Used Car Pricing In Thailand

[Thaiquila]

I don't get it.

Thai used cars seem to hold their resale value much better than in the US (not sure about other countries).

There seems to be some real paradoxes about this --

-- Thais culturally seem to not like USED things

-- I have heard time and time again Thais don't maintain their used cars as well as farangs, is this really true?

So why would a commodity that is not well maintained and not valued so much hold its value so well. Please "splane" it me. The only thing I can think of is plain greed and stubbornness. The mentality that well I paid a million baht for this, no matter the thing is five years old and 150 kilometers, I want most of my money back! You should be glad I ain't charging interest.

[Gary A]

Re-sale values are VERY high. I think most of the reason is that labor and parts are cheap thus even major repairs are cheap. A friend of mine has an old Mitsubishi diesel that blew a head gasket. They planed the head because it was warped, put in new valves, replaced the water pump and the timing belt for 7,000 baht complete. That included new cooling fluid and an oil and filter change.

[nikster]

Yeah, must be the cheap repairs, can't really explain it any other way.

I - well, not directly, but through friendly but unfortunately car-clueless father in law - paid 400K for a 10 year old car. A friend just bought a brand new 4WD Mitsubishi diesel pick-up for 600K. Does it make any sense? No.

As for maintainance, was absoluely true in my limited experience. We had to replace pretty much all expensive parts in this car, from the A/T to the head gaskets. It was very expensive.

I think the previous poster is right, the cars in Thailand are in such bad shape because mechanics and labor are so cheap. It's much cheaper to have a guy attempt some wild hack to solve a problem than to get the proper part. It's also much cheaper to get a part that "almost" fits. Whenever we took our Suzuki to a garage, they offered us quick hacks for cheap. Do that over a longer period of time and the car will end up being held together with some string and duct-tape. We ended up only using the Suzuki dealership. They were overpriced but at least they used the proper parts.

In the U.S., I bought used cars that were in pretty good shape, and some that were not.

On the opposite end of the spectrum must be car-crazed Germany - I bought a used Mercedes there, 11 years old. The passenger seat felt like new, the guy had receipts for Mercedes-Dealership service once per year over the last 10 years, and the car pretty much drove like new, too. Doing 120 MPH (Autobahn!!). Never had any problems during the time I owned it and sold for the same paltry EUR 2000 I had bought it for. When I left the prices for these old Mercedes were going up though because apparently most of them were being shipped to east Russia. I had a guy call me from Arminia (as per his caller ID!!)

[Phil Conners]

It's the same with every buying and selling of second hand stuff in Thailand.

People have an absurd idea of how much their old stuff is worth.

If, on the other hand, they're buying they don't want to pay anything.

[fxm88]

It's the same with every buying and selling of second hand stuff in Thailand.

People have an absurd idea of how much their old stuff is worth.

If, on the other hand, they're buying they don't want to pay anything.

OK, but this still begs the question. Sure, someone can start off with an unrealistic idea of what the market will bear but then what happens?

Does the market actually bear such an unrealistic price?

Do sellers gradually lower their expectations (and prices) as time drags on?

Do sellers give up on ever selling it and take it off the market? Since front yards here aren't generally large enough to accomodate a bunch of old cars on, where do the cars go?

Can they donate it to a charity and get a huge tax write-off based on the unrealisitc price?

Or do they persevere, neither lowering the price nor taking the car off the market? This last one would best explain the steadily increasing thickness of classified ad magazines such as Baht & Sold.

Is there a "blue book" for used cars prices in Thailand?

Edited September 16, 2006 by fxm88

[Khutan]

It is true that second hand cars hold their value well and that is nice when you are trying to do a "Trade in". I have noticed that the top end of th markt dos tnd to hit its "Used by" date after about 5 years. So a 5yo BMW or Benz seems to be very good value, particularly if it has a good srvice history.

Mind you, I was very excited over an SL 500 I saw recently, and I was nearly ready to make the Lifestyle Decision, over a 450SL, that was a boy-hood dream, so I looked in the Australian websites only to see its nearly double the cost of about the same Motor in Sydney.

Than then leaves me the question do I go the import grey-market route or pay the premium.

[solent01]

Easy answer

Thai's value thier cars more than they do the ban, for Low to Middle class Thai's the car, Pickup or what ever is seen as thier status, so when they sell they are selling from a status level, more than what the car is worth, my father-inlaw has a Nissan pickup thats 12 years old and already covered 200,000k's, in the U.K., it would be worth around 6 or 7 hundred quid (40k to 50k Baht), here its worth around 200k Baht (3k sterling) go figure......

[TBWG]

I don't get it.

Thai used cars seem to hold their resale value much better than in the US (not sure about other countries).

My four pennoth.

There is such a limited availability of second hand cars in LOS that it keeps resale value at an artificially high level.

Some cars I have seen for sale in Thailand you would have to pay to be taken away and scrapped in the UK. There are real bargains available in the UK market purely because of oversupply.

In Japan no one wants to be seen in a car over 3 years old, so they are all shunted off to NZ for ridiculous low prices. So maybe an opportunity there to hijack them to LOS and make a killing?

Humm now thats a thought

TBWG

[fxm88]

...for Low to Middle class Thai's the car, Pickup or what ever is seen as thier status, so when they sell they are selling from a status level, more than what the car is worth...

Ah-ha! So it's like sinsod for the car! One question though: as in a Thai-to-Thai wedding does the seller -- after gaining the face of a high-priced sale -- refund this sinsod to the buyer??

In Japan no one wants to be seen in a car over 3 years old, so they are all shunted off to NZ for ridiculous low prices...

This may have less to do with vanity and more to do with the high taxes and shaken that make older cars so expensive to licence.

Edited September 16, 2006 by fxm88

[think_too_mut]

In Japan no one wants to be seen in a car over 3 years old, so they are all shunted off to NZ for ridiculous low prices.

According to my Japanese colleague, it's more to do with technical inspection of the car for re-licensing.

First 3 years - no inspection. Then a major one, worth thousands of dollars.

Cars are cheap in Japan. IT people can buy a small car (Honda Jazz, for example) cash off a month's salary and still have enough money to live that month.

Just saw it yesterday, Toyota Hilux Surf, 55k km, 8000US$ asking price at a second hand dealership in Tokyo. That same car, shipped to Oz, would be 25-30K US$. I saw dealerships in Sydney asking 38-45K A$ for similar.

And, somebody said, 400K for a 10 years old car while somebody else bought a new pickup for 600K. Could be that pickup trucks are taxed differently and are disproportionaly cheaper than sedans.

[bkkmick]

I don't know about the price of second hand cars being 'artifically high'. I just paid off my second hand Volvo S80 which I bought for 1.7m in 2003.

I was thinking about selling it and buying something with 7 seats (got 2 young daughters) and was told that it's now worth 700k - what the heck happened?

Have to keep it now (I like it anyway).

Edited September 18, 2006 by bkkmick

[Plus]

I don't know of anything that interferes with market driven prices here.

There are plenty of Thai automagazines filled with ads for used cars, many print tables - make, model, year, price.

Why don't our expat motor guys clarify the issue?

[Donnyboy]

I don't get it.

Thai used cars seem to hold their resale value much better than in the US (not sure about other countries).

My four pennoth.

There is such a limited availability of second hand cars in LOS that it keeps resale value at an artificially high level.

Some cars I have seen for sale in Thailand you would have to pay to be taken away and scrapped in the UK. There are real bargains available in the UK market purely because of oversupply.

In Japan no one wants to be seen in a car over 3 years old, so they are all shunted off to NZ for ridiculous low prices. So maybe an opportunity there to hijack them to LOS and make a killing?

Humm now thats a thought

TBWG

yes, so true. About 20 years ago import restrictions and tax on used cars came off, and so heaps of cheap, low mileage, newish Japanese cars came flooding thru to NZ, so much so, it basically shut down our car assembley plants here. (Toyota, Nissan,Ford/Mazda) Hence, the prices of used cars plummeted and a killing was made by the importers and resellers. Alot of speedos were wound back to increase the value of the cars, even some cars written off in Japan came here and got "reborn" after a panel touch up. Kiwis never knew what a space saver tyre was until the Jap import came along, and those funny little wing mirrors mounted on the front

Before the imports came in, the boy racer crowd were mainly driving Escorts,Cortinas, Falcons and the like. After, it was turbo'd 4x4 Mazdas and Nissans etc,

I laugh when I see the prices of used cars here, esp compared to what prices you pay for at home.

I would love to import a S2000 Honda/ Mazda MX5, but the taxes .............

[Nordlys]

In Japan no one wants to be seen in a car over 3 years old, so they are all shunted off to NZ for ridiculous low prices.

According to my Japanese colleague, it's more to do with technical inspection of the car for re-licensing.

First 3 years - no inspection. Then a major one, worth thousands of dollars.

This is right. And it would cost anywhere from 40,000 Baht depending on vehicle size and engine displacement, just for the inspection alone, without having to service the car or change any spare parts to meet requirements necessary to pass the inspection. After the first 3 years a vehicle is required to receive inspection every two years or it will not be licensed or made to renew the mandatory liability insurance (without which you will be charged criminally if you drive in Japan). And every year after ten years. Depreciation will write off the value of most cars in Japan to zero after 6 - 8 years, and you have to have your car go through expensive inspection every year (if not every other year) while the car holds no or little value, therefore not too many old cars in Japan as compared to other countries but to say no one wants to be seen in a car 3 years old is an overstatement.

Cars are cheap in Japan. IT people can buy a small car (Honda Jazz, for example) cash off a month's salary and still have enough money to live that month.

I have recently traded in my company's ten years old, 400,000km Civic for 200K Baht when I bought Fortuner. In Japan, I probably have to pay 10 - 20K Baht to get rid of that car for a scrap (all new car prices in Japan these days includes mandatory scrapping + recycling tax). I can buy a pretty nice second hand car for that price in Japan or even a new K car smaller than Jazz or Yaris.

[teej]

I don't know of anything that interferes with market driven prices here.

There are plenty of Thai automagazines filled with ads for used cars, many print tables - make, model, year, price.

Why don't our expat motor guys clarify the issue?

Everybody here seems to be saying that its the Thais that over-value their cars, are greedy, etc. etc. etc... but i just had a look at the Expat Motors used cars for sale site, and I gotta say a lot of those "expat" car owners are selling over market value as well... hmm...

regarding second-hand prices for older cars: I suppose one could say that cars last longer here if taken care of properly than in say, the seasonal parts of the US or the UK... reason being, no winters, no snow, no salted roads to expedite rusting, no shrinking/expanding of sheet metal over 10 winters and summers, etc. etc. etc.... I've seen some 20+ year old cars here that you'd be hard pressed to keep in such condition in say, New York.

Edited September 18, 2006 by teej

[Thaipwriter]

The way to play the market here is to purchase a single owner, 8 - 12 month old Honda or Toyota. Keep it for 4 years and then get 70 % of your money back when you sell it.

Thats cheap motoring.

Folks in other countries have more money and can afford to take bigger losses when trade in time arrives.

Thai's in general have thier cars on credit and when it comes to selling day they aint giving it away and rightly so.

They strenghen thier own market with sensible but sometimes illogical actions, much better than in the UK where money falls of the value of cars at a horrific rate

[Japhrodisiac]

The way to play the market here is to purchase a single owner, 8 - 12 month old Honda or Toyota. Keep it for 4 years and then get 70 % of your money back when you sell it.

Thats cheap motoring.

Folks in other countries have more money and can afford to take bigger losses when trade in time arrives.

Thai's in general have thier cars on credit and when it comes to selling day they aint giving it away and rightly so.

They strenghen thier own market with sensible but sometimes illogical actions, much better than in the UK where money falls of the value of cars at a horrific rate

Good points, but, Thais often shoot themselves in the foot by having high priced second hand cars that generally look like crap at prices close enough to new cars that the second hand market suffers. Add in the poor rates for second-hand finance as opposed to what new dealers will offer and you can often get a new car for the same price after factoring in cost of borrowing.

[Charma]

IMO the main reason for this is that the second hand market is being supported right the way down the chain - until the cars literally disintegrate. In the west, cars are sent to the dump (often now at the owner's expense) at a much earlier stage and therefore the rest of the market slips down in price.

[lost_in_isaan]

IMO the main reason for this is that the second hand market is being supported right the way down the chain - until the cars literally disintegrate. In the west, cars are sent to the dump (often now at the owner's expense) at a much earlier stage and therefore the rest of the market slips down in price.

I think this is a good point. I think it also has something to do with the fitness inspections, if there are any, because I have seen some awfully shocking vehicles on the road. Cheap maintenance and lax regulation and policing make for a stronger used car market.

In New Zealand, for example, an older car would become to expensive to repair in order to meet the warrant of fitness requirements to keep it on the road. If you didn't have a warrant the police will hit you with big fines. In Thailand this is not so much of a problem..

[think_too_mut]

IMO the main reason for this is that the second hand market is being supported right the way down the chain - until the cars literally disintegrate. In the west, cars are sent to the dump (often now at the owner's expense) at a much earlier stage and therefore the rest of the market slips down in price.

If you are right, that would work in Australia too.

In Western Australia (Perth) and Northern Theritory (Darwin, Alice Springs) there are no requirements for any car inspection, ever (last time heard about WA was 10 yrs ago, might have changed).

One can drive anything that rolls...a tractor engine on a frame with wheels if you wish.

And second hand car prices are not holding their ground like in Thai, whatsoever. Sraps that still drive may be worth 100-150A$ but not more than that.

[fxm88]

What about flood damaged cars? In America, for example, these cars are covered by insurance as a total loss. Then they're sold as scrap (though sometimes they're "rebuilt and disguised as ordinary used cars with clean titles" by crooks).

Every place in Thailand has got the houses up on stilts, but I've never seen an elevated car port. When floods come, I'm sure not every car gets moved to higher ground in time to avoid damage. What happens to these cars?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/ma...s-106/index.htm

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4023619

http://trucks.about.com/od/autobuying/tp/flooded_cars.htm

[Kwarium]

What about flood damaged cars?

A Thai gave me some car buying advice last week.

"Watch out for Tsunami cars that are now in BKK!"

Some interesting comments in this thread, but no answers that work for me. I'm shopping for my first LOS car, thinking it might be a nice luxury for weekend trips out of BKK. I think using one in BKK would be a complete liability. If I'm now stuck in traffic, I leave the taxi and go the other way or grab a motocy! Probably a bad idea to do so with a car! But I digress...

First, used cars are everywhere! Always at exorbitant prices compared to new car prices. Depreciation has no Thai translation apparently! Farangs are quick to adjust their prices to going rates, but are cars actually 'going' at these prices? There are acres (1000s) of cars along Srinakarin Rd in East Bkk, none with prices posted. The sales people quote prices without even thinking about it. Are they so clever that they memorize them all?

The number of used car lots and cars has doubled in the last few years or less. The mom and pop open air furniture shop I used occasionally now sells used cars instead! Farang Motors or whatever that company is called has a huge new glass building ready to open across the street from a brand new Honda dealership.

Lots of money is being made on used cars! What causes the market to bear such high prices? Don't car shoppers see the chop shops where these cars are often rebuilt from wrecks or junk? Sometimes they are on the same property as the sales lot! I have seen bare frames on blocks become shiny pickup trucks over a months time.

So I'm looking for a private owner with a car they've owned and cared for personally. So far, even those have been less than honest. For example, I couldn't help but notice the wooden framed 'for sale' sign on top of the car was well weathered and that there were some spare parts and an extra set of tires and wheels inside the shophouse door of one seller. He stated clearly in Thai, that this was his car and it was one owner. My theory is that he buys and sells for a hobby. I wasn't even convinced enough to ask to see the book on the car.

I know it's a bit of a rant, but it's also my contribution to a thread that will hopefully help us all figure out what's going on with buying cars in Thailand.

PS-Got a good car for ~100,000?

[Rdrokit]

What about flood damaged cars?

A Thai gave me some car buying advice last week.

"Watch out for Tsunami cars that are now in BKK!"

Some interesting comments in this thread, but no answers that work for me. I'm shopping for my first LOS car, thinking it might be a nice luxury for weekend trips out of BKK. I think using one in BKK would be a complete liability. If I'm now stuck in traffic, I leave the taxi and go the other way or grab a motocy! Probably a bad idea to do so with a car! But I digress...

First, used cars are everywhere! Always at exorbitant prices compared to new car prices. Depreciation has no Thai translation apparently! Farangs are quick to adjust their prices to going rates, but are cars actually 'going' at these prices? There are acres (1000s) of cars along Srinakarin Rd in East Bkk, none with prices posted. The sales people quote prices without even thinking about it. Are they so clever that they memorize them all?

The number of used car lots and cars has doubled in the last few years or less. The mom and pop open air furniture shop I used occasionally now sells used cars instead! Farang Motors or whatever that company is called has a huge new glass building ready to open across the street from a brand new Honda dealership.

Lots of money is being made on used cars! What causes the market to bear such high prices? Don't car shoppers see the chop shops where these cars are often rebuilt from wrecks or junk? Sometimes they are on the same property as the sales lot! I have seen bare frames on blocks become shiny pickup trucks over a months time.

So I'm looking for a private owner with a car they've owned and cared for personally. So far, even those have been less than honest. For example, I couldn't help but notice the wooden framed 'for sale' sign on top of the car was well weathered and that there were some spare parts and an extra set of tires and wheels inside the shophouse door of one seller. He stated clearly in Thai, that this was his car and it was one owner. My theory is that he buys and sells for a hobby. I wasn't even convinced enough to ask to see the book on the car.

I know it's a bit of a rant, but it's also my contribution to a thread that will hopefully help us all figure out what's going on with buying cars in Thailand.

PS-Got a good car for ~100,000?

Not much for 100,000 except 10 year old cars. You have to remember that compared to other products sold in Thailand new cars are not cheap. A top of the line new truck will cost 700,000 baht or more. That's about $20,000 US. a Fortuna is over a million baht. That's alot of money for most Thais. 100,000 baht is about $2,700 US. You will not buy much in the states for $2,700. Same goes for Thailand.

[Nawtilus]

If you are right, that would work in Australia too.

In Western Australia (Perth) and Northern Theritory (Darwin, Alice Springs) there are no requirements for any car inspection, ever (last time heard about WA was 10 yrs ago, might have changed).

One can drive anything that rolls...a tractor engine on a frame with wheels if you wish.

And second hand car prices are not holding their ground like in Thai, whatsoever. Sraps that still drive may be worth 100-150A$ but not more than that.

There is vehicle inspections in the NT and if you think you could drive your description of a vehicle down Smith st, well I would like to see that.

[Kwarium]

Using the example of 10 year old cars, here are three random samples of cars currently for sale on www ads...

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, USA, $1,999 = ~76,000 Baht

http://www.automotive.com/1996/65/toyota/c...113/images.html

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, U.K., 2,399 = ~171,000 Baht

http://cars.yahoo.co.uk/resultsmidi_100354...mry,Before_2002

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, Thailand, 365,000 Baht = ~US$9,605

http://www.taladrod.com/Search/CarDet.aspx?cib=76343

I don't expect prices as low as in the car-centric US, but nearly 5 times more? And they're generally in worse condition maintenance wise here. Using baht as a scale to measure how much I want a car, it maxes out about 200k worth! Guess I'll keep riding the scooter to market and flying home to Udon for holidays!

BTW- Just had my little 4 year old 112cc mc redone at the factory service center. Rings, piston, valve, brakes, clutch, even some new plastic; all for 4,500 baht!

I love Thailand!

[Rdrokit]

Using the example of 10 year old cars, here are three random samples of cars currently for sale on www ads...

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, USA, $1,999 = ~76,000 Baht

http://www.automotive.com/1996/65/toyota/c...113/images.html

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, U.K., 2,399 = ~171,000 Baht

http://cars.yahoo.co.uk/resultsmidi_100354...mry,Before_2002

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, Thailand, 365,000 Baht = ~US$9,605

http://www.taladrod.com/Search/CarDet.aspx?cib=76343

I don't expect prices as low as in the car-centric US, but nearly 5 times more? And they're generally in worse condition maintenance wise here. Using baht as a scale to measure how much I want a car, it maxes out about 200k worth! Guess I'll keep riding the scooter to market and flying home to Udon for holidays!

BTW- Just had my little 4 year old 112cc mc redone at the factory service center. Rings, piston, valve, brakes, clutch, even some new plastic; all for 4,500 baht!

I love Thailand!

Try buying one of those Toyotas in the US or UK then ship them here and pay customs tax on them and you will find out buying one in Thailand is cheaper. I tried shipping one of my classic cars to Thailand. By the time I figured out shipping and customs it was 200% the value of the car. So I sold it and bought one in Thailand.

[Scenium11]

rDrokit is right. 100kb is a big difference for a lot of thais.

Don't forget also that Thai car market is rather new. You can't see so many cars from the 80s for example. 10 years ago, it was still a luxury to own a car (i mean a real car and not a pick-up). It is therefore historically a big market to reach people earning much less revenues.

Anyway, don't get mad about these high 2nd prices. That's just perfect for you when you sell your 1st hand car to buy a new one.

[nikster]

Using the example of 10 year old cars, here are three random samples of cars currently for sale on www ads...

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, USA, $1,999 = ~76,000 Baht

http://www.automotive.com/1996/65/toyota/c...113/images.html

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, U.K., 2,399 = ~171,000 Baht

http://cars.yahoo.co.uk/resultsmidi_100354...mry,Before_2002

10 year old 4 cyl Toyota Camry, Thailand, 365,000 Baht = ~US$9,605

http://www.taladrod.com/Search/CarDet.aspx?cib=76343

I don't expect prices as low as in the car-centric US, but nearly 5 times more? And they're generally in worse condition maintenance wise here. Using baht as a scale to measure how much I want a car, it maxes out about 200k worth! Guess I'll keep riding the scooter to market and flying home to Udon for holidays!

It really depends. Maybe you happen to have the extra 300k lying around on some bank account. In that case, might as well drive them around and enjoy them, and when the time comes to sell the car get them back. Yes, you vastly overpaid for that used car, but then, the next guy you sell it to will overpay just as much.

If you have some more lying around, you almost need to get a new car. My friend just bought a brand-new Triton 4WD 2.5l. The interior is not as plush as the Fortuner - BUT it's still an excellent car and cost him just under 600k. And it has insane gas mileage, it gets 14 - 15km / liter.

You are right about maintainance, the used cars in Thailand generally are in very bad shape. Cheap repairs cut both ways...

[nikster]

What about flood damaged cars?

First, used cars are everywhere! Always at exorbitant prices compared to new car prices. Depreciation has no Thai translation apparently!

PS-Got a good car for ~100,000?

First, get used to it: Used cars are insanely overpriced. Not just for farangs, in general. My wife's dad bought a 10 year old Suzuki for 400,000 Baht. It was a sweet car, but in very bad shape mechanically, we had to replace pretty much all expensive parts I can think of. From the steering wheel shaft to the auto transmission (50k!) to taking apart the entire engine and replacing some blown gasket (another 50k). And that was in 1 year of ownership.

For 500k Baht I would get a brand-new Toyota pick-up with 3 year warranty.

Does it make sense? No. But, this is Thailand.

Second, no you can't get a good car for 100k baht. No way, forget about it.

In fact, you can, but only if you invest 400k more and get a new car. That you can then sell in 2 years with almost no loss. So to play the market here, you have to get a new car, preferrably a pick-up. Or you buy a 1 year old car off a farang expat, that's even more efficient

[ps: in case you didn't read between the lines: thanks, dad, but please don't help us to buy a car again ]

Edited October 6, 2006 by nikster

[wilko]

I don't know of anything that interferes with market driven prices here.

There are plenty of Thai automagazines filled with ads for used cars, many print tables - make, model, year, price.

Why don't our expat motor guys clarify the issue?

Everybody here seems to be saying that its the Thais that over-value their cars, are greedy, etc. etc. etc... but i just had a look at the Expat Motors used cars for sale site, and I gotta say a lot of those "expat" car owners are selling over market value as well... hmm...

regarding second-hand prices for older cars: I suppose one could say that cars last longer here if taken care of properly than in say, the seasonal parts of the US or the UK... reason being, no winters, no snow, no salted roads to expedite rusting, no shrinking/expanding of sheet metal over 10 winters and summers, etc. etc. etc.... I've seen some 20+ year old cars here that you'd be hard pressed to keep in such condition in say, New York.

Little or no corrosion

Cheap repairs

Slack roadworthy laws

A low standard of living - anything that will start and move has a value

Cheap insurance, tax, running costs.....

All contribute

as a foot note I was shocked at how expensive secondhand cars were in Australia....or rather how well thety kept their price.