How Thailand Perceives the Massive Influx of Digital Nomads

[rwdrwdrwd]

@timmyp - depending how you operate (what jurisdiction, whether via a Ltd co or not), you can get insurance against non payers. The other option is to factor invoices and pass on the risk (for a fee). In both cases though it requires adhering to a strict process.

Once had what turned out to be a very dodgy agent with a penchant for phoenix companies try to screw me for 14k GBP back in the UK... got it in the end but took 4 years and some very sly, methodical means to become such a problem for their ongoing 'business' that the guy behind the scam had to pay it personally, they (entirely intentionally) ripped off at least 5 others for similar sums who never got paid, and appeared to have been getting away with it under various names for years. Some real crooks out there.

In terms of billing, pretty sure there are international umbrella cos that could take care of all invoicing / chasing for you. Of course the more third parties you add the lower your income.

RE accounting, from my experience best to incorporate in a really low reporting environment, in hindsight I would go BVI - suspect I wouldn't even need one, since no filing reqs.

Edited June 26, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[timmyp]

@timmyp - depending how you operate (what jurisdiction, whether via a Ltd co or not), you can get insurance against non payers. The other option is to factor invoices and pass on the risk (for a fee). In both cases though it requires adhering to a strict process.

RE accounting, from my experience best to incorporate in a really low reporting environment, in hindsight I would go BVI - suspect I wouldn't even need one, since no filing reqs.

Thanks for the advice, rwd³. Things have gone well for me so far. Most of my clients are larger companies or agencies, and have their own reputations to keep, so I think that is why they have been so good about paying me. Hopefully I won't have a bad experience that drives me to get insurance on clients who don't pay.

I don't have a company, nor the desire to start one. It's easy to feel very overwhelmed by everything involved in starting a company. Few benefits apply to me, and alot of demerits and hassles would come into play. Life is easier just as an independent contractor. Years ago I had a card, but I don't even bother with that anymore. Everything is online now, I haven't met a single client in over 5 years.

I've never even heard of BVI, I had to look it up...

My accounts and billing are very easy to keep track of, I just hate doing it! Just something about dealing with that end of things that really bothers me. If I were a more of a money-oriented guy, I probably wouldn't mind invoicing people.

I believe you and I have had some email exchanges about music, btw, in real life outside this forum . I might have that wrong though.

Anyway, thanks for advice.

[gk10002000]

People have been making money as "xxx Nomads" for a long time. People such as book writers, or authors of other things, document or publication reviewers or critics, proposal writers for companies, etc. None of their monies or income have anything to do with the country they are visiting. The difference was, they usually didn't just hang out in a foreign country forever as many so called digital Nomads are doing or trying to do. In this day and age, many people make money outside of a regular job. I myself get an awful lot of income from my investments (Stock and fund Dividends, bond interest, etc.). I am not an active trader or crazy day trader, but I do monitor and maintain my portfolio. Is that much different than being a Nomad? I happen to be over 50 so I could retire with the proper visa in Thailand and not have any issue. I am sure there are many young people that earn more from their investments than I do, but they could not legally get a retirement "visa". The proper answer is the Thailand Elite Visa. But, an Ed visa could be appropriate as long as the persons are following the basic rules.

How do you define what defines work outside of the hours and time spent on the Ed Visa requirements? What is work versus monitoring and adjusting one's investments in one's home country? What if a person owns and manages a 40 unit apartment building, or a 50 unit nursing center? Daily phone call with the on-site manager, emails and telecons with vendors/suppliers, etc. Is that considered work while being in Thailand?

[Soutpeel]

What if a person owns and manages a 40 unit apartment building, or a 50 unit nursing center? Daily phone call with the on-site manager, emails and telecons with vendors/suppliers, etc. Is that considered work while being in Thailand?

I would say yes it is, as one has direct involvement in the day to day running of the business, this in not "investment" this is running a business as the owner

and the rational is the same to differentiate between "working" and "investing" in a Thai company as well...if you play no active role in the company other than putting money in, your not working in said company, only an investor, but in your example the person is clearly not just investing

[rwdrwdrwd]

Oh god, not the 'what is work' discussion again.

Definition of "work" in Thai law - "work means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefit"

Logically, this is the reduction

work === work + (energy || knowledge) + ((wages || !wages) || (benefits || !benefits))

work === work + (energy || knowledge)

and given we're at this point, logically we know that the law says

work + (energy || knowledge) === work + (energy || knowledge)

Hope that clears it all up, work is work (using energy or knowledge)

I'm sure we're all now 100% clear on what construes working in Thai law. Work.

Edited June 28, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[Soutpeel]

Oh god, not the 'what is work' discussion again.

Definition of "work" in Thai law - "work means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefit"

Logically, this is the reduction

work === work + (energy || knowledge) + ((wages || !wages) || (benefits || !benefits))

work === work + (energy || knowledge)

and given we're at this point, logically we know that the law says

work + (energy || knowledge) === work + (energy || knowledge)

Hope that clears it all up, work is work (using energy or knowledge)

I'm sure we're all now 100% clear on what construes working in Thai law. Work.

or you could just simplify this complex equation by saying

work = what the department of labours deems it to be in a specific set of circumstances

[jspill]

Zero arrests so far of these 'digtal nomads' for working online remotely for offshore entities that have nothing to do with Thailand.

So the department of labour is either not working very hard, or doesn't mind.

[robblok]

Oh god, not the 'what is work' discussion again.

Definition of "work" in Thai law - "work means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or benefit"

Logically, this is the reduction

work === work + (energy || knowledge) + ((wages || !wages) || (benefits || !benefits))

work === work + (energy || knowledge)

and given we're at this point, logically we know that the law says

work + (energy || knowledge) === work + (energy || knowledge)

Hope that clears it all up, work is work (using energy or knowledge)

I'm sure we're all now 100% clear on what construes working in Thai law. Work.

or you could just simplify this complex equation by saying

work = what the department of labours deems it to be in a specific set of circumstances

Too bad that this again depends on the official and can vary a lot. Thailand really does not have many clear definitions that are upheld by everyone.

[Soutpeel]

Zero arrests so far of these 'digtal nomads' for working online remotely for offshore entities that have nothing to do with Thailand.

So the department of labour is either not working very hard, or doesn't mind.

Ah the same old cliches come out again

My money is on not working very hard, lets face it, not easy to track down / enforce and one suspects quite costly as regards a budget, fair easier to stop this, if they are inclined by targeting the visa's/ visa runners etc, far more effective and cheaper as the people are coming to them.

Further your making incorrect generalised statements for the whole DOL, the premise of the law is decided on a case for case and department by department level

The fact is Phuket DOL/Immigration, at least, stated their position definitively some time back - they said its illegal And they will prosecute if they catch someone, further in a related article, a guy from Aussie asked the question about working on line from Thailand to service his clients in Aussie with living in Thailand for a few months, and again was told categorically this was illegal and it was suggested he didn't do this while in Thailand - these answers came directly from the Phuket DOL/immigration

So your stretching your rationalisation to limit by suggesting just because they are not actively hunting these people down, then they don't mind or its even "legal" one day someone will stick their head too far above the parapet and it will get "taken off"

If someone is working illegally on line from Thailand, best thing they can do is keep their traps shut and don't start making "demands" about visa's or other "rights"

All opinions of course below - but this is appears to be the general consensus

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/755328-can-i-do-online-business-as-tourist/

http://www.thethailandlife.com/working-online-thailand

Edited June 28, 2015 by Soutpeel

[alocacoc]

What about this?

Thai immigration officials say digital nomads OK to work on tourist visas

Digital nomads – people working remotely or running online businesses – in Thailand can legally work there on tourist visas, said immigration officials in Chiang Mai. CityNews Chiang Mai reported that immigration officials addressed the digital nomad question at a seminar this week, following a recent visa crackdown that raised questions about the future of online entrepreneurs living and working in Thailand. Generally speaking, to work in Thailand, foreigners should hold non-immigrant B visas and must obtain work permits from their employers. However, the increasing number of people working online does not fit into any neat visa category.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-officials-say-digital-nomads-ok-to-work-on-tourist-visas/

What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/

Edited June 28, 2015 by alocacoc

[Soutpeel]

What about this?

Thai immigration officials say digital nomads OK to work on tourist visas

Digital nomads – people working remotely or running online businesses – in Thailand can legally work there on tourist visas, said immigration officials in Chiang Mai. CityNews Chiang Mai reported that immigration officials addressed the digital nomad question at a seminar this week, following a recent visa crackdown that raised questions about the future of online entrepreneurs living and working in Thailand. Generally speaking, to work in Thailand, foreigners should hold non-immigrant B visas and must obtain work permits from their employers. However, the increasing number of people working online does not fit into any neat visa category.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/125980/thai-immigration-officials-say-digital-nomads-ok-to-work-on-tourist-visas/

What if I want to work in Thailand?

If you are working for a Thai company, you will need a non-immigrant (type visa and then a work permit in order to work legally.

If you are a ‘digital nomad’ running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/news/new-visa-rules-explained/

According to a TV member who was at that meeting, this story is incorrect, this wasn't what was said and quoted out of context, this information relates to an off re cuff remark by an immigration official when questioned about the legality of bono fide tourists checking their work email from home, nothing to do with digital Nomadary..

If you don't believe me drop NancyL, the TV member who was at the meeting and she will confirm what I have indicated above..

This "news story" was debunked a long time ago...

Further its not in the remit of immigration to make these statements, the legality of whether on is working or not falls under the DOL, not immigration, and even if it where permitted it would only apply in Chang Mai not country wide

Edited June 28, 2015 by Soutpeel

[IMA_FARANG]

Tell me , please, If I moved to London as a Thai, and opened a computer web site construction business but didn't pay any U;K; taxes and expected full NHS medical benefits for myself would I be considered as a "world citizen" by everyone in the U.K. and could I then call my self a "digital nomad" residing in the U.K. ?

If not, why do you suppose that by reversing the situation and you coming here and claiming to be a "digital nomad"" in Thailand would be approved of by the Thais any more than it would be approved of in the U.K.by the Brits?

As is mentioned below this fictional tory about "digital nomads" being allowed to "work" in Thailand on a tourist visa was created by the deliberate misconception of a off-hand remark made by an immigration official who made some comments about people being allowed to check their email when staying in Thailand..... and then deliberately stretched by others to make it seem that their activities had been "approved" by immigration..

It just isn't true.

Edited June 28, 2015 by IMA_FARANG

[robblok]

Tell me , please, If I moved to London as a Thai, and opened a computer web site construction business but didn't pay any U;K; taxes and expected full NHS medical benefits for myself would I be considered as a "world citizen" by everyone in the U.K. and could I then call my self a "digital nomad" residing in the U.K. ?

If not, why do you suppose that reversing the situation and you coming here and claiming to be a "digital nomad"" in Thailand would be approved of by the Thais any more than it would be approved of in Thailand.?

Thing is mate in the UK they would not force you to hire 4 Brits, and I doubt that any of the digital nomads expects free healthcare here.

But I do know that there are plenty of Brits making use of NHS even though they don't qualify anymore and are living in Thailand. I think that is fraud too. But I guess then its a different kind of fraud and allowable.

[Ace of Pop]

Influx.?. Before it was Hippies ,then Druggies and Social Security Bums

[Soutpeel]

Tell me , please, If I moved to London as a Thai, and opened a computer web site construction business but didn't pay any U;K; taxes and expected full NHS medical benefits for myself would I be considered as a "world citizen" by everyone in the U.K. and could I then call my self a "digital nomad" residing in the U.K. ?

If not, why do you suppose that reversing the situation and you coming here and claiming to be a "digital nomad"" in Thailand would be approved of by the Thais any more than it would be approved of in Thailand.?

Thing is mate in the UK they would not force you to hire 4 Brits, and I doubt that any of the digital nomads expects free healthcare here.

But I do know that there are plenty of Brits making use of NHS even though they don't qualify anymore and are living in Thailand. I think that is fraud too. But I guess then its a different kind of fraud and allowable.

the thing is mate...they wouldn't get a visa in the first place to get into the UK, as they had no grounds to be given one, you cant live as a perpetual tourist in the UK as a Thai national, one suspects if Thailand imposed similar requirements 3/4 of the DM's in Thailand wouldn't even be in country bleating on about a visa...

I also doubt any of the DM's expect free health care in Thailand either, but very obvious what they do want for "free"..... a long term visa

as to your remarks about the NHS what has that got to do with DM's ?..

[CharlieH]

discuss/debate the subject NOT the poster !

refer to rule 7 of forum rules.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Tell me , please, If I moved to London as a Thai, and opened a computer web site construction business but didn't pay any U;K; taxes and expected full NHS medical benefits for myself would I be considered as a "world citizen" by everyone in the U.K. and could I then call my self a "digital nomad" residing in the U.K. ?

If not, why do you suppose that by reversing the situation and you coming here and claiming to be a "digital nomad"" in Thailand would be approved of by the Thais any more than it would be approved of in the U.K.by the Brits?

As is mentioned below this fictional tory about "digital nomads" being allowed to "work" in Thailand on a tourist visa was created by the deliberate misconception of a off-hand remark made by an immigration official who made some comments about people being allowed to check their email when staying in Thailand..... and then deliberately stretched by others to make it seem that their activities had been "approved" by immigration..

It just isn't true.

That is not a 'reversal' of the "digital nomad" operating model.

A reversal would be if If I 'moved' to London as a Thai, and freelanced for non UK companies over the internet, being paid outside of the UK.

And in terms of tax the answer is that legally that income is not subject to UK income. Non domiciled UK residents (as I would be in that scenario) are not taxed on their non UK sourced income.

I know numerous people that do this, mostly EU and American (for some reason they like the place)

Edited June 28, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[farang000999]

I don't think I have seen anyone on Thai Visa as passionate about anything as Soutpeel is about digital nomads. The only exception might be "Age of Consent" topics.

[Soutpeel]

I don't think I have seen anyone on Thai Visa as passionate about anything as Soutpeel is about digital nomads. The only exception might be "Age of Consent" topics.

Actually I couldn't care less about digital nomads, but I enjoy the debate on the topic and do take exception to people "demanding" special visa's and privileges just because they have a lap top under their arm.

If the digital nomads kept quiet about what they are up to, then there is nothing to talk about/debate is there ?

but I must confess the pouting, stamping their little feet and attitude of "its just not fair" among the typical digital nomad is rather amusing

Why are you so passionate about the "age of consent" topics's anyway ? you have a interest in having sex with children do you ? ...very brave of you to openly admit that..your not Rolf Harris are you ?.

[jspill]

Over the years on Thaivisa I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've seen a digital nomad 'demanding a special visa or privileges'. I'm happy with living here on the current visa options, and everyone online worker I know is too.

I post here to counter the assertion that it's 100% illegal to have a remote, offshore source of income that stems from tinkering around on websites while on a beach in Thailand and hitting withdraw on Paypal.