Things I love about Lao

[Ban Merry]

The architecture French influences and the food. I was surprised at the variety of farang food. Everything's cheap. Rickshaw drivers going anywhere for about the price of a bottle of water.

Perhaps rickshaws but motorbike rentals, food and accommodation all higher than Thailand with less infrastructure. They generally source many items from Thailand and mark it up. However, I like Laos but it is not cheap compared to Thailand.

Accommodation is more expensive than in Thailand but you can still find guest houses for 350-450 per night. Western food is very much the same price as restaurants in Thai, Beer and Cigarettes ar much more cheaper than Thailand. Get in the Burbs a bit more and you'll see the difference in pricing.

Is English language schools available in Laos?

If so, is they more expensive than Thailand or is they much more cheaper?

Vientiane International School round 15,000-18000usd , Phayathip Inter school round 4000-5000usd , Pattana School 2500usd all per year. Don't know prices in Thailand so couldn't say whether Laos is cheaper or not for schools.

[KonaRain]

Thanks, guys..I liked my visa run to Vientiane..I get to move to Asia soon. I have a photo..but just google Lao architecture..I have bandwith trouble where I live in Kona Island.

Thanks for the inspiration!!

[Tomtomtom69]

To see and enjoy the best of Luang Prabang and Vietinenne you should have gone 15 years ago when things were half the price they are now,having said that the bulk of people have dragged themselves out of poverty and we should not deny them a better life.

One thing that stuck me while I was there 15 years ago was the fluency of the English spoken, far better than their counterparts in Thailand.

As has been said best sough dough and beer you could find anywhere and generally pleasant people.

Luang Prabang is being invaded by Chinese touriss tso if you are going pick their low season

English fluency in Laos is pretty low - as low as, if not lower than Thailand. However, I don't care as I am fluent in Thai and by extension, relatively fluent in Lao. I have noticed that in Laos, even in central Vientiane, the locals are somewhat more likely to speak to you in Lao without even knowing you can speak it, than in Thailand. This makes me feel more like "I'm one of them" because instead of shopkeepers and cashiers giving you either the silent treatment or giving you the price of something in difficult to understand English, they generally just say it in Lao, which is nice. Or maybe they just figure I know their language (which of course I do). Although generally in Thailand most of the time it's a similar story, as mentioned there are also lots of cashiers who won't say anything when a foreigner comes up to them, unless said foreigner says "Sawatdee krab" or engages them in conversation in Thai first.

Vang Vieng is being invaded by Korean tourists and they aren't any better than the Chinese. In fact, in my experience at least Chinese sleep at night whereas the Koreans go off to the pool and splash around, laughing and just not giving a crap about other hotel guests desire to get some sleep, at 2 or 3am in the morning. That was my recent experience at a hotel in Vang Vieng.

[Tomtomtom69]

Things I like:

1. The beer (much better than Thai beer)
2. The coffee (slightly better than Thai coffee)
3. The bread (there is no such thing as Thai bread)
4. The nature is probably less spoiled than in Thailand.
5. Cheap prices (unlike Thailand)

I haven't spent too much time there so can't mention much more I like than that.

Things I dislike:

1. I have been scammed there more than any other place in Asia ...even by my own hotel and even the immigration).
2. The lack of massage. And I find the massage parlors they do have very uncomfortable, since there are usually several underage girls working there. Something which you don't notice in Thailand in most massage parlors all year round.
3. Being offered opium in the street (often).
4. Very little to do..gets a bit boring
5. And I'm sorry, but I never noticed any exceptional friendliness. More in Thailand, Vietnam or Indonesia from my experience.

Sorry if my balanced post upsets anyone.

Things I dislike,

1. Find this hard to believe.

2. Haven't seen any under age.

3. Yes, this does happen.

4. Depends on what you want to do.

5. Again find this hard to believe.

1. I agree - while it is possible to get scammed, it's generally much less likely than most other countries in the region. Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand are all countries where scamming is far more prevalent. While most of my experience with Lao immigration/customs have been quite good, there are the occasional grumpy overly communist officers who try to get things done in the most bureaucratic way possible or just enjoy their positions of authority and use them to talk down to you (this applies to both Lao and foreigners).

I encountered this just over a week ago when I drove my car into Laos at Vientiane and was asked to see the head customs guy to sign off on a form to put details of my car into the computer system. Although it was my 4th trip to Laos in my car, I didn't realize that every checkpoint uses their own system and therefore they couldn't find my car in the system despite having entered Laos 3 times with that car and exited at Vientiane twice. So when I put down 3 days on the form and told him we were heading to Vang Vieng, he got all official on me, asking me if 3 days was enough and if that were put in the system and I exceeded that period of time, a USD 10 per day overstay fine would be levied. I thought: "now, who reads that form anyway" but I guess I caught an official who got out of bed the wrong side that morning, or I was disturbing his viewing of the latest Thai lakorn on TV as it was around 9pm. So I corrected it and wrote 14 days even though I fully intended on only spending 3 days as that's all the time we had. In future, I'll just say 30 days no contest so there won't even be the possibility of encountering a grumpy official who comes down on me for no reason. And it wasn't the first time. Another time at the Lao-China border I encountered a grumpy official who held my passport and that of my Chinese travelling companion for about 10 minutes but that's a whole other story.

While one occasionally encounters grumpy officers on the Thai side too, they don''t usually express the same mentality that the Lao ones I've encountered do, not to mention Vietnamese officials. Thai officials tend to be far more pleasant to deal with. Conversely, ordinary Lao can be a lot more laid back and less likely to scam you than their Thai counterparts.

2. Lao massage is a lot less professional than Thai massage. I'm also not confident that any of them are registered or that their staff have any qualifications (unlike in Thailand where they do). Unless you are at a high-end massage shop located in a good hotel, it sucks and is always more expensive than Thailand. Although Lao massage places located in the touristy parts of Vientiane and Luang Prabang are not bad - you have to take a good look at them first before going inside. My feeling is that it's much easier to find good quality massage in Thailand than Laos. Even in Cambodia (Phnom Penh) I've head better and cheaper massage than in Laos.

3. I've only ever been offered marijuana, never opium. I heard that opium disappeared from Vientiane streets long ago. It might be a different story if you're trekking up in Muang Sing, former opium country, but as Muang Sing is no longer a major tourism drawcard (perhaps because they cleaned the place up) and now even in Vang Vieng, where opium shakes used to be common, it's no longer the case there either since 2012.

4. That's true, if you stay there for a while. Vientiane is a nice place for a quick visit, and every time I go I usually seek out my favorite restaurants or other places to chill, head to the night market etc. but if you're living there, you'll probably want to head up to Vang Vieng for kayaking, tubing, caving or something in order not to get too bored, or just head into Thailand and head for Udon Thani at least, where plenty of Lao go to every day.

5. I've encountered a lot of friendly people in Laos, yes even customs and immigration officials, but this has mostly, if not entirely been the case in smaller towns and smaller immigration checkpoints. In most towns and cities frequented by tourists, hospitality workers, restaurant staff are generally a bit surly and while they usually do what you want them to do, don't expect friendly banter. They will take your order without saying anything or confirming what you just said, hand you your food and then leave you alone until you ask for the bill. It's similar to Vietnam in that sense.

[Tomtomtom69]

Such a pity Laos doesn't have a retired ( O-A ) visa like Thailand

There are several unofficial ways to retire in Laos, each of which carries its own set of advantages and disadvantages. The first, most popular, and undoubtedly quickest method for remaining in Laos for the long term is to make use of successive thirty-day tourism visas, each extended to ninety days of validity from inside Laos.

These visas can be applied for back to back as you leave and return to Laos, with no formal limit on quantity of validity of the tourism visas. Thousands of foreigners in Laos reside in the country legally using this method, and an informal ‘visa run’ bus and tour industry has emerged for the sole purpose of serving foreign expatriates.

When I was in Vientiane just last week I again noticed the same signs "Mr. so and so, 1-year visa extension". I presume that like in Cambodia, you pay a few hundred dollars, hand in your passport and a photo and get it back a few days later with a 1-year visa extension no other paper work required?

However, why is it that there is almost absolutely no information about long-term Lao visas online? The only thing you will find is endless blog or forum post about how tourists can get the easier than easy 30-day visa on arrival but we all know that already. Am I right about the 1-year visa extension I have mentioned, or does it involve more paperwork than I have assumed? And why is it that there is so much readily available information available about 1-year Cambodian visa extensions but nothing about the process in Laos, other than the occasional mention of Lao business visas involving a lot of paperwork? Even long-term Burmese visas are shrouded in less mystery than Lao ones, despite Myanmar only having emerged from it's long-held isolation 4 years ago.

[Ban Merry]

Such a pity Laos doesn't have a retired ( O-A ) visa like Thailand

There are several unofficial ways to retire in Laos, each of which carries its own set of advantages and disadvantages. The first, most popular, and undoubtedly quickest method for remaining in Laos for the long term is to make use of successive thirty-day tourism visas, each extended to ninety days of validity from inside Laos.

These visas can be applied for back to back as you leave and return to Laos, with no formal limit on quantity of validity of the tourism visas. Thousands of foreigners in Laos reside in the country legally using this method, and an informal ‘visa run’ bus and tour industry has emerged for the sole purpose of serving foreign expatriates.

When I was in Vientiane just last week I again noticed the same signs "Mr. so and so, 1-year visa extension". I presume that like in Cambodia, you pay a few hundred dollars, hand in your passport and a photo and get it back a few days later with a 1-year visa extension no other paper work required?

However, why is it that there is almost absolutely no information about long-term Lao visas online? The only thing you will find is endless blog or forum post about how tourists can get the easier than easy 30-day visa on arrival but we all know that already. Am I right about the 1-year visa extension I have mentioned, or does it involve more paperwork than I have assumed? And why is it that there is so much readily available information available about 1-year Cambodian visa extensions but nothing about the process in Laos, other than the occasional mention of Lao business visas involving a lot of paperwork? Even long-term Burmese visas are shrouded in less mystery than Lao ones, despite Myanmar only having emerged from it's long-held isolation 4 years ago.

You are correct that you only need money and hand in your passport and a photo.However this only applies if you already have an existing 1-year business visa.

If you're 60 years old, you can enter the country for 30 days. Once finished you then need to go the immigration office and you can another 30 days extension for free. And so forth after this. All up you can stay for 90days for the cost of 30. You will have to leave the country for 1 month after this and then start the process again. This started at the beginning of this year but no one really knows. An Irish friend of mind has been doing this of late

[anotheruser]

Such a pity Laos doesn't have a retired ( O-A ) visa like Thailand

There are several unofficial ways to retire in Laos, each of which carries its own set of advantages and disadvantages. The first, most popular, and undoubtedly quickest method for remaining in Laos for the long term is to make use of successive thirty-day tourism visas, each extended to ninety days of validity from inside Laos.

These visas can be applied for back to back as you leave and return to Laos, with no formal limit on quantity of validity of the tourism visas. Thousands of foreigners in Laos reside in the country legally using this method, and an informal ‘visa run’ bus and tour industry has emerged for the sole purpose of serving foreign expatriates.

When I was in Vientiane just last week I again noticed the same signs "Mr. so and so, 1-year visa extension". I presume that like in Cambodia, you pay a few hundred dollars, hand in your passport and a photo and get it back a few days later with a 1-year visa extension no other paper work required?

However, why is it that there is almost absolutely no information about long-term Lao visas online? The only thing you will find is endless blog or forum post about how tourists can get the easier than easy 30-day visa on arrival but we all know that already. Am I right about the 1-year visa extension I have mentioned, or does it involve more paperwork than I have assumed? And why is it that there is so much readily available information available about 1-year Cambodian visa extensions but nothing about the process in Laos, other than the occasional mention of Lao business visas involving a lot of paperwork? Even long-term Burmese visas are shrouded in less mystery than Lao ones, despite Myanmar only having emerged from it's long-held isolation 4 years ago.

I think there is little information online because there is simply less information online about Laos in general. Cambodia has in my estimation a much larger ex pat population. I live in Laos and when I moved to Laos the internet was not wide spread by any means. Most of the ex pats that live in my area do not go on web forums of any kind. When they ask me things about Thailand I always suggest they come here and ask or a Cambodian forum if they are asking something for around there that I don't know. They look at me like I am crazy.

The type of ex pat in Laos just seems to be less net savvy. Lao people also are just finding out about Facebook and don't tend to use the web for much more than that. Another thing about Laos is that information in person is also much harder to find. This is the case at least in the part of Laos I live in. Many times people living here also do not give out information because they don't want competition. Somebody has something nice, ask them where they bought it... many times they do not want to give up their secrets.

In contrast the Thaivisa forum is full of people who want to tell you all the info they have and where to get the best prices. Laos is a bit more secretive it seems.

[lap82]

Hope to visit the place one day at least...

[Ban Merry]

Any updates from travellers that have been in Laos recently?

[Nowisee]

My limited amount of time in Laos was wonderful.
IMO:
They drove much more sane then the nut jobs in CM
They spoke better English than CM and I had more open conversations than in thailand.

Food was good.

People were pretty laid back and cool.

Beer was cheap.

Coffee was insanely strong... I had to cut it with hot water.

Guesthouses were reasonable.
They drive on the right.

The trip down the river is always a lot of fun.

The sad part is the the way the government treats the Hmong or Hilltribe.
As an American I am ashamed at what my govt did to the people and the stupid amount of UXO.

I like going there and have no problems.... cool place.

[anotheruser]

To see and enjoy the best of Luang Prabang and Vietinenne you should have gone 15 years ago when things were half the price they are now,having said that the bulk of people have dragged themselves out of poverty and we should not deny them a better life.

One thing that stuck me while I was there 15 years ago was the fluency of the English spoken, far better than their counterparts in Thailand.

As has been said best sough dough and beer you could find anywhere and generally pleasant people.

Luang Prabang is being invaded by Chinese touriss tso if you are going pick their low season

English fluency in Laos is pretty low - as low as, if not lower than Thailand. However, I don't care as I am fluent in Thai and by extension, relatively fluent in Lao. I have noticed that in Laos, even in central Vientiane, the locals are somewhat more likely to speak to you in Lao without even knowing you can speak it, than in Thailand. This makes me feel more like "I'm one of them" because instead of shopkeepers and cashiers giving you either the silent treatment or giving you the price of something in difficult to understand English, they generally just say it in Lao, which is nice. Or maybe they just figure I know their language (which of course I do). Although generally in Thailand most of the time it's a similar story, as mentioned there are also lots of cashiers who won't say anything when a foreigner comes up to them, unless said foreigner says "Sawatdee krab" or engages them in conversation in Thai first.

Vang Vieng is being invaded by Korean tourists and they aren't any better than the Chinese. In fact, in my experience at least Chinese sleep at night whereas the Koreans go off to the pool and splash around, laughing and just not giving a crap about other hotel guests desire to get some sleep, at 2 or 3am in the morning. That was my recent experience at a hotel in Vang Vieng.

Ask a business owner who they would prefer the Chinese or Koreans. The Koreans are way more civilized to deal with. So some Koreans kept you up at a hotel one time and now they are somehow worst than the Chinese? The Koreans spend money and in large part are the reason VV is still on the map. I have noticed more Koreans in Don Det these days and i openly welcome them. I wouldn't be so keen on the Chinese tourist bus rocking up at my place.

At any rate the Koreans are a step above the backpackers of years ago. Because we all know they would refrain from making noise at the pool at night.

Laos is experiencing phenomenal growth and I am afraid in 10 years we will all be sitting around and moaning about how it used to be. Most of the towns just need a few million more cars and a few shopping malls and they will be much like your average, charmless, town in Issan. The traffic is already becoming horrendous in VTE and Pakse.

Development moves slowly but once you get the Chinese in with the construction cranes and dynamite it goes quickly. The Chinese maybe don't splash around the pool because they are busy out destroying the rivers. You can expect Big C, Makro, Mcdonalds, 7/11 etc. all very soon in Laos.

Burma will begin to outshine Laos as the backwards, slow paced, backwater that is the darling of Asia. An ex pat can now live a very similar life in VTE as he would in many mid size Thai cities. Even Pakse will give a place like Ubon a run for it's money soon. If you are happy in Ubon it wouldn't be much of a stretch to live in Pakse and it actually has more Foreign hang outs. This is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you want to only have that quintessential "real" Lao experience. In that case you are in for disappointment in the coming decade.

The restaurant scene has come up quite nicely in VTE and is light years ahead of any mid sized Thai town. Only Pattaya, Chiang Mai, Phuket and Bangkok would offer more in this regard.

There are more services available each and everyday. Things change that quickly. The trees are all gone and soon the rivers will all be dammed, Laos is coming into the modern era and isn't quite as behind as some people suspect these days. All airports are being expanded, all they have to do now is build a decent hospital or two and many people that wouldn't consider Laos before will begin to after that.

Laos has been discovered and all of the foreign money pouring in is accelerating it's demise. The forests are already among the most silent in Asia, they have literally killed everything that once lived there. It retains it's charm for now but you can see even today what lurks on the horizon.

The traffic jams are beginning to mimic those of Thailand. There is a lot of money and interest in development now that all of the jewels in neighboring countries like Thailand have been developed. Laos can skip the evolutionary steps that occurred in Thailand and move straight to the 21st century. Once the funds are in place things go very quickly. The problem is there is no vision for such rapid growth. If they let the Chinese design everything which they seem willing to do I can only shudder.

One thing I like about Laos is that it hasn't all been done yet, they don't have to go down the same route Thailand has. Although to avoid environmental catastrophe they would have to stop right now. With the right vision Laos could remain a destination for nature lovers and a cultural icon.

So I still love Laos but right now it is such a mixed bag and the vision of what they are building isn't really one that appears to be desirable. Laos is a small country and if they continue to destroy their natural wonders in a wholesale basis I am beginning to

wonder what the appeal to go there will be?

I ave done business in 4,000 Islands for 10 years, so these are just some observations of a long term ex pat wondering what the future will bring to the country and to his own business.

[MyFrenU]

[Tomtomtom69]

A more traditional culture as yet less tainted by some of the negative affectations of modernity, example: the ladies wear longer skirts with traditional patterns that seems dignified rather than faked.

The fact they knew suffering in living memory, so they lack arrogance whilst still having a laid back nature.

A foreigner can be in Laos and not assumed to be a sex tourist.

Beer Laos, not the dark version.

The bread.

It's a country where even in the capital or border towns the primary school kids will come cycling by saying "Hello!" to a foreigner in the same way one can usually only now find in the countryside of Thailand.

I used to like the "hellos" I got in rural Thailand like 15 years ago but now that most of that's gone, I'm glad. As a tourist, it might be a bit of a novelty and even feel welcoming, but as a resident (or even regular visitor) the "hellos" not only become old quite quickly, but they reinforce the "us vs. them" mentality that you will never be accepted as a local, which is kind of sad. Especially when you are trying to integrate. I mean, we wouldn't start saying "nihao" to all the ethnic Chinese people in our western countries (even in Chinatown), so in a sense, being ignored and seen as just another human being is refreshing. My own experiences are that in major Lao tourist towns and cities, no one says "hello" anymore either. Certainly not in Vientiane, Luang Prabang or Vang Vieng.

[Tomtomtom69]

To see and enjoy the best of Luang Prabang and Vietinenne you should have gone 15 years ago when things were half the price they are now,having said that the bulk of people have dragged themselves out of poverty and we should not deny them a better life.

One thing that stuck me while I was there 15 years ago was the fluency of the English spoken, far better than their counterparts in Thailand.

As has been said best sough dough and beer you could find anywhere and generally pleasant people.

Luang Prabang is being invaded by Chinese touriss tso if you are going pick their low season

English fluency in Laos is pretty low - as low as, if not lower than Thailand. However, I don't care as I am fluent in Thai and by extension, relatively fluent in Lao. I have noticed that in Laos, even in central Vientiane, the locals are somewhat more likely to speak to you in Lao without even knowing you can speak it, than in Thailand. This makes me feel more like "I'm one of them" because instead of shopkeepers and cashiers giving you either the silent treatment or giving you the price of something in difficult to understand English, they generally just say it in Lao, which is nice. Or maybe they just figure I know their language (which of course I do). Although generally in Thailand most of the time it's a similar story, as mentioned there are also lots of cashiers who won't say anything when a foreigner comes up to them, unless said foreigner says "Sawatdee krab" or engages them in conversation in Thai first.

Vang Vieng is being invaded by Korean tourists and they aren't any better than the Chinese. In fact, in my experience at least Chinese sleep at night whereas the Koreans go off to the pool and splash around, laughing and just not giving a crap about other hotel guests desire to get some sleep, at 2 or 3am in the morning. That was my recent experience at a hotel in Vang Vieng.

Ask a business owner who they would prefer the Chinese or Koreans. The Koreans are way more civilized to deal with. So some Koreans kept you up at a hotel one time and now they are somehow worst than the Chinese? The Koreans spend money and in large part are the reason VV is still on the map. I have noticed more Koreans in Don Det these days and i openly welcome them. I wouldn't be so keen on the Chinese tourist bus rocking up at my place.

At any rate the Koreans are a step above the backpackers of years ago. Because we all know they would refrain from making noise at the pool at night.

Laos is experiencing phenomenal growth and I am afraid in 10 years we will all be sitting around and moaning about how it used to be. Most of the towns just need a few million more cars and a few shopping malls and they will be much like your average, charmless, town in Issan. The traffic is already becoming horrendous in VTE and Pakse.

Development moves slowly but once you get the Chinese in with the construction cranes and dynamite it goes quickly. The Chinese maybe don't splash around the pool because they are busy out destroying the rivers. You can expect Big C, Makro, Mcdonalds, 7/11 etc. all very soon in Laos.

Burma will begin to outshine Laos as the backwards, slow paced, backwater that is the darling of Asia. An ex pat can now live a very similar life in VTE as he would in many mid size Thai cities. Even Pakse will give a place like Ubon a run for it's money soon. If you are happy in Ubon it wouldn't be much of a stretch to live in Pakse and it actually has more Foreign hang outs. This is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you want to only have that quintessential "real" Lao experience. In that case you are in for disappointment in the coming decade.

The restaurant scene has come up quite nicely in VTE and is light years ahead of any mid sized Thai town. Only Pattaya, Chiang Mai, Phuket and Bangkok would offer more in this regard.

There are more services available each and everyday. Things change that quickly. The trees are all gone and soon the rivers will all be dammed, Laos is coming into the modern era and isn't quite as behind as some people suspect these days. All airports are being expanded, all they have to do now is build a decent hospital or two and many people that wouldn't consider Laos before will begin to after that.

Laos has been discovered and all of the foreign money pouring in is accelerating it's demise. The forests are already among the most silent in Asia, they have literally killed everything that once lived there. It retains it's charm for now but you can see even today what lurks on the horizon.

The traffic jams are beginning to mimic those of Thailand. There is a lot of money and interest in development now that all of the jewels in neighboring countries like Thailand have been developed. Laos can skip the evolutionary steps that occurred in Thailand and move straight to the 21st century. Once the funds are in place things go very quickly. The problem is there is no vision for such rapid growth. If they let the Chinese design everything which they seem willing to do I can only shudder.

One thing I like about Laos is that it hasn't all been done yet, they don't have to go down the same route Thailand has. Although to avoid environmental catastrophe they would have to stop right now. With the right vision Laos could remain a destination for nature lovers and a cultural icon.

So I still love Laos but right now it is such a mixed bag and the vision of what they are building isn't really one that appears to be desirable. Laos is a small country and if they continue to destroy their natural wonders in a wholesale basis I am beginning to

wonder what the appeal to go there will be?

I ave done business in 4,000 Islands for 10 years, so these are just some observations of a long term ex pat wondering what the future will bring to the country and to his own business.

Great post.

Look I definitely agree with you that Koreans are a much preferred demographic compared to the Chinese. However, I just wanted to point out my experiences (BTW I have lived in China and therefore know Chinese habits quite well - I'm far less familiar with Koreans due to relative lack of exposure).

While I happened to stay in a dump of a hotel (it was actually a newish but rather unknown hotel) full of Korean tourists, with only maybe one Chinese family this obviously doesn't reflect the fact that on the whole, Koreans are pretty good guests and I certainly agree that they are a step up on the hordes of 19-year old gappacker tourists that were the mainstay of the Vang Vieng tourist economy up until 2012 or so. The only difference is these backpackers wouldn't have had the requisite US$40-50 to shell out on a room at the type of hotel I stayed at, but if they did, you are right, there probably would have been dozens of them splashing in the pool at night, not merely one couple like in my case.

However, the behavior of tourists is a minor point when talking about Laos. Like you, I am very much concerned with the state of development in that country. I used to travel to Laos a lot on business, was driving my car across the border and indeed, Vientiane traffic can be quite bad these days. The roads are in a shocking state, poorly designed (do they not know how to design a proper U-turn bay, it's just a break in the road!), and much too narrow for the volume of traffic these days. Road signs and lighting at night is almost non-existent outside of the tourist areas.

Despite all the rhetoric regarding the opening of new shopping malls, fast food chains etc. I suspect the Lao won't stop going to Udon Thani for a while yet. When I first heard about the Chinese built Vientiane center, I expected a flashy style mall to rival Udon's Central Plaza, which itself is nothing special - malls in Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Pattaya and Phuket are far grander. However, in a way I was not surprised to find that Vientiane center is a poor excuse for a shopping mall. Not only is it tiny, but it only has a couple of stores worth mentioning, an OK food court but half of the mall is still vacant and looking for tenants and it certainly isn't close to being a substitute for what's over in Udon. I also heard a Vietnamese mall project was cancelled. However, things will probably change in the next 10-15 years, just that Vientiane is still too small to be considered an attractive place for such large investments. It took the Vietnamese a long time to catch up to Thailand and only now does one find similar (though still smaller) malls in Ho Chi Minh as one can find in Bangkok. Vientiane reminds me of the situation in Ho Chi Minh back in the early 2000s - a couple of tiny malls with nothing much of interest. However, that could change in the not too distant future as you say.

I know a lot of expats in Vientiane and like they, I do hope the Lao come to their senses and not allow the Chinese to wholeheartedly wreck their country just to make a quick buck. They are going to regret it sooner rather than later if the current trend continues. Having said that, I would definitely support the development of a proper, basic road infrastructure, utilities and other services. The abysmal state of Lao roads (which are like 40 years behind Thai standards) urgently need to be fixed - Lao does not need a stupid high speed rail link that no one can afford. It needs proper, international standard roads and highways.

[Tomtomtom69]

Ok. You guys have convinced me.

Cruisemonkey. Do you have any route maps?

I am up that way in early December and prefer minimal dirt and mud but love mountainous twisted ribbons of bitumen.

Are there any issues taking a Thai registered bike into Laos?

There is a ride through central Laos (Khammouane Province to be exact) called "The Loop" it is about 400 KM i believe and it goes past one of the biggest caves in Southeast Asia (Khonglor cave). It is getting bigger and bigger with the lonely planet group year after year, so do it soon. I have attempted to do it twice but have ended up getting stranded on my own will (it was too much fun) at the "Sabaidee Guesthouse" in Thalang village (about 120 KM into the loop if starting out going East from Thakhek) . Had so much fun, brought my brother the second time. I will go back in early September for my third attempt at it

as for bringing in a bike, I have heard different stories, I cannot confirm either way. If you do end up doing this trip and want some more first hand information feel free to PM me, I really enjoyed the parts I did, so it would be fun to help someone else out.

Bruzzzzz did you end up taking your bike into Laos?

It's straightforward at most crossings, including the 1st friendship bridge at Nong Khai, as long as it's at least 250cc capacity.

[Tomtomtom69]

Things I like:

1. The beer (much better than Thai beer)
2. The coffee (slightly better than Thai coffee)
3. The bread (there is no such thing as Thai bread)
4. The nature is probably less spoiled than in Thailand.
5. Cheap prices (unlike Thailand)

I haven't spent too much time there so can't mention much more I like than that.

Things I dislike:

1. I have been scammed there more than any other place in Asia ...even by my own hotel and even the immigration).
2. The lack of massage. And I find the massage parlors they do have very uncomfortable, since there are usually several underage girls working there. Something which you don't notice in Thailand in most massage parlors all year round.
3. Being offered opium in the street (often).
4. Very little to do..gets a bit boring
5. And I'm sorry, but I never noticed any exceptional friendliness. More in Thailand, Vietnam or Indonesia from my experience.

Sorry if my balanced post upsets anyone.

One thing I didn't mention in my previous reply from last year.

Things I dislike in Laos:

5. expensive prices (nearly everything is pricier in Laos compared to Thailand, especially in Vientiane. Food is more expensive, as is accommodation of a comparable standard to Thailand will cost you two or three times more in Vientiane compared to Thailand). If you're driving, fuel (both petrol (gasoline) and diesel are more expensive (around 10% more than in Thailand) and LPG is virtually unavailable (except around Vientiane). Northern Laos is quite cheap though. Beer and tobacco is cheaper than in Thailand, but this only applies to Beer Lao. Any imported beer costs at least as much if not more. Wine is no cheaper in Laos than in Thailand and the selection is poorer. I was surprised by this at first, but if you're looking for cheap wine you'll be disappointed. The cheapest wine I could find in Laos was about 400 Baht a bottle, whereas in Tesco Lotus in Thailand you can easily pick up a bottle of the cheapest imported Aussie wine for 219 Baht.

Good quality French cuisine (think Le Vendome) is indeed much cheaper than in Thailand where French food is only available in tourist towns and considered to be a bit of a novelty.

[Tomtomtom69]

Such a pity Laos doesn't have a retired ( O-A ) visa like Thailand

There are several unofficial ways to retire in Laos, each of which carries its own set of advantages and disadvantages. The first, most popular, and undoubtedly quickest method for remaining in Laos for the long term is to make use of successive thirty-day tourism visas, each extended to ninety days of validity from inside Laos.

These visas can be applied for back to back as you leave and return to Laos, with no formal limit on quantity of validity of the tourism visas. Thousands of foreigners in Laos reside in the country legally using this method, and an informal ‘visa run’ bus and tour industry has emerged for the sole purpose of serving foreign expatriates.

When I was in Vientiane just last week I again noticed the same signs "Mr. so and so, 1-year visa extension". I presume that like in Cambodia, you pay a few hundred dollars, hand in your passport and a photo and get it back a few days later with a 1-year visa extension no other paper work required?

However, why is it that there is almost absolutely no information about long-term Lao visas online? The only thing you will find is endless blog or forum post about how tourists can get the easier than easy 30-day visa on arrival but we all know that already. Am I right about the 1-year visa extension I have mentioned, or does it involve more paperwork than I have assumed? And why is it that there is so much readily available information available about 1-year Cambodian visa extensions but nothing about the process in Laos, other than the occasional mention of Lao business visas involving a lot of paperwork? Even long-term Burmese visas are shrouded in less mystery than Lao ones, despite Myanmar only having emerged from it's long-held isolation 4 years ago.

You are correct that you only need money and hand in your passport and a photo.However this only applies if you already have an existing 1-year business visa.

If you're 60 years old, you can enter the country for 30 days. Once finished you then need to go the immigration office and you can another 30 days extension for free. And so forth after this. All up you can stay for 90days for the cost of 30. You will have to leave the country for 1 month after this and then start the process again. This started at the beginning of this year but no one really knows. An Irish friend of mind has been doing this of late

An elderly British chap I stayed with in Vientiane in 2014 told me he was getting a 30 day visa, extending it up to 90 days (didn't know this was free) then crossing over to Nong Khai for a few hours or even an immediate turn around then back into Vientiane; he had been doing this for a number of years. Although he is married to a Lao wife, he preferred doing it this way.

Now he has to leave the country for a month?

Is it possible to get a 1-year business extension if you're on a tourist visa on arrival with no documents, just pay the money like Cambodia? Or is it a more involved process?

[Ban Merry]

Is it possible to get a 1-year business extension if you're on a tourist visa on arrival with no documents, just pay the money like Cambodia? Or is it a more involved process?

No, not possible unless you find a job or a fixer that usually costs around 600usd for the year. New Government now and they are starting to clamp down. All documents need to be intact.

Now he has to leave the country for a month?

I was told that if you're 65 or over you can get the extra 60 days for free but then have to leave for 1 month. If you just pay all the time and don't get the 60 free days then you don't have to leave.

[anotheruser]

To see and enjoy the best of Luang Prabang and Vietinenne you should have gone 15 years ago when things were half the price they are now,having said that the bulk of people have dragged themselves out of poverty and we should not deny them a better life.

One thing that stuck me while I was there 15 years ago was the fluency of the English spoken, far better than their counterparts in Thailand.

As has been said best sough dough and beer you could find anywhere and generally pleasant people.

Luang Prabang is being invaded by Chinese touriss tso if you are going pick their low season

English fluency in Laos is pretty low - as low as, if not lower than Thailand. However, I don't care as I am fluent in Thai and by extension, relatively fluent in Lao. I have noticed that in Laos, even in central Vientiane, the locals are somewhat more likely to speak to you in Lao without even knowing you can speak it, than in Thailand. This makes me feel more like "I'm one of them" because instead of shopkeepers and cashiers giving you either the silent treatment or giving you the price of something in difficult to understand English, they generally just say it in Lao, which is nice. Or maybe they just figure I know their language (which of course I do). Although generally in Thailand most of the time it's a similar story, as mentioned there are also lots of cashiers who won't say anything when a foreigner comes up to them, unless said foreigner says "Sawatdee krab" or engages them in conversation in Thai first.

Vang Vieng is being invaded by Korean tourists and they aren't any better than the Chinese. In fact, in my experience at least Chinese sleep at night whereas the Koreans go off to the pool and splash around, laughing and just not giving a crap about other hotel guests desire to get some sleep, at 2 or 3am in the morning. That was my recent experience at a hotel in Vang Vieng.

Ask a business owner who they would prefer the Chinese or Koreans. The Koreans are way more civilized to deal with. So some Koreans kept you up at a hotel one time and now they are somehow worst than the Chinese? The Koreans spend money and in large part are the reason VV is still on the map. I have noticed more Koreans in Don Det these days and i openly welcome them. I wouldn't be so keen on the Chinese tourist bus rocking up at my place.

At any rate the Koreans are a step above the backpackers of years ago. Because we all know they would refrain from making noise at the pool at night.

Laos is experiencing phenomenal growth and I am afraid in 10 years we will all be sitting around and moaning about how it used to be. Most of the towns just need a few million more cars and a few shopping malls and they will be much like your average, charmless, town in Issan. The traffic is already becoming horrendous in VTE and Pakse.

Development moves slowly but once you get the Chinese in with the construction cranes and dynamite it goes quickly. The Chinese maybe don't splash around the pool because they are busy out destroying the rivers. You can expect Big C, Makro, Mcdonalds, 7/11 etc. all very soon in Laos.

Burma will begin to outshine Laos as the backwards, slow paced, backwater that is the darling of Asia. An ex pat can now live a very similar life in VTE as he would in many mid size Thai cities. Even Pakse will give a place like Ubon a run for it's money soon. If you are happy in Ubon it wouldn't be much of a stretch to live in Pakse and it actually has more Foreign hang outs. This is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you want to only have that quintessential "real" Lao experience. In that case you are in for disappointment in the coming decade.

The restaurant scene has come up quite nicely in VTE and is light years ahead of any mid sized Thai town. Only Pattaya, Chiang Mai, Phuket and Bangkok would offer more in this regard.

There are more services available each and everyday. Things change that quickly. The trees are all gone and soon the rivers will all be dammed, Laos is coming into the modern era and isn't quite as behind as some people suspect these days. All airports are being expanded, all they have to do now is build a decent hospital or two and many people that wouldn't consider Laos before will begin to after that.

Laos has been discovered and all of the foreign money pouring in is accelerating it's demise. The forests are already among the most silent in Asia, they have literally killed everything that once lived there. It retains it's charm for now but you can see even today what lurks on the horizon.

The traffic jams are beginning to mimic those of Thailand. There is a lot of money and interest in development now that all of the jewels in neighboring countries like Thailand have been developed. Laos can skip the evolutionary steps that occurred in Thailand and move straight to the 21st century. Once the funds are in place things go very quickly. The problem is there is no vision for such rapid growth. If they let the Chinese design everything which they seem willing to do I can only shudder.

One thing I like about Laos is that it hasn't all been done yet, they don't have to go down the same route Thailand has. Although to avoid environmental catastrophe they would have to stop right now. With the right vision Laos could remain a destination for nature lovers and a cultural icon.

So I still love Laos but right now it is such a mixed bag and the vision of what they are building isn't really one that appears to be desirable. Laos is a small country and if they continue to destroy their natural wonders in a wholesale basis I am beginning to

wonder what the appeal to go there will be?

I ave done business in 4,000 Islands for 10 years, so these are just some observations of a long term ex pat wondering what the future will bring to the country and to his own business.

Great post.

Look I definitely agree with you that Koreans are a much preferred demographic compared to the Chinese. However, I just wanted to point out my experiences (BTW I have lived in China and therefore know Chinese habits quite well - I'm far less familiar with Koreans due to relative lack of exposure).

While I happened to stay in a dump of a hotel (it was actually a newish but rather unknown hotel) full of Korean tourists, with only maybe one Chinese family this obviously doesn't reflect the fact that on the whole, Koreans are pretty good guests and I certainly agree that they are a step up on the hordes of 19-year old gappacker tourists that were the mainstay of the Vang Vieng tourist economy up until 2012 or so. The only difference is these backpackers wouldn't have had the requisite US$40-50 to shell out on a room at the type of hotel I stayed at, but if they did, you are right, there probably would have been dozens of them splashing in the pool at night, not merely one couple like in my case.

However, the behavior of tourists is a minor point when talking about Laos. Like you, I am very much concerned with the state of development in that country. I used to travel to Laos a lot on business, was driving my car across the border and indeed, Vientiane traffic can be quite bad these days. The roads are in a shocking state, poorly designed (do they not know how to design a proper U-turn bay, it's just a break in the road!), and much too narrow for the volume of traffic these days. Road signs and lighting at night is almost non-existent outside of the tourist areas.

Despite all the rhetoric regarding the opening of new shopping malls, fast food chains etc. I suspect the Lao won't stop going to Udon Thani for a while yet. When I first heard about the Chinese built Vientiane center, I expected a flashy style mall to rival Udon's Central Plaza, which itself is nothing special - malls in Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Pattaya and Phuket are far grander. However, in a way I was not surprised to find that Vientiane center is a poor excuse for a shopping mall. Not only is it tiny, but it only has a couple of stores worth mentioning, an OK food court but half of the mall is still vacant and looking for tenants and it certainly isn't close to being a substitute for what's over in Udon. I also heard a Vietnamese mall project was cancelled. However, things will probably change in the next 10-15 years, just that Vientiane is still too small to be considered an attractive place for such large investments. It took the Vietnamese a long time to catch up to Thailand and only now does one find similar (though still smaller) malls in Ho Chi Minh as one can find in Bangkok. Vientiane reminds me of the situation in Ho Chi Minh back in the early 2000s - a couple of tiny malls with nothing much of interest. However, that could change in the not too distant future as you say.

I know a lot of expats in Vientiane and like they, I do hope the Lao come to their senses and not allow the Chinese to wholeheartedly wreck their country just to make a quick buck. They are going to regret it sooner rather than later if the current trend continues. Having said that, I would definitely support the development of a proper, basic road infrastructure, utilities and other services. The abysmal state of Lao roads (which are like 40 years behind Thai standards) urgently need to be fixed - Lao does not need a stupid high speed rail link that no one can afford. It needs proper, international standard roads and highways.

I definitely agree with you about the environmental destruction being worrisome. As you I am not worried about the 7/11, Big C etc. Those don't really hurt anything but a few select backpackers aesthetic sense of his own self righteousness.

The main threat right now is the traffic. This is hard to fix now given the roads. Too many cars make just about any place intolerable and asians seem to have an endless tolerance for traffic and the dirt and danger it causes. They should make the river road and everything in between Samsenthai road pedestrian only with exceptions for buses, taxis and delivery trucks with permission. You would have a 100% more liveable city center in that case. I feel they should also do this in Bangkok on places like Sukhumvit. I don't think most foreigners would oppose this but guess who doesn't ever like to walk?

It's a real shame they have the chance to avoid some of the pitfalls Thailand has fallen to but don't seem to even notice there is a problem coming.

[anotheruser]

Things I like:

1. The beer (much better than Thai beer)
2. The coffee (slightly better than Thai coffee)
3. The bread (there is no such thing as Thai bread)
4. The nature is probably less spoiled than in Thailand.
5. Cheap prices (unlike Thailand)

I haven't spent too much time there so can't mention much more I like than that.

Things I dislike:

1. I have been scammed there more than any other place in Asia ...even by my own hotel and even the immigration).
2. The lack of massage. And I find the massage parlors they do have very uncomfortable, since there are usually several underage girls working there. Something which you don't notice in Thailand in most massage parlors all year round.
3. Being offered opium in the street (often).
4. Very little to do..gets a bit boring
5. And I'm sorry, but I never noticed any exceptional friendliness. More in Thailand, Vietnam or Indonesia from my experience.

Sorry if my balanced post upsets anyone.

One thing I didn't mention in my previous reply from last year.

Things I dislike in Laos:

5. expensive prices (nearly everything is pricier in Laos compared to Thailand, especially in Vientiane. Food is more expensive, as is accommodation of a comparable standard to Thailand will cost you two or three times more in Vientiane compared to Thailand). If you're driving, fuel (both petrol (gasoline) and diesel are more expensive (around 10% more than in Thailand) and LPG is virtually unavailable (except around Vientiane). Northern Laos is quite cheap though. Beer and tobacco is cheaper than in Thailand, but this only applies to Beer Lao. Any imported beer costs at least as much if not more. Wine is no cheaper in Laos than in Thailand and the selection is poorer. I was surprised by this at first, but if you're looking for cheap wine you'll be disappointed. The cheapest wine I could find in Laos was about 400 Baht a bottle, whereas in Tesco Lotus in Thailand you can easily pick up a bottle of the cheapest imported Aussie wine for 219 Baht.

Good quality French cuisine (think Le Vendome) is indeed much cheaper than in Thailand where French food is only available in tourist towns and considered to be a bit of a novelty.

Laos is more expensive than Thailand but it can't really be compared on that level. You can buy a 200 Baht shirt in Thailand or a 200,000 Baht shirt at a Prada shop. In Laos there is little to consume. It is possible to live cheaper in Thailand on a bare bones budget eating only street food, but I think for anybody doing mid range Laos will cost less per day. I bleed money in Thailand. Even on the tighest budget the difference between 60 Baht noodles in Thailand and 20,000 Kip noodles on the street isn't going to add up much in a day. On the high end of the spectrum we all know which would be more.

Accommodation 2 to 3 times higher? Where do you think this is? You can really stay in Lao on the same budget as in Thailand but I will admit at the very top things are very expensive or they won't be as luxurious as Thailand. Your 1,000 Baht room probably won't have room service and a pool. If you are slumming it again there will be very little difference in price or conditions. You could probably spend less on Khao San but the 6 bedroom imperial pool villa suite in Phuket would dwarf even the most expensive rooms in Laos. Laos doesn't have the extreme top or bottom end of the spectrum. The $3 more on a $30 to $35 room will be offset if you drink two large Beer Lao.

Western food i think is about the same in either place. At the top end they will probably be closer in cost but I can probably eat at Pimenton or the like cheaper than Le Normandie in Bangkok. Obviously that is apples and oranges but what are we comparing? A sputnik burger with fries would be around 50,000 Kip and a whopper set would be around 269 in Thailand.

I would find it pretty hard to spend more than $200 a day in Vientiane and that is a very comfortable stay. If I stay in Sukhumvit which would be the best place to compare to VTE I would be going to the ATM the same night. I guess what i am saying is that there is sort of a ceiling on spending in Laos where as in Thailand the sky is the limit. So in reality it would be much cheaper for me to live in central VTE than where I live now in central Bangkok. Also don't forget to add the 7% tax to everything you buy in Thailand, which is most likely coming soon to Laos. So add this into the price on the sign and what comes to your bill.

[anotheruser]

Is it possible to get a 1-year business extension if you're on a tourist visa on arrival with no documents, just pay the money like Cambodia? Or is it a more involved process?

No, not possible unless you find a job or a fixer that usually costs around 600usd for the year. New Government now and they are starting to clamp down. All documents need to be intact.

Now he has to leave the country for a month?

I was told that if you're 65 or over you can get the extra 60 days for free but then have to leave for 1 month. If you just pay all the time and don't get the 60 free days then you don't have to leave.

No, he doesn't have to leave the country for a month. You can do back to back tourist visas indefinitely if you aren't working or run a business. I stayed in Laos for around 5 years but my business became too established and visible so they gave me a fine and told me to go get a visa. The fine was a whopping 500,000 Kip. They just needed a little money for a wedding it was all friendly and understood.

Not sure what the deal was there with the 30 and 60 day extension but if you enter Laos on a 30 day visa and leave every month there is no period of time you must leave the country.

Impossible to get a business visa without documents of who you work for or with. You can not just buy one like in Cambodia.

Sorry for the multiple posts but there was too many quoted texts and it was easier to answer the three posts separately.

[Tomtomtom69]

Ask a business owner who they would prefer the Chinese or Koreans. The Koreans are way more civilized to deal with. So some Koreans kept you up at a hotel one time and now they are somehow worst than the Chinese? The Koreans spend money and in large part are the reason VV is still on the map. I have noticed more Koreans in Don Det these days and i openly welcome them. I wouldn't be so keen on the Chinese tourist bus rocking up at my place.

At any rate the Koreans are a step above the backpackers of years ago. Because we all know they would refrain from making noise at the pool at night.

Laos is experiencing phenomenal growth and I am afraid in 10 years we will all be sitting around and moaning about how it used to be. Most of the towns just need a few million more cars and a few shopping malls and they will be much like your average, charmless, town in Issan. The traffic is already becoming horrendous in VTE and Pakse.

Development moves slowly but once you get the Chinese in with the construction cranes and dynamite it goes quickly. The Chinese maybe don't splash around the pool because they are busy out destroying the rivers. You can expect Big C, Makro, Mcdonalds, 7/11 etc. all very soon in Laos.

Burma will begin to outshine Laos as the backwards, slow paced, backwater that is the darling of Asia. An ex pat can now live a very similar life in VTE as he would in many mid size Thai cities. Even Pakse will give a place like Ubon a run for it's money soon. If you are happy in Ubon it wouldn't be much of a stretch to live in Pakse and it actually has more Foreign hang outs. This is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you want to only have that quintessential "real" Lao experience. In that case you are in for disappointment in the coming decade.

The restaurant scene has come up quite nicely in VTE and is light years ahead of any mid sized Thai town. Only Pattaya, Chiang Mai, Phuket and Bangkok would offer more in this regard.

There are more services available each and everyday. Things change that quickly. The trees are all gone and soon the rivers will all be dammed, Laos is coming into the modern era and isn't quite as behind as some people suspect these days. All airports are being expanded, all they have to do now is build a decent hospital or two and many people that wouldn't consider Laos before will begin to after that.

Laos has been discovered and all of the foreign money pouring in is accelerating it's demise. The forests are already among the most silent in Asia, they have literally killed everything that once lived there. It retains it's charm for now but you can see even today what lurks on the horizon.

The traffic jams are beginning to mimic those of Thailand. There is a lot of money and interest in development now that all of the jewels in neighboring countries like Thailand have been developed. Laos can skip the evolutionary steps that occurred in Thailand and move straight to the 21st century. Once the funds are in place things go very quickly. The problem is there is no vision for such rapid growth. If they let the Chinese design everything which they seem willing to do I can only shudder.

One thing I like about Laos is that it hasn't all been done yet, they don't have to go down the same route Thailand has. Although to avoid environmental catastrophe they would have to stop right now. With the right vision Laos could remain a destination for nature lovers and a cultural icon.

So I still love Laos but right now it is such a mixed bag and the vision of what they are building isn't really one that appears to be desirable. Laos is a small country and if they continue to destroy their natural wonders in a wholesale basis I am beginning to

wonder what the appeal to go there will be?

I ave done business in 4,000 Islands for 10 years, so these are just some observations of a long term ex pat wondering what the future will bring to the country and to his own business.

Great post.

Look I definitely agree with you that Koreans are a much preferred demographic compared to the Chinese. However, I just wanted to point out my experiences (BTW I have lived in China and therefore know Chinese habits quite well - I'm far less familiar with Koreans due to relative lack of exposure).

While I happened to stay in a dump of a hotel (it was actually a newish but rather unknown hotel) full of Korean tourists, with only maybe one Chinese family this obviously doesn't reflect the fact that on the whole, Koreans are pretty good guests and I certainly agree that they are a step up on the hordes of 19-year old gappacker tourists that were the mainstay of the Vang Vieng tourist economy up until 2012 or so. The only difference is these backpackers wouldn't have had the requisite US$40-50 to shell out on a room at the type of hotel I stayed at, but if they did, you are right, there probably would have been dozens of them splashing in the pool at night, not merely one couple like in my case.

However, the behavior of tourists is a minor point when talking about Laos. Like you, I am very much concerned with the state of development in that country. I used to travel to Laos a lot on business, was driving my car across the border and indeed, Vientiane traffic can be quite bad these days. The roads are in a shocking state, poorly designed (do they not know how to design a proper U-turn bay, it's just a break in the road!), and much too narrow for the volume of traffic these days. Road signs and lighting at night is almost non-existent outside of the tourist areas.

Despite all the rhetoric regarding the opening of new shopping malls, fast food chains etc. I suspect the Lao won't stop going to Udon Thani for a while yet. When I first heard about the Chinese built Vientiane center, I expected a flashy style mall to rival Udon's Central Plaza, which itself is nothing special - malls in Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Pattaya and Phuket are far grander. However, in a way I was not surprised to find that Vientiane center is a poor excuse for a shopping mall. Not only is it tiny, but it only has a couple of stores worth mentioning, an OK food court but half of the mall is still vacant and looking for tenants and it certainly isn't close to being a substitute for what's over in Udon. I also heard a Vietnamese mall project was cancelled. However, things will probably change in the next 10-15 years, just that Vientiane is still too small to be considered an attractive place for such large investments. It took the Vietnamese a long time to catch up to Thailand and only now does one find similar (though still smaller) malls in Ho Chi Minh as one can find in Bangkok. Vientiane reminds me of the situation in Ho Chi Minh back in the early 2000s - a couple of tiny malls with nothing much of interest. However, that could change in the not too distant future as you say.

I know a lot of expats in Vientiane and like they, I do hope the Lao come to their senses and not allow the Chinese to wholeheartedly wreck their country just to make a quick buck. They are going to regret it sooner rather than later if the current trend continues. Having said that, I would definitely support the development of a proper, basic road infrastructure, utilities and other services. The abysmal state of Lao roads (which are like 40 years behind Thai standards) urgently need to be fixed - Lao does not need a stupid high speed rail link that no one can afford. It needs proper, international standard roads and highways.

I definitely agree with you about the environmental destruction being worrisome. As you I am not worried about the 7/11, Big C etc. Those don't really hurt anything but a few select backpackers aesthetic sense of his own self righteousness.

The main threat right now is the traffic. This is hard to fix now given the roads. Too many cars make just about any place intolerable and asians seem to have an endless tolerance for traffic and the dirt and danger it causes. They should make the river road and everything in between Samsenthai road pedestrian only with exceptions for buses, taxis and delivery trucks with permission. You would have a 100% more liveable city center in that case. I feel they should also do this in Bangkok on places like Sukhumvit. I don't think most foreigners would oppose this but guess who doesn't ever like to walk?

It's a real shame they have the chance to avoid some of the pitfalls Thailand has fallen to but don't seem to even notice there is a problem coming.

True. Backpackers can still feel self-righteous in other places including world heritage listed Luang Prabang, or Vang Vieng or smaller towns elsewhere in the country. Most of the development and foreign investment takes place in Vientiane because that's by far the largest Lao city where you have most of the consumption. It's never been much more than a transit town for tourists anyway and most people I know who've been there keep repeating the same old "it's the most boring capital city in the world".

By the way, Ho Chi Minh City just managed to do exactly that - they opened a new pedestrian district in the centre of town, no more cars allowed. Last time I was in Saigon was in December 2014, while this district was under construction. Now it's finished. Perhaps the Lao government might follow suit (or not) but the closing of the Korean built road next to the river (Chou Anouvong?) at night is one step in the right direction, though with nothing on that road it's not attractive, yes Samsenthai and Settathilat should be closed to traffic.

I reckon that Bangkok or Pattaya or somewhere else in Thailand might be first though, Laos is still too obsessed with buying cars to show off, even though most roads don't allow you to drive more than 40km/h so why bother with a Porsche Boxster or a Lamborghini? Face, of course. Personally I feel like I'm better than those rich snobs driving my top of the line 4x4 pickup, at least my vehicle can handle bad roads, while they would crush their bumpers or blow out a tyre instead. Not that they really drive outside of town much though - it's much more about spending $250,000 or whatever to drive 2km to a shopping mall for lunch with their girlfriends to show off, than anything else.

[Tomtomtom69]

Is it possible to get a 1-year business extension if you're on a tourist visa on arrival with no documents, just pay the money like Cambodia? Or is it a more involved process?

No, not possible unless you find a job or a fixer that usually costs around 600usd for the year. New Government now and they are starting to clamp down. All documents need to be intact.

Now he has to leave the country for a month?

I was told that if you're 65 or over you can get the extra 60 days for free but then have to leave for 1 month. If you just pay all the time and don't get the 60 free days then you don't have to leave.

No, he doesn't have to leave the country for a month. You can do back to back tourist visas indefinitely if you aren't working or run a business. I stayed in Laos for around 5 years but my business became too established and visible so they gave me a fine and told me to go get a visa. The fine was a whopping 500,000 Kip. They just needed a little money for a wedding it was all friendly and understood.

Not sure what the deal was there with the 30 and 60 day extension but if you enter Laos on a 30 day visa and leave every month there is no period of time you must leave the country.

Impossible to get a business visa without documents of who you work for or with. You can not just buy one like in Cambodia.

Sorry for the multiple posts but there was too many quoted texts and it was easier to answer the three posts separately.

So no "fixer" you could pay who could make up some fake documents? Sure some expats wouldn't mind spending a few hundred $ to live in Laos if it meant avoiding visa extensions every month.

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

Is it possible to get a 1-year business extension if you're on a tourist visa on arrival with no documents, just pay the money like Cambodia? Or is it a more involved process?

No, not possible unless you find a job or a fixer that usually costs around 600usd for the year. New Government now and they are starting to clamp down. All documents need to be intact.

Now he has to leave the country for a month?

I was told that if you're 65 or over you can get the extra 60 days for free but then have to leave for 1 month. If you just pay all the time and don't get the 60 free days then you don't have to leave.

No, he doesn't have to leave the country for a month. You can do back to back tourist visas indefinitely if you aren't working or run a business. I stayed in Laos for around 5 years but my business became too established and visible so they gave me a fine and told me to go get a visa. The fine was a whopping 500,000 Kip. They just needed a little money for a wedding it was all friendly and understood.

Not sure what the deal was there with the 30 and 60 day extension but if you enter Laos on a 30 day visa and leave every month there is no period of time you must leave the country.

Impossible to get a business visa without documents of who you work for or with. You can not just buy one like in Cambodia.

Sorry for the multiple posts but there was too many quoted texts and it was easier to answer the three posts separately.

So no "fixer" you could pay who could make up some fake documents? Sure some expats wouldn't mind spending a few hundred $ to live in Laos if it meant avoiding visa extensions every month.

Would definitely like to know about this. For comparison in Vietnam, a "fixer special" or backdoor 1-year business visa is running $550US to $650 US, according to reports on VN expat pages.

[anotheruser]

Laos has less options for visas than Thailand, there is no retirement visa. You can either stay and do the visa runs or get a business visa. There are talks of permanent residence here and there but I have no idea about this and have never met anybody with PR. This would also be beyond the scope of this conversation if you have never had a business visa even. You won't get a visa for getting married either.

There is a stay visa for spouses of those that are working. The simplest and cheapest way to stay in Laos if you are not working is to just border hop. They don't care about this way of staying. The trips to Thailand once a month are a good chance to stock up on supplies you can't get inside Laos.

Is there any reason you want a business visa other than just to avoid doing visa runs? A business visa simply means you work for a Lao person's company and limits you to that particular province and job. Once you have a business visa it isn't like you can just go where ever you want and open up shop on your own. If you get caught working anywhere else you will be fined.

So although the options are more limited it is dead simple to live in Laos at the moment with no hassle at all. Come on a tourist visa and look around, if you do get involved with something and actually work then look at getting your business visa.

[MyFrenU]

Laos has less options for visas than Thailand, there is no retirement visa. You can either stay and do the visa runs or get a business visa. There are talks of permanent residence here and there but I have no idea about this and have never met anybody with PR. This would also be beyond the scope of this conversation if you have never had a business visa even. You won't get a visa for getting married either.

There is a stay visa for spouses of those that are working. The simplest and cheapest way to stay in Laos if you are not working is to just border hop. They don't care about this way of staying. The trips to Thailand once a month are a good chance to stock up on supplies you can't get inside Laos.

Is there any reason you want a business visa other than just to avoid doing visa runs? A business visa simply means you work for a Lao person's company and limits you to that particular province and job. Once you have a business visa it isn't like you can just go where ever you want and open up shop on your own. If you get caught working anywhere else you will be fined.

So although the options are more limited it is dead simple to live in Laos at the moment with no hassle at all. Come on a tourist visa and look around, if you do get involved with something and actually work then look at getting your business visa.

So you can extend a one month tourist visa for two months then you said earlier in the thread,is that correct and if so how much for each extension?

Or is leaving Laos every month cheaper then?I thought Thailand was a pain leaving every three months so every month!

[anotheruser]

The extensions are $2 per day so more expensive than the one months at the border. Although with the trip to the border maybe little difference. Depending on where you live leaving Laos every month isn't that difficult. As I said most people doing this are going to spend the afternoon or a night at the border and go shopping as the selection of goods in Laos is very limited and can be more expensive.

Usually in my experience only tourists wishing to stay a bit longer used extensions where as all my friends and others living in Laos went to the border for the one month tourist visa.

I am not an expert on extensions but I believe you can extend two times and after that you must go to the border and then come in under a new tourist visa. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong.

Most likely you will live somewhere close to a border or with access to an airport like Vientiane, Luang Prabang, Savannakhet, Tha Kek, Pakse, 4,000 islands. So a visa run isn't difficult to do. It would be unusual for a foreigner to move somewhere way out in the sticks with out being married or having some sort of business they do.

[MyFrenU]

The extensions are $2 per day so more expensive than the one months at the border. Although with the trip to the border maybe little difference. Depending on where you live leaving Laos every month isn't that difficult. As I said most people doing this are going to spend the afternoon or a night at the border and go shopping as the selection of goods in Laos is very limited and can be more expensive.

Usually in my experience only tourists wishing to stay a bit longer used extensions where as all my friends and others living in Laos went to the border for the one month tourist visa.

I am not an expert on extensions but I believe you can extend two times and after that you must go to the border and then come in under a new tourist visa. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong.

Most likely you will live somewhere close to a border or with access to an airport like Vientiane, Luang Prabang, Savannakhet, Tha Kek, Pakse, 4,000 islands. So a visa run isn't difficult to do. It would be unusual for a foreigner to move somewhere way out in the sticks with out being married or having some sort of business they do.

It's true that it's a leisurely hours drive tops from Vientiane to Nong Khai and Savannakhet to the Thai border at Mukdahan is probably less than that.The only drawback I can see is you're gonna burn through a 10-year passport in 2-3 years at the most with all the visas and stamps!

[Tomtomtom69]

The extensions are $2 per day so more expensive than the one months at the border. Although with the trip to the border maybe little difference. Depending on where you live leaving Laos every month isn't that difficult. As I said most people doing this are going to spend the afternoon or a night at the border and go shopping as the selection of goods in Laos is very limited and can be more expensive.

Usually in my experience only tourists wishing to stay a bit longer used extensions where as all my friends and others living in Laos went to the border for the one month tourist visa.

I am not an expert on extensions but I believe you can extend two times and after that you must go to the border and then come in under a new tourist visa. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong.

Most likely you will live somewhere close to a border or with access to an airport like Vientiane, Luang Prabang, Savannakhet, Tha Kek, Pakse, 4,000 islands. So a visa run isn't difficult to do. It would be unusual for a foreigner to move somewhere way out in the sticks with out being married or having some sort of business they do.

I can imagine that would mean a new passport very quickly though! Let's not forget that cost and hassle.

[anotheruser]

I guess if that makes or breaks your decision, Laos is probably not for you. Laos in general is a pain in the ass getting anything done if you live there. The casual visitor finds the slow pace of life and doing things charming but if you want to accomplish anything in Laos you had better be patient.