UK expats liable for cost of NHS treatment

[nong38]

I would doubt very much if the Border Control Computers and the NHS ones are linked, why would they be? If you were in the UK you would ask that question, if you were and expat you might worry, really there is no need to.

[i claudius]

I would doubt very much if the Border Control Computers and the NHS ones are linked, why would they be? If you were in the UK you would ask that question, if you were and expat you might worry, really there is no need to.

About a couple of years ago an ex copper posted on here ,he said none are linked and it is very hard for one dept to get information from another

[Mooner]

The "system" will always mock the righteous. All those people who follow the rules and preach to the masses about paying your way, serving your country etc.

Truth is your country doesn't give a <deleted> about you! They cause public discussions on immigrants etc to deflect the billions they spend on war and space exploration.

One causes pain and suffering for the gain of resources and the other is being explored for in the event of a serious threat to the planet would only benefit the elite.

[theoldgit]

There is another thread which details the experience of an expat UK Tax payer who has fallen foul of this new rule.

I have closed that thread, and it can be continued on this long running one.

nhs;-residents-in-thailand-now-excluded

[Eff1n2ret]

There is another thread which details the experience of an expat UK Tax payer who has fallen foul of this new rule.

I have closed that thread, and it can be continued on this long running one.

nhs;-residents-in-thailand-now-excluded

Might I suggest that the Mods change the title of this topic to reflect the problem of accessability to NHS treatment, as I suspect this is going to be a long-running topic of increasing importance?

I have two current observations on the matter:-

1) In the closed thread, "Flossie's" parting comment was that in future we would need to take out travel insurance for future visits to the UK. Fine in theory, but as a 70-year-old with a few "pre-existing conditions" I did not find a single policy available in Thailand which would include such conditions, or where you could pay a premium to do so. I did find several websites which do offer such policies, but when you get to the small print you find "available to UK residents only". If anyone knows of a policy available in Thailand for travel to Europe, I would be grateful to hear of it. The consequence seems to be that I, and I suspect many others, are effectively uninsurable, so in future years as one's health declines one has to choose between the risk of large bills for treatment or never seeing one's children or grandchildren again. I have written to the redoubtable Roger Gale MP about this, but he just got an "F-off" reply from the Minister. He has written to the Min again to try to get him to answer the points I made.

2) I am actually nearing the end of a three-week visit to England during which a chest condition got so bad that a week last Saturday I went in to the local A & E. At reception the lady stuck my details into the computer - "Surname? - First name? - Date of birth? - oh, that's XYZ Road is it? (my former address, which I still own) - that's fine, I don't need to ask you any more!" So, although not having been near my GP for 6 years it seems I'm still registered with him, which is a little reassuring. The doctor whom I saw many hours later suggested I should stay in overnight but I declined, partly because I was feeling a bit better, partly because I didn't want to push my luck, but mainly because i wanted to maximise my time with my grandkids.

I'm looking forward to getting back to Thailand so I can get fully fit again.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Eff1n2ret

[theoldgit]

@Eff1n2ret, I'm sorry to learn about your health problems during your visit to the UK, I hope you make a full and speedy recovery.

I have done as you suggested and amended the topic title.

Like many here I was appalled at the u-turn that introduced this new charging regime and I wrote to David Cameron with my concerns on the issue prior to the election, I got a standard fob off from some correspondence unit, way down the food chain, their reply is in post #50. Now the election is over the correspondence unit cannot blame the "no actual Government in power at the moment", so I intend writing again to No 10 and the Health Minister, I'm not expecting another U-turn but I will certainly call foul and will attempt to point that this short sighted policy could drive expats back to the UK where they will be covered for anything NHS, have their pensions uprated and even get a free bus pass and a few other odds and sods. I will leave it to their number crunchers to work out the likelihood of that happening, it's numbers that count here not people.

Of course if I was still resident in the UK, as I'm over 60 I wouldn't be liable for NI insurance contributions and would pay the same income tax on my State and Civil Service Pensions as I do now, though I concede that I would pay more into the economy via my everyday spending.

Like your good self I'm caught in the pre-existing conditions get out with travel insurers and also like yourself have found it impossible to obtain cover here in Thailand, as you say UK insurers wont provide cover to non UK residents, even though I passed there medical screening test. I'm also about to embark on a trip to the UK and mainland Europe for which I'm only partially covered.

The crazy thing is that if we returned to the UK to live my partner could "buy" NHS cover for £200 a year and whilst I would be covered as a resident UK resident, the option of buying cover on a visit isn't available.

I suspect that if I had a problem on my visit that I wasn't covered for, I will actually buy insurance, I would say that I've returned to the UK for good and test their reaction. I do wonder if Flossie tried this.

I do wonder if this might be the tipping point to make affected expats reconsider their position.

[trevoromgh]

Thanks for renaming my thread to keep things relevant and up-to-date. As I still live in the UK for most of the year I've noticed some changes to NHS working practices which might go some way to indicate that they are seeking to introduce NHS charging on expats/foreigners as soon as possible.

In my local NHS Trust hospital they have introduced a single out-patients reception area rather than every department having their own reception (which seems more efficient I guess) and recently on arrival I've noticed they ask a 'new' question namely "Have you been out of the country in the last 12 months?" to which I answered "No" to escape what presumably would be the third degree on where I've been and for how long.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone else who has visited a UK hospital has had a similar experience?

[Henryford]

I thought the rule previously was if you returned to the UK and stated that you were now permanently residing in the UK (as opposed to a visitor) you were able to use the NHS free. Has that now changed? If you just turned up at A&E asking for treatment how would they know you have been living abroad. Your passport is "lost" and you are a normal UK citizen.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Henryford

[trevoromgh]

I thought the rule previously was if you returned to the UK and stated that you were now permanently residing in the UK (as opposed to a visitor) you were able to use the NHS free. Has that now changed? If you just turned up at A&E asking for treatment how would they know you have been living abroad. Your passport is "lost" and you are a normal UK citizen.

Not so much that you are already residing in the UK but it is your intention to do so after your medical treatment and they will expect to see evidence of that the intention was planned already although they are rather vague currently about what that means exactly. The worrying thing is Jeremy Hunt is leaving the responsibility for deciding whether you meet the criteria down to each NHS Trust which could mean they each interpret the law in a different manner !

[emilymat]

I thought the rule previously was if you returned to the UK and stated that you were now permanently residing in the UK (as opposed to a visitor) you were able to use the NHS free. Has that now changed? If you just turned up at A&E asking for treatment how would they know you have been living abroad. Your passport is "lost" and you are a normal UK citizen.

Not so much that you are already residing in the UK but it is your intention to do so after your medical treatment and they will expect to see evidence of that the intention was planned already although they are rather vague currently about what that means exactly. The worrying thing is Jeremy Hunt is leaving the responsibility for deciding whether you meet the criteria down to each NHS Trust which could mean they each interpret the law in a different manner !

You make an important point in your last sentence.

Very few people 'work for the NHS' - perhaps a few thousand. The remainder are employed by NHS Trusts directly, which are self standing in respect as to how they implement the directives from Whitehall. Some are more zealous than others in this respect.

[NoshowJones]

My doctor doesnt give a stuff that i live here ,when i told him he said you paid in your entitled ,see you next year.

And neither does mine, he's a long term friend of mine, but the problem might arise if I'm admitted to hospital during a visit.

I suffered a heart attack six months ago down in Singapore which, whilst my doctor says I'm ok to travel, means I'm unlikely to be able to get any insurance cover for a visit.

I'm not arguing that the UK doesn't face tremendous difficulties that need to be addressed but I think we're soft targets and if we exercised our right to return could end up costing them more.

One of the reasons the UK 'face tremendous difficulties' is because the government put themselves first.

They have been awarded a 10% wage increase, while the nurses etc only got 1%.

and let's not forget all the overseas aid, and handouts to all these Immigrants.etc,etc,etc.

[NoshowJones]

Would anyone here like to nip over to the topic 'Forced to return to home country-What would you do'

Then go to post #151.

[theoldgit]

One of the reasons the UK 'face tremendous difficulties' is because the government put themselves first.

They have been awarded a 10% wage increase, while the nurses etc only got 1%.

Whilst it irks me to defend the government, they didn't award themselves a 10% increase, and you never suggested they did, it was an independent pay body, set up by a previous government, that made the award.

I understand that a number of MP's went on record to say that increase was unjustified, adding they wouldn't accept the rise.

[NoshowJones]

One of the reasons the UK 'face tremendous difficulties' is because the government put themselves first.

They have been awarded a 10% wage increase, while the nurses etc only got 1%.

Whilst it irks me to defend the government, they didn't award themselves a 10% increase, and you never suggested they did, it was an independent pay body, set up by a previous government, that made the award.

I understand that a number of MP's went on record to say that increase was unjustified, adding they wouldn't accept the rise.

That's true OG, but these MPs who are saying they won't accept the rise, they are only trying to make themselves look good in front of the electorate.

If they are genuine, and what MPs are? all they have to do is give it to charity, and we all know that won't happen.

While I'm here, can you tell me if posters are stopping to post on the UK Pensions Forum, it has been stuck at 37 for ages, or am I missing something?

[NoshowJones]

After some more digging around I've found this Daily Mail article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-190218/Ex-pat-pensioners-denied-NHS-treatment.html in which the then Conservative health spokesman Liam Fox said :-

"There could be no clearer betrayal of hardworking British citizens than to deprive our own pensioners of the use of the NHS to which they have contributed

throughout their lives at a time when health tourists and illegal asylum seekers are making use of these very facilities."

So yet again I ask David Cameron why the big U-turn in policy !!?

and you think he would answer you. He is only interested in himself and his rich cohorts.

[theoldgit]

I recently wrote to the Health Secretary calling foul on this, as expected my note didn't make it past their Correspondence Unit and it was they who responded.

They stated that the NHS needs to be sustainable adding that the NHS is funded from general taxation rather than from National Insurance contributions, which are used mainly to pay for state pensions and similar benefits.

Interesting to see in writing that our National Insurance contributions are used mainly to pay for state pensions, I'll save that comparison for another day.

The response had quite a bit of waffle, but I found the statement that the NHS is funded by general taxation interesting, so I have now asked how can they can justify charging UK taxpayers who pay into the general taxation pot 150% of the actual cost of treatment, which would be free to other taxpayers, or non taxpayers, who happen to reside in the UK.

I suspect the reply that the eventual reply will contain more of the same waffle.

[rawhod]

Rather than asking why they charge 150% of actual NHS cost for expats, it would be interesting to ask why they charge expats at all for the use of NHS services, when expats, such as myself, still pay, and have payed all their working life, income tax which, they say, is funding the NHS.

Or, conversely, if expats are denied access to the NHS services, why do they still have to pay income tax, which, they say, is funding it.

Methinks they speak with forked tongue.

And I suspect his reply would be...

[Eff1n2ret]

I recently wrote to the Health Secretary calling foul on this, as expected my note didn't make it past their Correspondence Unit and it was they who responded.

They stated that the NHS needs to be sustainable adding that the NHS is funded from general taxation rather than from National Insurance contributions, which are used mainly to pay for state pensions and similar benefits.

Interesting to see in writing that our National Insurance contributions are used mainly to pay for state pensions, I'll save that comparison for another day.

The response had quite a bit of waffle, but I found the statement that the NHS is funded by general taxation interesting, so I have now asked how can they can justify charging UK taxpayers who pay into the general taxation pot 150% of the actual cost of treatment, which would be free to other taxpayers, or non taxpayers, who happen to reside in the UK.

I suspect the reply that the eventual reply will contain more of the same waffle.

I got a reply from the Minister via Sir Roger Gale, but " quite a bit of waffle" is all I got as well. I attach the letter which was sent to me by Sir R's secretary as a JPEG and is rather truncated as a result. But they've told you that the NHS is funded out of taxation, while telling me that the fact that you are a British Citizen paying tax doesn't make any difference. As Rawhod says, the real issue is why such as us should have to pay at all.

Frankly, I find the prospect of being hit with a bill for thousands for hospital treatment in my own country far more alarming than the few hundred quid I've lost through a "frozen pension". The absolute refusal to meet the points we are making makes me quite angry.

[Deserted]

You don't need to declare that you are abroad. Many people work cash in hand and aren't on the system. If your home address hasn't changed and mail is sent there, they won't know where you are.

[JB300]

Remember watching a documentary about how National Insurance had nothing to do with the NHS but the government at the time didn't want to be seen as introducing a new tax & used the term "National Insurance" so people would assume it was to help pay for NHS & not look at it as an additional tax.

IIRC, NI is supposed to help fund benefits, created when most people worked (or at least wanted to work) for a living so the mindset was that if you weren't working, it either wasn't your fault & you'd soon be working again (repaying in NI what's been given you) or you were retired & so had already contributed your fair share (which makes a mockery of Frozen pensions).

Edited August 14, 2015 by JB300

[evadgib]

Jeremy Hunt is equally lethargic re non resident constituents and interestingly has an SE Asian wife.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Hunt

[i claudius]

If you keep a UK address and doctor still ,like a friend of mine you can get operated on ,just like he has been

[emilymat]

Lets not worry ourselves to an early grave. Five years ago the government announced they would track down people using 'accommodation' addresses in the UK in order to maintain pension increases. They went further and stated the people supplying the address (.e.g. family members or whatever) would be prosecuted for aiding and abetting fraud. The pensioner would have the pension frozen until all the overpaid had been reclaimed.

How many cases of this have there been?. I know it influenced some people to come clean about non-residency, which was presumably the purpose.

By the way, my pension is frozen as I have always had my Thai address with DWP.

[chiang mai]

This whole piece is quite troubling and such a massive U-turn that many people will be quite worried I'm certain. And whilst we've long known that expat pensioners are soft targets, I believe the writing is on the wall, removal of personal allowances for expats will be next.

[MAJIC]

"anyone except the Tories"

The population has been deceived by Tories for many decades,and do people learn a lesson?.... sadly not!

[MAJIC]

I recently wrote to the Health Secretary calling foul on this, as expected my note didn't make it past their Correspondence Unit and it was they who responded.

They stated that the NHS needs to be sustainable adding that the NHS is funded from general taxation rather than from National Insurance contributions, which are used mainly to pay for state pensions and similar benefits.

Interesting to see in writing that our National Insurance contributions are used mainly to pay for state pensions, I'll save that comparison for another day.

The response had quite a bit of waffle, but I found the statement that the NHS is funded by general taxation interesting, so I have now asked how can they can justify charging UK taxpayers who pay into the general taxation pot 150% of the actual cost of treatment, which would be free to other taxpayers, or non taxpayers, who happen to reside in the UK.

I suspect the reply that the eventual reply will contain more of the same waffle.

NI Contributions have been downgraded for years,according to how Politicians choose to use their propaganda i.e I distinctly remember being told for many years that NI Contributions went towards our State Pensions, now it's been downgraded to just another benefit,so after paying in for 40-45 years it's now classed as a benefit that is a gift, and all part of the Lazy bastard handout Brigade. Look it up at the DWP and see for yourself the official classification! it's shocking how we are so demoralised we allow these crooks to treat us like brainless idiots!

Edited August 29, 2015 by MAJIC

[shirtless]

It seems like screwing joe citizen is all the governments of the western world is good at hell wait there great a running a country into the ground.

[i claudius]

"anyone except the Tories"

The population has been deceived by Tories for many decades,and do people learn a lesson?.... sadly not!

You say that and I agree,but it was Blair who fought tooth and nail right up to the European court of human rights to ensure we did not get our yearly rises, labour were the worst of all offenders

[Expattaff1308]

"anyone except the Tories"

The population has been deceived by Tories for many decades,and do people learn a lesson?.... sadly not!

and not only the Tories, it was the Labour Government that fought against pension increases in Brussels.

[emilymat]

"anyone except the Tories"

The population has been deceived by Tories for many decades,and do people learn a lesson?.... sadly not!

and not only the Tories, it was the Labour Government that fought against pension increases in Brussels.

That's perfectly true, although I prefer to think it was more of a treasury issue rather than straight political one.

You know what these civil servants are like!. It's their money! They would take everything of us if they had the chance.