40 bodies have been recovered in the search for the missing AirAsia plane

[SanSaiExPat]

QUOTE :

"The Jawa Post reported that a body in a white T-shirt and orange life jacket had been identified, while Kompas TV quoted the co-pilot of a spotter aircraft as saying that floating objects resembled humans, suitcases and aircraft debris."

Sounds like some of them may have made it out, in which case how many may have been saved if not for the initial delays?

Poor souls.

With water temperatures in the Java sea at 24 c to 29 c you might be right. At least the sea temperature wouldn't be working dramatically against survival.

[RigPig]

Regarding the search being called off at night, from what I read it was only the air search that was called off the ships involved were still searching.

This is fair enough for there is a good chance that the extreme weather had a big part in this disaster and to risk others at night in similar conditions would be foolish, add to that the planes, and ships for that matter, would mostly have been searching visually for I can tell you from experience that radar is virtually useless attempting to pick up a small object in a rough sea, even when you have a good idea where it is.

You may be right but I was pretty sure I heard the boats turned back too and headed out the next day.

[LennyW]

From what I understand, the doors and parts of the evac chutes were floating on the surface, this indicates to me that the pilot managed a controlled water landing but soon after the evac procedures had started the plane was overcome with water and sank, this would by why the plane is upside down on the seabed.

Just from what i follow on the news feeds and my engines and airframes training with British Airways.

[basatop]

Just amazing how many air-sea rescue experts there are on ThaiVisa slagging off the real experts trying to do a very difficult job.

I don't think it is the real experts that need slagging off, but the politicians and bureaucrats that get in the way of these people getting out and doing their job.

Yes,exactly - nitwits in command,nepotism and corruption rules in Indonesia.

[SOTIRIOS]

.......terrible....

......my sympathies to the families....

[chrisinth]

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There's some overly graphic video out of Jakarta and posted on youtube showing a helo. winch-man descending towards a floating lifeless female, I don';t understand why she was clad in underwear only, seems she was preparing for a swim in the hope that help would arrive, it's all very tragic..

They would not have had time to undress if they had the pilots would have had time to make a call.

It seems like the plane could have entered Cummbulo Nimbus cloud, they are full of rain and ice and large air pockets and can reach heights of 40k ft planes will avoid them at all times if they can as they can drop quite a few thousand feet I believe.

I received an private pilots license in the UK and that was one thing drummed into us. On lot of flights in the evenings you can see some of these clouds with lightening flashed inside of them

God bless them all

Sorry that's not the way I see it, if the captain was busy wrestling the plane down he may not have had time to send a message, he was too busy, he may well of died on impact as he is at the front of the plane. If any survivors managed to escape they had 3 days to get undressed in the sea. The water temperature is not bad there from what I have been told and clothing could well be a hindrance.

Just a different perspective and of course all conjecture.

There seems to be a little confusion as to the effects that water immersion has on the human body. (Not picking on you RigPig; i actually agree with most points in your posts).

Hypothermia is by far the biggest killer for a survivor at sea. All this talk about removing clothing, etc. would be utter nonsense if the survivor was wearing a life jacket/preserver. These jackets are designed to hold the body face up at a 45% angle while taking into account additional layers of clothing.

IMHO, there appears to have been an attempt at some sort of controlled landing by the pilot with enough success to have been able to get at least one of the emergency doors open and the escape chute deployed. (Speculation based only on what wreckage has been so far spotted). Even in a panicked situation, the instructions from the aircrew would have been to put on the life jackets/preservers.

Again, IMHO and with no knowledge of effect, for a person to be sucked out of a breached pressure hull and dropped into the sea they would

a. Land a considerable distance from the downed aircraft

b. Be unrecognisable as a human on hitting the water, let alone be undressed by air or water pressure.

But again, this is only speculation on my part, what i see in my mind's eye.

However, i still believe the survivor's worst threat is hypothermia. It does not have to be cold climates for hypothermia.

[webfact]

UPDATE:

Bad weather halts recovery of bodies from AirAsia flight

PANGKALAN BUN, Indonesia (AFP) - Stormy weather forced Indonesian rescuers Wednesday to suspend their search for the bodies of 162 people aboard an ill-fated AirAsia plane, as investigators started trying to piece together why the flight plunged into the sea.

After two days of scouring the Java Sea for signs of the missing aircraft, search teams on Tuesday began recovering debris and bodies, sending relatives waiting anxiously for news into distraught outpourings of emotion.

Although officials promised another massive search on Wednesday, storms forced them to halt the hunt for the remaining bodies and the rest of the plane, which had been travelling from Indonesia’s second biggest city Surabaya to Singapore when it crashed.

"We are experiencing bad weather now. Rains and winds prevented us from resuming the search operation this morning," air force rescue coordinator S.B. Supriyadi told AFP.

National Search and Rescue Agency chief Bambang Soelistyo told a press conference Wednesday that six bodies had now been recovered, including a woman in crew uniform.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Bad-weather-halts-recovery-of-bodies-from-AirAsia--30251036.html


-- The Nation 2014-12-31

[HeijoshinCool]

So has anyone read where they will be doing autopsies to see if anyone drowned while waiting for Indonesia to allow those offering to help, help?

[NongKhaiKid]

QUOTE :

"The Jawa Post reported that a body in a white T-shirt and orange life jacket had been identified, while Kompas TV quoted the co-pilot of a spotter aircraft as saying that floating objects resembled humans, suitcases and aircraft debris."

Sounds like some of them may have made it out, in which case how many may have been saved if not for the initial delays?

Poor souls.

There was a report on BBC earlier, and I thought I caught a glimpse of a body in a life jacket. However they cut away from showing it.

It was reported an Indonesian TV Channel showed some distressing shots of bodies but thankfully removed them within an hour.

Should never have been shown in the first place. Insensitive to say the least.

[jpinx]

Without disrespecting the SEAsian authorities it is fair to say that this is a third world region and one does not get the same standards in most things, be they busses, trains or airplanes, and the accompanying services of maintenance, search and rescue and hospitals are similarly not what one would normally encounter elsewhere in the likes of Oz, EU, US, etc.

That takes nothing away from this tragedy but adds nothing to it. If one lives in an area it is wise to be aware of the standards that will apply to you and the services you will receive.

The guys now doing the search are I'm sure doing the best they can in a tragic situation and under difficult circumstances, and now with the conditions set against them too.

To anyone who has experience of these situations there is only hard work and sadness until the operation is over.

[draftvader]

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They would not have had time to undress if they had the pilots would have had time to make a call.

It seems like the plane could have entered Cummbulo Nimbus cloud, they are full of rain and ice and large air pockets and can reach heights of 40k ft planes will avoid them at all times if they can as they can drop quite a few thousand feet I believe.

I received an private pilots license in the UK and that was one thing drummed into us. On lot of flights in the evenings you can see some of these clouds with lightening flashed inside of them

God bless them all

Sorry that's not the way I see it, if the captain was busy wrestling the plane down he may not have had time to send a message, he was too busy, he may well of died on impact as he is at the front of the plane. If any survivors managed to escape they had 3 days to get undressed in the sea. The water temperature is not bad there from what I have been told and clothing could well be a hindrance.

Just a different perspective and of course all conjecture.

There seems to be a little confusion as to the effects that water immersion has on the human body. (Not picking on you RigPig; i actually agree with most points in your posts).

Hypothermia is by far the biggest killer for a survivor at sea. All this talk about removing clothing, etc. would be utter nonsense if the survivor was wearing a life jacket/preserver. These jackets are designed to hold the body face up at a 45% angle while taking into account additional layers of clothing.

IMHO, there appears to have been an attempt at some sort of controlled landing by the pilot with enough success to have been able to get at least one of the emergency doors open and the escape chute deployed. (Speculation based only on what wreckage has been so far spotted). Even in a panicked situation, the instructions from the aircrew would have been to put on the life jackets/preservers.

Again, IMHO and with no knowledge of effect, for a person to be sucked out of a breached pressure hull and dropped into the sea they would

a. Land a considerable distance from the downed aircraft

b. Be unrecognisable as a human on hitting the water, let alone be undressed by air or water pressure.

But again, this is only speculation on my part, what i see in my mind's eye.

However, i still believe the survivor's worst threat is hypothermia. It does not have to be cold climates for hypothermia.

All this talk about removing clothing, etc. would be utter nonsense if the survivor was wearing a life jacket/preserver.

They might not be had there not been much time between the announcement and the crash. Maybe some people panicked to get out of a rapidly sinking hull and left as quickly as possible. I know that I would favour a potential rescue/hanging onto a life raft over spending time getting my life-jacket whilst the plane sank. That again leads to people removing their clothing to help them tread water. I don't think anybody was claiming that somebody would take off clothing if they were wearing a life jacket.

[NanLaew]

...

Coupled with that is the fact that the aircraft was equipped with CFM56-5B engines. There have been past failures with these engines cutting out in certain conditions like transversing rain at altitude such as the aircraft would have encountered on that particular occasion: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/atsb-issues-safety-advisory-notice-against-cfm56-5-and-cfm56-7-345359/

The aircraft underwent its last maintenance inspection of November 16 according to reports. Let's hope that engine failure during the climb wasn't responsible for the loss of airspeed at that critical stage.

Nice scare monger on the engine non-issue. The ATSB article you quote is over 4 and half years old and itself ends with the statement,

... As a consequence, the ATSB considers that the safety action, taken by CFM International, adequately addresses this safety issue, ...

Are you suggesting that AirAsia ignored a safety directive for almost 5 years on a 6 year old aircraft?

[NanLaew]

So has anyone read where they will be doing autopsies to see if anyone drowned while waiting for Indonesia to allow those offering to help, help?

Do you have the chronology of the crash-related issues and Indonesian responses to offers of assistance from abroad?

Makes a change from Thai bashing I suppose.

[brucegoniners]

CNN is reporting 7. I believe this is erroneous.

[sunshine51]

There may be some considerable discrepancy in the numbers of bodies found.

And...it seems as though the fuselage has been located....

On Dec 30th 2014 Indonesia's Search and Rescue Services reported, that they have located the wreckage of the fuselage at the floor of the Java Sea, about 97-100nm southwest of Pangkalan Bun. The aircraft is broken up into several large parts but well recognizeable.

On Dec 30th 2014 Indonesia's Navy reported that Navy ships have recovered more than 40 bodies. A Navy Admiral later corrected the earlier statement of a Navy spokesman stating that three bodies have been recovery by Navy ships, not 40 as reported earlier.

Link to the above...

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=47f6abc7&opt=0

Read the highlighted bits.

[dabhand]

So has anyone read where they will be doing autopsies to see if anyone drowned while waiting for Indonesia to allow those offering to help, help?

Do you have the chronology of the crash-related issues and Indonesian responses to offers of assistance from abroad?

Makes a change from Thai bashing I suppose.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/dec/28/airasia-flight-loses-contact-with-air-traffic-control-on-route-from-indonesia-to-singapore

There was a report (at 09.06 UK time on day of crash) in this Guardian blog that Singapore had offered the assistance of their Air Force and Navy in the search efforts at 09.30 and that Indonesia had accepted the offer at 14.30 with a request for 1no C130, for now.

Given the circumstances, some might consider that to be too little, too late.

Other offers to / uptakes by Indonesia may give further insight into the search actions. No doubt this will form part of the final investigation report.

Edited December 31, 2014 by dabhand

[chrisinth]

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Sorry that's not the way I see it, if the captain was busy wrestling the plane down he may not have had time to send a message, he was too busy, he may well of died on impact as he is at the front of the plane. If any survivors managed to escape they had 3 days to get undressed in the sea. The water temperature is not bad there from what I have been told and clothing could well be a hindrance.

Just a different perspective and of course all conjecture.

There seems to be a little confusion as to the effects that water immersion has on the human body. (Not picking on you RigPig; i actually agree with most points in your posts).

Hypothermia is by far the biggest killer for a survivor at sea. All this talk about removing clothing, etc. would be utter nonsense if the survivor was wearing a life jacket/preserver. These jackets are designed to hold the body face up at a 45% angle while taking into account additional layers of clothing.

IMHO, there appears to have been an attempt at some sort of controlled landing by the pilot with enough success to have been able to get at least one of the emergency doors open and the escape chute deployed. (Speculation based only on what wreckage has been so far spotted). Even in a panicked situation, the instructions from the aircrew would have been to put on the life jackets/preservers.

Again, IMHO and with no knowledge of effect, for a person to be sucked out of a breached pressure hull and dropped into the sea they would

a. Land a considerable distance from the downed aircraft

b. Be unrecognisable as a human on hitting the water, let alone be undressed by air or water pressure.

But again, this is only speculation on my part, what i see in my mind's eye.

However, i still believe the survivor's worst threat is hypothermia. It does not have to be cold climates for hypothermia.

All this talk about removing clothing, etc. would be utter nonsense if the survivor was wearing a life jacket/preserver.

They might not be had there not been much time between the announcement and the crash. Maybe some people panicked to get out of a rapidly sinking hull and left as quickly as possible. I know that I would favour a potential rescue/hanging onto a life raft over spending time getting my life-jacket whilst the plane sank. That again leads to people removing their clothing to help them tread water. I don't think anybody was claiming that somebody would take off clothing if they were wearing a life jacket.

Then with all respect, in the situation you have described where you disregarded the option of a lifejacket, you would have been one of the first to die.

As i said in my previous post, that was pure speculation from me, i don't know what happened, i have never been involved in a civilian airliner SAR operation before.

As for the point on the life jackets, that thought came from 23 years in the Royal Navy, 9 years of which where i was, among other things, employed as a SSE (sea survival equipment) maintenance supervisor.

As for normal SAR operations, i can't remember the number i have been involved with, or the number of bodies recovered.

One does stand out though to highlight political influence in these situations regarding territorial waters. Operating to the west of Hong Kong waters (Mirs Bay leading into Starling Inlet) we were in an area between our 12 mile limit and Chinese waters when we received a Mayday from a Chinese fishing junk (fishing for sponges) which had turned turtle due to cargo (catch) shift. We had the boats ready to go (2 x FPC's (fast pursuit craft)) which could have covered the distance between us in literally minutes).

Debate between the British and Chinese governments lasted for two and a half hours before we got the go ahead. We ended up recovering 8 dead bodies, no survivors. We literally watched these people drown to avert a potential diplomatic incident. Devastating for us, fatal for the fishing crew.

Just a small example of what can happen. If blame for this rests with the time frame of the operation, do not blame the SAR crews. If you must blame someone, direct it towards the governments.

Edit: For clarity

Edited December 31, 2014 by chrisinth

[draftvader]

They might not be had there not been much time between the announcement and the crash. Maybe some people panicked to get out of a rapidly sinking hull and left as quickly as possible. I know that I would favour a potential rescue/hanging onto a life raft over spending time getting my life-jacket whilst the plane sank. That again leads to people removing their clothing to help them tread water. I don't think anybody was claiming that somebody would take off clothing if they were wearing a life jacket.

Then with all respect, in the situation you have described where you disregarded the option of a lifejacket, you would have been one of the first to die.

As i said in my previous post, that was pure speculation from me, i don't know what happened, i have never been involved in a civilian airliner SAR operation before.

As for the point on the life jackets, that thought came from 23 years in the Royal Navy, 9 years of which where i was, among other things, employed as a SSE (sea survival equipment) maintenance supervisor.

As for normal SAR operations, i can't remember the number i have been involved with, or the number of bodies recovered.

One does stand out though to highlight political influence in these situations regarding territorial waters. Operating to the west of Hong Kong waters (Mirs Bay leading into Starling Inlet) we were in an area between our 12 mile limit and Chinese waters when we received a Mayday from a Chinese fishing junk (fishing for sponges) which had turned turtle due to cargo (catch) shift. We had the boats ready to go (2 x FPC's (fast pursuit craft)) which could have covered the distance between us in literally minutes).

Debate between the British and Chinese governments lasted for two and a half hours before we got the go ahead. We ended up recovering 8 dead bodies, no survivors. We literally watched these people drown to avert a potential diplomatic incident. Devastating for us, fatal for the fishing crew.

Just a small example of what can happen. If blame for this rests with the time frame of the operation, do not blame the SAR crews. If you must blame someone, direct it towards the governments.

Edit: For clarity

Then with all respect, in the situation you have described where you disregarded the option of a lifejacket, you would have been one of the first to die.

Not before you if you choose my other option.

I know that I would favour a potential rescue/hanging onto a life raft over spending time getting my life-jacket whilst the plane sank

Totally agreed with it being the political issues that have slowed this down and plagued what might have been an "and rescue" situation. Confused reports about life-jackets being on....we'll learn more, I'm sure.

[Commerce]

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There seems to be a little confusion as to the effects that water immersion has on the human body. (Not picking on you RigPig; i actually agree with most points in your posts).

Hypothermia is by far the biggest killer for a survivor at sea. All this talk about removing clothing, etc. would be utter nonsense if the survivor was wearing a life jacket/preserver. These jackets are designed to hold the body face up at a 45% angle while taking into account additional layers of clothing.

IMHO, there appears to have been an attempt at some sort of controlled landing by the pilot with enough success to have been able to get at least one of the emergency doors open and the escape chute deployed. (Speculation based only on what wreckage has been so far spotted). Even in a panicked situation, the instructions from the aircrew would have been to put on the life jackets/preservers.

Again, IMHO and with no knowledge of effect, for a person to be sucked out of a breached pressure hull and dropped into the sea they would

a. Land a considerable distance from the downed aircraft

b. Be unrecognisable as a human on hitting the water, let alone be undressed by air or water pressure.

But again, this is only speculation on my part, what i see in my mind's eye.

However, i still believe the survivor's worst threat is hypothermia. It does not have to be cold climates for hypothermia.

All this talk about removing clothing, etc. would be utter nonsense if the survivor was wearing a life jacket/preserver.

They might not be had there not been much time between the announcement and the crash. Maybe some people panicked to get out of a rapidly sinking hull and left as quickly as possible. I know that I would favour a potential rescue/hanging onto a life raft over spending time getting my life-jacket whilst the plane sank. That again leads to people removing their clothing to help them tread water. I don't think anybody was claiming that somebody would take off clothing if they were wearing a life jacket.

Then with all respect, in the situation you have described where you disregarded the option of a lifejacket, you would have been one of the first to die.

As i said in my previous post, that was pure speculation from me, i don't know what happened, i have never been involved in a civilian airliner SAR operation before.

As for the point on the life jackets, that thought came from 23 years in the Royal Navy, 9 years of which where i was, among other things, employed as a SSE (sea survival equipment) maintenance supervisor.

As for normal SAR operations, i can't remember the number i have been involved with, or the number of bodies recovered.

One does stand out though to highlight political influence in these situations regarding territorial waters. Operating to the west of Hong Kong waters (Mirs Bay leading into Starling Inlet) we were in an area between our 12 mile limit and Chinese waters when we received a Mayday from a Chinese fishing junk (fishing for sponges) which had turned turtle due to cargo (catch) shift. We had the boats ready to go (2 x FPC's (fast pursuit craft)) which could have covered the distance between us in literally minutes).

Debate between the British and Chinese governments lasted for two and a half hours before we got the go ahead. We ended up recovering 8 dead bodies, no survivors. We literally watched these people drown to avert a potential diplomatic incident. Devastating for us, fatal for the fishing crew.

Just a small example of what can happen. If blame for this rests with the time frame of the operation, do not blame the SAR crews. If you must blame someone, direct it towards the governments.

Edit: For clarity

There's a simple word for it in Asia: FACE.

Despite delays, or not, or searching wrong areas, or not, or specualtions, or not; Many people have lost their lives, and it for those and their relatives that we should currently be paying our respects to - NOW.

The flight recorders will be salvaged easily in such waters, and it is only until the information from them will we receive any truth about this matter. That info is tomorrow's youtube and paper reports.

Until then, we are limited to speculation, even if political motives played a role. It will come out, for sure.

Thus, for now, let us please offer our sympathies to the lost and to their families.

[draftvader]

How much of the data will Airbus get? They have said they would like to analyse the data to find out whether they need to issue an Airworthiness Directive. Surely they will know if the data has been tampered with. They have everything at stake in a situation like this so they need to jump up ASAP if it was mechanical and say "It was us, everybody needs to do xyz". If it isn't mechanical it is in their best interest to say "Sorry guys, poor choice by an experienced captain under pressure".

[Thai at Heart]

QUOTE :

"The Jawa Post reported that a body in a white T-shirt and orange life jacket had been identified, while Kompas TV quoted the co-pilot of a spotter aircraft as saying that floating objects resembled humans, suitcases and aircraft debris."

Sounds like some of them may have made it out, in which case how many may have been saved if not for the initial delays?

Poor souls.

There was a report on BBC earlier, and I thought I caught a glimpse of a body in a life jacket. However they cut away from showing it.

Reported one body found with life jacket on.

How did so many bodies get out of the body of the plane.

[balo]

Is it sharks in this area? If the plane came down and the pilot tried a controlled landing on the water , many of the passengers would still be alive , if they had life jackets on , they could stay afloat for days.

[2fishin2]

Did any of you knuckleheads realize they were flying over water....and as such, in an emergency situation you are instructed to put your lifejacket on while still onboard the aircraft and inflate it outside. With lifejackets found on people that implies that the aircraft crew knew and instructed the passengers to don the lifejackets in the moments before the crash, thats all. Although they are instructed to not normally inflate until outside the acft, who knows what people chose personally to do in regards to inflation? In panic situations people do not always follow rules. To imply or insinuate that because they had jackets on means they were alive after the crash is beyond any of you guys abilities. Stop with the accusations and assumptions, its childish. Be adults and let the professionals do their jobs.

[draftvader]

Did any of you knuckleheads realize they were flying over water....and as such, in an emergency situation you are instructed to put your lifejacket on while still onboard the aircraft and inflate it outside. With lifejackets found on people that implies that the aircraft crew knew and instructed the passengers to don the lifejackets in the moments before the crash, thats all. Although they are instructed to not normally inflate until outside the acft, who knows what people chose personally to do in regards to inflation? In panic situations people do not always follow rules. To imply or insinuate that because they had jackets on means they were alive after the crash is beyond any of you guys abilities. Stop with the accusations and assumptions, its childish. Be adults and let the professionals do their jobs.

Thank you for your thoughts. You certainly put some interesting points across there.

Nonetheless you attitude might be more questionable than ours. We are debating, thinking out loud, trying to make sense of this situation. Please join in but avoid the mud-slinging and name calling, it does tend to deride your own view which, in this case, is quite sensible and something many of us might have missed during our thoughts processes.

Edited December 31, 2014 by draftvader

[sunshine51]

Another change in the story...

No recovered body was wearing a life jacket.

Read the link below & it's also updated on other websites

if you Google for the info. So no pax was wearing a life jacket

it seems as only one was said to be wearing an LJ. Now that's

changed.

So far a total of 7 bodies have been recovered.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/64564587/airasia-qz8501-doomed-plane-believed-found

NB edit to change the word "person" to: body.

Edited December 31, 2014 by sunshine51

[MrWorldwide]

I didnt see lifejackets on any of the bodies in the video footage TV One aired and subsequently tried to edit - if someone has a link to footage that proves otherwise, pls advise.

[draftvader]

At present they are saying that they have not found anybody wearing a life-jacket. This is the problem with the way the news works nowadays and our appetite for information. Plenty of unverified information and, particularly in cases like this, loss in translation.

[Thai at Heart]

http://news.yahoo.com/indonesia-says-one-body-airasia-plane-wearing-life-065203535.html

JAKARTA (Reuters) - A body recovered from the crashed AirAsia plane on Wednesday was wearing a life jacket, an official with Indonesia's search and rescue agency said.

I never said anyone was alive in a life jacket, but this would suggest a lot of people were alive in the descent which rules out explosion or explosive decompression right?

But if the plane is largely intact on the bottom how did so many bodies get out of the plane?

[smedly]

if the plane floats on the surface for a short time then there is a chance people may have survived escaping through emergency exits but if the hull was breached then no chance of getting out as water rushes in and seals the exits while it is sinking, if it was completely split open then a chance to get out before it sinks beyond about 30 meters - after 30 meters very few if anyone could make it to the surface, that is of course assuming if anyone survives the crash impact

A very distressing situation for all concerned

as posted earlier

It would seem that the plane broke to some degree with a possible soft landing, it would flood and sink very quickly, once it reaches 20-30 meters nobody would be able to swim that distance to the surface and survive, the only possible way people could survive is if the plane remains afloat for a time which in this case doesn't look likely, even in a car that is driven into water there are very specific ways you must do things in order to enable an exit even then it relies on the water being shallow enough to swim to the surface when you eventually do get out, can't imagine how difficult that would be on a sinking aircraft in the ocean

[2fishin2]

Did any of you knuckleheads realize they were flying over water....and as such, in an emergency situation you are instructed to put your lifejacket on while still onboard the aircraft and inflate it outside. With lifejackets found on people that implies that the aircraft crew knew and instructed the passengers to don the lifejackets in the moments before the crash, thats all. Although they are instructed to not normally inflate until outside the acft, who knows what people chose personally to do in regards to inflation? In panic situations people do not always follow rules. To imply or insinuate that because they had jackets on means they were alive after the crash is beyond any of you guys abilities. Stop with the accusations and assumptions, its childish. Be adults and let the professionals do their jobs.

Thank you for your thoughts. You certainly put some interesting points across there.

Nonetheless you attitude might be more questionable than ours. We are debating, thinking out loud, trying to make sense of this situation. Please join in but avoid the mud-slinging and name calling, it does tend to deride your own view which, in this case, is quite sensible and something many of us might have missed during our thoughts processes.

Oh trust me my attitude is just fine. Since the beginning of this thread, every know person or reason has been questioned, fingers pointed at this person, team or country. Knucklehead is a term of endearment there are so many factors that are involved one of the most basic being weather then and now, and to hear people blaming others so quickly does get my dandruff up Ill admit. They will get to everything in time. Talking out loud is one thing but blaming people, organizations and countries is another.