Family of Brits murdered in Thailand say evidence convincing

[cup-O-coffee]

The idea that two little Burmese guys could subdue, and then drag David Miller into the sea and drown him while Hannah sat on the beach and waited to be raped and murdered stretches my imagination to breaking point.

This is the main thing that gets me. Im wondering the scenario where this could happen. We have heard from the official statement that he was hit from behind when on Hannah.

Then what happened? Hannah screams? Why has he got hand injuries indicating a fight? How did he get the facial injuries?

I will feel more at ease when the trial reveals this.

No respect. Still speculating wildly.

FYI. The parents asking for privacy is aimed at the mainstream media. Cant seen them logging in to Thai Visa to see what we all think but climb upon your high horse anyway!

Agreed. And do not exclude social media, as well as those whose job it is to solve the crime. Whatever we may seem like, I do not get the feeling that any posters herein are trying to cover up anything. Moreover, I get the strong feeling that 99% of the posters herein are rather angered by the murder of these two kids and want the truth. I can say in all honesty that I do not get that feeling from 99% of the Thais responsible for solving this crimes as well as the life-sucking Vampires over at TAT. I can say in all honesty that they do not understand what truth is. They are soulless... and hence the irony that we are being accused of something that would be better served at those whose job it is top solve the crime as well as the life-sucking Vampires over at TAT.

[JohnThailandJohn]

its from Andy Hall but do not have original from FCO https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10152642326445677&id=675065676&ref=bookmark

Thanks for that link -- looks like it was an email sent out by the FCO. Not familiar with the UK, you think they might have a public site where they might post these kind of press releases?

Normally here https://www.gov.uk/search?q=thailand thats where the previous press release is for the summoning of the Thai diplomat but cant see this one there yet?

Given Andy's experience with Thai authorities it would seem safe to assume he would not publish unless he knew it was real but would be nice to see it posted by the FCO but can see why they may just want to send it to the press and let them decide if the story is worth publishing given it will likely just cause more public debate and speculation.

[jdinasia]

I feel for the parents but clearly their comments are being used as propaganda. The issue of "evidence" is unfortunately one that relies entirely on the trust of the Police here. Evidence can be planted and confessions forced, other leads ignored so no evidence exists to undermine the narrative. To then put all of this before the parents to me is just odd unless the UK investigators were willing in some very odd way and in good conscience give this case the stamp of approval, which is EXACTLY what their silence is now being used to do in Thailand. It would seem to me that the idea the UK police could show up on a tropical island, surely not speaking that language, or having a clue about how corruption and power operates on the ground, and come back with anything other than a critical report is beyond me. Even if its just some sort of "null" report that surely can say procedures were "unreliable" and otherwise not in position to be competent to evaluate. Instead the Nation now has this "we've seen all the evidence and you haven't and we trust the UK/Thai Police so should you." UK is doing a serious disservice to its citizens to give them the impression that it is safer here than it is.

If as your first statement says you "feel for the parents", why are you ignoring their wishes and pushing more conspiracy theories?

[DaveE13]

The lead uk copper is a well known officer i

[Willy Eckerslike]

The report said the families back the police investigation,

which police are they talking about, the Thai or the UK's?

Use your head --- only one police department investigated the case and are involved in filing and bringing charges. The UK police just reported on and examined the Thai investigation and evidence the Thai police already collected. The statement is very clear in showing gratitude to the Thai police for letting the UK police review the case and to the UK police for doing so and reporting directly back to the parents about the strength and credibility of the case.

.................................Nowhere in either report do they use the term.........strength and credibility of the case.

[Rimmer]

Completely off topic posts about the moon removed.

[carmine]

JohnThailandJohn and JDinasia posting posting their thoughts at the same time!!

Priceless!!!!

[thaifamilyguy]

I feel for the parents but clearly their comments are being used as propaganda. The issue of "evidence" is unfortunately one that relies entirely on the trust of the Police here. Evidence can be planted and confessions forced, other leads ignored so no evidence exists to undermine the narrative. To then put all of this before the parents to me is just odd unless the UK investigators were willing in some very odd way and in good conscience give this case the stamp of approval, which is EXACTLY what their silence is now being used to do in Thailand. It would seem to me that the idea the UK police could show up on a tropical island, surely not speaking that language, or having a clue about how corruption and power operates on the ground, and come back with anything other than a critical report is beyond me. Even if its just some sort of "null" report that surely can say procedures were "unreliable" and otherwise not in position to be competent to evaluate. Instead the Nation now has this "we've seen all the evidence and you haven't and we trust the UK/Thai Police so should you." UK is doing a serious disservice to its citizens to give them the impression that it is safer here than it is.

If as your first statement says you "feel for the parents", why are you ignoring their wishes and pushing more conspiracy theories?

Where is the conspiracy in my statement? Quote it to me please?

The point is the the Royal Thai Police deservedly have not earned any trust in this, for certain. Those that actually know the police in command know his character. Those that have been in Thailand and wish to see it, know how the culture of the Thai police. Thus the idea of "evidence" it all requires trust in the Police in this case. The idea that Scotland Yard could show up after the fact and do anything is odd, the idea that they would be in a position to give it all their "approval" is outright bizarre.

[DaveE13]

The lead uk officer is an experienced nsy serious crimes officer. I dont think he would be part of any cover up as some people on here are saying.

[lil fluffy clouds]

Seems like the famous detectives from the Yard bought the RTP BS!!

Hope they enjoyed their holiday!!

Total nonsense, if anything the uk police know the score and have their reasons for directing the case the way they are.

A few possibilities come to mind....

[Baerboxer]

Oh the irony!!

The posters reminding the rest of of us to respect the families wishes about privacy are by far the busiest posters here!!

Makes sense!!

Still trying to dismiss comments you can't accept. Attack the poster, ridicule the comment, but never admit you might be wrong. For one who bashes Thais for such qualities, you seem a good example yourself.

[StealthEnergiser]

Even Dr Pornthip saws flaws in the investigation most people want the truth and the police's handling of this has been very questionable from the first day they let people with influence onto the crime scene.

Did she suspect somebody planted the suspect's semen in the victim? Let me answer, no. She expressed concern over the police not involving another group to collect evidence and handle the crime scene. Police are human and in every case they screw up but it usually doesn't mean the suspects goes free and it may come as a shock to you but in less developed nations, police are less trained, underpaid and screw up more. But the fact remains, no credible person has come up with any plausible scenario of how the suspects semen got into the victim ... anyone thinking this through and the timeline of the case and how it unfolded and those involved with testing and when the semen was collected will know it would be extremely implausible and one of the best carried out conspiracies and plans ever for them to plant the semen in the victim ... of course this would have been done by the same police people claim are clueless.

DNA databases and human rights

0. DNA is not foolproof so procedures need to be in place to ensure that matches between individuals’ DNA profiles and stored DNA profiles do not result in miscarriages of justice. The more DNA profiles that are compared the more likely errors are to occur, and problems can also result due to poor laboratory procedures, failure to require corroborating evidence, or if DNA evidence is planted at a crime scene.

http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/pageDocuments/JZK6YZQS60.pdf

Edited December 6, 2014 by StealthEnergiser

[Neeranam]

Silly comments to make before a trial but if the family and British police are happy with the investigation then it is probably time for the conspiracy theorists to let this one go.

Let's not forget that there are plenty of scummy Burmese as well as scummy Thais on these islands.

What a racist thing to say. There are probably a lot more scummy Westerners than Burmese and Thai.

[jdinasia]

Oh the irony!!

The posters reminding the rest of of us to respect the families wishes about privacy are by far the busiest posters here!!

Makes sense!!

Still trying to dismiss comments you can't accept. Attack the poster, ridicule the comment, but never admit you might be wrong. For one who bashes Thais for such qualities, you seem a good example yourself.

Personally I have avoided speculation in this case.

[Shaunduhpostman]

Interesting statement from the families.

I think it is also interesting, on a number of levels, that the statement was published in the media. It is almost as tho there is some insecurity about the public's opinion and that we need to be shushed.

The statements, while interesting, and while they definitely do open one's mind to the possibility that the case isn't being handled badly as has been claimed, the statements are just the families' reaction to whatever presentation was given to them by the RTP and the British investgators and nothing more. It hardly amounts to anything conclusive regarding the case and I feel once again there those who seem to want to manipulate public opinion for some reason.

And yes, us forum posters don't have the full story, but the families' statements hardly change the fact that we, via the media, have read some pretty strange things, that lead us to believe and probably still believe that this case is being mishandled.

[catsanddogs]

Is ITV news a credible site? I have never heard of them, nor seen them before. Can this statement be believed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITV_News

[lil fluffy clouds]

International interests go way deeper than personal ones....

[thailandchilli]

Oh the irony!!

The posters reminding the rest of of us to respect the families wishes about privacy are by far the busiest posters here!!

Makes sense!!

Whats ironic about following the families wishes once they make them public? But you go ahead and continue if you wish, not sure about the morality issues there however.

Edited December 6, 2014 by thailandchilli

[Willy Eckerslike]

jd. yes i agree there needs to be better trainning. and hooefully it will. it will be a good legacy to the victims if a complete review of all basic trainning is changed.

I know a little about the basic education of officers in the RTP. I have no idea what "enlisted" police learn, nor do I know what the officers learn regarding how to handle a crime scene. I am hoping to spend some time at the RTP Academy next year.

That will be interesting, I have spent time with the border patrol but never with the RTP..

[JohnThailandJohn]

Lets face it, all this social media BS started because of a local police officer that said the famous words: No Thai could do this.

Who knows , maybe he never said these words but it was repeated everywhere on social media and Thaivisa.

Just because of that silly comment , when they found the suspected Burmese , everyone is shouting scapegoats immediately after the RTP captured the suspects .

Nobody believed the DNA could be correct, that the powerdul headman on the island paid his way out and that its a cover up that goes all the way up to the P.M of Thailand. How stupid is that ?

Yes , theres a lot of corruption inside the local policeforce, but we have also good , honest investigators and I am sure the Brits were satisfied with their results.

Agree 100% and would add I think the statement was a result of a proud but insecure Thai (similar to so many farangs posting here) having some early unclarified and reported information, like the blond hair, and used this as a way to act as though Thai's were above such a crime believing he already knew it wasn't a Thai.

However, wasn't it a politician who said it and not a police official? I would love a link to the actual news report as I never saw but just saw many people talking about it early on.

I also think the early statement was latched onto and further fueled by the anger and distrust many Thais feel towards police and those with power while on the farang side this may be true too but think much of the fuel that kept the illogical conspiracies flowing was their hatred of their life and Thailand often resulting from their feelings of inferiority being the foreigner in another country and not being able to accept the Thais here are not the foreigners like in their own country ... resulting in anger and hatred for those they believe are more powerful and in control than they are here.

Edited December 6, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[Docno]

The report said the families back the police investigation,

which police are they talking about, the Thai or the UK's?

Use your head --- only one police department investigated the case and are involved in filing and bringing charges. The UK police just reported on and examined the Thai investigation and evidence the Thai police already collected. The statement is very clear in showing gratitude to the Thai police for letting the UK police review the case and to the UK police for doing so and reporting directly back to the parents about the strength and credibility of the case.

Dislike.jpg.................................Nowhere in either report do they use the term.........strength and credibility of the case.

"The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing." Isn't that close enough???? http://crimeandjustice.co.uk/2014/12/05/thailand-murder-investigation-statements-on-behalf-of-families-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/

[asiamaster]

What a bunch of hypocrites many posters are here!!

Yesterday the RTP, JD and JTJ were the enemy and ridiculed by most here!!

And then today, after a loosely worded statement from a couple of laypeople, almost everyone turn on a dime!!

The RTP becomes competent policeforce, JD and JTJ gloating in post after post, supported by their new friends!!

Interesting conspiracy theory there JOC ! - Reminds me of when I did make some earlier comments in support of JDinasia that just because I also have Asia in my username that we were all thought to be one and the same person.

And as I felt that I was just crying in the wilderness I refrained from further comments for a while.

Edited December 6, 2014 by asiamaster

[daveAustin]

No offence intended to the families, but they just won't know how things operate here; how serious loss of face is, how things can be made to appear and just how high and deep corruption goes. I will only ever believe it was those young lads if there was a high def video of them committing the crimes and the DNA testing was redone by the British police.

[Willy Eckerslike]

I do not believe the Millers would have stated the following if they thought or knew the B2 were guilty...............

Quote:

The evidence collected by the Royal Thai police will be presented at court and we hope the suspects are granted a fair and transparent trial. We are thankful of the over-sight of pressure groups such as Reprieve and Amnesty.

[JohnThailandJohn]

The report said the families back the police investigation,

which police are they talking about, the Thai or the UK's?

Use your head --- only one police department investigated the case and are involved in filing and bringing charges. The UK police just reported on and examined the Thai investigation and evidence the Thai police already collected. The statement is very clear in showing gratitude to the Thai police for letting the UK police review the case and to the UK police for doing so and reporting directly back to the parents about the strength and credibility of the case.

Dislike.jpg.................................Nowhere in either report do they use the term.........strength and credibility of the case.

"The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing." Isn't that close enough???? http://crimeandjustice.co.uk/2014/12/05/thailand-murder-investigation-statements-on-behalf-of-families-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/

Thanks - and nowhere in my post did I use quotes or said either statement (they are not reports) used those words. My question would be if I was being misleading. I don't believe I was in the least but I could be wrong just as I was wrong in thinking it was obvious I was summing up something and not quoting it.

[asiamaster]

Nobody believed the DNA could be correct, that the powerdul headman on the island paid his way out and that its a cover up that goes all the way up to the P.M of Thailand. How stupid is that ?

It has become even more stupid! f you would believe what they are saying they bribed the whole government and even beyond.....

[DaveE13]

These were top officers from the uk i trust them on this. we all know there are bad eggs in the force in the uk but not for one minute i would beleive these officers would be complient with a cover up for any political reasons

[JohnThailandJohn]

I do not believe the Millers would have stated the following if they thought or knew the B2 were guilty...............

Quote:

The evidence collected by the Royal Thai police will be presented at court and we hope the suspects are granted a fair and transparent trial. We are thankful of the over-sight of pressure groups such as Reprieve and Amnesty.

Respect your opinion but I think it is clear that this is coming from the conspiracy theories that had been spread and upset them so much. Had that not happened I think it clear they would not be needing to make this comment let alone the statements as a whole. To me it seems clear these are good and rational people who put a lot of thought into their statement to not offend anyone such as saying "you nutty conspiracy folks need to stop" but rather they are trying to be understanding and respectful to everyone ... even those they make clear are hurting them with their speculation and are clearly ignorant of the facts in the case.

Why try to pick apart their statement to come up with theories of what they are saying that they didn't say --- isn't that they behavior they are asking to be stopped? Do you want to force them to make yet another statement to address the conspiracy theories around their statement?

Edited December 6, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[jdinasia]

The idea that two little Burmese guys could subdue, and then drag David Miller into the sea and drown him while Hannah sat on the beach and waited to be raped and murdered stretches my imagination to breaking point.

This is the main thing that gets me. Im wondering the scenario where this could happen. We have heard from the official statement that he was hit from behind when on Hannah.

Then what happened? Hannah screams? Why has he got hand injuries indicating a fight? How did he get the facial injuries?

I will feel more at ease when the trial reveals this.

No respect. Still speculating wildly.

FYI. The parents asking for privacy is aimed at the mainstream media. Cant seen them logging in to Thai Visa to see what we all think but climb upon your high horse anyway!

Agreed. And do not exclude social media, as well as those whose job it is to solve the crime. Whatever we may seem like, I do not get the feeling that any posters herein are trying to cover up anything. Moreover, I get the strong feeling that 99% of the posters herein are rather angered by the murder of these two kids and want the truth. I can say in all honesty that I do not get that feeling from 99% of the Thais responsible for solving this crimes as well as the life-sucking Vampires over at TAT. I can say in all honesty that they do not understand what truth is. They are soulless... and hence the irony that we are being accused of something that would be better served at those whose job it is top solve the crime as well as the life-sucking Vampires over at TAT.

If you agree then you failed to read the words from the families regarding social media.

[Dogmatix]

So Cameron took credit by bowing to public pressure for UK police involvement and also probably deflects any further calls for UK police to investigate the murders of Brits abroad because their families and friends know there is no point. Thailand will probably reward the UK with some business deals. After all British embassies under Cameron are only supposed to promote trade. The interests of UK citizens have virtually fallen off the priority list and nearly all consular staff are now locals who have conflicts of interests.

It actually looks as if the timing of this press releases is designed to make the defence lawyers capitulate and advice their clients to plead guilty to try to avoid the death penalty. Anyway the Metropolitan Police does have an unenviable reputation for corruption, even if they are amateurs compared to their Thai counterparts.

The prosecutor's report is incredibly flimsy and weak. With the British police being so supportive of the investigation, bungling and torture included, one would have expected something more substantial. I wonder how the prosecution will explain the strange "hoe" wounds inflicted on David. . I suppose they will just say it's in the police forensic report, so must be true.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Dogmatix