Koh Tao - DNA tests do not match with those of suspects in British tourists' murder

[SunsetT]

"Hoes in Thailand are used for almost everything...they're everywhere and I'de say that almost every Thai home with a garden or land would have one".

The only use I have often seen in Thailand is in construction or road building, where concrete is mixed by labourers in those black plastic baths and/or spread when concrete is delivered by a cement mixing truck. Dried cement on the hoe would be obvious if it had been used in this way.

[canuckamuck]

Thais use them for hundreds of different applications, mainly agricultural.

Edited September 18, 2014 by canuckamuck

[WhamBam]

Can you not tell the nationality / make up of a person's DNA? Like if they are Thai, European, African?

If you can that could be some guide to whom they are looking for?

[pacovl46]

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

Maybe they wanted to go to Samui and he wanted to stay a bit longer and catch up later with them?

[Alwyn]

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

Maybe the bullshit is on your top lip? The brothers were cleared by DNA already. They also returned to the island of their own free will, they were not arrested as it said yesterday.

Maybe the murderer did not rape the girl. I.e. the semen is just that of boy friend (casual sex).

Maybe the motive may not be sexual, maybe financial; like alcohol money, or betting on football?

According to the report in the DM, the police are saying there is no evidence of rape. But it seems there was a motive, or at least a possible motive. According to various tweets and the girl's own facebook page she was getting a lot of unwanted attention from a local mafia type which ended up with Mr Miller stepping in and having "words" and a bit of a scuffle apparently. Maybe the motive was "face"?

[connda]

I'm sure they're sad that they couldn't pin it on a farang. The story originally sounded suspect as soon as the media started down the "A Farang Did It" road. Now my advice to tourists in that area -- go home until Thailand can guarantee your safety.

[LanceGringo]

The Thai Police have <deleted> this case. As things stand, I seriously doubt that the criminals will be caught and punished.

Despite what any of the posters on here think, you have to admit that this investigation has been a comedy of errors from the start, and even if UK Police officials were to be called in at this stage, we're several days down the line now since the murders, the attackers could be anywhere by now, further evidence could been hidden or destroyed, any witnesses could have moved on, or disappeared etc.

I hope that the family/friends of the girl have contacted the UK authorities and informed them of whoever it was that posted the details of what allegedly happened on the island to her Facebook page, as this is probably the lead that needs to be pursued now - by UK officials, not Thai.

I hope I am wrong and that this crime is solved though, fingers crossed.

[Asiantravel]

Jonathan Head on the BBC reported just 10 min ago that all the previous leads have gone nowhere and the investigators are not sure where to concentrate next. Not very encouraging.

Yes, they have the DNA evidence but they realise the culprits may have escaped from the island shortly after the crime was committed.

I am predicting this will be another unsolved murder case as was the murder in Chiang Mai.

[mango66]

I just canceled our trip to Koh Tao.

well done fred,

congratulations !

[SPB65]

"Jonathan Head on the BBC reported just 10 min ago that all the previous leads have gone nowhere and the investigators are not sure where to concentrate next"

With migrant workers and foreign tourists cleared that only leaves locals.....oh, but of course they'd never do anything like this so no need to investigate that possibility.

[RickBradford]

Can you not tell the nationality / make up of a person's DNA? Like if they are Thai, European, African?

If you can that could be some guide to whom they are looking for?

Yes, you can. And yes, it could be some guide.

As could the strands of hair found clenched in the dead woman's hand, which the Thai police described as "golden-coloured", ie blonde. These should also yield DNA.

As could the fact that three different sets of DNA were found on three cigarettes at the scene.

By the way, I wonder whether some posters could refrain from being flippant about these sickening murders.

I don't consider myself a killjoy, but some of the levity being displayed on this thread seems to me to be quite misplaced. This is not a subject for jokes.

[mango66]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

Certainty.

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

Thankyou halloween, I was just checking before making the same post myself.

jb1

Age yes, race groups no. Larger general race groups can be ruled out.

Not Thai vs Burmese, but those two vs English with reasonable certainty.

http://www.genebase.com/support/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=230

Your link is to a commercial genealogy site. If you choose to believe the generalisations and pseudo-science they present as a sales pitch, up to you.

I looked at several sites and picked the one where the language was most comprehensible for the average joe.

Or you could try a medium level discussion...

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1438.html

well done animatic;

hope Thai CSI will read it, or know it;

[canuckamuck]

Jonathan Head on the BBC reported just 10 min ago that all the previous leads have gone nowhere and the investigators are not sure where to concentrate next. Not very encouraging.

Yes, they have the DNA evidence but they realise the culprits may have escaped from the island shortly after the crime was committed.

I am predicting this will be another unsolved murder case as was the murder in Chiang Mai.

Likely there are dozens of people who know exactly what happened by this time. It is not like young Thais are known for caution and discretion.

Of course I am assuming that this was retaliation for perceived loss of face. That is probably the cause of half of Thailand's murders innit.

[animatic]

DNA from semen can clearly rule out western involvement if tested.

Asian DNA and Western DNA are different .

So they could say now its not a westerner its an Asian(s)

http://www.iape.org/emanual/biological_evidence.htm

Certainty.

If you had bothered to read your own link you would find (in red) DNA CANNOT: Determine the age or race of the donor

Thankyou halloween, I was just checking before making the same post myself.

jb1

Age yes, race groups no. Larger general race groups can be ruled out.

Not Thai vs Burmese, but those two vs English with reasonable certainty.

http://www.genebase.com/support/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=230

Your link is to a commercial genealogy site. If you choose to believe the generalisations and pseudo-science they present as a sales pitch, up to you.

I looked at several sites and picked the one where the language was most comprehensible for the average joe.

Or you could try a medium level discussion...

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1438.html

well done animatic;

hope Thai CSI will read it, or know it;

I spent about an hour on the Donsak ferry a year or so back with some of CSI Surat, and in particular a young lady with excellent English and CSI training in USA. She was well versed in much of the current methodologies of modern forensics. It was a fun trip for me. Their main problems are politics, budgets for tools and damaged crime scenes.

Edited September 18, 2014 by animatic

[inzman]

So in I read in Coconuts today that there were 12 suspects not one was Thai, because of course a Thai wouldn't do something like this. I would like to see the real killer caught, but for the police to rule out all Thais makes me sick. Now the 12 suspects have all been cleared by DNA, but they are hanging on to two Brits . And they still have not considered that it could be a Thai and they still have no suspect? You do the math. The killer is connected and won't be caught as it would be a bad image for this country. But they are still trying to pin it on a foreigner, just haven't figured out how to yet.

[halloween]

Can you not tell the nationality / make up of a person's DNA? Like if they are Thai, European, African?

If you can that could be some guide to whom they are looking for?

Yes, you can. And yes, it could be some guide.

As could the strands of hair found clenched in the dead woman's hand, which the Thai police described as "golden-coloured", ie blonde. These should also yield DNA.

As could the fact that three different sets of DNA were found on three cigarettes at the scene.

By the way, I wonder whether some posters could refrain from being flippant about these sickening murders.

I don't consider myself a killjoy, but some of the levity being displayed on this thread seems to me to be quite misplaced. This is not a subject for jokes.

It was a single strand. Hair does NOT contain DNA, but the hair root does. One of the news reports has already stated that the single strand did not yield any DNA.

[Mooner]

Can you not tell the nationality / make up of a person's DNA? Like if they are Thai, European, African?

If you can that could be some guide to whom they are looking for?

Yes, you can. And yes, it could be some guide.

As could the strands of hair found clenched in the dead woman's hand, which the Thai police described as "golden-coloured", ie blonde. These should also yield DNA.

As could the fact that three different sets of DNA were found on three cigarettes at the scene.

By the way, I wonder whether some posters could refrain from being flippant about these sickening murders.

I don't consider myself a killjoy, but some of the levity being displayed on this thread seems to me to be quite misplaced. This is not a subject for jokes.

The golden coloured hair means nothing apart from the Thai police's ineptness that because the hair is blonde is must be a Farang. Pretty much anyone who has visited a Thai beach will have seen a Fire show boy with dyed blond hair and its not uncommon here to use the lemon in the hair trick

[balo]

How can we trust DNA tests being performed in Thailand ? When you know how the police works here , I do not trust this test , The murders will never be solved unless someone comes forward.

[Asiantravel]

Jonathan Head on the BBC reported just 10 min ago that all the previous leads have gone nowhere and the investigators are not sure where to concentrate next. Not very encouraging.

Yes, they have the DNA evidence but they realise the culprits may have escaped from the island shortly after the crime was committed.

I am predicting this will be another unsolved murder case as was the murder in Chiang Mai.

Likely there are dozens of people who know exactly what happened by this time. It is not like young Thais are known for caution and discretion.

Of course I am assuming that this was retaliation for perceived loss of face. That is probably the cause of half of Thailand's murders innit.

I was just reading this morning about the Kirsty Jones unsolved murder in Chiang Mai. It is unbelievable that because the prime suspect in that case had " influence in society " in the end they were never able to force him to provide a DNA sample.

[SPB65]

Assuming the guesthouses keep records of when guests checkout it should be easy enough to trace the lightweights who fled at the first opportunity and find out what they know or saw. It seems to me that the whole case will depend on credible eye witness accounts as to what actually happend in that bar before the couple left. If nothing else it might offer a new line of investigation. I hope when these people are far enough away from it all they will have the guts and conscience to speak up.

[TBWG]

They have DNA samples ~~~ DNA is a good indicator of ethnicity, so can narrow down the suspects.

It has gone a bit quiet on people flapping off at the mouth, maybe they have a good idea of the nationality of the perpetrators?

Apologies if this has been mentioned before but don't have time to trawl through 10 pages!

TBWG

[starkey_rich]

Hopefully, the police are looking for locals who left the island in a hurry. For example, somebody who didn't show up for work the next day, etc.

I doubt it. There are few more races to blame before they get round to the Indigenous race.If they ever do that is.

[HooHaa]

Who/Where does the hoe belong to? Someone has to be familiar with it - an item one usually does not find on a beach....

CB

not true at all, they are everywhere in Thailand. i bet i could walk out of my house and find one inside 50 meters.

but then you miss out on so much of this fascinating debate

[mango66]

Why did the two brothers that were on holiday with the dead male decide to leave at such an early stage and without their companion? I smell huge amounts of bullshit.

Maybe the bullshit is on your top lip? The brothers were cleared by DNA already. They also returned to the island of their own free will, they were not arrested as it said yesterday.

Maybe the murderer did not rape the girl. I.e. the semen is just that of boy friend (casual sex).

Maybe the motive may not be sexual, maybe financial; like alcohol money, or betting on football?

Sherlok - yes, maybee the bargirl didn't like her haircolour !!

[canuckamuck]

Can you not tell the nationality / make up of a person's DNA? Like if they are Thai, European, African?

If you can that could be some guide to whom they are looking for?

Yes, you can. And yes, it could be some guide.

As could the strands of hair found clenched in the dead woman's hand, which the Thai police described as "golden-coloured", ie blonde. These should also yield DNA.

As could the fact that three different sets of DNA were found on three cigarettes at the scene.

By the way, I wonder whether some posters could refrain from being flippant about these sickening murders.

I don't consider myself a killjoy, but some of the levity being displayed on this thread seems to me to be quite misplaced. This is not a subject for jokes.

The golden coloured hair means nothing apart from the Thai police's ineptness that because the hair is blonde is must be a Farang. Pretty much anyone who has visited a Thai beach will have seen a Fire show boy with dyed blond hair and its not uncommon here to use the lemon in the hair trick

Also the victim was blonde and I would not be at all surprised that when they figured out it was hers they just said, sample no good.

[HooHaa]

I would suggest Koh Tao tourism is now dead or severely depleted, as long as a killer is allowed to walk free. No evidence so far of migrant worker or tourist involvement. It could well be a local or local islander. Who would want to visit there knowing a murderer is walking free and the police have been so incompetent/unwilling to catch the killer.

and where would you be suggesting this from, exactly?

[hiller]

It would be nice to know if the DNA found in the semen was connected to the shared cigarette or the unshared one (or the lipstick one, but they didn't say they found DNA on that one). And what was the sex of the DNA found. If the shared one, then you have a strong suggestion of at least two attackers.

A hoe as a murder weapon seems to imply local people because tourists don't usually have access to hoes at night on the beach. Nor would they be likely to use one as a weapon, being unfamiliar with it.

Nor is it a common fishing boat tool....

The hoe being left at the crime scene definately points to a Thai female being involved in the crime. Thai men, as a rule, do not perform work that reqires a hoe or shovel. This work is left for the women.

[andyIslandMan]

If anyone is on Koh Tao or maybe lived on it in the past and want's to help the victim's families by passing on details of previous incidents like this on the Island I would suggest this BBC reporter seems to be receptive to such information: https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/512525217306927104 and hopefully he will follow anyone who follows him on Twitter to take such information via DM's. Hopefully armed with such information real pressure can then be applied to those investigating this horrible crime and at least the families of these victims can ger some sort of justice unlike many before who haven't...

Edited September 18, 2014 by andyIslandMan

[HooHaa]

I keep posting it but whatever,

Somebody posted on Hannah's original Facebook stating why the where killed that night, they said that in the bar a local Thai was hitting on Hannah and Dave got in a argument with the Thai.

The Thai left and was hiding on the beach with a friend waiting for them to leave around AC bar.

Everybody I know on Koh Tao who works there left the same day because all bartenders are foreigners with no work permits, they all say this is what happened. It's sad you don't hear about this in the news.!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

If true this has to made popular and well known all over the world and thailand

link to Hanna's facebook?

7thheaven and sweatalot, why on earth would you need to see her facebook other than to satisfy a perverse need to fulfill your own morbid curiosity?

find another way to entertain yourselves.

[SPB65]

From my experience of living in Thailand (CM, Bkk and the south) for 10 years it is on the whole a safe place for foreigners even at night. In most cases when farangs get into trouble they either go looking for it or just don't understand the rules of the game out here (especially tourists on holiday and under the influence). If a farang has an argument with a Thai in a bar for example, the Thai won't just seek a fight or revenge on his own, he will have back up and often lots of it. They don't care about a fair fight they just seek to do damage. I've see it a few times, when a Thai is involved and has lost face plenty more will suddenly appear. If the murder was a revenge attack based on "face" you could almost guarantee that at least two or three would be involved. In not saying that's what happened but what often happens in these situations. The police need to start looking at and testing groups of tight knit local men because that seems to be the way this is heading. If it's not them they've nothing to worry about, right ?