Why the name change from siam to thailand and why thai land?

[ultimate weapon]

From what i know thai = freedom.

Therefore in the thai language i suppose thai land could be also called free land?

Perhaps it's due to my knowledge of english and how english farangs think but you know a farang wouldn't call his country free land. There is another country that does espouse values such as freedom like America yet they don't call their country free land which sounds rather corny to be honest.

Anyway let's put that aside why the choice of the word thai = freedom? Freedom from what? The thais weren't enslaved. Perhaps they had a feudal system due to the monarchy which was abolished and the monarchy didn't have absolute power but then again i don't think the thais living in the olden days of monarchy weren't actually enslaved. In fact the monarchy still has a lot of power today.

That's what i am curious about. Freedom from who? They were the only south east asian country not colonized yet they rename their country freedom land?

[AYJAYDEE]

it means land of the free AND land of the thai people. makes perfect sense as it is the land of thai people AND it has remained free from colonialism.

[BKKdreaming]

and why

Siamese cat ?

Siamese twins ?

or Siamese fighting fish ????

[ultimate weapon]

it means land of the free AND land of the thai people. makes perfect sense as it is the land of thai people AND it has remained free from colonialism.

Isn't thai = free? Therefore why would siam be changed to thailand aka freeland? Ok free from colnialism. That's right after all during that period surround countries were colonized so i suppose the country was called free land to show how it's free from wester colonialism am i correct?

[AYJAYDEE]

it means land of the free AND land of the thai people. makes perfect sense as it is the land of thai people AND it has remained free from colonialism.

Isn't thai = free? Therefore why would siam be changed to thailand aka freeland? Ok free from colnialism. That's right after all during that period surround countries were colonized so i suppose the country was called free land to show how it's free from wester colonialism am i correct?

re-read my post

[cooked]

Thai, as in Thailand = free is folk etymology. Google 'Tai' and you will see what I mean. A country called Siam sided with the Japanese during WW2. In typical Thai fashion, in 1949 they decided to change the name to Thailand.

http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/siam-officially-renamed-thailand

[AYJAYDEE]

Thai, as in Thailand = free is folk etymology. Google 'Tai' and you will see what I mean. A country called Siam sided with the Japanese during WW2. In typical Thai fashion, in 1949 they decided to change the name to Thailand.

http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/siam-officially-renamed-thailand

no, they first changed it in 1939

[cooked]

Thai, as in Thailand = free is folk etymology. Google 'Tai' and you will see what I mean. A country called Siam sided with the Japanese during WW2. In typical Thai fashion, in 1949 they decided to change the name to Thailand.

http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/siam-officially-renamed-thailand

no, they first changed it in 1939

Good to see you read the article also.

[Jingthing]

On a related note, look up the fascinating fascist origins of the national noodle dish of Thailand: Pad Thai.

[AYJAYDEE]

Thai, as in Thailand = free is folk etymology. Google 'Tai' and you will see what I mean. A country called Siam sided with the Japanese during WW2. In typical Thai fashion, in 1949 they decided to change the name to Thailand.

http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/siam-officially-renamed-thailand

no, they first changed it in 1939

Good to see you read the article also.

no i didnt

[sdanielmcev]

On a related note, look up the fascinating fascist origins of the national noodle dish of Thailand: Pad Thai.

"You keep using that word (fascist). I do not think it means what you think it means."

[HeijoshinCool]

On a related note, look up the fascinating fascist origins of the national noodle dish of Thailand: Pad Thai.

"You keep using that word (fascist). I do not think it means what you think it means."

.

Someone who does face lifts.

[ThePlant]

Siam is derived from the sanskrit Syam which means ' brown people/race'' (or something along those lines)

[simon43]

Siam is derived from the sanskrit Syam which means ' brown people/race'' (or something along those lines)

Ah, now I understand why they changed the name - obsessed with white skins eh?

But why isn't the country called Kaoland? Very appropiate ('White Land', 'Rice Land', 'News Land' etc)

[ThePlant]

I understand the reasons for the change weren't in semantics, more to be a part of a 'new post war II world'' with no recognisable links to the axis/enemy in the eyes of the 'masters' of this 'new world' (if you pardon the clumsiness of my expressions but it is early) In the eyes of the West, Siam had connotations to a state in perpetual turmoil particularly following events of 1932 - 46

Edited December 20, 2014 by ThePlant

[Water Buffalo]

A dish of stir-fried rice noodles is thought to have been introduced to the ancient Thai capital city of Ayuthaya by Viet traders, and was subsequently altered to reflect the Thai flavor profile.The etymology of the dish's name in Thai suggest Chinese origins.^[3] Thai government Plaek Phibunsongkhram named pad Thai as part of campaign to promote Thai nationalism and centralization^.

As Thailand's Prime Minister from 1938 to 1944 and from 1948 to 1957, Phibun wanted a westernized Thailand. In 1939 he changed the name of the country from Siam to Thailand. In that time noodles were very popular in Thailand, but Plaek Phibunsongkhram wanted to get rid of everything that came from China. One thing he could not get rid of was the noodle. The government had an idea to create a new kind of food to replace the Chinese noodle and establish the identity of Thailand. As a result a new noodle named "Sen-Chan" was created. The noodle is suitable to be stir-fried in a pan, and this Thai noodle was called "Pad Thai".

Anyway, doesn't virtually everything have right wing origins here? I mean, look where we are!

[aTomsLife]

Because not all the people of Siam were Siamese, e.g., Isaan, Lanna, etc. Changing the name to Thailand would create a sense of national unity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_cultural_mandates

The Cultural Mandates or State Decrees (Thai: รัฐนิยม; RTGS: ratthaniyom; literally 'State fashion' or 'State customs') were a series of 12 edicts issued between 1939 and 1942 by the government of Field Marshal Plaek Pibulsonggram during his first period as Prime Minister and military dictator of Thailand. The mandates aimed to create a uniform and "civilized" Thai culture at the time when the country was on the side of the Axis powers. Many of the practices initiated in the mandates were a result of Thai entered World War II and remain in effect today.

Mandate 1[edit]

The first mandate, On the name of the country, people and nationality, issued 24 June 1939, cited 'public preference' for changing the name of the country. It consisted of two items:

1. "In Thai: The country, people and nationality are to be called 'Thai'."
2. "In English:
   1. "The country is to be called 'Thailand';
   2. "The people and nationality are to be called 'Thai'."^[1]

One result of this mandate was that organizations with 'Siam' in the name were forced to change their names. Well-known examples include the Siam Society, which became the Thailand Research Society, Siam Commercial Bank, renamed to Thai Commercial Bank, and Siam Cement, which became Thai Cement. After Pibulsonggram was deposed the first time in 1944, Siam Society reverted both its Thai and English names, while the latter two reverted only the English version of their names.

[wow64]

Many dont know this but the country changed its name after its favourite food at the time Pad Thai. Siam almost became Somtumland but at the time more people like Pad Thai.

Sent from my c64

[daveAustin]

AFAIK, the country name has ping-ponged () between Siam and Thailand more than once.

[KhaoNiaw]

Because not all the people of Siam were Siamese, e.g., Isaan, Lanna, etc. Changing the name to Thailand would create a sense of national unity.

Actually, the change to Thailand made it intentionally less inclusive. Siam could incorporate all ethnic groups whereas Thailand makes it the land of the Thais only. It was creating national unity military style and it was a civilian government that changed it back to Siam before the military intervened again.

[AyG]

Siam is derived from the sanskrit Syam which means ' brown people/race'' (or something along those lines)

I suspect this is a folk etymology.

The Sanskrit śyāma does mean black or blackish. However, the initial consonant, ś, is a palatal fricative. The corresponding Thai letter is therefore ศ, so if Siam were derived from the Sanskrit śyāma one would expect it to be spelled ศยาม and not สยาม with the dental fricative ส.

[DP25]

The reason for the name change was to make it more inclusive of all the different 'Tai' groups in Thailand.

Siamese is a subset of Thai, it is specifically the ethnic group in the central Thai region. Thailand, or Muang Thai, is able to include the Siamese, Lanna, Isaan/Lao, Shan, and even the Zhuang in China. Tai is a broader ethno linguistic group and the name is meant to include everyone that speaks one of these languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_languages

In a way it's similar to 'Germanic'. A Shan person to this day will still call the area he lives in, in Burma, 'Muang Thai', but he would not identify with 'Siam'. The change was meant to address this and increase nationalism and a sense of unity in all the Tai speaking peoples.

Siam at the time was looking to regain all of the areas outside of its borders that contained Thai speaking peoples. They were interested in creating a greater Thai empire. They wanted Lao back from the French, Shan back from the British, and even dreamed of capturing part of China were the Zhuang lived.

There were basically interested in creating a larger state encompassing all Tai speaking peoples, similar to what Italy and German had done and were continuing to do with speakers of their languages.

[ultimate weapon]

it means land of the free AND land of the thai people. makes perfect sense as it is the land of thai people AND it has remained free from colonialism.

Isn't thai = free? Therefore why would siam be changed to thailand aka freeland? Ok free from colnialism. That's right after all during that period surround countries were colonized so i suppose the country was called free land to show how it's free from wester colonialism am i correct?

re-read my post

You said land of the thai people. Thai = free.

[aTomsLife]

Because not all the people of Siam were Siamese, e.g., Isaan, Lanna, etc. Changing the name to Thailand would create a sense of national unity.

Actually, the change to Thailand made it intentionally less inclusive. Siam could incorporate all ethnic groups whereas Thailand makes it the land of the Thais only. It was creating national unity military style and it was a civilian government that changed it back to Siam before the military intervened again.

I understand that the Cultural Mandates were designed to create a sense of nationalism, and even encourage a phobia of outsiders. But that doesn't contradict the point I made, which you quoted above.

By changing the name to Thailand, all the citizens of Siam were to consider themselves Thai, thus creating a sense of national unity. And while there are still some stateless hill tribes, overall the name change achieved its desired intent. All the people of what was once Siam now consider themselves Thai first, and, as is applicable, Lanna, Southern or Isaan (or even Chinese) second.

I see what you're saying though. It's the land of the Thais only, meaning it's not for the benefit of outsiders, nor can any outsider ever become Thai. And yes, in that sense Thailand is less inclusive overall. But that's not the point I was making.

[ultimate weapon]

The reason for the name change was to make it more inclusive of all the different 'Tai' groups in Thailand.

Siamese is a subset of Thai, it is specifically the ethnic group in the central Thai region. Thailand, or Muang Thai, is able to include the Siamese, Lanna, Isaan/Lao, Shan, and even the Zhuang in China. Tai is a broader ethno linguistic group and the name is meant to include everyone that speaks one of these languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_languages

In a way it's similar to 'Germanic'. A Shan person to this day will still call the area he lives in, in Burma, 'Muang Thai', but he would not identify with 'Siam'. The change was meant to address this and increase nationalism and a sense of unity in all the Tai speaking peoples.

Siam at the time was looking to regain all of the areas outside of its borders that contained Thai speaking peoples. They were interested in creating a greater Thai empire. They wanted Lao back from the French, Shan back from the British, and even dreamed of capturing part of China were the Zhuang lived.

There were basically interested in creating a larger state encompassing all Tai speaking peoples, similar to what Italy and German had done and were continuing to do with speakers of their languages.

the thing is thai is considered a subset of tai not the other way around. Shouldn't it have been named tailand instead?

The germany thing is interesting and it also applies to turkey or rather turkic races.

First germany. I have heard of people say they speak a germanic language. English for example is a germanic language yet it sounds so different from german.

Turkey or turkish can be considered an ethnic group and they are grouped in as turkic languages which are languages spoken by all ethnic groups mostly in central asia.

The one thing is the naming of the umbrella term to group all the languages together.

Like speaking a germanic language is very different from speaking german.

Speaking a turkic language is different from speaking turkish.

Same thing with speaking thai.

Shouldn't it be tailand instead?

[KhaoNiaw]

understand that the Cultural Mandates were designed to create a sense of nationalism, and even encourage a phobia of outsiders. But that doesn't contradict the point I made, which you quoted above.

It was part of a process of military nationalism and centralization (and also opened the door to potential claims to Tai Yai areas - a greater Thai/Tai culture). Southern Muslims, for example, could more easily be part of Siam, a collection of ethnic groups and cultures, but did not ethnically fit into the land of the Thais with a centralized and mandated language and culture. It wasn't about excluding outsiders, more about excluding those already there who were 'not real' Thais, or trying to force them to change their ways.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KhaoNiaw

[DP25]

Because not all the people of Siam were Siamese, e.g., Isaan, Lanna, etc. Changing the name to Thailand would create a sense of national unity.

Actually, the change to Thailand made it intentionally less inclusive. Siam could incorporate all ethnic groups whereas Thailand makes it the land of the Thais only. It was creating national unity military style and it was a civilian government that changed it back to Siam before the military intervened again.

It is more inclusive of all 'Tai' ethnic groups. But it does not include the millions of Malays, Cambodians, Mon, Hill Tribes, etc that live in the country.

[aTomsLife]

I understand that the Cultural Mandates were designed to create a sense of nationalism, and even encourage a phobia of outsiders. But that doesn't contradict the point I made, which you quoted above.

It was part of a process of military nationalism and centralization (and also opened the door to potential claims to Tai Yai areas - a greater Thai/Tai culture). Southern Muslims, for example, could more easily be part of Siam, a collection of ethnic groups and cultures, but did not ethnically fit into the land of the Thais with a centralized and mandated language and culture. It wasn't about excluding outsiders, more about excluding those already there who were 'not real' Thais, or trying to force them to change their ways.

Please read again what I wrote. You even quoted it: "I understand that the Cultural Mandates..."

Yet you responded by saying: "It wasn't about excluding outsiders..."

But,oh yes they were.

Mandate 2

On preventing danger to the nation, issued 3 July 1939, consisted of five items:

1. "Thai people must not engage in any business without considering the benefit and safety of the nation."
2. "Thai people must never reveal anything to foreigners that might damage the nation. These actions are a betrayal of the nation."
3. "Thai people must not act as agent or spokesman for foreigners without considering the benefit of the Thai nation, and must not express opinion or take the side of foreigners in international disputes. These actions are a betrayal of the nation."
4. "Thai people must not secretly purchase land on behalf of foreigners in a way that endangers the nation. These actions are a betrayal of the nation."
5. "When a person has betrayed the nation, it is the duty of Thai people to actively and quickly put a stop to it."

_________________________

The second part of your statement: "...more about excluding those already there who were 'not real' Thais, or trying to force them to change their ways," is absolutely correct. But, again, that doesn't contradict the point I'm trying to make.

It's not an either-or choice. It's both.

Edit: formatting

Edited December 20, 2014 by aTomsLife

[AyG]

According to the Royal Institute Dictionary, the word Thai comes from Malay. Nothing to do with the Tai people, or with freedom. Translating the etymology into English:

Malay. Royal word (first appearing in) the Thaanˑ​náˑ​kan

(Thaanˑ​náˑ​kan is the third chapter of the Mahachat, also known by its Pali name Kābymahājāŧia, a literary work of the Ayutthaya period, possibly composed during the reign of King Songtham.)

[ATF]

It is as others have said Siam means Siamese people, the Bangkok and Central Thais.

Thailand encapsulates all the other ethnic races in the Country.

Anyone can be Thai but anyone cannot be Siamese.