Are More or Fewer Westerners Relocating to Thailand?

[Scott]

In your opinion and based on your experience, are more people from Western countries relocating to Thailand or is the number of people leaving increasing?

Please feel free to post a comment.

[Scott]

Working in the education field might be a little different because there are some tighter rules for teachers than in past years. These rules have caught up with a number of people. In my experience, I have seen fewer Westerners coming to Thailand and I have also noted that a larger number have been leaving for different countries or returning to their home country.

The one group who seem to be arriving in larger number than in the past are people from South Africa.

[Praematura]

In sheer numbers 75% of my friends that retired here moved back to the USA. Some are thinking of visiting South America, some are considering returning to try Vietnam or PI.

The only friends that remain here are because they have a wife and home here. The single guys all left. The married guys whose spouse had a U.S. Passport are gone. The hardcore guys that used to come whenever they had vacation time are going elsewhere.

The complaints range from the visa system is a pain to just a general feeling that Thailand has changed since they opened the floodgates to the Chinese a few years ago.

I retired here in February. I thought I and my wife who holds a U.S. Passport would live on the beach and relax. But the reality is this place has changed. The infrastructure is overwhelmed by masses of Chinese tourists. Their busses block traffic such that it feels like I'm in Bangkok at times. Their sheer numbers and lack of civility ruin the beach or any destination you take the family to. I came to Thailand because of its slow pace, nice beaches, etc. Sadly this looks more like a province in China than the Thailand I remembered.

Hopefully Hua Hin is better as we are going there next week. I heard Phuket is overrun with Chinese as well?

[willyumiii]

In sheer numbers 75% of my friends that retired here moved back to the USA. Some are thinking of visiting South America, some are considering returning to try Vietnam or PI.

The only friends that remain here are because they have a wife and home here. The single guys all left. The married guys whose spouse had a U.S. Passport are gone. The hardcore guys that used to come whenever they had vacation time are going elsewhere.

The complaints range from the visa system is a pain to just a general feeling that Thailand has changed since they opened the floodgates to the Chinese a few years ago.

I retired here in February. I thought I and my wife who holds a U.S. Passport would live on the beach and relax. But the reality is this place has changed. The infrastructure is overwhelmed by masses of Chinese tourists. Their busses block traffic such that it feels like I'm in Bangkok at times. Their sheer numbers and lack of civility ruin the beach or any destination you take the family to. I came to Thailand because of its slow pace, nice beaches, etc. Sadly this looks more like a province in China than the Thailand I remembered.

Hopefully Hua Hin is better as we are going there next week. I heard Phuket is overrun with Chinese as well?

Those darn Asians!

Why do they need to visit Asia?

Once Americans were considered the rudist tourists.

I always thought the Germans were very harsh and rude..

Then came the damn Russians!

Now it's the Chinese....

Who's next?

Seems there is always someone not to like!

[rijit]

Dont know anyone that wants to move to thailand,10/15 years ago yeah now no.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[willyumiii]

I do not know if overall numbers have increased or decreased.

But, I do think the number of westerners has increased quite a bit here in Issan over the past few years.

Talking to them, I find many have lived in southern westernized Thailand previously and have either recently discovered the difference here in Issan, or have recently tired of the westernized style of life and tourist influence in the south.

As far as actual figures of those living in Thailand, would it be possible to gt some numbers from Thai Immigration on that?

Edited May 4, 2015 by willyumiii

[JohnOFphon]

Now that I'm divorced and my ex wife's house and car are paid for..Guess who did that.. I heading to Northern Mexico. Driving distance to my home city.

I'm not unhappy with Thai people, only Thai government.

[Davedub]

Hard to say - I stopped visiting Bangkok when the Thong Lo Police were randomly persecuting farang on the street last year. I was a victim myself, it was incredibly intimidating. I was detained on the street for about 20 minutes under a barrage of verbal threats to my liberty, desite the fact I'd done nothing wrong and was being super polite. I have not been back to the city of angels since.

I'd imagine numbers are down, as I know I'm not alone in seeing Bangkok as too dangerous these days. I do miss some of my favourite restaurants though!

[TigerandDog]

After coming to Thailand for 10 years on holidays, I moved here (BKK) last September. My mates back in Oz will also be moving here when they are ready to retire. There are many differences between the way things are done her to Oz, but that's Thailand, and part of the reason we all love the place. If it was the exactly the same as our home countries there would be no reason to come here other than weather and cheaper cost of living. It's a shame there are so many whingers on TV. Rather than hop on TV and complain, if people are so unhappy here, why not just go back home or find another place to live.

[hextac]

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place else I'd be on the quickest flight out of this place.

[NancyL]

I can speak as the president of CM Expats Club, a group popular with newly arrived English-speaking retirees and those spending time in Chiang Mai investigating retirement. Our new membership numbers for the past year are up dramatically, after having been flat for the previous three years, but that may be partially due to changes in the leadership and focus of the club and not just the growth in number of retirees coming to Chiang Mai.

But, in looking at the statistics, we're seeing a big growth in the number of Aussies coming in and a big decline in people from the U.K. The club always has been popular with people from North America and they account for about 40% of our total new members. We're seeing a big growth in the number of expat-expat couples and single women and a big decline in men on their own or with Thai partners.

We're also seeing an increase in membership among people from Hong Kong and Singapore, so it's really not fair to say that all our members are westerners. At this time, they aren't a significant portion of our membership, but it's a growing and active segment.

Edited May 4, 2015 by NancyL

[No Apologist]

From my own, anedotal obversation - I've lived for 5 years in a large apt complex, with a hundred or so apts, and which has traditionally been all westerners. As of the last year, there's about 4 of us left, and I'm leaving at the end of the month. The staff and owners seem very aware of this. So, my personal take, would be 'less' at this time.

[wirat69]

This survey outcome will be totally invalid as there is no time frame for the comparative..... for my penny, there are more coming to Thailand than when I was first here in 1980.... but for someone who came here only 2 or 3 years ago....This is a comparative survey without a defined baseline.... what a waste of an opportunity.....

[Berkshire]

I can speak as the president of CM Expats Club, a group popular with newly arrived English-speaking retirees and those spending time in Chiang Mai investigating retirement. Our new membership numbers for the past year are up dramatically, after having been flat for the previous three years, but that may be partially due to changes in the leadership and focus of the club and not just the growth in number of retirees coming to Chiang Mai.

But, in looking at the statistics, we're seeing a big growth in the number of Aussies coming in and a big decline in people from the U.K. The club always has been popular with people from North America and they account for about 40% of our total new members. We're seeing a big growth in the number of expat-expat couples and single women and a big decline in men on their own or with Thai partners.

We're also seeing an increase in membership among people from Hong Kong and Singapore, so it's really not fair to say that all our members are westerners. At this time, they aren't a significant portion of our membership, but it's a growing and active segment.

That has been my observation as well, many more foreigners in Chiang Mai, both western and Asians. The "good" is that many more businesses catering to foreign taste have sprung up, offering a vast variety of options on a great many things, from movies, to restaurants, to mega malls, etc The "bad" is that...well, there's just so many darn foreigners. And some of these folks do nothing but complain and complain if things aren't more like back home (silly, I know). But it's good to see the changing demographics, such as expat-expat couples and single women. Perhaps the stigma of Thailand being the sexpat destination is changing.

[Just1Voice]

I live in Chiang Mai, on the Outer Ring road near BoSang. Those of you who live here will know where I'm talking about. That puts me and my wife about 15 kilometers east of the city proper, and that's just fine with both of us. We live in a moo ban of about 100 houses, with only one other American and his Thai wife, and one German with his Thai family.

So, needless to say, we're "off the beaten path" of tourists and others out here, and don't really notice it till we go into the city. Then it's Big Change! Definitely more foreigners of various nationalities than there was when I moved here 7 years ago. The most notable difference is at CM Immigration. 7-8 years ago, you could show up just about any time of day and do your 90 day in 20 minutes or less. No long waits for Visa extensions, etc. Definitely not true any more. Now if you want a Marriage or Retirement extension, you have to get there around 4 am (or pay someone to do it for you), to get an early queue number. 90 day extensions can take 1-3 hours, depending on when you get there. Supposedly they are opening a new, bigger office near the Government Complex in Mae Rim, but so far it's only talk.

Most of the ones I have met are either Brits or Canadians, and surprisingly few Americans, but have no idea why in regards to that fact.

The one positive thing I've noted is that there are more good western style restaurants, so that's a plus.

[willyumiii]

In sheer numbers 75% of my friends that retired here moved back to the USA. Some are thinking of visiting South America, some are considering returning to try Vietnam or PI.

The only friends that remain here are because they have a wife and home here. The single guys all left. The married guys whose spouse had a U.S. Passport are gone. The hardcore guys that used to come whenever they had vacation time are going elsewhere.

The complaints range from the visa system is a pain to just a general feeling that Thailand has changed since they opened the floodgates to the Chinese a few years ago.

I retired here in February. I thought I and my wife who holds a U.S. Passport would live on the beach and relax. But the reality is this place has changed. The infrastructure is overwhelmed by masses of Chinese tourists. Their busses block traffic such that it feels like I'm in Bangkok at times. Their sheer numbers and lack of civility ruin the beach or any destination you take the family to. I came to Thailand because of its slow pace, nice beaches, etc. Sadly this looks more like a province in China than the Thailand I remembered.

Hopefully Hua Hin is better as we are going there next week. I heard Phuket is overrun with Chinese as well?

The Chinese influx doen't even register in my radar...not all of us live in Pattaya/Hua Hin and what not.

A quick rundown of reasons for me would be (in no particular order)

Higher prices (strong baht), not much rapport/fun with thais anymore, thai women have become 'ugly' in more ways than one,relatively difficult visas, no rapport among farangs (loners, alcoholics, nutcases, family types)

The only 'constant' left over is the eternal summer.

For many people this is not reaon enough to stay.

I know exactly what you mean!

Those damn "family types".

They ruin Thailand for everyone.

Not running around spending money like there is no tomorrow.

Making the bar girls feel neglected and depressed.

Not expecting the people of Thailand to be more like the people "back home".

Those "family types" they are very dangerous and very boring! (sarc )

I am a "family type" and would not have it anyother way.

This is not Disneyland for me...it is home.

[TheKnave]

Safety in numbers. Nancy's organization helps people cope with the hurdles that Thailand presents. Also, let's face it: Chiang Mai is really Thailand Lite. It's by far the most farang-friendly city in the country. So, in my opinion, it is a special case: retirement to Chiang Mai, but not necessarily to Thailand. Before anyone gets defensive, I'm not saying that no one in CM "gets" Thailand, but the support there enables folks to choose the degree of immersion they are comfortable with.

Contrast that with the people who move to Isaan, or to Chantaburi, etc. They have to find their way without much help (except by "friends", and, of course, this forum).

Generally, I think the trend has been that it is much more difficult for the newly arrived to negotiate the field. Even many of us who have been around for a while (1982), have found it tedious enough to rethink our situations.

I don't think any particular ethnicity or nationality has much to do with it, and I have been keenly sensitive to the seemingly endless newbies wanting to retire there without any well thought out purpose. My solution has always to go where it was harder, and force myself to adapt by learning Thai, immersion, etc.

Rather, I think the internet, and growing materialism in Thailand just dilute, and make less attractive the things I moved there for.

I hope things will come full circle, but I see a lot of pain in the process. I truly miss living there, but I doubt things will sufficiently reset in my lifetime to make me want to return.

[quandow]

I've been here nine years this October and have already purchased my ticket for Mexico. I could be perfectly happy for the rest of my life in Thailand if it weren't for the present government. My little inner voice is saying "get the heck outta Dodge," this man is not playing with a full deck of cards and that will eventually trickle down to all facets of life. It's already bad enough - as a musician it is illegal for me to play UNPAID in public, but the harassment from the BIB in Bangkok described by an earlier post can get worse as they grow bolder when the PM gets cemented into his position. And there are other circumstances we can't even mention on this forum that are going to cause a great upheaval. I don't want to be around for ANY of that. I arrived when Thaksin was ousted, and not a THING was noticed by me or my friends. THIS PM is making serious waves felt by all!

[keestha]

My experience is mainly with foreigners coming to Thailand and starting small businesses, I fit in this category myself.

Late eighties/early nineties, it was not so difficult to make money with a bar, restaurant, guesthouse or travel agency. Thai people still didn't know how to run a business geared for western customers. Simple example: my first business was a guesthouse/restaurant/bar I started in Hua Hin in 1994. The first 2 years, I sold like 25 breakfasts per day, Thai people still didn't know how to make simple western food. But after 2 years, they had discovered it is not so hard to fry eggs and toast bread, and I was down to 5 breakfast per day, just the people staying in my guesthouse.

Nowadays when the tourism starts developing somewhere, Thai people will flock in right away and open farang geared businesses.

The growing beach resort where I have been residing since 2000, I have seen westerner run restaurants, bars, diving schools, travel agencies and guesthouses come and go, tough luck with high rents and lots of competition.

By the way nice survey Scott, I appreciate what you're doing, keep them going.

[NancyL]

I just finished reading "Amazing Thailand" by Brad Walker, a fairly recent book that purports to be an insider's guide to show newly arrived foreigners how to live successfully in Thailand. The author, a very amusing writer, assumes that everyone is just like him and spends the first third of the book entertaining the reader with stories of his first few forays into the country where it took him months to get beyond Nana and Pattaya. Of course, he was lead out of that candy store into the wilderness of Issan with predictable results, only the girl he selected happened to have a pretty good family that took his side in the inevitable dispute with his two-timing "wife". Interestingly, she left and he stayed in a house that he paid for, but doesn't own taking care of a child who isn't his own offspring.

Finally, later in the book, the writer settles down to give some good advice and excellent insight into what expat life must be life for the lone foreigner in an Issan village. It's a long way from the bright lights of Pattaya. That lifestyle has got to get old in a hurry and become untenable as one gets older. In retirement, one wants friends, meaningful activities where you're making a contribution to society, the ability to continue to learn, experience new activities, see new things, and to keep yourself healthy thru access to good quality medical care and recreational facilities like swimming pools, health clubs, golf courses, racket ball leagues, etc.

I wonder if the lack of this is some reason why people leave Thailand. They just can't see themselves growing old where they are.

Edited May 4, 2015 by NancyL

[willyumiii]

I live in Chiang Mai, on the Outer Ring road near BoSang. Those of you who live here will know where I'm talking about. That puts me and my wife about 15 kilometers east of the city proper, and that's just fine with both of us. We live in a moo ban of about 100 houses, with only one other American and his Thai wife, and one German with his Thai family.

So, needless to say, we're "off the beaten path" of tourists and others out here, and don't really notice it till we go into the city. Then it's Big Change! Definitely more foreigners of various nationalities than there was when I moved here 7 years ago. The most notable difference is at CM Immigration. 7-8 years ago, you could show up just about any time of day and do your 90 day in 20 minutes or less. No long waits for Visa extensions, etc. Definitely not true any more. Now if you want a Marriage or Retirement extension, you have to get there around 4 am (or pay someone to do it for you), to get an early queue number. 90 day extensions can take 1-3 hours, depending on when you get there. Supposedly they are opening a new, bigger office near the Government Complex in Mae Rim, but so far it's only talk.

Most of the ones I have met are either Brits or Canadians, and surprisingly few Americans, but have no idea why in regards to that fact.

The one positive thing I've noted is that there are more good western style restaurants, so that's a plus.

For what it is worth...

I am American and I know a major factor with how many Americans visit or live in Thailand is the 20+ hour flight to get here and then return home.

If you are a large farang like me, 6 foot 3 inches, that is a very uncomfortable flight in a little airplane seat!

Most people who live in Thailand, do still like to visit friends and family back home from time to time.

I have had flights with difficulties that took more then 35 hours to get from BKK to San Francisco!

Keep in mind, the only flights from USA to Thailand are from California,( either San Francisco or L.A. ) and if you do not live in California, it requires other flights just to get to California.

I think this is the reason you see far fewer people in Thailand from USA than you do from Europe, Australia, or Asia.

Just about everything found in Thailand can be found much closer to USA as well.

[Wadan]

it seems there is definitely a change to many of the expats living here. Few years ago there was a more positive attitude. Now it seems something or things have changed. In the last year eleven of my friends or people I know have left mainly for Portugal and Latin America. There are three others planning on leaving in the next little while. I don't consider this whining. it is simply stating unfolding reality. I hope it does not continue as I lose some really good friends here.

[Lone Ranger]

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In sheer numbers 75% of my friends that retired here moved back to the USA. Some are thinking of visiting South America, some are considering returning to try Vietnam or PI.

The only friends that remain here are because they have a wife and home here. The single guys all left. The married guys whose spouse had a U.S. Passport are gone. The hardcore guys that used to come whenever they had vacation time are going elsewhere.

The complaints range from the visa system is a pain to just a general feeling that Thailand has changed since they opened the floodgates to the Chinese a few years ago.

I retired here in February. I thought I and my wife who holds a U.S. Passport would live on the beach and relax. But the reality is this place has changed. The infrastructure is overwhelmed by masses of Chinese tourists. Their busses block traffic such that it feels like I'm in Bangkok at times. Their sheer numbers and lack of civility ruin the beach or any destination you take the family to. I came to Thailand because of its slow pace, nice beaches, etc. Sadly this looks more like a province in China than the Thailand I remembered.

Hopefully Hua Hin is better as we are going there next week. I heard Phuket is overrun with Chinese as well?

Hua Hin is still Chinese free on the beaches ...Koh Takiab beach is the best in Thailand at the southern end of the city 10 mins drive from centre with pristine beaches,unpolluted seas.& no as yet Chineses coaachs unlike Cha AM 20 mins drive North where Fri-Mon it is jam packed full of them...so come & enjoy this serene & beautiful city & it's superb beaches....you will find peace here again.

[Loptr]

I've been here nine years this October and have already purchased my ticket for Mexico. I could be perfectly happy for the rest of my life in Thailand if it weren't for the present government. My little inner voice is saying "get the heck outta Dodge," this man is not playing with a full deck of cards and that will eventually trickle down to all facets of life. It's already bad enough - as a musician it is illegal for me to play UNPAID in public, but the harassment from the BIB in Bangkok described by an earlier post can get worse as they grow bolder when the PM gets cemented into his position. And there are other circumstances we can't even mention on this forum that are going to cause a great upheaval. I don't want to be around for ANY of that. I arrived when Thaksin was ousted, and not a THING was noticed by me or my friends. THIS PM is making serious waves felt by all!

Funny, I was chatting with a foreigner last week that moved to Chiang Mai last year from Mexico after living there for many years... His reason, safety.. The cartels of narco trafficantes have all but taken over the country, even down on the Yucatan peninsula... I know folks that retired to Monterey 10 years ago and have since moved on, either back to the US or to Costa Rica and Panama... Living in Texas we used to cross the border into Mexico on weekends for holidays... Not anymore considering that hundreds of Americans have disappeared after crossing in Mexico over the last 10 years... Good luck and take care to keep your head attached living in Mexico these days...

[NancyL]

I live in Chiang Mai, on the Outer Ring road near BoSang. Those of you who live here will know where I'm talking about. That puts me and my wife about 15 kilometers east of the city proper, and that's just fine with both of us. We live in a moo ban of about 100 houses, with only one other American and his Thai wife, and one German with his Thai family.

So, needless to say, we're "off the beaten path" of tourists and others out here, and don't really notice it till we go into the city. Then it's Big Change! Definitely more foreigners of various nationalities than there was when I moved here 7 years ago. The most notable difference is at CM Immigration. 7-8 years ago, you could show up just about any time of day and do your 90 day in 20 minutes or less. No long waits for Visa extensions, etc. Definitely not true any more. Now if you want a Marriage or Retirement extension, you have to get there around 4 am (or pay someone to do it for you), to get an early queue number. 90 day extensions can take 1-3 hours, depending on when you get there. Supposedly they are opening a new, bigger office near the Government Complex in Mae Rim, but so far it's only talk.

Most of the ones I have met are either Brits or Canadians, and surprisingly few Americans, but have no idea why in regards to that fact.

The one positive thing I've noted is that there are more good western style restaurants, so that's a plus.

For what it is worth...

I am American and I know a major factor with how many Americans visit or live in Thailand is the 20+ hour flight to get here and then return home.

If you are a large farang like me, 6 foot 3 inches, that is a very uncomfortable flight in a little airplane seat!

Most people who live in Thailand, do still like to visit friends and family back home from time to time.

I have had flights with difficulties that took more then 35 hours to get from BKK to San Francisco!

Keep in mind, the only flights from USA to Thailand are from California,( either San Francisco or L.A. ) and if you do not live in California, it requires other flights just to get to California.

I think this is the reason you see far fewer people in Thailand from USA than you do from Europe, Australia, or Asia.

Just about everything found in Thailand can be found much closer to USA as well.

You need to check out Korean Airlines. They have one-stop connections to many major cities in the U.S. -- not just west coast cities. Their connections into Chicago, Detroit, Washington, NYC, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Toronto, etc are excellent with layovers of less than 4 hours at the great airport in Seoul, Korea if your flight originates from either Bangkok or Chiang Mai. Yes, Chiang Mai! You can go straight from Chiang Mai-Seoul-North America east coast in less than 24 hours on Korean Air. No need to go thru Swampy. You clear customs and immigration in Chiang Mai.

Yet one more reason to retire in Chiang Mai.

Edited May 4, 2015 by NancyL

[GuestHouse]

Keep in mind that the surge in western expats moving to Thailand occurred in the immediate aftermath of the Asian economic crisis; since then the Bhat has slowly recovered, effectively doubling prices for those who moved to Thailand at the bottom of the downturn.

Added to which the west has since had its own economic crisis.

The condo I have a unit in was, five years ago, full of western expats, the carpark full of their 'Fortuna's' and a daily coming and going of guys splashing cash.

They've almost all disappeared, the lucky ones managed to sell up and move some of their cash back, the unwise sold assets in order to put off their inevitable return, the least fortunate simply had their assets stripped from them.

Guys who have gone back after five or six years out of circulation in the working world and having spent/lost a chunk of their assets, well I hope they have some happy memories, because they must be suffering.

[sawadee1947]

I can speak as the president of CM Expats Club, a group popular with newly arrived English-speaking retirees and those spending time in Chiang Mai investigating retirement. Our new membership numbers for the past year are up dramatically, after having been flat for the previous three years, but that may be partially due to changes in the leadership and focus of the club and not just the growth in number of retirees coming to Chiang Mai.

But, in looking at the statistics, we're seeing a big growth in the number of Aussies coming in and a big decline in people from the U.K. The club always has been popular with people from North America and they account for about 40% of our total new members. We're seeing a big growth in the number of expat-expat couples and single women and a big decline in men on their own or with Thai partners.

We're also seeing an increase in membership among people from Hong Kong and Singapore, so it's really not fair to say that all our members are westerners. At this time, they aren't a significant portion of our membership, but it's a growing and active segment.

I can speak as the president of CM Expats Club....

never heard about that club. Where are you meeting? What time? Any phone number?

[Wadan]

yes I too would like that information and possible become a member. Never heard of this club

[arthurwait]

Thailand is much more expensive than it used to be. The overall numbers are down, but it does seem there are more people in employment and owning businesses away from tourist areas here.

The old type of ex-pat here are now getting what they came for in South America, Phillipines, Cambodia, Eastern Europe etc....... it's all the Japanese fault.

Thailand has become over priced for what it offers for them and most other ex-pats.

As said it does seem more ex-pats you meet here are employed and or with families.

The ex-pat night owl numbers in tourist towns and in lower Sukhumvit seem to be down massively.

And yes the tourist numbers will continue to decline for several reasons, but yes because of the Chinese tourists making every tourist attraction unbearable and no they aren't comparable to other previous tourist groups as the other tourists didn't come in groups of hundreds treating anybody else as if they don't exist.

[Loptr]

yes I too would like that information and possible become a member. Never heard of this club

http://www.chiangmaiexpatsclub.com/