Are the 250/300 bikes still relevant?

[dave_boo]

Hear me out here.

First I am appreciative of Kawasaki busting the big bike scene open with their Ninja 250. I appreciate the fact that the engines are used across riding disciplines such as the 250SL engine being used in the D-Tracker and KLX; the CBR 250 engine being used in the CRF.

But that time when you had the Honda CBR 150, Phantom...and nothing that was factory supported, legal, and most importantly affordable in Thailand is well past us. Real bikes really arrived in 2009 with the ER-6 bikes. Variety of choices has steadily improved since. Kawasaki has released their Z bikes and even a well priced cruiser. Ducati is, apparently to the chagrin of their old guard owners here, brought the Monster, Hyperstrada and Hypermotard. Honda surprised everyone with their A2 license compliant bikes, the CB500 series, and the sweet deal 650s. Suzuki has their V-Strom and Gladius. Yamaha has their classic SR400. Tiger has pulled the right strings to start selling their Bonnies and Tigers. "Benelli"released their TnT 600 and a BN302cc even.

It's almost an embarrassment of choices on the sub-500K baht range.

But the thing that has been bothering me is the 250/300 bikes being sold. There is no disagreement that for what you are paying they are brilliant bikes. But price increases, along with the expansion of the 150cc market, has me thinking that there's not much of a point.

Granted, ridden to their maximum the Ninja 300 (and possibly the R3 forthcoming) can match the 500 series. But how often are you riding that bike that hard? Demanding less than all it can give and the superior torque of the 500s will eat the little bikes up.

And then there's fuel consumption. I'm sorry, but if a bike that has 60% the displacement uses just as much fuel that's not really an argument to get a smaller bike.

I've heard the theory advanced that parts and tyres are cheaper on smaller bikes. Really? The left passenger rear set for a CB500X is less than 200 baht; not bad for a decent hunk of aluminium. And Pirelli tyres are the same cost for the Ninja 250 as the CB500X...so I'm not sure where that thought process comes from.

So, as the 150 bikes are better city bikes and the 500cc+ bikes are better out of the city...where does that leave the 250/300?

[Nebula]

−

Since I am not that experienced I post here two opinions from another website. there are many who ll disagree with these but pretty sure there are many who feel this way:

Just picked mine up. After 300km, I'm very impressed.

I'm not a newbie. Been riding since 1964. First bike was a Yamaha YDS3 Catalina. Kawasaki H1. GL-1000. Suzuki GS-1000. Then became a Honda dealer. Sabres, Wings, Turbos, Ascots, Interceptors. Hurricanes. All of them.

This is a perfect bike for short-medium rides that encompass tight and

twisty roads. That's all there is here in Phuket, Thailand!

Just took my CBR300r home today and it is probably the easiest bike to ride I have ever been on. It is very comfortable and effortless to ride. It is a normal size motorcycle so it feels really light for the size of the bike

[guzzi850m2]

They are good beginner bikes, some might fell scared of starting with the cb500 range or er-6.

Good city bikes too.

Some riders prefer lightweight bikes and can ride them to the limit and still go around 160km/h.

Cheaper to buy which means a lot for many.

Smaller normally also means cheaper maintenance, tires- chain- sprockets and so forth.

I see one guy in the cbr300 tread that goes from BKK to Chang Mai in one day, ride around up there and ride back to BKK, so if you ride solo do you really need more cc/power here in LOS?

[papa al]

Last April I rode a CBR250 from Sihanoukville to Pattaya (580km) in a day & found it quite comfy.

So many great choices!

[eeeya]

I purchased a Honda CB300F a few weeks ago after trying to make my mind up for quite a few months what should be a good starter bike. For me the price was perfect and just like the tale of Goldilocks and the three bears it was not to hot, not to cold ..but just right. with ABS as a bonus. Sure I wanted the cream donut straight away, something big n shiney. but id cry when I messed it up..

sorry, just rambling

[ktm jeff]

The 250/300,s sit between both the 150 and 500 in many ways , and offers a "perfect" comprimise. Not too heavy / powerful / scary / expensive , but able to keep up with most bike traffic , can do most things and cheap(er) to run/maintain. As has been said before , Kawasaki really shook up the market , just 5 years ago. Choice has never been beter.These 250 bikes are often the first introduction to "big / proper" bikes. Not knocking the superb mopeds etc. Maybe some sporty 400,s will be next ?.

[Shurup]

If I lived in the city, I'd probably still choose the 250/300 over the 150 for a city bike.

[eeeya]

The 300 feels like a big bike among the scooters at the traffic lights. Id guess its affordability for the 20 somethings who havnt got rich parents to buy them a big bike make them more appealing too.

[Familyonthemove]

For city commuting - weight and agility are more important than power. So if you want a proper motorcycle rather than a scooter - the 250/300 class is ideal. The D-tracker/CRF250M style being particularly well suited for wrangling through traffic. CB500x is close - but if you don't need the extra power why have the extra weight and cost. Versys has even more weight and cost. But if you can get out of the city often then the choice is harder - but costs is still a factor for many people.

[Ridercnx808]

Give me a CBR 250 over the lethargic handling CBR500 any day. The 250 will run circles around the Honda 500 class in the mountains.

And use less fuel doing it. In the hands of an expert, 250-300cc bikes are nothing to scoff at in the tight twisties.

[dave_boo]

Since I am not that experienced I post here two opinions from another website. there are many who ll disagree with these but pretty sure there are many who feel this way:

Just picked mine up. After 300km, I'm very impressed.

I'm not a newbie. Been riding since 1964. First bike was a Yamaha YDS3 Catalina. Kawasaki H1. GL-1000. Suzuki GS-1000. Then became a Honda dealer. Sabres, Wings, Turbos, Ascots, Interceptors. Hurricanes. All of them.

This is a perfect bike for short-medium rides that encompass tight and

twisty roads. That's all there is here in Phuket, Thailand!

Just took my CBR300r home today and it is probably the easiest bike to ride I have ever been on. It is very comfortable and effortless to ride. It is a normal size motorcycle so it feels really light for the size of the bike

Good to get alternative viewpoints. From your first quote; I wonder if he had ridden the 500 series to compare to it. From the second, and thanks for giving me the chance to ride yours to be able to say this, I don't consider it a normal sized bike...quite compact actually. Felt odd getting on it after my 500X.

They are good beginner bikes, some might fell scared of starting with the cb500 range or er-6.

Good city bikes too.

Some riders prefer lightweight bikes and can ride them to the limit and still go around 160km/h.

Cheaper to buy which means a lot for many.

Smaller normally also means cheaper maintenance, tires- chain- sprockets and so forth.

I see one guy in the cbr300 tread that goes from BKK to Chang Mai in one day, ride around up there and ride back to BKK, so if you ride solo do you really need more cc/power here in LOS?

The 150s are even better beginner bikes. They'll hit an indicated 160. Parts are just as inexpensive (and as I pointed out in my original post those for the 500 aren't any worst).

I rode all over the Kingdom on my CBR150; including trips from Nakhon Sawan to Umphang. Never let me down and one could argue that it has plenty of power. Not by me of course, but just using your argument.

Last April I rode a CBR250 from Sihanoukville to Pattaya (580km) in a day & found it quite comfy.

So many great choices!

Great choices; but perhaps too many?

I purchased a Honda CB300F a few weeks ago after trying to make my mind up for quite a few months what should be a good starter bike. For me the price was perfect and just like the tale of Goldilocks and the three bears it was not to hot, not to cold ..but just right. with ABS as a bonus. Sure I wanted the cream donut straight away, something big n shiney. but id cry when I messed it up..

sorry, just rambling

Hoping that all goes well for you. I started off in Thailand on a 150, went up to a 250 and am now on a 500. If everything works out, a Tiger XcX is next purchase.

Living in fear of messing up something nice and shiny is not a way to go. It took me a long time to get over it myself; but believe that fear actually makes you less of a rider. You'll be constantly worrying about doing something wrong or whatever and this can lead to poor judgments that, when made make sense because in real life they do but motorcycling sometimes doesn't make sense-see giving it more gas to keep a tight line, leads to just what you were trying not to do.

[dave_boo]

The 250/300,s sit between both the 150 and 500 in many ways , and offers a "perfect" comprimise. Not too heavy / powerful / scary / expensive , but able to keep up with most bike traffic , can do most things and cheap(er) to run/maintain. As has been said before , Kawasaki really shook up the market , just 5 years ago. Choice has never been beter.These 250 bikes are often the first introduction to "big / proper" bikes. Not knocking the superb mopeds etc. Maybe some sporty 400,s will be next ?.

Where does the cheaper to run come from? It keeps getting thrown around...can somebody please show how that is true?

If I lived in the city, I'd probably still choose the 250/300 over the 150 for a city bike.

Why?

The 300 feels like a big bike among the scooters at the traffic lights. Id guess its affordability for the 20 somethings who havnt got rich parents to buy them a big bike make them more appealing too.

The 150s looks as much the big bike and are even more affordable...

For city commuting - weight and agility are more important than power. So if you want a proper motorcycle rather than a scooter - the 250/300 class is ideal. The D-tracker/CRF250M style being particularly well suited for wrangling through traffic. CB500x is close - but if you don't need the extra power why have the extra weight and cost. Versys has even more weight and cost. But if you can get out of the city often then the choice is harder - but costs is still a factor for many people.

Have you looked at the 250/300's prices recently? They're getting dangerously close to the 500 series. Kawasaki has their 300 at 185k'ish. The Honda is at 154k'ish.

But do agree that city riding weight and agility are very important. And nothing does it better than the glorified powered push bikes that the 150s are.

[eeeya]

Honda 150's look pretty small, very skinny rear tyre. I see quite alot of them around bangkok doing courier work etc. Cb300F is 130K drive away and the 500F ,from internet is around 205K ( i think).

75k is a fair wack of money difference when your making 20 - 30k a month

Edited for poor maths

Edited January 17, 2015 by eeeya

[ktm jeff]

Running around normally , as most of these bikes do , i would expect fuel consumption to be less on a 250 than a 500 , unless your flat out up a mountain trying to keep up with bigger bikes all the time. In which case , a bigger bike will suit that type / style of riding more. Insurance and tax is cheaper on smaller bikes. Tires are often smaller , lower speed rated - cheaper. Servicing will be cheaper. Some parts will be shared (between makes , and models). The overall cost of running most bikes is cheap.

[dave_boo]

Give me a CBR 250 over the lethargic handling CBR500 any day. The 250 will run circles around the Honda 500 class in the mountains.

And use less fuel doing it. In the hands of an expert, 250-300cc bikes are nothing to scoff at in the tight twisties.

Reckon if the 500 pulled over at the top and let the 250/300 catch up...yeah on the downhill section the bigger bike would get left behind. But they sure could build a lot of space on the first leg of the run to stay in front and keep blocking the smaller bike if they were being pricks about it.

Nebula and I, who are pretty close to having the same skill set, did a ride up to Nan. And there was no way the little CBR was keeping up with the CB500X especially uphill. He was solo on the 250 with a backpack. I had a pillion, tank bag with backpack stacked on top of it, and a top box loaded down (to include nebula's shoes--have to mention that so it really drives home the point his bike wasn't carrying it's weight).

The 250's don't use significantly less fuel. Total myth. Look on www.fuelly.com; and if you're on a ride with a bigger bike, those numbers will drop further as you struggle to keep up.

Honda CBR300: 65.6 MPG

Honda CBR250: 67.9 - 69.7 MPG

Honda CB500X: 60.5 - 62.1 MPG

Kawasaki Ninja 250R 50.8 - 53.8

Kawasaki Ninja 300R 48.9 - 53.4

Honda 150's look pretty small, very skinny rear tyre. I see quite alot of them around bangkok doing courier work etc. Cb300F is 130K drive away and the 500F ,from internet is around 205K ( i think).

75k is a fair wack of money difference when your making 20 - 30k a month

Edited for poor maths

Fair enough about the income being a factor. Just a point; if you want to look at the cheapest 300 (the F model), let's look at the cheapest 500 (coincidentally the F which is 195,000) We'll assume that someone finances those bikes if their salary is so low. So 20% down is 26,000 for the 300F and 39,000 for the 500F. Let's assume a 5% interest rate and 5 years of payments. The 300F is going to be 2,187.5 baht/month and the 500F is going to be 3,250 baht/month. So for the cost of a night out at the bar (or a couple of bottles of decent whiskey) you can have a bigger bike.

[eeeya]

so ..I conducted some unscientific research and data analysis using facebook liked community pages to gauge appreciation of particular motorcycles available in Thailand. Also as a side note ive noticed that there is a "fan club" for just about anything you might want to buy in Thailand if you look hard enough.

CBR300R Thailand Community 10,769 likes

CBR150i Club thailand 16,315 likes

CB300F club thailand 7,095 likes

CB500F Thailand 2,791 likes

CB650F Thailand 16,122 likes

ER6N Thailand 30,982 likes

and

ducati Monster club Thailand 64,066 likes

Looks like the 150 honda is quite popular!

[dave_boo]

so ..I conducted some unscientific research and data analysis using facebook liked community pages to gauge appreciation of particular motorcycles available in Thailand. Also as a side note ive noticed that there is a "fan club" for just about anything you might want to buy in Thailand if you look hard enough.

CBR300R Thailand Community 10,769 likes

CBR150i Club thailand 16,315 likes

CB300F club thailand 7,095 likes

CB500F Thailand 2,791 likes

CB650F Thailand 16,122 likes

ER6N Thailand 30,982 likes

and

ducati Monster club Thailand 64,066 likes

Looks like the 150 honda is quite popular!

If you sort out page views on the forum, here's a list of all the threads from most to least views for those that have >100,000.

Kawasaki Er6n, Honda Cbr150, Honda Cbr 250R 2011, Honda Phantom 200cc or Tiger (pgo In The States) G-max 150cc, Honda Crf 250L

[dave_boo]

Running around normally , as most of these bikes do , i would expect fuel consumption to be less on a 250 than a 500 , unless your flat out up a mountain trying to keep up with bigger bikes all the time. In which case , a bigger bike will suit that type / style of riding more. Insurance and tax is cheaper on smaller bikes. Tires are often smaller , lower speed rated - cheaper. Servicing will be cheaper. Some parts will be shared (between makes , and models). The overall cost of running most bikes is cheap.

If you take the worst result for the 500's average and the best result for the 250's average...you save 8 baht per 100 km. Means potentially if someone had ridden a 250 beside my 500X each and every time I went out...he would have saved 89 baht/month for the last year and a half. Woo-hoo...that's a pack of smokes and a litre of Mountain Dew a month (as long as you squeeze an extra baht from somewhere else)!

[Shurup]

If I lived in the city, I'd probably still choose the 250/300 over the 150 for a city bike.

Why?

Why? The newer CBR150 is about the same size as 250/300 bikes.

So maneuverability in the city traffic should be the same as 250/300 but there's extra power in 250/300 that can always be put to use.

150 weight less but not significantly less to make any real difference, not for me anyways.

IMHO

The only reason I see for someone buying a 150 is if they're on a tight budget but still want a "big bike".

Edited January 17, 2015 by Shurup

[seedy]

Never rode anything but a dirt bike at 250cc so can't say.

Street bikes - went from a Kawa 90, just like the old GTO's here, to a Kawa H1

For me in the city, my PCX works fine. No shifting, 2.02 liter per 100 km

At my height, riding a 250/300 sports-styled bike, I would look like I was trying to fornicate a football.

Edited January 17, 2015 by seedy

[guzzi850m2]

Well app. 65.000 baht differences between cb300f and cb500f is a lot of money for some (roughly 2000$) and not just a couple of bottles of whiskey as OP is mumbling about, unless is some collectors items whiskey, LOL.

I seen people buying the Wave without electric starter because it's slightly cheaper without it and before that, buying the front drum model (dis-continued now, I think) for same reason. Yes I know crazy but for many Thais, every single baht counts.

There was one guy in the cb300f tread that sold his cb500x and got the cb300f instead, experienced rider but prefer the 300 for his needs.

So, yes I believe there is a big market for the 300cc models here in Thailand.

What about serious off-roading, 250-300cc is the best for that.

[Shurup]

For serious off-road it can be argued that 250-300 isn't enough. My dirtbike is a 450 and the smaller bikes revving their guts out where I can pretty much idle through stuff.

[Issanman]

Not everyone wants a bigger, heavier, faster bike. In my years of riding, I have had 40 different bikes of all sizes, up to and including Harleys and six-cylinder Kawasakis. But nowadays, I prefer the smaller and easy to handle bikes. I don't care about going a million miles an hour any more. Been there. Done that.

Little bikes are fun, too.

[Dutchbike]

Well,simple anwser:I believe the more choice the better, relevant or not, when manufactures/dealers don't see a future/market for them they will be discontuinued.

In the light off-road/motard section of the market 250's are still the only available/affordable choice ( KLX/CRF)

There I would love to see more choice: like you had in the past: the XL's, XT's, DR's and KLR's ( 250's 300's,250's, 400's, 500's,600's and even the infamous Dr BIG ( 800cc single)

But it looks like that kind of bigger singles are replaced by the various adventure bikes ( versys and the like) which are more road/tour orientated.

[OmegaRacer]

I don't care much for the small 250/300 sport bike range...too much plastic for my taste. The Kawa Z250 is OK though.

What I would like to see is a motard styled bike with a 300-500 engine. Now that would get my heart pumping!

[guzzi850m2]

Yes absolutely, the more choices the better.

If you see what they can buy in Germany and the UK among other places, I just wish we have the same options here, I mean at made in Thailand prices.

It is thankfully getting better by the year, as somebody mentioned the Er6 was launched here in 2009 as the only real cheap big bike back then, well okay we had the cbr150 but not what I would call a big bike.

So off-course the 250/300cc bikes are still relevant, as Duchbike mentioned, the more choices, the better.

I may want a Versys 650 tomorrow but I might want a cb300f in 5 years time, who knows?

Edited January 18, 2015 by guzzi850m2

[Rhys]

Well it is almost all said and done... emerging themes, Choice, options, flexibility, rider's abilities

I fit too fit the profile of an experienced bike owner and rider.. Mainly Kawasaki and Honda.. dirt and street. my two favorite bikes .. the KZ 750..and the SL 350..can you remember back that far..

Now the 250-300cc discussion.. I started out in Thailand too with the 150cc because that was all I could find in my area, and I frankly I was a little intrigued with riding a smaller bike. Around town, perfect to zip around, on the freeway, stay far away...lack of power and size. In-fact I still have it.. and debating whether to sell it or keep it..

IMO, the 250-300cc bike feels and of course, bikers will not admit it, more like what we expect in a bike, the lowest power... stance, we will accept. at about 30 horses of power, that is sufficient for us to "geetee up"

We are the breed that want the speed, the rush of air, the sense of balance that our riding abilities thrill us or draw upon in an immediate challenge...Man, just look at the recent upload of max pro filming... I really enjoy and yet cringe at the Bangkok rider(s) that seem to challenge the streets, cars, and go for it on the ride...a <deleted> attitude...only to realize, they have accepted this is how they want to ride... and it is the 250-300cc class that gives the Western rider this sense of motor..cycling... attitude...(OK..European too)

Price and upkeep... really, does it matter... we shall get the bike we want and have the bike taken care of, as the bike is our precious.. baby.. just how many hours do we spent looking over, taking care of the bike ourselves..

A different breed..

Thus, the marketing people and the cycle corporations...did the research, found the theme, and gave us want we want...

Soon, in Thailand..."coming soon" the California version of the "jet motorcycle is coming to Thailand" and how many of us, will be waiting.. like we are for the 250-300cc cycles to arrive so we can "cruise the line"

Up on the pegs..

[macknife]

I wish there were more choices for mid range sports bikes. If sports bikes are your thing then the 250/300cc range here is your best bet. What mid sized sports bikes are available at normal prices?

No R6, no ZX6. The ER6n, Ninja 650, Honda CBR500, CBR650 Ducati monster aren't really sports bikes. Yes they are more powerful than say a Ninja 300, CBR300 or maybe the new R3 but are they more fun?

People say it's hard work changing gear all the time to get the best out of the mini sports bikes but I don't mind that at all, it's part of the fun. I don't really want to just be in cruise control all the time simply because my bike has the power to be ridden that way, otherwise I may as well have just bought a scooter.

Is it not more fun to ride a smaller bike flat out than ride a bigger bike at 50% all the time?

Smaller bikes are cheaper to run. Maybe not so much in fuel when compared to the Honda 500 series but a fair amount in other things. There's quite a difference in insurance, tyres are much more expensive, chains and sprockets etc The price difference is quite large too. 70,000B+ is not small change. Finance has been mentioned but I'd say many 'farangs' here can't get finance anyway and most pay in cash.

[ll2]

My first bike in thailand was a cbr150 too. Great bike for the city anf can tour all around.

And i was not thinking on upgrading it here but again bitten by the bike bug and get bored and upgraded.

I was recommensing cbr250 for my beginner friends before. But after honda 500 series are released, i just recommend 500 series.

500 series are only 30 kg heavier than 250s.

It is nearly as flickable and nimble as 250.

Its power delivery is tamed very well for beginners - or for experienced.

It is a bigger bike with lots of room for an occasion and comfy two up trips.

It has enough power to keep you entertained for a long time. Longer than an 250 cc engine can offer.

Price difference is also not that bad. Just you pay 1/3 more for a 500 but nealry get a double bike.

Fuel consumption of a 250cc was close to 500cc. Especially if you push 250cc, it might run more.

Spare part and service prices are not very different too.

500 series have more power to keep you out of trouble.

I believe honda did a great first bike or a bike that can serve experienced riders too.

Edited January 18, 2015 by ll2

[jackcorbett]

I wish there were more choices for mid range sports bikes. If sports bikes are your thing then the 250/300cc range here is your best bet. What mid sized sports bikes are available at normal prices?

No R6, no ZX6. The ER6n, Ninja 650, Honda CBR500, CBR650 Ducati monster aren't really sports bikes. Yes they are more powerful than say a Ninja 300, CBR300 or maybe the new R3 but are they more fun?

People say it's hard work changing gear all the time to get the best out of the mini sports bikes but I don't mind that at all, it's part of the fun. I don't really want to just be in cruise control all the time simply because my bike has the power to be ridden that way, otherwise I may as well have just bought a scooter.

Is it not more fun to ride a smaller bike flat out than ride a bigger bike at 50% all the time?

Smaller bikes are cheaper to run. Maybe not so much in fuel when compared to the Honda 500 series but a fair amount in other things. There's quite a difference in insurance, tyres are much more expensive, chains and sprockets etc The price difference is quite large too. 70,000B+ is not small change. Finance has been mentioned but I'd say many 'farangs' here can't get finance anyway and most pay in cash.

I have to say that driving my Yamaha 400 SR always puts me in a great mood. Only has 24 horsepower, around 6 shy of what a CBR 300 puts out I believe. It is supremely comfortable, shifts very smoothly and it will get in between cars nearly as well as my Yamaha Nouvo Elegance will. It feels great, and due to its modest power I suppose there will be a lot less wear on the chain and other components. I love this bike, vibration, lack of electric starter and all. So what's the relevance of 250 to 300 c.c. bikes? In my opinion here in Thailand they are a lot more relevant than the much larger bikes and no doubt are a lot more fun to drive.