Auto lube or premix

[yankee99]

I am seriously considering disconnecting the auto lube pump on my yamaha tzm after it leaked all the oil out 3 weeks ago. I am not sure what caused the cap on the pump to come loose or what keeps it secure. I do know if i was on the highway my engine would have seized.

Any issues with just adding oil in the tank?

[mania]

Yankee for myself as I told you I only ever pre-mixed as it was for race bikes.

But here in Thailand I see many riders carry a small bottle of 2stroke oil under their seat.

At the gas station they add it to the tank.

You can be pretty accurate if you know your tank capacity & want a 16:1 mix etc.

If anything you would want to error on the rich side which is maybe why we see so many smokers

but that is not a big deal if not crazy rich.

At the other end like you say pumps fail & then you have a seizure

Also losing an extra cable will probably make your throttle feel better.

If it were me I would just go that mix in tank route myself

Good Luck

[Overandout]

People used to say that you should re-jet to allow for the thicker fuel mixture after ditching auto-lube. Not sure how true that is though.

I had 8 different two strokes from the early to late nineties, some of then dating back to the late 70s and never had an oil pump failure of seizure related to an autolube system.

No reason why in the 21st century you should have to slosh your petrol around to mix the oil on a station forecourt....

[mania]

People used to say that you should re-jet to allow for the thicker fuel mixture after ditching auto-lube. Not sure how true that is though.

I had 8 different two strokes from the early to late nineties, some of then dating back to the late 70s and never had an oil pump failure of seizure related to an autolube system.

No reason why in the 21st century you should have to slosh your petrol around to mix the oil on a station forecourt....

Just the one reason....The bike is a 20th century build

Hehehh just kidding a bit.

On the re-jet I would guess it is actually the opposite.

When running a premix you can be a bit more specific once you read your plugs & see

whats what on jetting.

With autolube I would bet they are jetted slightly on the fat side as a safety margin

[yankee99]

People used to say that you should re-jet to allow for the thicker fuel mixture after ditching auto-lube. Not sure how true that is though.

I had 8 different two strokes from the early to late nineties, some of then dating back to the late 70s and never had an oil pump failure of seizure related to an autolube system.

No reason why in the 21st century you should have to slosh your petrol around to mix the oil on a station forecourt....

at least one reason...you can ignore the red pen has i thought that was a sheared off bolt but i wasnt

[seedy]

If anything you would want to error on the rich side which is maybe why we see so many smokers

but that is not a big deal if not crazy rich.

If you add more oil than required, you will lean out the mixture. More oil means less fuel, which means lean mixture.

If the Autolube does not work, have it repaired. Premix is OK for race bikes which only see a narrow powerband. On a street bike you go from idling at a stoplight to full throttle on the hiway.

This is where the oil injection comes in, adding oil based on rpm. Fuel mixture stays the same across the rpm range.

[mania]

If anything you would want to error on the rich side which is maybe why we see so many smokers

but that is not a big deal if not crazy rich.

If you add more oil than required, you will lean out the mixture. More oil means less fuel, which means lean mixture.

If the Autolube does not work, have it repaired. Premix is OK for race bikes which only see a narrow powerband. On a street bike you go from idling at a stoplight to full throttle on the hiway.

This is where the oil injection comes in, adding oil based on rpm. Fuel mixture stays the same across the rpm range.

Could be a terminology difference as in fuel/air vs fuel/oil mix

But when 2 stroke folks talk premix heavy on the oil ratio= rich, smoking exhaust & fouled plugs

lean = opposite

As for narrow powerbands again could be terminology but a MX race bike 125cc,250,400+

goes from almost stopped tight turns to WFO winding out 6th gear straights

hundreds of times per race.

So I would think it is just as demanding if not more.

But of course for ease of use an autolube would win on the street.

For performance tuning/racing I would opt for premix

Edited September 5, 2014 by mania

[Dutchbike]

On one of my 2 strokes ( TZR 150) I use pre-mix, but I find it quite unpractical, now I only use this bke for short distances so I always fill it up at home. On lower RPM's it also smokes quite a lot. experimented with different mixtures and find 1:35 ( 29 cc of 2T oil for 1 liter fuel) the best comprimise for this bike.

For a everyday/ longer trips bike I always would keep the autolube system.besides Yamaha YCLS ( Yamaha Computer Controlled Lubrication System) is quite a good system with not much smoke.

"The Yamaha Computer Controlled Lubrication System ( YCLS) supplies required lubricating oil to the engine according to engine speed using an electronic control unit and a three way control valve"

[JonnyF]

Back in my 2 stroke days I used to stick 10 litres in a gas can every time I filled the car and then premix it when I got home. That way you can get it 100% accurate, and never have to go to the gas station on the bike.

Depends how much you use the bike I guess. I did low miles so it was fine.

[yankee99]

On one of my 2 strokes ( TZR 150) I use pre-mix, but I find it quite unpractical, now I only use this bke for short distances so I always fill it up at home. On lower RPM's it also smokes quite a lot. experimented with different mixtures and find 1:35 ( 29 cc of 2T oil for 1 liter fuel) the best comprimise for this bike.

For a everyday/ longer trips bike I always would keep the autolube system.besides Yamaha YCLS ( Yamaha Computer Controlled Lubrication System) is quite a good system with not much smoke.

"The Yamaha Computer Controlled Lubrication System ( YCLS) supplies required lubricating oil to the engine according to engine speed using an electronic control unit and a three way control valve"

You are familiar with my issues and this has got me nervous of a seizure. Your auto lube pump appears to be modified or a later model which would prevent the failure i had. Im not even sure if parts are availble if i need a rebuild? I dont see anything computerized on my auto lube.

If i was smart i should buy a spare cylinder, piston and rings.

[Overandout]

If anything you would want to error on the rich side which is maybe why we see so many smokers

but that is not a big deal if not crazy rich.

If you add more oil than required, you will lean out the mixture. More oil means less fuel, which means lean mixture.

If the Autolube does not work, have it repaired. Premix is OK for race bikes which only see a narrow powerband. On a street bike you go from idling at a stoplight to full throttle on the hiway.

This is where the oil injection comes in, adding oil based on rpm. Fuel mixture stays the same across the rpm range.

Could be a terminology difference as in fuel/air vs fuel/oil mix

But when 2 stroke folks talk premix heavy on the oil ratio= rich, smoking exhaust & fouled plugs

lean = opposite

As for narrow powerbands again could be terminology but a MX race bike 125cc,250,400+

goes from almost stopped tight turns to WFO winding out 6th gear straights

hundreds of times per race.

So I would think it is just as demanding if not more.

But of course for ease of use an autolube would win on the street.

For performance tuning/racing I would opt for premix

Actually I think it is a terminology issue.

Seedy's post makes perfect sense in that if the jet sizes are unchanged but oil is added to the petrol, the fuel viscosity is higher, meaning that less fuel will be added to the fuel / air mixture making the burn leaner. The more oil you add to your tank, the less fuel will pass through the jets to mix with the air. This is also why carbs are usually re-jetted to cope with premix.

Your post also makes sense, but you are talking about richness in the petrol / oil mix, not the fuel / air mix, which is the "usual" meaning of rich / lean terminology.

Also, when carbs are re-jetted on race bikes, my understanding is that it is the main jet that is usually enlarged to allow for sufficient lubrication at WOT which is when you really don't want it to seize. But what happens when you are on the road, waiting at a traffic light for 3 minutes at idle? Is that pilot jet, designed for petrol only, going to be allowing enough premix through to lubricate the piston and crank? I'd be quite wary about screaming away after a long period on idle with premix. You could blip the throttle wide open every 20 seconds or so to make sure but you will look like a twát.

[Dutchbike]

On one of my 2 strokes ( TZR 150) I use pre-mix, but I find it quite unpractical, now I only use this bke for short distances so I always fill it up at home. On lower RPM's it also smokes quite a lot. experimented with different mixtures and find 1:35 ( 29 cc of 2T oil for 1 liter fuel) the best comprimise for this bike.

For a everyday/ longer trips bike I always would keep the autolube system.besides Yamaha YCLS ( Yamaha Computer Controlled Lubrication System) is quite a good system with not much smoke.

"The Yamaha Computer Controlled Lubrication System ( YCLS) supplies required lubricating oil to the engine according to engine speed using an electronic control unit and a three way control valve"

You are familiar with my issues and this has got me nervous of a seizure. Your auto lube pump appears to be modified or a later model which would prevent the failure i had. Im not even sure if parts are availble if i need a rebuild? I dont see anything computerized on my auto lube.

If i was smart i should buy a spare cylinder, piston and rings.

As far I I know those spare parts are easy to get. I seized my TZR twice ( due to lubrication issues) and here they stock oversized pistons 0.50/1.0/1.50... all the way to 4.0

On the drawing you see the Valve assy, which is ( in combination with the CDI) the computerized part of it, sometimes there's more then meets the eye on these "simple"bikes even the servo motor got a chip.

In case you wondering how a seized piston looks like.... here are my 2 TZR pistons

[mania]

Actually I think it is a terminology issue.

Seedy's post makes perfect sense in that if the jet sizes are unchanged but oil is added to the petrol, the fuel viscosity is higher, meaning that less fuel will be added to the fuel / air mixture making the burn leaner. The more oil you add to your tank, the less fuel will pass through the jets to mix with the air. This is also why carbs are usually re-jetted to cope with premix.

Your post also makes sense, but you are talking about richness in the petrol / oil mix, not the fuel / air mix, which is the "usual" meaning of rich / lean terminology.

Also, when carbs are re-jetted on race bikes, my understanding is that it is the main jet that is usually enlarged to allow for sufficient lubrication at WOT which is when you really don't want it to seize. But what happens when you are on the road, waiting at a traffic light for 3 minutes at idle? Is that pilot jet, designed for petrol only, going to be allowing enough premix through to lubricate the piston and crank? I'd be quite wary about screaming away after a long period on idle with premix. You could blip the throttle wide open every 20 seconds or so to make sure but you will look like a twát.

True O&O & there are many discussion on the net about premix & in most they end up agreeing not to use the term rich

when describing a too high oil to fuel ratio as too many folks get it confused with fuel/air.

Also there have been great strides in 2T premix oil & the fully synthetic one is preferred

by guys who premix

They basically have two types now one for autolube systems & one for premix

Could be they did long ago too but I only ever remember running Barhdal or Blendzall when I could afford it.

By the way this was a good premix thread from last year

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=873898&highlight=premix

[mania]

In case you wondering how a seized piston looks like.... here are my 2 TZR pistons

Was it a premix synthetic oil or the same you use in your autolube?

From what I understand there is quite a viscosity difference these days with autolube oil being thinner

check out that thread I linked above if you like.

Lots of good info there

Edited September 5, 2014 by mania

[ll2]

during my moped and yamaha dt125 times, we had petrol stations selling premix petrol for two strokers!

yankee, better get a spare auto lube and change the part, these kind of things are never a joke for two strokers especially a seizure on the highway while going 140 kph.

[yankee99]

LL

The auto lube pump is not available anymore. I did acquire a second hand one but it doesnt look any better then the one i have.

[Dutchbike]

In case you wondering how a seized piston looks like.... here are my 2 TZR pistons

Was it a premix synthetic oil or the same you use in your autolube?

From what I understand there is quite a viscosity difference these days with autolube oil being thinner

check out that thread I linked above if you like.

Lots of good info there

The first time I seized it, was because of a mailfunction in that YCLS valve assy ( dodgy wiring) Since that TZR is just a runaround bike I switched to premix and diconnected the 2T pump and dumped the valve assy. The second seizure was ( I think) because I was experimenting with the mixture.

I now use fully sythetic 2T oil: 1:35, spark plug looks OK, still smokes quite a lot with cold engine and low RPM's

Use the same oil in my autolube 2T's and the premix ones.

I use in my garden 2 of those 2 stroke weed cutters/strimmers and they ran much better after starting to use fully synthetic.

Will check out that link thanks, always interested to read stuff about 2 strokes.

[Dutchbike]

LL

The auto lube pump is not available anymore. I did acquire a second hand one but it doesnt look any better then the one i have.

will ask around if my suplier still can get a new autolube pump.

[ll2]

i ask it for you too yankee.

[yankee99]

LL

The auto lube pump is not available anymore. I did acquire a second hand one but it doesnt look any better then the one i have.

will ask around if my suplier still can get a new autolube pump.

Thanks

The shop in khon kean is where i got the second hand one as they couldn't get a new one.