American gay couple unable to leave Thailand with daughter

[Sean1982]

so far it's all me me me, what about the baby!

Yes, poor baby, how is it going to know which one to call mum and which one to call dad?

As the child is growing up and sees their little pals with normal mums and dads, what is it going

to do to their minds?

That's so true... it must be confusing to an organism that has these 2 words implanted into his / her mind at the point of conception (in English as well of course), in addition to a solid understanding of parenting structure, then pop into the world only to be confronted with the horror of being unable to reconcile that conceived knowledge with reality ...it's enough to make the poor little fella's head explode!

I agree that we must all think of the children, we must think of all of those being born right now who's little head's might explode if introduced into an environment and ideology that's different from the one they developed as a fetus from their extensive vantage point.

Seeing as you clearly have a vast understanding of the topic (as shown by definitive worded comments) should we also take babies away automatically and immediately from single mothers? Who would the child call, "Dad", otherwise? Surely the child is at a disadvantage and might be bullied. Any while we're on the topic, would not taking them away still cause or perhaps speed up the head exploding process?

This all makes sense right? A child is conceived already understanding the words mum and dad, so the rest just 'logically' follows, right?...wait.

[RedNIvar]

I have no objection to life style choices. Gay, straight or whatever. I do have concern however when you deviate out of your lifestyle choice. If the gay way of life produces off spring then hey congrats. However a gay coupleseeking surrogacy is a tad bit hypocrital to me. You choose a gay lifestyle but yearn the outcome of a straight lifestyle. If you do have money and feel the need for a child, then adopt. There are so many orphans in this world.

So, if straight couples are infertile.....

Perhaps you missed it when people explained human sexuality not changing the desire some people have to be parents?

Quick, let's return to the days when men married, then had kids, then left.. That closeted life surely was better!

Let's not make the exception the rule. If there is a real desire to be a parent, there are orphans looking for you in poor countries. Some places a little money goes a long way.

[Jay Sata]

looks a bit fishy to me, a surrogate that is not the biological mother! how does that work? It seems the couple are looking to cheat the system and nature.

Donor egg (from Indian woman) fertilized outside the womb with American guys sperm, then implanted into a third party (Thai) womb.

Supposedly stops the third party woman claiming parental rights ...... cos they aren't a parent.

Thai woman gives birth to baby in Thailand makes the infant Thai.

That leaves her holding all the cards and of course she can speak Thai while the two Americn guys face a long struggle to get the child out of the country.

If they plan to try the legal approach well we all know how slow the courts are in Thailand.

The other question is why use the Thai woman?

What is wrong with a surrogate from the good ol' USA?

Edited June 25, 2015 by Jay Sata

[MaeJoMTB]

looks a bit fishy to me, a surrogate that is not the biological mother! how does that work? It seems the couple are looking to cheat the system and nature.

Donor egg (from Indian woman) fertilized outside the womb with American guys sperm, then implanted into a third party (Thai) womb.

Supposedly stops the third party woman claiming parental rights ...... cos they aren't a parent.

Thai woman gives birth to baby in Thailand make the infant Thai.

That leaves her holding all the cards and of course she can speak Thai while the two Americn guys face a long struggle to get the child out of the country.

Their mistake was using Thailand and a Thai woman, as the country of birth, it's laws are too primitive to deal with the concept.

Now if they had chosen a Burmese or hill tribe woman to do the gestation in Thailand, it would have been a different outcome.

(someone without any Thai ID)

[Sean1982]

And re. the use of the word 'normal' that keeps popping up, I understand 'normal' to be largely subjective and related to ones environment... that something that propagates most frequently in a particular environment is considered 'normal' in that environment... I also understand 'normal' to be unrelated to whether or not something is inherently beneficial or negative... apparently some people also attach the words 'good' or 'the way it should be' to the meaning of the word 'normal'. So in a nutshell, normal = good, the way it should be.

And we should only propagate 'good' ideas right? So should only the most 'normal' things ever be adopted?

By the way that some posts are written, it's implied that having gay parents = bad, because, not normal, therefore bullying.

Excellent, now we just need to demonstrate that with evidence and this debate is won.

Let's see... hmmm... well, damn all the peer reviewed scientific research we keep finding!! It consistently shows that there's no difference in children raised by same-sex parents!! If only that could all disappear or if everyone could ignore it... that way preconceived ideas of it being wrong could propagate, and we've already established that the most propagated ideas are 'good' by default right?

Perhaps all those scientists are just pro-gay marriage adoption and fudging the results?

And using this insinuated 'normal' = good idea, I suppose by that logic, the same people are also of course against black parents raising their children in white neighbourhoods? I guess single parents should have their kids taken away or immediately be shackled with the first person of the opposite sex that's found for them to create the facade of 'normalcy'?

Or how about children of mixed relationships? - of course none of these same people would happen to be in relationships with Thai? If so, it's great that he / she knows you'll never have a child with them because it wouldn't be 'normal' enough to do that... after all, what would the poor child think when it sees it's pals with Thai parents but one of their own has a 'falang' parent?

Look, I'm sorry to be a patronising d**k, and I realise that not all of my examples are perfect, but things only become 'normal' when other 'ways' are allowed to flourish. And unless anyone has evidence to counter the available evidence and suggest that 2 gay men or 2 gay women (those being the ONLY identifiers factored in, because God forbid people be looked at as individuals having other characteristics outside of those identifiers) have negative impacts on the "minds" of their children, or 'strong' reasons to suggest that this would be the case, I'm asking that we please examine our positions, in particular by seeking out evidence trying to disprove them, it may just change our minds for the better.

[thaibeachlovers]

"Release the homophobes!"

I expected expats living in Thailand to be a little bit more open minded myself.

It seems they are torn between "keep those fags away from having kids" or "make them raise one of the babies from a bar girl I got pregnant while cheating on my wife".

Why?

Only 10 % of the world's population is homosexual. The rest of the population probably either doesn't care or is absolutely opposed ( Muslims etc ). The success of the homosexual population in western countries is in convincing their societies that everyone supports them.

I put myself in the "don't care either way" category. Do what you like, but don't flaunt it in my face.

As for the OP, there are already too many people in the world. Adoption is a perfectly rational way to obtain a baby to satisfy whatever urges one has re children.

[Patsycat]

Poor kid gonna grow up without a mother figure.

What about grandmothers, aunties, female friends of the family?

Some of you lot sound like members of America's Most Hated Family!! Westboro Baptist Church!! Google them if you don't know them.

I hope everything turns out well for this couple and that they can go home as a complete family and live happily with their healthy, happy kids. And bring them up with no prejudices.

Jeez, even 45 years ago i was at school with a couple of kids who had two mums. No one batted an eyelid nor were they bullied. I think curiosity was the most they got.

[NoshowJones]

Holy homophobia Batman! What a bunch of prejudiced dinosaurs we have here.

Personally, I think a loving gay couple are likely to make better parents than an ex-hooker and an old man who'll likely be dead before the kid finishes school, in a relationship based on a financial transaction - but nobody seems to object to that sort of parenting round these parts.

My exact sentiments.... , just last week, I saw this old guy, about 80 walking or should I say scuffling along with a very small baby in his arms, and I thought it was a bit bizarre, then I saw this Thai Bird, about 20 years old with loads of Tatoos.... (Tramp stamp), come up to him and hold his arm ??? Fine if they are happy there lives, but he looked as though he was about to pop his clogs any minute.....

I don't agree with either, an old guy is going to have some time with his kid, and he only has that 30 year younger wife because he has plenty of money, but two men bringing up a kid together????? that is just cruel to the kid, he/she is going to spend the rest of his/her life wondering "will I call them both dad or what?

His/her mind is going to go all sort of ways, he /she is going to wonder why his pals (that's if he/ she ever has any) have a female mum and a male dad,

and he/she is going to resent the fact that he/she is different from normal people. It is just cruel to bring up a kid in that unnatural way.

[Beetlejuice]

I so totally disagree with this surrogate business, and it is a business. It is no different from prostitution where women are using their bodies as a product and for a service.

Through surrogacy the official processes of adoption can go under the radar, by-passed, a loop hole around the system. Babies could end up anywhere, breed as slaves or even for medical experiments and body parts, that I have no doubts is already happening. I believe it should be made a criminal offence for women to become surrogate birth vessels without going via the official procedures.

Regardless whether the couple are same sex or not, the question is; would they make suitable parents? It has to be morally wrong when it becomes possible to obtain a baby as easily as choosing a puppy from a litter of dogs. This whole question of surrogate births has to be given priority and somehow regulated for reasons mentioned above.

[NoshowJones]

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

But many would argue, myself included, that most of the anti-gay equal civil rights "opinions" being expressed here (and everywhere really) are rooted in bigotry and ignorance.

We have the right to that opinion as well.

Yes, you have the right to your opinion, but just think of the poor kids.

[Jonmarleesco]

I have no objection to life style choices. Gay, straight or whatever. I do have concern however when you deviate out of your lifestyle choice. If the gay way of life produces off spring then hey congrats. However a gay coupleseeking surrogacy is a tad bit hypocrital to me. You choose a gay lifestyle but yearn the outcome of a straight lifestyle. If you do have money and feel the need for a child, then adopt. There are so many orphans in this world.

Nail on the head.

[Mudcrab]

Although I'm amused by the homophobia on this thread, it was inevitable that it would emerge, it does actually cloud the issue somewhat. -

There are 2 main things going on here, one is people's prejudices about gay couples, but the other is the matter of surrogacy and all the issues surrounding that.

the former i find sad but inevitable and a reflection on the ignorance of many people who have decided to post on an issue that is actually tangential to the OP. The Latter I find somewhat distasteful.

firstly I see no reason why same sex couples should;'t have children one way or another - regardless of one's sexual orientation the urge to have children remains and can be very strong.

The problem I have is that gay OR straight, people get overwhelmed by the need for children and begin to see it as a right.....I don't agree. ....and on the top of the list I have deep reservations about surrogacy as a way to parenthood. I'm not saying it should e illegal or banned - the usual redneck response to something they don't understand -burt I think all partied involved should think long and hard about the processes involved here. So often the whole thing smacks of exploitation - the surrogate mothers are usually very poor and the prospective parents are usually wealthy middle class from another country - surely anyone taking a step back from this can see there is a multitude of questionable actions and motives going on here?

There are millions of children all over the world who need care - as humans and mammals we are genetically programmed to adopt, so the need to be genetically connected, whilst sometimes a good idea, doesn't have to be the all engulfing prerequisite, does it?

For a successful surrogacy the people need to be fully informed and capable of understanding all aspects of the process - I suspect the situation in the OP is pretty much as I outlined above - poorer woman, rich parents, but it has also brought out the problems of intercultural surrogacy that can arise most likely from the woman's poor education she is relying on a one-sided view of gay relationships and the benefit of a true full education has probably been denied her - so this sorry situation has arisen.

the same applies to the prospective couple they clearly were not in possession of all the facts,and pitfalls that they might expect.....and in the middle of it all is another person - a child - just waiting to start a life.

And I'm amused by the continued use of the derogatory term homophobia to denigrate some peoples opinions.

A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. Think arachnophobia and spiders.

It seems that some in the gay community can't handle the fact that some people simply do not like homosexuals, so they choose to use words that allude to some form of mental illness to describe their detractors.

If you want to promote or defend a certain thing, please do so without using derogatory terms.....people might actually listen then.

[FritsSikkink]

gay or not if you want to adopt go through the proper channels and don't buy kids

[h90]

I have no objection to life style choices. Gay, straight or whatever. I do have concern however when you deviate out of your lifestyle choice. If the gay way of life produces off spring then hey congrats. However a gay coupleseeking surrogacy is a tad bit hypocrital to me. You choose a gay lifestyle but yearn the outcome of a straight lifestyle. If you do have money and feel the need for a child, then adopt. There are so many orphans in this world.

So, if straight couples are infertile.....

Perhaps you missed it when people explained human sexuality not changing the desire some people have to be parents?

Quick, let's return to the days when men married, then had kids, then left.. That closeted life surely was better!

If straight couples are infertile (no living sperm or eggs) they should adopt a child.

What is the point of making a child from which are are not the biologic parents if there are enough unwanted poor babies that need parents.

[Jingthing]

Although I'm amused by the homophobia on this thread, it was inevitable that it would emerge, it does actually cloud the issue somewhat. -

There are 2 main things going on here, one is people's prejudices about gay couples, but the other is the matter of surrogacy and all the issues surrounding that.

the former i find sad but inevitable and a reflection on the ignorance of many people who have decided to post on an issue that is actually tangential to the OP. The Latter I find somewhat distasteful.

firstly I see no reason why same sex couples should;'t have children one way or another - regardless of one's sexual orientation the urge to have children remains and can be very strong.

The problem I have is that gay OR straight, people get overwhelmed by the need for children and begin to see it as a right.....I don't agree. ....and on the top of the list I have deep reservations about surrogacy as a way to parenthood. I'm not saying it should e illegal or banned - the usual redneck response to something they don't understand -burt I think all partied involved should think long and hard about the processes involved here. So often the whole thing smacks of exploitation - the surrogate mothers are usually very poor and the prospective parents are usually wealthy middle class from another country - surely anyone taking a step back from this can see there is a multitude of questionable actions and motives going on here?

There are millions of children all over the world who need care - as humans and mammals we are genetically programmed to adopt, so the need to be genetically connected, whilst sometimes a good idea, doesn't have to be the all engulfing prerequisite, does it?

For a successful surrogacy the people need to be fully informed and capable of understanding all aspects of the process - I suspect the situation in the OP is pretty much as I outlined above - poorer woman, rich parents, but it has also brought out the problems of intercultural surrogacy that can arise most likely from the woman's poor education she is relying on a one-sided view of gay relationships and the benefit of a true full education has probably been denied her - so this sorry situation has arisen.

the same applies to the prospective couple they clearly were not in possession of all the facts,and pitfalls that they might expect.....and in the middle of it all is another person - a child - just waiting to start a life.

And I'm amused by the continued use of the derogatory term homophobia to denigrate some peoples opinions.

A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. Think arachnophobia and spiders.

It seems that some in the gay community can't handle the fact that some people simply do not like homosexuals, so they choose to use words that allude to some form of mental illness to describe their detractors.

If you want to promote or defend a certain thing, please do so without using derogatory terms.....people might actually listen then.

Not that garbage again.

Dude, consult a dictionary.

We all do know the ROOT word phobia is about FEAR.

But check a dictionary and you will find the word HOMOPHOBIA actually means BOTH fear and hatred.

That is the definition.

That is the word we are talking about.

That is settled unless the definition changes in future.

Of course gay people know full well that lots of people are haters on gay people. DUH!

We've got some of them here, some open about it, some BS artists acting like they're not.

[richard_smith237]

I think some people forget their humanity when imposing their views...

If any couple or single parent can provide a loving and stable future for a child I wish them luck.

As a business Surrogacy as with adoption requires some level of control - The science is there, its safe and sound, who are we to get in the way of peoples wishes (caveat above: loving and stable environment).

This case appears a little convoluted as a foreign couple have a non-biological surrogate (fertilised donor egg) in a foreign country.

IMO: This should be a non-issue - bureaucracy and dated laws may be tripping up a simple process.

[nithisa78]

Just make a run to the ATM, and surrogate's family will be satisfied...for a few weeks.

please, put your head back in the sand. you don't have a clue what is going on here.

[MaeJoMTB]

No reason to pick on gay, single or elderly parents,

Until they introduce an exam and licence to become a parent, anyone can play.

I see lots of young guys (and girls), that clearly shouldn't be parents, posting on this forum every day.

Bigots make bad parents.

[h90]

No reason to pick on gay, single or elderly parents,

Until they introduce an exam and licence to become a parent, anyone can play.

I see lots of young guys (and girls), that clearly shouldn't be parents, posting on this forum every day.

Bigots make bad parents.

Explain me how you can make an exam to be a responsible loving person?

Look at how many people by lovely puppys. When they grow up and get smelly big dogs they loose interest.

If you mail order a baby, which you aren't a biologic parent and you didn't had him/her in your womb than you would easily get annoyed when he/she get a problematic kid....

Kids, as much as we love them are also terrible burdens and terrible annoying sometimes.

[NoshowJones]

The poor child, he/she will loose whichever way it goes. If the child stay here its doomed into poverty. If the child becomes the child of a gay couple, the child will have to survive all the negatives in school of having same sex parents. Its very interesting that there is no long term study ever done on the effects of children growing up in a same sex home. So scientificaly I cant say it will be negative and neither can same sex couples say it will be positive or neutral. But from living live I know what abuse these children will endure at school. Unfortunately governments only love science when it suites them, in this case I believe that governments have approved child adoption by same sex partners without doing the research needed to determine the long term effects on children. Hereby I am not saying the same sex parents will be at fault, but I believe society views could harm these children. The need of the adults to have children can never override the well being of the child.

With respect, can't you see that it's old fashioned and outdated attitudes like yours that are leading 'societies views".? I'm sure you are well intentioned and truly believe that you have the child's welfare at heart but the chain of discrimination has to be broken at some stage so rather than perpetuate the negative, why don't you try encouraging the positives?

It wasn't so long ago that it was firmly believed that black and white children shouldn't mix because it 'wasn't fair on the kids'. Thankfully time has shown that not to be the case but it took some brave people to stand up to 'the norm' and say that attitudes had to change. I see the debate about gay marriage and gay people having children as being equal to the Civil Rights movement predominately in the US but also in Europe and that in 20 years no one will think twice about LGBT community having equal rights to marriage, adoption etc that the rest of us have enjoyed all of our lives. And by the way, children are a lot more resilient (and open minded) than you give them credit for and will readily accept a 'different' parental set up IF they are not unduly influenced by backward thinking parents.

It's not the same, people are all the same no matter the colour of their skin. Homosexual and straight folk are completely different, homosexuals are OK if no one is getting hurt and they keep their goings ons to themselves, I understand homosexuals can't help what they are and respect that, but it is not normal behaviour, and they should not be getting "married" or adopting children.

[jdinasia]

No reason to pick on gay, single or elderly parents,

Until they introduce an exam and licence to become a parent, anyone can play.

I see lots of young guys (and girls), that clearly shouldn't be parents, posting on this forum every day.

Bigots make bad parents.

Explain me how you can make an exam to be a responsible loving person?

Look at how many people by lovely puppys. When they grow up and get smelly big dogs they loose interest.

If you mail order a baby, which you aren't a biologic parent and you didn't had him/her in your womb than you would easily get annoyed when he/she get a problematic kid....

Kids, as much as we love them are also terrible burdens and terrible annoying sometimes.

You are projecting.

[cumgranosalum]

Some classic homophobic phrases - did you use any of these? Then you are almost certainly homophobic and have issues that need addressing.....

1. Some of my best friends are.....
2. I’ve got nothing against them but....
3. Not that there’s anything wrong with that......
4. It’s not natural, is it?
5. ... so long as they don't try any funny business
6. While not caring one way or another about a person's sexual choice of partner

[attrayant]

I would think it would really have a psychological effect on [children] that wwould stay with them for life

You'd might think so, but you'd be wrong.

Study Finds No Difference Between Children Raised By Same-Sex and Heterosexual Couples

“Consensus is overwhelming in terms of there being no difference in children who are raised by same-sex or different- sex parents,” University of Oregon sociology professor Ryan Light said on Tuesday.

[sanuk711]

"I don't think I am prejudiced or homophobic, and have a few gay friends"-----ebonykap

You've got gay friends --wow--

How about black....?........ got any Black friends----I bet you have....some of your best friends are probably Black ??

I bet you've also got some Chinese friends haven't you ?----- crafty people aren't they ?

& Jew got an odd Jew as a friend yet..?.....work on it if you haven't ---give JingThing a call

well---I'd say your quite the well rounded fellow----- homophobic gosh no........

"should you be gay, decide to live a gay life whether partnered or married, then you sacrifice the right to adopt, surrogate or raise children period." ----ebonykap

[Bluespunk]

I have no objection to life style choices. Gay, straight or whatever. I do have concern however when you deviate out of your lifestyle choice. If the gay way of life produces off spring then hey congrats. However a gay coupleseeking surrogacy is a tad bit hypocrital to me. You choose a gay lifestyle but yearn the outcome of a straight lifestyle. If you do have money and feel the need for a child, then adopt. There are so many orphans in this world.

You can only adopt a child in Thailand, if you are married the hetero way. I have never heard about the possibility of a gay couple adopting a child in Thailand. Men alone cannot adopt a child here.

No one is adopting. I thought the guy in the post was the biological father.

[Jingthing]

Some of the bigoted rhetoric here mirrors the worse stuff coming out of the government of Putin's Russia. Hard core homophobia! Happily, Thailand's government isn't nearly as bad as that. It just doesn't legally recognize gay relationships.

The couple in this news story seems to be in a difficult place here in two ways. Surrogacy for foreigners is soon on the way out for all here and also their relationship has no status here. I wish them good luck because I think they're going to need it.

As I've said, I am no fan of surrogacy for anyone. I think adoption is better but if there is surrogacy allowed it's only fair that qualified gay parents shouldn't be discriminated against.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Jingthing

[Prbkk]

There does need to be greater clarity on the legality of surrogacy in Thailand. Posters will recall the Australian couple who declined to accept the male twin with significant health issues but scampered quick smart back home with the girl who was healthy.

In that case, did it not transpire that the 'father' was a convicted sex offender?

The Australian public was so outraged by the actions of the pair that hundreds of thousands of $$$$ were raised to provide for the boy.

That case and that of the Japanese weirdo who wanted to repopulate Japan in his own image, raised questions over the legal status in Thailand. Not yet clarified.

I can see no reason whatsoever for gay couples not to be given an opportunity to be parents...but like many others would prefer it to be through adoption (and the same for straight couples).

Edited June 25, 2015 by Prbkk

[phrodan]

Why could the American man not arranged for surrogacy in the US?

[HooHaa]

the gay angle is irrelevant in my mind, but it would seem trotting the globe and purchasing children would be problematic for any except angelina jolie

[HooHaa]

I have no objection to life style choices. Gay, straight or whatever. I do have concern however when you deviate out of your lifestyle choice. If the gay way of life produces off spring then hey congrats. However a gay coupleseeking surrogacy is a tad bit hypocrital to me. You choose a gay lifestyle but yearn the outcome of a straight lifestyle. If you do have money and feel the need for a child, then adopt. There are so many orphans in this world.

You can only adopt a child in Thailand, if you are married the hetero way. I have never heard about the possibility of a gay couple adopting a child in Thailand. Men alone cannot adopt a child here.

No one is adopting. I thought the guy in the post was the biological father.

then perhaps you should read the post.

EDIT:

i take that back, he has volunteerd for DN testing, but the article is a confused mess, the initial paragraphs state that the surrogate agreed to put his name on the birth cert, and that the surrogate was not the biological mother, and that they had not met until the day before the baby was born, most odd indeed.

Edited June 25, 2015 by HooHaa