Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Nigeone]

They had the results before the samples were even taken , just like a person of interest.

Am I the only one reading too much into Andys quote from forensic expert that the results were very quick. Does that mean she maybe handled initial aspects and then another dept or persons dealt with comparisons etc and she was surprised how quick those results came back? As in ready in a hour or two? Any one else have a thought on this quoted comment from her.?

He said a "few hours"

According to him he was referring to the women on the stand who tested the DNA from the two suspects which then was compared and came back as a match. So, I think it clear he was surprised and not the experienced DNA tester whi knows how long a test takes.

There are usually a number of people involved in a Lab but on;y one witness chair.

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 15h15 hours ago

Koh Tao murder trial day 6 this morning forensics police lady witness from Bangkok who tested DNA from two accused against cigarettes etc.

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 15h15 hours ago

The forensics officer witness explained how surprisingly quick her whole DNA testing process was completed/result available within few hours

Well well JTJ, I really thought you weren't speaking to me!. First as far as I can make out it was only one expert ' woman' who testified and as you have put above both quotes involve a woman not a man.

As a further question to put out there ,but particularly to you as I know how you are so quick to comment on the various issues brought up on here, and to do so you must read diligently every post to maintain your position as chief defender of the RTP .

Can you explain why, hence my opening statement, you have still not replied and answered my questions regarding a few examples of flaws in this case. I know you have read them as you are intelligent and quite meticulous in your argument be it selective. I'm not going to repeat my post on here as you have already ridiculed another poster for alleged not being able to google to find something you have claimed but not produced so I will allow you the pleasure of finding my question to you and your ilk and look forward to your response. Don't worry it's only a few pages back although like I said I'm sure you have read it just you can't answer it. If you still haven't come back to me with suitable replies I will repost again for sure because I and many other sane people would like to see what you have to say. The next few days will be fine! And don't worry I won't conviently forget my obligations!

Once again, you are assuming things without basis. First, I have no idea what the man vs women comments are about since both my post and the one I am responding as well as Andy's only refers to the women's testimony. 2nd, I have no idea who you are and even as I type now, I didn't look at your screen name. Lastly, I am not going back to read or seek out your posts to address some theory you had or try to explain to you reality. If you want to ask me something then go ahead and ask and maybe I will answer if I see it. Despite your assumptions, I have read few posts here. I generally see the ones people have responded to one of my post but sometimes miss those if I get a lot of responses after that I generally just look at the last page of posts and if I see something I feel like responding I will. There are only a couple poster's whose posts I will stop and read because I think they may have something worthwhile to share. Others people I don't recall their names but sometimes know them just based on the thing they are harping about and their writing style.

Okay, I just scrolled up and looked at your screen name and I have no idea who you are. After I post, I will scroll up the page and look at your avatar and maybe that will job my memory but honestly, I don't generally look at who I am responding but just at their post. A few folks I can't help but remember that are vocal to me repeatedly or have a strange avatar but usually I tend to only remember the folks who are not on the theorist bandwagon and make reasonable, interesting or fact based posts. So, everything you assumed is wrong as well as me defending the RTP. Cops are corrupt all over and more so in less developed countries but it doesn't mean the people they arrest or are in jail are not guilty of what they are accused. NOTHING I have seen in this case would explain a reason for a frame up that would take a vast conspiracy to pull off including people outside the police department and including the prosecutors and judges who will see and review the evidence.

Oh your very very good aren't you. Do you really think that anyone, I repeat anyone believes what you have just wrote. You are selective at best and deliberately misleading at worse in trying ,as I said defending the Indefensible .

You don't need to know who I am or my background to answer my post and actually my post that you didn't answer, and I reiterate answer ,not read, as I'm sure you did read it but couldn't answer it. I know as the questions asked were impossible to answer without pouring scorn on your defense of the case.

As I've said you are quite clearly intelligent but sadly that's misplaced. Your performance actually reminds very much off what we're seeing in the trial with obvious wasting of time and stringing out the prosecution case which I would remind you has still !! not provided ANYTHING ! to involve the accused in the crime. Is that 8 days now and still nothing. Lots of talk but absolutely no scrap of evidence in this ,as you said, building of the foundations for this perfect case. Quote !! By are leader

[Nigeone]

Here we go JTJ. Answers please ! This time.

1 Why was the CCTV not inspected on the pier after the murders

2 Why is there no pictures kept of crime scene. Apparently the perfect case doesn't have a budget!

3 Why was the interviews not recorded or filmed

4 Why did the police claim the clothes found at scene of crime were in a pile, when pictures clearly show this was not the case

5 Why have the defense been denied the autopsy pictures

6 Why is CCTV footage from AC bar allowed to be not handed over

7 Why is the running man reported by police to be a Burmese while quite clearly beyond doubt it's not

8 Why haven't the defense been privy to the Quote, hundreds of hours of CCTV footage form all around the resort.

9 Why was the crime scene quite clearly compromised by many many people including a possible suspect

10 Why was DNA not properly collected,recorded and examined under international protocol.

11 Why was a DNA and police report of a suspect not provided to the Police investigating from there colleagues in Bangkok

12 Why are translators being scared off and nobody prepared to talk about a crime allegedly committed by 2 worthless Burmese

13 Why did the the Police investigator state that David died from a single wound when clearly there were multiple injuries.

14 Why no follow up on the alleged altercation in AC bar involving the deceased .

15 Why a complete change of direction overnight on case taken over by new police team

16 Why the statement saying there was no DNA on the 'bloodied ' hoe when pictures showed blood on it.

I could go on and on and many posters on here will have many other additions . I await your interesting replies JTJ.

And as a final footnote I for one don't thing anybody is worthless least off all the B2 but many Thais treat them as such.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Nigeone

[JohnThailandJohn]

Yes smedly you and I both seem to be having problems getting answers from JTJ and his mates regarding direct questions about

serious flaws in this case. I guess it's easier to answer small grammar or mistaken quotes by posters than direct questions based on facts. It's quite noticeable to most I would think and again calls into question the motivation behind the weak defense of the prosecutions case. I'm a very fair person and I don't think stupid but I'm really finding it hard to understand how obviously intelligent people are actually defending the indefensible . Whoever has done this I'm not sure , but my criticism is based purely on the case as presented up to now not about the innocence or not of the B2. I can of course give a opinion on that!!

If these muppets were to be shown CCTV footage of (who actually did the crime) they'd still deny it.

Nobody would be this silly. Be like denying a video of somebody that shows them in Bangkok at the time of the murders. You'd have to come up with comical ways of denying it like furniture looks different in video frames or the person in the video moves his arms when he walks just like a person on a video on the island moves his arms when he walks too so they must be the same guy or saying time stamps are forged or how the guy planned to go to the island to murder & rape and snuck out his window so the video wouldn't capture him and then got on a plane using a fake ID ....

Nobody would be this silly, would they????

Edited July 24, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[GOLDBUGGY]

Thats a great idea, a simple map of the soi's nearby with the relevant cctv cameras there would be great. We can then have a better understanding especially of the running man and the directions he was going and how near to the crime scene.

A timeline of the reports in the trial would also be good. We all know that the current reports we are getting even from those in the court room are unofficial and its only the judges transcript at the end of the trial that is taken as the true record of what was said. Is that transcript going to include what we've heard?? Interesting to keep tabs on this and see.

By the way, just returned after a 72 hour holiday due to my over zealous response to one of the shills, lets see how long I can stay before it happens again.

Been keeping up and am absolutely disgusted with the events taking place. Thank Christ the international press and organizations such as BBC are onto every aspect of this case. They'll not let go now.

It would probably help if you refrained from insulting people by calling them shills.

Now, Now, Ali G, maybe help if you stop intentionally provoking people.... ohhh by the way what time does the RTP Defenders Club open, is happy hour still from 5-7 or has that now stopped in light of recent events.

Well, since so many people have been poking a sharp stick in the eye of a Black Mamba Snake, and provoking him to join this make believe and made up world, where the majority people aren't even civil enough to reframe from Name Calling, I will make a few more comments and point out some more facts. Starting with the name "Defender of the RTP".

How can one respond to someone who after nearly one year doesn't even know who is on trial here? The RPT are not on trial here, nor is Thailand, the people on trial here are 2 Migrant Workers accused of a double Murder, Rape, and Robbery. They are the ones who need defending, and not the RTP. I have no connection to any police force in the world or anyone on this Island, that I did not even know existed a year ago. My opinions are strictly opinions which I try to base mostly on fact and not social media gossip, and my agenda is to shed some light on some twisted facts.

So what do you hope to accomplish by attacking certain people on this island and the police? To shut down tourism there? Did you ever stop and think what the end result would be if you were ever successful? Sure you may hurt some of the rich and more powerful on this Island, but they have enough money to lay back for a few years and wait for all this to blow over, or start another business elsewhere.

But what about the +1,000 Myanmar Migrate Workers on that Island who depend on these Tourist for their jobs? To feed not only themselves but their families back home.Without jobs you have forced them back into poverty in their own country and what they tried to escape from. What they paid good money to get away from.

In there lies the problem with you so called Do-gooders. Without thinking first and shooting your mouths off, they end up hurting the people they are trying to help far more then if they just kept their nose out of it. . .

[JohnThailandJohn]

Thats a great idea, a simple map of the soi's nearby with the relevant cctv cameras there would be great. We can then have a better understanding especially of the running man and the directions he was going and how near to the crime scene.

A timeline of the reports in the trial would also be good. We all know that the current reports we are getting even from those in the court room are unofficial and its only the judges transcript at the end of the trial that is taken as the true record of what was said. Is that transcript going to include what we've heard?? Interesting to keep tabs on this and see.

By the way, just returned after a 72 hour holiday due to my over zealous response to one of the shills, lets see how long I can stay before it happens again.

Been keeping up and am absolutely disgusted with the events taking place. Thank Christ the international press and organizations such as BBC are onto every aspect of this case. They'll not let go now.

It would probably help if you refrained from insulting people by calling them shills.

Now, Now, Ali G, maybe help if you stop intentionally provoking people.... ohhh by the way what time does the RTP Defenders Club open, is happy hour still from 5-7 or has that now stopped in light of recent events.

Well, since so many people have been poking a sharp stick in the eye of a Black Mamba Snake, and provoking him to join this make believe and made up world, where the majority people aren't even civil enough to reframe from Name Calling, I will make a few more comments and point out some more facts. Starting with the name "Defender of the RTP".

How can one respond to someone who after nearly one year doesn't even know who is on trial here? The RPT are not on trial here, nor is Thailand, the people on trial here are 2 Migrant Workers accused of a double Murder, Rape, and Robbery. They are the ones who need defending, and not the RTP. I have no connection to any police force in the world or anyone on this Island, that I did not even know existed a year ago. My opinions are strictly opinions which I try to base mostly on fact and not social media gossip, and my agenda is to shed some light on some twisted facts.

So what do you hope to accomplish by attacking certain people on this island and the police? To shut down tourism there? Did you ever stop and think what the end result would be if you were ever successful? Sure you may hurt some of the rich and more powerful on this Island, but they have enough money to lay back for a few years and wait for all this to blow over, or start another business elsewhere.

But what about the +1,000 Myanmar Migrate Workers on that Island who depend on these Tourist for their jobs? To feed not only themselves but their families back home.Without jobs you have forced them back into poverty in their own country and what they tried to escape from. What they paid good money to get away from.

In there lies the problem with you so called Do-gooders. Without thinking first and shooting your mouths off, they end up hurting the people they are trying to help far more then if they just kept their nose out of it. . .

Many of these people are not trying to help anyone and could care less about the victim familes, migrant workers or justice. They simply have an ax to grind with Thailand while others are simply just bored and caught up in trying to play internet detective. But make no mistake about it, many want to see harm come to Thais (especially those with power or money) and Thailand. They actually express their joy any time they think this has happened. Andy who they pretend is non biased is no different. This is a guy who not only has an issue with Thailand because of its treatment of Burma workers (who he dedicates his time to helping) but he is also facing serious jail time in Thailand because of those with powers filing a suit against him. As I have stated many times, the only people's who motives are above question is the victim's family when it comes to wanting to see the truth in this case.

However, I will assume you are like me and have no skin in this game or great emotion about any race or group and could care less who did this horrible crime but just want to see the right people stand trial and be convicted.

Edited July 24, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[GOLDBUGGY]

I always shake my head when I read something like "These Poor Boys!" "Take a look at them!" "They couldn't hurt a flea"!

Now let me point out a "Fact" to you all.

Myanmar, and where these so called "Innocent Boys" come from, has the Highest Murder Rate in all of Asia. All of Asia! The Myanmar Murder Rate is triple what it is in Thailand. Meaning by population for every 1 Murder in Thailand, there are 3 Murders in Myanmar. Thailand's Murder Rate is only slightly higher than the USA. But no small wonder they look at Myanmar Workers first when their is a murder committed nearby.

So could they commit murder? You bet your bottom dollar they could! And there own Government Statistics proves that and they can back that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[JohnThailandJohn]

Here we go JTJ. Answers please ! This time.

1 Why was the CCTV not inspected on the pier after the murders

2 Why is there no pictures kept of crime scene. Apparently the perfect case doesn't have a budget!

3 Why was the interviews not recorded or filmed

4 Why did the police claim the clothes found at scene of crime were in a pile, when pictures clearly show this was not the case

5 Why have the defense been denied the autopsy pictures

6 Why is CCTV footage from AC bar allowed to be not handed over

7 Why is the running man reported by police to be a Burmese while quite clearly beyond doubt it's not

8 Why haven't the defense been privy to the Quote, hundreds of hours of CCTV footage form all around the resort.

9 Why was the crime scene quite clearly compromised by many many people including a possible suspect

10 Why was DNA not properly collected,recorded and examined under international protocol.

11 Why was a DNA and police report of a suspect not provided to the Police investigating from there colleagues in Bangkok

12 Why are translators being scared off and nobody prepared to talk about a crime allegedly committed by 2 worthless Burmese

13 Why did the the Police investigator state that David died from a single wound when clearly there were multiple injuries.

14 Why no follow up on the alleged altercation in AC bar involving the deceased .

15 Why a complete change of direction overnight on case taken over by new police team

16 Why the statement saying there was no DNA on the 'bloodied ' hoe when pictures showed blood on it.

I could go on and on and many posters on here will have many other additions . I await your interesting replies JTJ.

And as a final footnote I for one don't thing anybody is worthless least off all the B2 but many Thais treat them as such.

Please provide the source of each thing you are stating as fact, so I can read it in context and consider the source, before speculating on these things you are claiming to be fact.

Right now the bulk of your questions would be like somebody asking you why you are stupid. Would,'t confirmation need to be shared that you are stupid first as well as what you are being stupid about?

Edited July 24, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[catsanddogs]

Yes smedly you and I both seem to be having problems getting answers from JTJ and his mates regarding direct questions aboutserious flaws in this case.

No idea what you want me to speculate about. I simply believe the two are guilty because I believe the DNA from the victim and scene is going to show it matched them and I don't believe a mass conspiracy took place to frame them and I believe the other evidence against them such as them being around the scene at the same time, victim phone outside their house, witness saying they gave the phone to him, their being on video buying the same cigarettes, their original lawyer form the embassy stating they confessed to him, outside police presence, while also saying they were abused by police all just ties it together. If the DNA comes into credible question, then I think the two should walk.

If you want me to answer questions about idiotic conspiracy theories you will have to catch me when I am on the mood for such nonsense. Other things like the crime scene bungling is not going to explain how these two DNA was gathered at the scene or how their semen was in one of the victims. Nor am I going to get into idiotic things about how the headsman family killed them and police are scared of them (same police who publicly said they were involved before clearing them as they did many people early on). IMO this is just stupid nonsense FOR SO MANY REASONS that have been mentioned over and over again these past months but ignored by those determined to believe it and I can only handle responding to it once in a while.

Nice to see a flash of emotion, of sorts, in your last eleven words. You really shouldn't believe everything you read about this case. Try coming from your gut feelings and see what pops up when your mind is nautral and open and unhindered by the pressures of the outside world.

[Nigeone]

Goldbuggy

How can one respond to someone who after nearly one year doesn't even know who is on trial here? The RPT are not on trial here, nor is Thailand, the people on trial here are 2 Migrant Workers accused of a double Murder, Rape, and Robbery. They are the ones who need defending, and not the RTP. I have no connection to any police force in the world or anyone on this Island, that I did not even know existed a year ago. My opinions are strictly opinions which I try to base mostly on fact and not social media gossip, and my agenda is to shed some light on some twisted facts.

Your very wrong with this statement. While sure the B2 are on trial so is the RTP and the Thai justice system. Everybody and I mean everybody has a story about extortion and cover ups and graft in these areas. So are you denying that extortion isn't carried out by RTP on a hourly basis and that these same authorities aren't responsible or turn a blind eye to most of the criminal activity in Thailand.

And as for for the poor workers in Kao Tao and other Islands do you really thing that the powers that be care about them one bit.

No to them it's just cheap labour from a compromised race who even after employment get deductions and have to pay for so many things that should be taken for granted. You didn't see the Sky reporter live interviewing a Burmese worker on KT. Saying everyone there has to pay to the mafia just to have the right to be there. No, the people running KT don't care one bit about Burmese workers.

Which makes me ask why would the same powers that be lean so heavily on translators and such like if it was Burmese involved.

That's illogical in every way.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Yes smedly you and I both seem to be having problems getting answers from JTJ and his mates regarding direct questions aboutserious flaws in this case.

No idea what you want me to speculate about. I simply believe the two are guilty because I believe the DNA from the victim and scene is going to show it matched them and I don't believe a mass conspiracy took place to frame them and I believe the other evidence against them such as them being around the scene at the same time, victim phone outside their house, witness saying they gave the phone to him, their being on video buying the same cigarettes, their original lawyer form the embassy stating they confessed to him, outside police presence, while also saying they were abused by police all just ties it together. If the DNA comes into credible question, then I think the two should walk.

If you want me to answer questions about idiotic conspiracy theories you will have to catch me when I am on the mood for such nonsense. Other things like the crime scene bungling is not going to explain how these two DNA was gathered at the scene or how their semen was in one of the victims. Nor am I going to get into idiotic things about how the headsman family killed them and police are scared of them (same police who publicly said they were involved before clearing them as they did many people early on). IMO this is just stupid nonsense FOR SO MANY REASONS that have been mentioned over and over again these past months but ignored by those determined to believe it and I can only handle responding to it once in a while.

Nice to see a flash of emotion, of sorts, in your last eleven words. You really shouldn't believe everything you read about this case. Try coming from your gut feelings and see what pops up when your mind is nautral and open and unhindered by the pressures of the outside world.

I will keep it in mind. This should be included with jury instruction in criminal cases .. don't concern yourself with logic and facts instead go with your gut.

And as an FYI, Your gut is wrong as there was not emotion in my post, I used caps to highlight a point.

Edited July 24, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[happy Joe]

I always shake my head when I read something like "These Poor Boys!" "Take a look at them!" "They couldn't hurt a flea"!

Now let me point out a "Fact" to you all.

Myanmar, and where these so called "Innocent Boys" come from, has the Highest Murder Rate in all of Asia. All of Asia! The Myanmar Murder Rate is triple what it is in Thailand. Meaning by population for every 1 Murder in Thailand, there are 3 Murders in Myanmar. Thailand's Murder Rate is only slightly higher than the USA. But no small wonder they look at Myanmar Workers first when their is a murder committed nearby.

So could they commit murder? You bet your bottom dollar they could! And there own Government Statistics proves that and they can back that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Congratulations, but you are wasting your energy.

The followers of the conspiracy theory still contesting the statistics.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Another one of my favorite regular posts here is "My Wife(brother sister, friend, or cousin) is Thai and she thinks the 2 accused didn't do these crimes.

What makes you think for even one second that these people are privy to certain information that we don't have? They are subject to the same Social Media Networks, just like most of you, but this time in Thai. Also where all these Spin Doctors creating doubt through false information to cast a Web to catch Fools in it.

Most Thais I know are much more concerned with Rice and Rubber Prices then they are with some Murder in Tim-Buck-To involving Farangs. ,

[catsanddogs]

Thats a great idea, a simple map of the soi's nearby with the relevant cctv cameras there would be great. We can then have a better understanding especially of the running man and the directions he was going and how near to the crime scene.

A timeline of the reports in the trial would also be good. We all know that the current reports we are getting even from those in the court room are unofficial and its only the judges transcript at the end of the trial that is taken as the true record of what was said. Is that transcript going to include what we've heard?? Interesting to keep tabs on this and see.

By the way, just returned after a 72 hour holiday due to my over zealous response to one of the shills, lets see how long I can stay before it happens again.

Been keeping up and am absolutely disgusted with the events taking place. Thank Christ the international press and organizations such as BBC are onto every aspect of this case. They'll not let go now.

It would probably help if you refrained from insulting people by calling them shills.

Now, Now, Ali G, maybe help if you stop intentionally provoking people.... ohhh by the way what time does the RTP Defenders Club open, is happy hour still from 5-7 or has that now stopped in light of recent events.

Well, since so many people have been poking a sharp stick in the eye of a Black Mamba Snake, and provoking him to join this make believe and made up world, where the majority people aren't even civil enough to reframe from Name Calling, I will make a few more comments and point out some more facts. Starting with the name "Defender of the RTP".

How can one respond to someone who after nearly one year doesn't even know who is on trial here? The RPT are not on trial here, nor is Thailand, the people on trial here are 2 Migrant Workers accused of a double Murder, Rape, and Robbery. They are the ones who need defending, and not the RTP. I have no connection to any police force in the world or anyone on this Island, that I did not even know existed a year ago. My opinions are strictly opinions which I try to base mostly on fact and not social media gossip, and my agenda is to shed some light on some twisted facts.

So what do you hope to accomplish by attacking certain people on this island and the police? To shut down tourism there? Did you ever stop and think what the end result would be if you were ever successful? Sure you may hurt some of the rich and more powerful on this Island, but they have enough money to lay back for a few years and wait for all this to blow over, or start another business elsewhere.

But what about the +1,000 Myanmar Migrate Workers on that Island who depend on these Tourist for their jobs? To feed not only themselves but their families back home.Without jobs you have forced them back into poverty in their own country and what they tried to escape from. What they paid good money to get away from.

In there lies the problem with you so called Do-gooders. Without thinking first and shooting your mouths off, they end up hurting the people they are trying to help far more then if they just kept their nose out of it. . .

What a load of bl**dy bo**ocks. Glad it's betdime in my part of the world.

[ffaarraanngg]

I always shake my head when I read something like "These Poor Boys!" "Take a look at them!" "They couldn't hurt a flea"!

Now let me point out a "Fact" to you all.

Myanmar, and where these so called "Innocent Boys" come from, has the Highest Murder Rate in all of Asia. All of Asia! The Myanmar Murder Rate is triple what it is in Thailand. Meaning by population for every 1 Murder in Thailand, there are 3 Murders in Myanmar. Thailand's Murder Rate is only slightly higher than the USA. But no small wonder they look at Myanmar Workers first when their is a murder committed nearby.

So could they commit murder? You bet your bottom dollar they could! And there own Government Statistics proves that and they can back that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

These deaths are predominantly because of internal civil wars ... just as the high numbers in Thailand are due to the unrest in the south.

[ffaarraanngg]

I recommend to do this if you want peace and quiet from utter ridiculous comments.

[catsanddogs]

Here we go JTJ. Answers please ! This time.

1 Why was the CCTV not inspected on the pier after the murders

2 Why is there no pictures kept of crime scene. Apparently the perfect case doesn't have a budget!

3 Why was the interviews not recorded or filmed

4 Why did the police claim the clothes found at scene of crime were in a pile, when pictures clearly show this was not the case

5 Why have the defense been denied the autopsy pictures

6 Why is CCTV footage from AC bar allowed to be not handed over

7 Why is the running man reported by police to be a Burmese while quite clearly beyond doubt it's not

8 Why haven't the defense been privy to the Quote, hundreds of hours of CCTV footage form all around the resort.

9 Why was the crime scene quite clearly compromised by many many people including a possible suspect

10 Why was DNA not properly collected,recorded and examined under international protocol.

11 Why was a DNA and police report of a suspect not provided to the Police investigating from there colleagues in Bangkok

12 Why are translators being scared off and nobody prepared to talk about a crime allegedly committed by 2 worthless Burmese

13 Why did the the Police investigator state that David died from a single wound when clearly there were multiple injuries.

14 Why no follow up on the alleged altercation in AC bar involving the deceased .

15 Why a complete change of direction overnight on case taken over by new police team

16 Why the statement saying there was no DNA on the 'bloodied ' hoe when pictures showed blood on it.

I could go on and on and many posters on here will have many other additions . I await your interesting replies JTJ.

And as a final footnote I for one don't thing anybody is worthless least off all the B2 but many Thais treat them as such.

Please provide the source of each thing you are stating as fact, so I can read it in context and consider the source, before speculating on these things you are claiming to be fact.

Right now the bulk of your questions would be like somebody asking you why you are stupid. Would,'t confirmation need to be shared that you are stupid first as well as what you are being stupid about?

God.

[Nigeone]

Here we go JTJ. Answers please ! This time.

1 Why was the CCTV not inspected on the pier after the murders

2 Why is there no pictures kept of crime scene. Apparently the perfect case doesn't have a budget!

3 Why was the interviews not recorded or filmed

4 Why did the police claim the clothes found at scene of crime were in a pile, when pictures clearly show this was not the case

5 Why have the defense been denied the autopsy pictures

6 Why is CCTV footage from AC bar allowed to be not handed over

7 Why is the running man reported by police to be a Burmese while quite clearly beyond doubt it's not

8 Why haven't the defense been privy to the Quote, hundreds of hours of CCTV footage form all around the resort.

9 Why was the crime scene quite clearly compromised by many many people including a possible suspect

10 Why was DNA not properly collected,recorded and examined under international protocol.

11 Why was a DNA and police report of a suspect not provided to the Police investigating from there colleagues in Bangkok

12 Why are translators being scared off and nobody prepared to talk about a crime allegedly committed by 2 worthless Burmese

13 Why did the the Police investigator state that David died from a single wound when clearly there were multiple injuries.

14 Why no follow up on the alleged altercation in AC bar involving the deceased .

15 Why a complete change of direction overnight on case taken over by new police team

16 Why the statement saying there was no DNA on the 'bloodied ' hoe when pictures showed blood on it.

I could go on and on and many posters on here will have many other additions . I await your interesting replies JTJ.

And as a final footnote I for one don't thing anybody is worthless least off all the B2 but many Thais treat them as such.

Please provide the source of each thing you are stating as fact, so I can read it in context and consider the source, before speculating on these things you are claiming to fact.

Right now the bulk of your questions would be like somebody asking you why you are stupid. Would,'t confirmation need to be shared that you are stupid first as well as what you are being stupid about?

Wow... You know I really expected that response. As I've said you are very good and obviously intelligent but

To quote your ridicule of another poster when you stated they could look up the subject as it's easy to source the said information I will let you. Tell you what. Why don't you go through the issues from 1 to 16 and discount them based on your information and quotes. And as for the stupid is stupid isn't scenario that's not a very good analogy is it. All the issues have been confirmed in court or otherwise I'm happy for you to disprove my list. How about that. I'm committed to wanting to see a true and honest case regardless of the outcome and have taken the trouble to list these matters. If you think they are so wrong or flawed please answer them with alternate suggestions .

And as a further footnote as I see it your whole case rest on the DNA. If you couldn't be bothered or don't want to try!! and answer my 1 to 16 list at least read up and take in how DNA is collected ,recorded stored and analysed and then how it's interpreted into a criminal case. It will I feel make interesting reading for you as it's quite clear you don't fully understand the possible insignificance of said DNA.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Another one of my favorite regular posts here is "My Wife(brother sister, friend, or cousin) is Thai and she thinks the 2 accused didn't do these crimes.

What makes you think for even one second that these people are privy to certain information that we don't have? They are subject to the same Social Media Networks, just like most of you, but this time in Thai. Also where all these Spin Doctors creating doubt through false information to cast a Web to catch Fools in it.

Most Thais I know are much more concerned with Rice and Rubber Prices then they are with some Murder in Tim-Buck-To involving Farangs. ,

Well let me do the same ... unlike on this forum, every Thai friend I know who believed in a cover-up no longer does and are now able to admit they are just angry at the police corruption and those in power being able to get away with things. They thought this was going to be a case that showed the world their corruption. I actually understand their frustration and anger and don't deny their reasons but at least they calmed down and realized this isn't likely an example of these things. No different in the US were those with money and/or power have a different set of justice and where police shoot and kill unarmed blacks at an alarming rate but it doesn't mean every shooting is bad despite some people wanting to believe this and even trying to make every shooting into criminal case. But again, understand the feeling of many inner city people as they have had enough but they lose credibility when they take every shooting and try to turn it into a cop being a cold blooded murder.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Here we go JTJ. Answers please ! This time.

1 Why was the CCTV not inspected on the pier after the murders

2 Why is there no pictures kept of crime scene. Apparently the perfect case doesn't have a budget!

3 Why was the interviews not recorded or filmed

4 Why did the police claim the clothes found at scene of crime were in a pile, when pictures clearly show this was not the case

5 Why have the defense been denied the autopsy pictures

6 Why is CCTV footage from AC bar allowed to be not handed over

7 Why is the running man reported by police to be a Burmese while quite clearly beyond doubt it's not

8 Why haven't the defense been privy to the Quote, hundreds of hours of CCTV footage form all around the resort.

9 Why was the crime scene quite clearly compromised by many many people including a possible suspect

10 Why was DNA not properly collected,recorded and examined under international protocol.

11 Why was a DNA and police report of a suspect not provided to the Police investigating from there colleagues in Bangkok

12 Why are translators being scared off and nobody prepared to talk about a crime allegedly committed by 2 worthless Burmese

13 Why did the the Police investigator state that David died from a single wound when clearly there were multiple injuries.

14 Why no follow up on the alleged altercation in AC bar involving the deceased .

15 Why a complete change of direction overnight on case taken over by new police team

16 Why the statement saying there was no DNA on the 'bloodied ' hoe when pictures showed blood on it.

I could go on and on and many posters on here will have many other additions . I await your interesting replies JTJ.

And as a final footnote I for one don't thing anybody is worthless least off all the B2 but many Thais treat them as such.

Please provide the source of each thing you are stating as fact, so I can read it in context and consider the source, before speculating on these things you are claiming to fact.

Right now the bulk of your questions would be like somebody asking you why you are stupid. Would,'t confirmation need to be shared that you are stupid first as well as what you are being stupid about?

Wow... You know I really expected that response.

So then why go through all the trouble without providing the links?

Why don't you try taking 1 or 2 of your claims with the source link and start there instead of starting with 16 questions.

Edit: You are asking me to take the time to respond to you about specific things you are claiming, I don't think it unreasonable at all to have you provide links to back up what you are saying so I can see the source and context. Glancing at your question there seemed to be a number of them that you appear to be stating things as fact that are not known facts and others just wrong but you are welcome to provide the source and set me straight but I am certainly not going to do searches on a dozen plus questions to show many are BS questions to begin with.

Edited July 24, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[ffaarraanngg]

Here we go JTJ. Answers please ! This time.

1 Why was the CCTV not inspected on the pier after the murders

2 Why is there no pictures kept of crime scene. Apparently the perfect case doesn't have a budget!

3 Why was the interviews not recorded or filmed

4 Why did the police claim the clothes found at scene of crime were in a pile, when pictures clearly show this was not the case

5 Why have the defense been denied the autopsy pictures

6 Why is CCTV footage from AC bar allowed to be not handed over

7 Why is the running man reported by police to be a Burmese while quite clearly beyond doubt it's not

8 Why haven't the defense been privy to the Quote, hundreds of hours of CCTV footage form all around the resort.

9 Why was the crime scene quite clearly compromised by many many people including a possible suspect

10 Why was DNA not properly collected,recorded and examined under international protocol.

11 Why was a DNA and police report of a suspect not provided to the Police investigating from there colleagues in Bangkok

12 Why are translators being scared off and nobody prepared to talk about a crime allegedly committed by 2 worthless Burmese

13 Why did the the Police investigator state that David died from a single wound when clearly there were multiple injuries.

14 Why no follow up on the alleged altercation in AC bar involving the deceased .

15 Why a complete change of direction overnight on case taken over by new police team

16 Why the statement saying there was no DNA on the 'bloodied ' hoe when pictures showed blood on it.

I could go on and on and many posters on here will have many other additions . I await your interesting replies JTJ.

And as a final footnote I for one don't thing anybody is worthless least off all the B2 but many Thais treat them as such.

Please provide the source of each thing you are stating as fact, so I can read it in context and consider the source, before speculating on these things you are claiming to be fact.

Right now the bulk of your questions would be like somebody asking you why you are stupid. Would,'t confirmation need to be shared that you are stupid first as well as what you are being stupid about?

God.

[catsanddogs]

Yes smedly you and I both seem to be having problems getting answers from JTJ and his mates regarding direct questions aboutserious flaws in this case.

No idea what you want me to speculate about. I simply believe the two are guilty because I believe the DNA from the victim and scene is going to show it matched them and I don't believe a mass conspiracy took place to frame them and I believe the other evidence against them such as them being around the scene at the same time, victim phone outside their house, witness saying they gave the phone to him, their being on video buying the same cigarettes, their original lawyer form the embassy stating they confessed to him, outside police presence, while also saying they were abused by police all just ties it together. If the DNA comes into credible question, then I think the two should walk.

If you want me to answer questions about idiotic conspiracy theories you will have to catch me when I am on the mood for such nonsense. Other things like the crime scene bungling is not going to explain how these two DNA was gathered at the scene or how their semen was in one of the victims. Nor am I going to get into idiotic things about how the headsman family killed them and police are scared of them (same police who publicly said they were involved before clearing them as they did many people early on). IMO this is just stupid nonsense FOR SO MANY REASONS that have been mentioned over and over again these past months but ignored by those determined to believe it and I can only handle responding to it once in a while.

Nice to see a flash of emotion, of sorts, in your last eleven words. You really shouldn't believe everything you read about this case. Try coming from your gut feelings and see what pops up when your mind is nautral and open and unhindered by the pressures of the outside world.

I will keep it in mind. This should be included with jury instruction in criminal cases .. don't concern yourself with logic and facts instead go with your gut.

And as an FYI, Your gut is wrong as there was not emotion in my post, I used caps to highlight a point.

Clearly you didn't read my post well enough to understand what I was saying. Bye for good.

[loonodingle]

I always shake my head when I read something like "These Poor Boys!" "Take a look at them!" "They couldn't hurt a flea"!

Now let me point out a "Fact" to you all.

Myanmar, and where these so called "Innocent Boys" come from, has the Highest Murder Rate in all of Asia. All of Asia! The Myanmar Murder Rate is triple what it is in Thailand. Meaning by population for every 1 Murder in Thailand, there are 3 Murders in Myanmar. Thailand's Murder Rate is only slightly higher than the USA. But no small wonder they look at Myanmar Workers first when their is a murder committed nearby.

So could they commit murder? You bet your bottom dollar they could! And there own Government Statistics proves that and they can back that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Desperate measures from a person who is struggling to stack it up.

More likely to be killed In the Bahamas. Twice as likely ... doesnt mean you right the whole race off as murderer's. Really that's the most tosh I have read all day.

You could do with a weeks holiday for your racist comments.

God give me strength.

Edit.... And we know the 3 times tables i understand you want us to know you are capable too.

Edited July 24, 2015 by loonodingle

[JohnThailandJohn]

I always shake my head when I read something like "These Poor Boys!" "Take a look at them!" "They couldn't hurt a flea"!

Now let me point out a "Fact" to you all.

Myanmar, and where these so called "Innocent Boys" come from, has the Highest Murder Rate in all of Asia. All of Asia! The Myanmar Murder Rate is triple what it is in Thailand. Meaning by population for every 1 Murder in Thailand, there are 3 Murders in Myanmar. Thailand's Murder Rate is only slightly higher than the USA. But no small wonder they look at Myanmar Workers first when their is a murder committed nearby.

So could they commit murder? You bet your bottom dollar they could! And there own Government Statistics proves that and they can back that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Desperate measures from a person who is struggling to stack it up.

More likely to be killed In the Bahamas. Twice as likely ... doesnt mean you right the whole race off as murderer's. Really that's the most tosh I have read all day.

You could do with a weeks holiday for your racist comments.

God give me strength.

Given the area they come from in Myanmar has seen some of the worst violence in the country and that the army there is widely known to use rape as s means to punish and control, it wouldn't be out of line to consider they have at minimum likely seen a great deal of violence against people.

[fritzzz25]

Thats a great idea, a simple map of the soi's nearby with the relevant cctv cameras there would be great. We can then have a better understanding especially of the running man and the directions he was going and how near to the crime scene.

A timeline of the reports in the trial would also be good. We all know that the current reports we are getting even from those in the court room are unofficial and its only the judges transcript at the end of the trial that is taken as the true record of what was said. Is that transcript going to include what we've heard?? Interesting to keep tabs on this and see.

By the way, just returned after a 72 hour holiday due to my over zealous response to one of the shills, lets see how long I can stay before it happens again.

Been keeping up and am absolutely disgusted with the events taking place. Thank Christ the international press and organizations such as BBC are onto every aspect of this case. They'll not let go now.

It would probably help if you refrained from insulting people by calling them shills.

Now, Now, Ali G, maybe help if you stop intentionally provoking people.... ohhh by the way what time does the RTP Defenders Club open, is happy hour still from 5-7 or has that now stopped in light of recent events.

Well, since so many people have been poking a sharp stick in the eye of a Black Mamba Snake, and provoking him to join this make believe and made up world, where the majority people aren't even civil enough to reframe from Name Calling, I will make a few more comments and point out some more facts. Starting with the name "Defender of the RTP".

How can one respond to someone who after nearly one year doesn't even know who is on trial here? The RPT are not on trial here, nor is Thailand, the people on trial here are 2 Migrant Workers accused of a double Murder, Rape, and Robbery. They are the ones who need defending, and not the RTP. I have no connection to any police force in the world or anyone on this Island, that I did not even know existed a year ago. My opinions are strictly opinions which I try to base mostly on fact and not social media gossip, and my agenda is to shed some light on some twisted facts.

So what do you hope to accomplish by attacking certain people on this island and the police? To shut down tourism there? Did you ever stop and think what the end result would be if you were ever successful? Sure you may hurt some of the rich and more powerful on this Island, but they have enough money to lay back for a few years and wait for all this to blow over, or start another business elsewhere.

But what about the +1,000 Myanmar Migrate Workers on that Island who depend on these Tourist for their jobs? To feed not only themselves but their families back home.Without jobs you have forced them back into poverty in their own country and what they tried to escape from. What they paid good money to get away from.

In there lies the problem with you so called Do-gooders. Without thinking first and shooting your mouths off, they end up hurting the people they are trying to help far more then if they just kept their nose out of it. . .

The INVESTIGATION conducted by the RTP is on trial here. And what FACTS can you base your opinions on? Have you got the police file in your hands? The FACTS to base your opinion on, are going to be statements / evidence that is presented to the court and ACCEPTED as fact. Until then, your opinions are like an ar$e-hole..... everyone has one and nobody else's is as beautiful as yours.....

Edited July 24, 2015 by fritzzz25

[fritzzz25]

Another one of my favorite regular posts here is "My Wife(brother sister, friend, or cousin) is Thai and she thinks the 2 accused didn't do these crimes.

What makes you think for even one second that these people are privy to certain information that we don't have? They are subject to the same Social Media Networks, just like most of you, but this time in Thai. Also where all these Spin Doctors creating doubt through false information to cast a Web to catch Fools in it.

Most Thais I know are much more concerned with Rice and Rubber Prices then they are with some Murder in Tim-Buck-To involving Farangs. ,

Well let me do the same ... unlike on this forum, every Thai friend I know who believed in a cover-up no longer does and are now able to admit they are just angry at the police corruption and those in power being able to get away with things. They thought this was going to be a case that showed the world their corruption. I actually understand their frustration and anger and don't deny their reasons but at least they calmed down and realized this isn't likely an example of these things. No different in the US were those with money and/or power have a different set of justice and where police shoot and kill unarmed blacks at an alarming rate but it doesn't mean every shooting is bad despite some people wanting to believe this and even trying to make every shooting into criminal case. But again, understand the feeling of many inner city people as they have had enough but they lose credibility when they take every shooting and try to turn it into a cop being a cold blooded murder.

So your one and only friend has been brainwashed to think like you.

[loonodingle]

I always shake my head when I read something like "These Poor Boys!" "Take a look at them!" "They couldn't hurt a flea"!

Now let me point out a "Fact" to you all.

Myanmar, and where these so called "Innocent Boys" come from, has the Highest Murder Rate in all of Asia. All of Asia! The Myanmar Murder Rate is triple what it is in Thailand. Meaning by population for every 1 Murder in Thailand, there are 3 Murders in Myanmar. Thailand's Murder Rate is only slightly higher than the USA. But no small wonder they look at Myanmar Workers first when their is a murder committed nearby.

So could they commit murder? You bet your bottom dollar they could! And there own Government Statistics proves that and they can back that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Desperate measures from a person who is struggling to stack it up.

More likely to be killed In the Bahamas. Twice as likely ... doesnt mean you right the whole race off as murderer's. Really that's the most tosh I have read all day.

You could do with a weeks holiday for your racist comments.

God give me strength.

Given the area they come from in Myanmar has seen some of the worst violence in the country and that the army there is widely known to use rape as s means to punish and control, it wouldn't be out of line to consider they have at minimum likely seen a great deal of violence against people.

You and your racist sidekick could do with a spell in the sin bin. I hope a mods reading your malicious and libelous rants. If your theory was correctly every person who witnesses a murder goes and and kills someone then. Ridiculous absolutely Ridiculous. This thread has sunken to a new low...

[JohnThailandJohn]

I always shake my head when I read something like "These Poor Boys!" "Take a look at them!" "They couldn't hurt a flea"!

Now let me point out a "Fact" to you all.

Myanmar, and where these so called "Innocent Boys" come from, has the Highest Murder Rate in all of Asia. All of Asia! The Myanmar Murder Rate is triple what it is in Thailand. Meaning by population for every 1 Murder in Thailand, there are 3 Murders in Myanmar. Thailand's Murder Rate is only slightly higher than the USA. But no small wonder they look at Myanmar Workers first when their is a murder committed nearby.

So could they commit murder? You bet your bottom dollar they could! And there own Government Statistics proves that and they can back that up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Desperate measures from a person who is struggling to stack it up.

More likely to be killed In the Bahamas. Twice as likely ... doesnt mean you right the whole race off as murderer's. Really that's the most tosh I have read all day.

You could do with a weeks holiday for your racist comments.

God give me strength.

Given the area they come from in Myanmar has seen some of the worst violence in the country and that the army there is widely known to use rape as s means to punish and control, it wouldn't be out of line to consider they have at minimum likely seen a great deal of violence against people.

You and your racist sidekick could do with a spell in the sin bin. I hope a mods reading your malicious and libelous rants. If your theory was correctly every person who witnesses a murder goes and and kills someone then. Ridiculous absolutely Ridiculous. This thread has sunken to a new low...

Your post makes no sense. First, how is anything I said a "malicious and libelous rants"? Second, where did I indicate witnessing a violent crime would make somebody commit a violent crime?

The fact is their country has some of the worst human rights record on the planet and they were from an area where some of the worst violence has taken place. I am not talking about crime but genocide. It is also widely known and reported that the military there often commit rape against it own citizens.

However, it is worth considering these two may have been effected by what happened to them in their own country. Maybe nothing happened, maybe things did and made them pacifists or maybe it lowered their view on the seriousness of rape and murder. All I said is, "it wouldn't be out of line to consider", this.

So, please either set aside your faux outrage or calm down and read what I wrote and do a little bit of research on the area in the country they came from. I added a couple links below Didn't read them but might give you a better understanding of where these two came from and what they "might" have experienced.

http://aidleap.org/2014/04/10/rakhine-crisis-burma-myanmar-sitrep/

http://time.com/6429/burma-rape-in-kachin/

http://endgenocide.org/conflict-areas/burma/

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/17/dispatches-scathing-verdict-burmas-stalled-reforms

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Burma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhine_State#2012_Rakhine_State_riots

Edited July 24, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am so clad you forced me back so that I can share another true story with you.

But first I need to get your honest opinion on something that bothers me and thus requires another short story first. There is a short quiz at the end so please pay attention.

You are at a Bar with a friend and you spot another mate walking by. So you call him over for a beer and he joins you. After a couple of Beers this new friend tells you that he has his swim suit under his shorts and he was on his way to the beach for a swim. But he forgot to leave his Mobile Phone at home and wonders if you can hold it for him as he doesn't want to leave it in his shorts while swimming, on fears it may be stolen.

You agree to hold his Mobile Phone but tell him you are heading to Smitty's Bar, and he agrees to me you there later. At this new Bar you remembered you forgot to call the wife and tell her you will be late, but you didn't bring you own mobile phone with you. So you decide to try your friends mobile phone to make this quick call but his mobile phone doesn't seem to work. Now here is the quiz:

A) Do you then go to the 7-11 just up the street and buy a phone card to try and make this call again to your wife with your friends mobile phone?

Do you just put down your friends mobile phone and forget about it and give it back to him when he shows up?

C) Do you just refuse to take your friends mobile phone as you are suspicious something is wrong?

Well the correct answer to this quiz is "None of the Above". The correct answer is that you then put your friends mobile phone in a small plastic bag, zip up this bag, and then smash it to tiny pieces with a hammer. Then after you have done that you walk behind the Bar and throw it all in the bushes.

Does this sound ridiculous and unbelievable?

Well not according to media where it was reported that the 2 of the Prosecution Witnesses gave sworn testimony that they were given this mobile phone by one of the accused, and when it did not work they put it in a small plastic bag and then smashed,with a hammer, and then later threw it out behind there living place. A mobile phone that was perhaps worth 2 months of their wages?

So if it is so ridiculous for them to do such a thing, then why did they say they did that? Consider also that these 2 witnesses where also good friends of the accused, and also room mates for perhaps 2 years, and would not want any hard to come to there friends. A plausible explanation is that when they heard there dear friends were suspects, or even arrested by then, they suspected (or knew) it was David Millers Mobile Phone.

So to try and protect their friends, which they knew far better than any of us here, they smashed David's Mobile phone into small pieces, so it may not be proven to belong to him, and threw it in some nearby bush. This may never had been know if it weren't for 1 of the accused, who admitted to these crimes, and told Police what he did with David Millers Mobile Phone. Which then tracked them to these guys who tried to destroy the evidence.

So it is so interesting to note some many people here defending the accused, when they never met them and didn't know a single thing about them before these crimes, compared to close friends of both of the accused, who knew both of them very well and were probably also room mates for a couple of years, trying to destroy evidence for their friends so they could not be linked to these murders. Which tells me they must have thought they did it!

[BritTim]

Here is an interesting news report with some new discrepancies:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173235/Catalogue-police-blunders-including-failure-investigate-evidence-chase-suspects-revealed-court-judge-doubts-case-conclusive-outcome.html

The main gist of the article is that almost nothing was investigated and Investigating officer Cherdpong Chiewpreecha knows next to nothing about the case.

I can understand why the RTP would want to claim no investigation inside AC Bar. If they said an investigation occurred, they would need to answer questions about it. However, some of the points Cherdpong expressed ignorance about were quite unbelievable.

Is the prosecution trying deliberately to lose? If so, has a deal been struck (maybe even with the Burmese kids themselves) to ensure they are found not guilty if they promise to keep what they know to themselves? Any other possibilities?

[Nigeone]

JTJ. I find it so amusing that when it suits your agenda you can find links to what ever you want but when backed into a corner you try and push it back and try and deflect the questions. I've got you sussed and you won't win sorry!! I'm not going to put you on ignore although perhaps I should but somebody has to give you a rough ride if only for all the good honest people on here outraged by this case and its investigation. What you have to realise is people here aren't stupid and are not going to lie down and listen to your agenda ridden garbage. Someone called you out just a few posts back and you denied any emotion and quite honestly I believe you when you said there was none in your post. Your a professional at what your doing but without credibility or integrity . But that doesn't matter does it because when this over you will melt into the net and reappear one day without conscience or remorse.What you are sticking up for up to now makes you beyond hope but it must pay well.. Good luck in your life. I would love to know honestly if this was your daughter or son murdered in these circumstances would you still be happy with the RTP case! Don't answer that! Because I know in your heart what the answer is.