people are now occupying the lands of, and severely persecuting, another group of people. We have a new underdog.

Jews are no longer the underdogs.

Zionist media tries very hard to maintain the underdog status in the eyes of the world but it is fallacy. Why do they do it? Because they need support to continue their decidedly criminal actions. Settling in occupied land is illegal by international law. But settlements are what they want. They want more land (wherever there is water) and more Jewish immigrants to enlarge the Jewish State.

I sincerely struggle to understand the attitude of non-Jewish supporters of Israel. It is as clear as day that Isreal is trying to expand and committing crimes and atrocities to do it. The apologists that cite "thousands of rockets" refuse to acknowledge that the rockets, aside from inflicting relatively little damage (relative to the damage Israeli weapons inflict on Gaza), are coming from freedom fighters fighting an aggressive occupier.

The Palestinians are the underdogs, brutally suppressed by Israel and unfairly treated by the West. If it was a different indigenous people invaded by a different occupier/settler, the UN would be doing something. But the Zionist lobby and the Zionist propaganda machine keeps certain UN members (mainly the US and Russia, and that's more than enough veto) off the subject of Israel's crimes.

dexterm · July 21, 2014

How low can Israel go?

Israeli tanks have shelled a hospital in the central Gaza Strip, killing at least five people and wounding at least another 50.

According to early reports the third floor of the al-Aqsa Hospital in Deir al-Balah had been hit by at least three tank shells on Monday.

The interesting thing is Netanyahu's spokesperson Mark Regev's knee jerk propaganda reaction..

"You are allowed to hit targets where their [Hamas] war machine is using to hide rockets."

"I have no doubt Hamas uses, has used and continues to use, hospitals … we do not target civilians," Regev said.

"But I am not aware of this specific situation."

dexterm · July 21, 2014

Some people really need to chill out here. I cleaned up some of the most recent comments that were borderline, if not outright antisemitism.

A valid question and pertinent to the thread; Why is anti-semitism intolerable (not just on TVF but generally in the West), but anti-Palestinian feelings and anti-Muslim sentiments tolerated?

We have a group of people who were persecuted in history, and suffered immense loss 70 years ago. This same group of people are now occupying the lands of, and severely persecuting, another group of people. We have a new underdog.

Jews are no longer the underdogs.

Zionist media tries very hard to maintain the underdog status in the eyes of the world but it is fallacy. Why do they do it? Because they need support to continue their decidedly criminal actions. Settling in occupied land is illegal by international law. But settlements are what they want. They want more land (wherever there is water) and more Jewish immigrants to enlarge the Jewish State.

I sincerely struggle to understand the attitude of non-Jewish supporters of Israel. It is as clear as day that Isreal is trying to expand and committing crimes and atrocities to do it. The apologists that cite "thousands of rockets" refuse to acknowledge that the rockets, aside from inflicting relatively little damage (relative to the damage Israeli weapons inflict on Gaza), are coming from freedom fighters fighting an aggressive occupier.

The Palestinians are the underdogs, brutally suppressed by Israel and unfairly treated by the West. If it was a different indigenous people invaded by a different occupier/settler, the UN would be doing something. But the Zionist lobby and the Zionist propaganda machine keeps certain UN members (mainly the US and Russia, and that's more than enough veto) off the subject of Israel's crimes.

Good post. I agree 100%.

I have never ever made an anti semitic remark, and never will do. Racism/religionism is anathema to me.. I can’t understand it. It’s a crutch for people with low self esteem.

I cannot hate anyone in this world purely on the grounds of their skin color, shape of their eyelids, language or religion. It’s against my nature. Although I think all religions are nutty, but I would defend to the hilt people's right to be nutty if they want to be.

But I can hate a Zionist government who murders innocent civilians.

There is a huge difference between Zionist, Israeli, and Jew. It’s people like Netanyahu and some posters on this forum who try to blur the difference.

Johpa · July 22, 2014

I sincerely struggle to understand the attitude of non-Jewish supporters of Israel. It is as clear as day that Isreal is trying to expand and committing crimes and atrocities to do it. The apologists that cite "thousands of rockets" refuse to acknowledge that the rockets, aside from inflicting relatively little damage (relative to the damage Israeli weapons inflict on Gaza), are coming from freedom fighters fighting an aggressive occupier.
The Palestinians are the underdogs, brutally suppressed by Israel and unfairly treated by the West. If it was a different indigenous people invaded by a different occupier/settler, the UN would be doing something. But the Zionist lobby and the Zionist propaganda machine keeps certain UN members (mainly the US and Russia, and that's more than enough veto) off the subject of Israel's crimes.

Israel is simply attempting to survive in the face of an implacable enemy dedicated to the destruction of their nation-state. There is no occupation of Gaza as the Israelis retreated from Gaza in a forlorn attempt in a land-for-peace deal that of course failed to deliver any peace, although that failure pretty much eviscerated the Israeli "peace movement" of that time. The Palestinians are indeed perceived as underdogs, but are equally supressed politically by both Israel and Hamas. I agree, they, the Palestinians, are not treated fairly by the West. Neither the UN, nor the pro-Palestinian groups in the West have said boo regarding the occupation of Tibet by the Han Chinese, the occupation of northern Sri Lanka by Tamils, the lack of self-determination for the Kurds, and the list can go on ad nauseum if you begin to start naming the countless non-Slavic groups east of the Urals or the entire continent of Africa. To paraphrase The Bard, thou dost protest too much, methinks.

dexterm · July 22, 2014

I sincerely struggle to understand the attitude of non-Jewish supporters of Israel. It is as clear as day that Isreal is trying to expand and committing crimes and atrocities to do it. The apologists that cite "thousands of rockets" refuse to acknowledge that the rockets, aside from inflicting relatively little damage (relative to the damage Israeli weapons inflict on Gaza), are coming from freedom fighters fighting an aggressive occupier.
The Palestinians are the underdogs, brutally suppressed by Israel and unfairly treated by the West. If it was a different indigenous people invaded by a different occupier/settler, the UN would be doing something. But the Zionist lobby and the Zionist propaganda machine keeps certain UN members (mainly the US and Russia, and that's more than enough veto) off the subject of Israel's crimes.

Israel is simply attempting to survive in the face of an implacable enemy dedicated to the destruction of their nation-state. There is no occupation of Gaza as the Israelis retreated from Gaza in a forlorn attempt in a land-for-peace deal that of course failed to deliver any peace, although that failure pretty much eviscerated the Israeli "peace movement" of that time. The Palestinians are indeed perceived as underdogs, but are equally supressed politically by both Israel and Hamas. I agree, they, the Palestinians, are not treated fairly by the West. Neither the UN, nor the pro-Palestinian groups in the West have said boo regarding the occupation of Tibet by the Han Chinese, the occupation of northern Sri Lanka by Tamils, the lack of self-determination for the Kurds, and the list can go on ad nauseum if you begin to start naming the countless non-Slavic groups east of the Urals or the entire continent of Africa. To paraphrase The Bard, thou dost protest too much, methinks.

I don't think Israel's withdrawal from Gaza was an altruistic land-for-peace deal, because at the same time and ever since they have been expanding colonies in the far bigger West Bank. They left Gaza because it was too costly in lives and $$.

I have posted elsewhere about Chinese treatment of Tibetans and Uighurs. It's a rotten world. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

Jingthing · July 22, 2014

Israel is simply attempting to survive in the face of an implacable enemy dedicated to the destruction of their nation-state.

...

Yes.

Exactly.

In my estimation, Israel now fights not just to clear out the tunnels and rid Gaza of its rockets but for its very existence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-a-fight-for-israels-existence/2014/07/21/085af564-10f7-11e4-8936-26932bcfd6ed_story.html

Ulysses G. · July 22, 2014

I sincerely struggle to understand the attitude of non-Jewish supporters of Israel.

It is simple. The Arabs started the conflict in the first place, they started a bunch of wars and lost them and they have acted like savages ever since. Israel are far from perfect, but they are far more on the side of good than their enemies and have far more reason to have done the things they have done. All the Palestinians want to destroy them and all they want is to be left in peace.

I struggle to understand the attitude of those that make lame excuses and justifications for Islamic terrorists that purposely target innocent men, women and children for murder.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

Pralaad · July 22, 2014

How low can Israel go?

Israeli tanks have shelled a hospital in the central Gaza Strip, killing at least five people and wounding at least another 50.

According to early reports the third floor of the al-Aqsa Hospital in Deir al-Balah had been hit by at least three tank shells on Monday.

The interesting thing is Netanyahu's spokesperson Mark Regev's knee jerk propaganda reaction..

"You are allowed to hit targets where their [Hamas] war machine is using to hide rockets."

"I have no doubt Hamas uses, has used and continues to use, hospitals … we do not target civilians," Regev said.

"But I am not aware of this specific situation."

How low can Hamas go by hiding rockets in the hospital? while hiding in the tunnels like rats?

By the way if Israel really shelled the hospital, there would be more than 5 dead

Pralaad · July 22, 2014

Some people really need to chill out here. I cleaned up some of the most recent comments that were borderline, if not outright antisemitism.

A valid question and pertinent to the thread; Why is anti-semitism intolerable (not just on TVF but generally in the West), but anti-Palestinian feelings and anti-Muslim sentiments tolerated?

We have a group of people who were persecuted in history, and suffered immense loss 70 years ago. This same group of people are now occupying the lands of, and severely persecuting, another group of people. We have a new underdog.

Jews are no longer the underdogs.

Zionist media tries very hard to maintain the underdog status in the eyes of the world but it is fallacy. Why do they do it? Because they need support to continue their decidedly criminal actions. Settling in occupied land is illegal by international law. But settlements are what they want. They want more land (wherever there is water) and more Jewish immigrants to enlarge the Jewish State.

I sincerely struggle to understand the attitude of non-Jewish supporters of Israel. It is as clear as day that Isreal is trying to expand and committing crimes and atrocities to do it. The apologists that cite "thousands of rockets" refuse to acknowledge that the rockets, aside from inflicting relatively little damage (relative to the damage Israeli weapons inflict on Gaza), are coming from freedom fighters fighting an aggressive occupier.

The Palestinians are the underdogs, brutally suppressed by Israel and unfairly treated by the West. If it was a different indigenous people invaded by a different occupier/settler, the UN would be doing something. But the Zionist lobby and the Zionist propaganda machine keeps certain UN members (mainly the US and Russia, and that's more than enough veto) off the subject of Israel's crimes.

Good post. I agree 100%.

I have never ever made an anti semitic remark, and never will do. Racism/religionism is anathema to me.. I can’t understand it. It’s a crutch for people with low self esteem.

I cannot hate anyone in this world purely on the grounds of their skin color, shape of their eyelids, language or religion. It’s against my nature. Although I think all religions are nutty, but I would defend to the hilt people's right to be nutty if they want to be.

But I can hate a Zionist government who murders innocent civilians.

There is a huge difference between Zionist, Israeli, and Jew. It’s people like Netanyahu and some posters on this forum who try to blur the difference.

But I can hate a Zionist government who murders innocent civilians.

So what have you done about it, besides being an internet warrior on Thai Visa?

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