Am I being paranoid? Or does this deal smell extremely fishy?

[Senechal]

I've got a question for the board, and I'm hoping someone with some experience can offer some insight.

I'm in the process of buying a condo in an old Bangkok building that seems like an especially good deal for the money. The building is a bit old and worn, but the unit itself is newly renovated and looks great.

I hired a law firm (Thais) to assist with the deal. They completed the title search and made sure that the unit was debt free and within foreign quota. Everything looks good so far. The law firm drafted up a letter of intent for both parties to sign, and they will oversee the transfer of the chanote at the land office etc. So far so good.

Here's where it gets weird:

This afternoon I had a 4:30 meeting with the lawyer and the condo-owner to sign our LOI (which is really more of a purchase agreement. I'm not sure why they insist on calling it an LOI. It really isn't one).

When I arrived at the law-firm's offices I was told that there was a meeting going on and that I could wait in the waiting area on one of the couches.

After a few minutes, the secretary came and fetched me and they opened the door to the conference room. To my surprise, the meeting that had been going on was between the Thai owner of the condo and my two Thai lawyers! (These are my lawyers, I hired them, not him). One wonders what topic of conversation between my lawyers and the seller could possibly be private and require me to wait outside?

I walk in ... give everyone a bit of a puzzled look, and sit down. On the table are nice porcelain cups of coffee (now empty), bottles of water in front of the three of them and a plate with cookie crumbs. In front of the owner are the two business cards of the lawyers.

My two lawyers immediately jump to talking about the deal. They ask me if I have all the appropriate paper work from my bank, as well as the deposit check. I tell them I have everything.

But more importantly, I'm noticing that nobody has offered me a cup of coffee or a bottle of water or cookies. Not that I particularly want any of the above. But the lack of matching hospitality is screaming like an air-raid siren in my mind.

I read through the LOI once more to be sure it looks okay. It does. Everything looks absolutely fine. I've read plenty of contracts before and this looks like it covers all the bases.

We discuss the scheduling of signing this document, handing over a 10% deposit (which IMHO is high) and when we will be signing over the chanote at the land office.

The lawyers then tell me that I really don't want to go to the land office, and that they will handle everything there for me (via power-of-attorney). I tell them that I'd like to go and sign the documents myself and they insist that the procedure at the land office often involves waiting for up to five hours. (This smells like BS to me)

I stay firm. I tell them that I will be joining them at the land office. "Time is not an issue", I say. This is when things get even weirder. The two lawyers need to have a conversation about my desire to personally sign my own transfer documents, outside the meeting room. Why? They come back in and tell me that we can schedule in the next couple of days when we will go to the land office.

After two copies of the LOI have been signed, the owner gets up to go. Both lawyers (one senior, one junior) get up and see the owner to the door. They're gone for at least 5 minutes. Then only the junior lawyer comes back in and reviews an old power of attorney document that I had signed on my prior visit to see them. I repeat that power-of-attorney will not be necessary because ** I am coming to the land office to sign the documents **. She says "okay, okay".

After that, she walks me to the door, thanks me, and shakes my hand (doesn't wai). And again, the senior lawyer is nowhere to be seen. She doesn't look me in the eye when I leave.

I've MAJOR got red flags going off all over the place.

Anyone have any advice for how to move forward? I'm in for 10% and I've got a signed agreement that says I'm in for the rest... but something smells very fishy.

Advice would be much appreciated.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Senechal

[rayongchelsea]

Did they show you copies of the chanote of the condo you are going to buy?

Was it clean.?

[Senechal]

What do you mean "Was it clean"? The lawyers have assured me there is no debt or encumbrance on the unit. I have all the paperwork, although I'm not able to understand it - so I'm relying on my laywers' advice.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Senechal

[BritManToo]

Unusual to pay 10% in advance, usually you go along to the Land Office with the owner and the bank draft.

Best not to involve Thai lawyers in anything, a bit like the Thai police.

Just last week some people I know bought a house using lawyers, they phoned up the seller and said they could get some extra money out of the buyers. These were the buyers lawyers, suggesting to the seller a little bit of extortion.

The land office usually accept 5-10k in an envelope do do the deal in an hour or two.

Else it's come back tomorrow.

Edited November 17, 2014 by BritManToo

[Crossy]

I must admit that the warning bells would be sounding for me too.

That they don't want you at the land office is a mega red light

That said we waited all of 30 minutes at Pathum Thani land office to sign over our Wifey's land.

[rayongchelsea]

Also ask for the financial statements of the condo. If it has a significant foreigner co- owners should have a copy at the juristic office in English. If they did correct due diligence , they should have reviewed them.

The minutes of the previous committee meetings ,what items are being discussed etc..again as part of their due diligence. You don't want to transfer when there is a major overhaul planned and then asked to "pony up"

Ask who is managing the condo?

Is the common property cleared identified.

They may just be manipulating the price to reduce the taxes?

Who is paying the taxes? You or the seller?

This screams red and not to your advantage, like they are hiding something.

Are there any legal cases going on?

Please keep us informed, this maybe useful to many or maybe nothing at all.

Why did you pay 10%. It's not like it's a buyers market.

[Senechal]

Pull out,

You know why.

Well.. that's certainly one option.

I could also change lawyers in midstream and have another lawyer accompany me to the land office.

Contractually, I have seen nothing that looks remotely fishy. Just strange behavior in the meeting.

[eeeya]

the lawers job for you is just about complete, the seller could have a bit more work coming up which the lawers want to take on.. hence the cookie eating bum sniffing meeting

[rayongchelsea]

What do you mean "Was it clean"? The lawyers have assured me there is no debt or encumbrance on the unit. I have all the paperwork, although I'm not able to understand it - so I'm relying on my laywers' advice.

Just go to a translator and get it in English. ( chanote). That is vital for your own comfort.

You are relying on lawyers you no longer trust!

I meant not encumbered no debt and in the sellers name.

What other documents did they provide you.

[rayongchelsea]

the lawers job for you is just about complete, the seller could have a bit more work coming up which the lawers want to take on.. hence the cookie eating bum sniffing meeting

Very doubtful. Unless the seller introduced the lawyer to the buyer.

[Senechal]

[EDITS ADDED BY SENECHAL]

Also ask for the financial statements of the condo. If it has a significant foreigner co- owners should have a copy at the juristic office in English. If they did correct due diligence , they should have reviewed them. DONE. FInancials are okay.

The minutes of the previous committee meetings ,what items are being discussed etc..again as part of their due diligence. You don't want to transfer when there is a major overhaul planned and then asked to "pony up" DONE.

Ask who is managing the condo? DONE. I have minutes and names of board members.

Is the common property cleared identified. Yes.

They may just be manipulating the price to reduce the taxes? Not sure what you mean here.

Who is paying the taxes? You or the seller? 50/50

This screams red and not to your advantage, like they are hiding something. I sort of agree but not completely. Everything looked completely normal until this one meeting.

Are there any legal cases going on? This I don't know for sure. But I imagine it would be visible in the board meeting minutes.

Please keep us informed, this maybe useful to many or maybe nothing at all.

Why did you pay 10%. It's not like it's a buyers market. Frankly because he asked. I had already bargained him way down on the price (nearly 20%). At which point he said, "Well I need a 10% deposit then". And I said, "deal". While 10% is high, as just one 'chip' of many on the table it didn't seem like a deal breaker.

All good questions. I've added my answers in bold above. Thanks for the feedback, rayongchelsea.

I'll definitely keep you posted.

[kotsak]

BTW waiting for 5 hours at a land office in Bangkok is not overstatement Been there done that..

[Senechal]

What do you mean "Was it clean"? The lawyers have assured me there is no debt or encumbrance on the unit. I have all the paperwork, although I'm not able to understand it - so I'm relying on my laywers' advice.

Just go to a translator and get it in English. ( chanote). That is vital for your own comfort.

You are relying on lawyers you no longer trust!

I meant not encumbered no debt and in the sellers name.

What other documents did they provide you.

> "Just go to a translator and get it in English. ( chanote). That is vital for your own comfort."

Yes, now that the lawyers' trust is questionable, this is probably good advice. I'm meant to move forward later this week, so the clock is ticking.

> "You are relying on lawyers you no longer trust!"

Yes, I agree. Although this meeting just happened a few hours ago. I *just* started not trusting them this afternoon.

> "What other documents did they provide you."

I have the complete list of tenants and who is up to date or behind on common fees. I have the ID card of the seller. I have building financials -- which look decent for an old building. There are a couple of deadbeat tenants, but not so unusual for a large building of this age.

[Senechal]

BTW waiting for 5 hours at a land office in Bangkok is not overstatement Been there done that..

Good to know! Thanks Kotsak. Ok, cross one potential suspicion off the list.

[rayongchelsea]

[EDITS ADDED BY SENECHAL]

Also ask for the financial statements of the condo. If it has a significant foreigner co- owners should have a copy at the juristic office in English. If they did correct due diligence , they should have reviewed them. DONE. FInancials are okay.

The minutes of the previous committee meetings ,what items are being discussed etc..again as part of their due diligence. You don't want to transfer when there is a major overhaul planned and then asked to "pony up" DONE.

Ask who is managing the condo? DONE. I have minutes and names of board members.

Is the common property cleared identified. Yes.

They may just be manipulating the price to reduce the taxes? Not sure what you mean here.

Who is paying the taxes? You or the seller? 50/50

This screams red and not to your advantage, like they are hiding something. I sort of agree but not completely. Everything looked completely normal until this one meeting.

Are there any legal cases going on? This I don't know for sure. But I imagine it would be visible in the board meeting minutes.

Please keep us informed, this maybe useful to many or maybe nothing at all.

Why did you pay 10%. It's not like it's a buyers market. Frankly because he asked. I had already bargained him way down on the price (nearly 20%). At which point he said, "Well I need a 10% deposit then". And I said, "deal". While 10% is high, as just one 'chip' of many on the table it didn't seem like a deal breaker.

All good questions. I've added my answers in bold above. Thanks for the feedback, rayongchelsea.

I'll definitely keep you posted.

Seems to me like you have been a very diligent buyer compared to many.

Maybe they were just looking for business with the seller.

[Senechal]

the lawers job for you is just about complete, the seller could have a bit more work coming up which the lawers want to take on.. hence the cookie eating bum sniffing meeting

This could definitely be true. And that's the flip side argument. He has many properties and is quite rich.

[Senechal]

Another question:

One more issue came up during the meeting today and now that I think of it, maybe it's relevant:

Another document I presented today was the Foreign Exchange Transaction form. The point of this document, is to prove that the funds for the condominium purchase originated offshore. I got the document from Bangkok Bank and it was stamped and signed at the bank. The document shows the "Sender" and the "Recipient". I am the recipient, of course. But the sender is my (personal) corporate entity in the USA -- which does not bear my name. The lawyers said this was unacceptable, and it needed to show my name -- despite the fact that the forms were clearly signed and stamped by the bank to confirm that the funds had in fact originated offshore.

My understanding is that the sole requirement under the Condominium Act is that the funds originated offshore. I have never heard of a requirement that says the funds originated from one's own personal account bearing the same name offshore. Is this right?

Thanks again everyone for the great advice.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Senechal

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Also ask for the financial statements of the condo. If it has a significant foreigner co- owners should have a copy at the juristic office in English. If they did correct due diligence , they should have reviewed them.

The minutes of the previous committee meetings ,what items are being discussed etc..again as part of their due diligence. You don't want to transfer when there is a major overhaul planned and then asked to "pony up"

Ask who is managing the condo?

Is the common property cleared identified.

They may just be manipulating the price to reduce the taxes?

Who is paying the taxes? You or the seller?

This screams red and not to your advantage, like they are hiding something.

Are there any legal cases going on?

Please keep us informed, this maybe useful to many or maybe nothing at all.

Why did you pay 10%. It's not like it's a buyers market.

Agree, especially the state of the condo sinking fund, who is making decisions specific to spending from the fund etc. IS there a juristic person, etc.

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I must admit that the warning bells would be sounding for me too.

That they don't want you at the land office is a mega red light

That said we waited all of 30 minutes at Pathum Thani land office to sign over our Wifey's land.

Agree, it would ring bells with me also.

The lack of respect for you and deliberately holding discussions when you were not present plus them trying a couple of times to keep you away from the lands title office would be a big bell to me.

In fact I would confront them and ask why, especially about the discussions, even tell them it has made you feel very uncomfortable about proceeding.

I wouldn't trust lawyers and I see no reason to not confront them.

Edited November 17, 2014 by scorecard

[BritManToo]

Your not going to the LO, sort of suggests they won't be registering the property in your name.

Can't think of any other reason.

The other reason agents don't want buyer and seller meeting, is skimming.

Seller sells for 2M, buyer buys for 3M, agent pockets 1M

But you say you negotiated the price yourself ...... unless the person you think is the seller is an agent impersonating the real seller.

Then you get a few fantasy ideas,

Real owner dead, they're stealing from the real owners estate.

Real owner doesn't know his property is being sold.

Edited November 17, 2014 by BritManToo

[Senechal]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I must admit that the warning bells would be sounding for me too.

That they don't want you at the land office is a mega red light

That said we waited all of 30 minutes at Pathum Thani land office to sign over our Wifey's land.

Agree, it would ring bells with me also.

The lack of respect for you and deliberately holding discussions when you were not present plus them trying a couple of times to keep you away from the lands title office would be a big bell to me.

In fact I would confront them and ask why, especially about the discussions, even tell them it has made you feel very uncomfortable about proceeding.

I wouldn't trust lawyers and I see no reason to not confront them.

It's good to know that everyone else here feels the same way about this.

To your point: I haven't openly "confronted" them, but I did follow up this evening with an email to the two lawyers and a senior partner. My email specifically said that I would be handling things at the land office and that I did not give them permission to use their power-of-attorney at the land office. I asked for a response to confirm receipt and understanding. I still haven't received one -- although it is the evening. So hopefully in the morning they will respond to that.

Of course, I can always not pay until the chanote is in my hand. At that point one assumes that all is good. Although there are probably a thousand ways to get screwed even after one has the transferred chanote in hand.

I'm considering just playing hardball and releasing the attorneys altogether at this point and going to the land office with a friend who can read the documents for me.

[rijb]

Walk away! Find another property.

[elgordo38]

I have heard so many good lawyer jokes but they all escape me now. I have had so many bad experiences with lawyers I have lost count the worst lawyers in the world are in Latin America Mexico to be specific. My last bad experience was paying some jerk lawyer $300 an hour while waiting in divorce court. We waited 5 hrs. to see a judge and he twiddled his thumbs and billed me $1500. The courts were so backed up and he was like a taxi with the meter running. The government could not keep the court system on track and I paid. Of course if I had missed my court date I would have paid more.

[DogNo1]

If you can identify a trustworthy lawyer, it might be advisable to pay for a second opinion for your peace of mind. The opinions of TV posters are just that - opinions.

[ezzra]

This an advice from someone who bought and sold more that a few properties in Thailand,

forget the lawyers, take the copy of the Chanote to the land department and see and there

is any caveat or a lien on it, if it dose, it should show so on the back of the Chanote,

second, go visit the building where the condo is and talk to the juristic office and make sure

that there are no outstanding debts against the unit, and obtain a document that called

Bi Prod Nee, to say that the unit is cleared to change ownership,

make sure that on the agreement of sale it will state that there are no known defects to the

property that the owner is aware off,

once you have all that, take a friend who speaks Thai well and go to the land office to tranfare

it to your name....

[worgeordie]

Lawyers,Bankers,and a little bit less ,Insurance Companies

would not trust them as far as i could throw them,they are a

closed shop and back each other,hiding behind the fine print.

Been shafted by them all,and now try to keep as far away from

them as i can,and that was in UK,but i am sure they are much

more trustworthy in Thailand

regards Worgeordie

[KittenKong]

If you can identify a trustworthy lawyer, it might be advisable to pay for a second opinion for your peace of mind.

If you can identify a trustworthy lawyer in Thailand, catch him and take a DNA sample and have him cloned as he is surely the only one of his species.

I don't think that anyone involved with property sales in Thailand is to be trusted.

[jpinx]

I've bought and sold properties in several countries and one thing endures - trust no-one! Do your own paperwork and inspections. If you don't understand what the paperwork is about, a lawyer will have every chance to walk you down the garden path. They are the worst kind of used-car salesmen dressed in a veneer of respectability.

Specifically you are obviously being screwed over by the seller and your lawyers getting together without you. They rely on the stupidity of the farang to do something so blatant. Paperwork regarding the status of the building means nothing if you can not inspect the building yourself. I have come across fake sellers, fake building managers, etc, all with what looks like the correct papers - copied from originals they rented from another occupier.

On a side note -- for goodness sake get that power of attorney revoked. You are wide open to being abused.

Edited November 18, 2014 by jpinx

[ezzra]

If you can identify a trustworthy lawyer, it might be advisable to pay for a second opinion for your peace of mind.

If you can identify a trustworthy lawyer in Thailand, catch him and take a DNA sample and have him cloned as he is surely the only one of his species.

I don't think that anyone involved with property sales in Thailand is to be trusted.

I have found Kuhn Somsak from ask the lawyer segment in this forum to be as close as you

can get to a strait shooter old school, once you talk to him, you get the feeling that he can

get the job done and you don't have to sell blood to pay his fees...

[StefanBBK]

If you can identify a trustworthy lawyer, it might be advisable to pay for a second opinion for your peace of mind. The opinions of TV posters are just that - opinions.

I think there are some forum sponsors...