Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[metisdead]

Troll posts and replies have been removed.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

DNA

"In DNA forensics the crime lab is constrained by whatever samples happen to be found at the scene of a crime. Samples may have been degraded and may be mixtures of samples from different individuals, as happens in a multiple murder. Also, the forensic scientist often has only a small amount of DNA, only enough to do one test, and as a result the test cannot be repeated because the sample will have been used up."

"Although DNA evidence in most courts is generally admissible in principle, the analysis of the evidence presented by forensics labs is the area that is brought under careful inspection. In many cases, judges have ruled that DNA evidence was not admissible because the analysis did not follow generally accepted principles of forensic analysis. Also, in dozens of cases prosecutors have chosen to withdraw DNA evidence when defense attorneys have hired their own forensic experts who raised questions about the validity of the evidence."

https://education.llnl.gov/bep/socsci/11/tEvi.html

Interesting link, but DNA Forensics have moved on since then. This is over 15 years old.

So what has changed these past 15 years in relation to my post? That they don't run out of DNA when sampling, or that the Courts now accept all DNA as Evidence and don't throw it out anymore?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

According the the families statement:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,"

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

No worries though as I thought you were showing genuine concern for the family but in your follow-up post it would seem to indicate that you believe they have their heads buried in the sand despite their being the only ones who have an unquestionable motivation to see true justice carried out and who are privy to more evidence and facts about the case than any of us.

They have not been privy to anything but hearsay. Not facts.

Please tell us the evidence they received?

privy

adjective

sharing in the knowledge of (something secret or private).

example: "he was no longer privy to her innermost thoughts"

synonyms: in the know about, acquainted with, in on, informed of, advised of,apprised of;

I post the above simply because your reply only makes sense if you don't understand the meaning of the word used.

Edited July 18, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[stephenterry]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Miller family made a statement during the recent court hearings to the effect that they were going with the flow and keeping an open mind. To any reasonable person that means they are willing to accept that the RTP case may not be as perfect as they were led to believe four months ago. They also alluded to the interest shown on the internet, so I would suggest they are now more aware of alternative opinions to the RTP assertions.

I encourage you both keep up to speed with the latest in an open and fair-minded manner, rather than post misleading and deflective statements.

[boomerangutang]

According the the families statement:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," [/size]

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."[/size]

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."[/size]

No worries though as I thought you were showing genuine concern for the family but in your follow-up post it would seem to indicate that you believe they have their heads buried in the sand despite their being the only ones who have an unquestionable motivation to see true justice carried out and who are privy to more evidence and facts about the case than any of us.

JTJ, you're 8 months behind the 8 ball. One member of one of the two families made that statement - based up what....? Based upon data he got from a spokesperson who got it from a Brit investigator who did no investigation, who in turn got if from a Thai cop who probably didn't speak very good English (I have yet to meet a RTP who could speak English). That policeman was under strict orders to toe the official line, to make the Burmese appear guilty, and make no reference to the former two prime suspects. Garbage in, garbage out.

Now, 8 months later, the families have likely got a better idea of the RTP and Thai justice system.

Even so, the families don't have access to more facts than us concerned observers. If there are 200 posters on this topic, and the average stay of each poster in Thailand is 2 years, then that's roughly 400 years of cumulative experience with Thailand. Some of us have resided in Thailand for over 20 years, and have had numerous interactions with police and courts, good and bad. JTJ, are you saying the two British family members have better idea of how things transpire in Thailand than all of us combined?

I say it is time to set the boys free Thailand, do you need more international embarrassment?

I think RTP and the prosecution DO NEED more embarrassment. If, for no other reason, they may enact some improvements to how they investigate future crime scenes. And they may be less inclined to nail scapegoats in the future. I ask the judge to not declare a mistrial. I want to see the RTP frame-up exposed to the full extent possible. Bring it on.

....though am truly sorry the B2 have to continue to suffer unfairly, being shackled with no-hope-for-bail, and eating crappy stale rice with cockroaches (yes, that's part of what prisoners eat in Thai prisons).

[thailandchilli]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

DNA

"In DNA forensics the crime lab is constrained by whatever samples happen to be found at the scene of a crime. Samples may have been degraded and may be mixtures of samples from different individuals, as happens in a multiple murder. Also, the forensic scientist often has only a small amount of DNA, only enough to do one test, and as a result the test cannot be repeated because the sample will have been used up."

"Although DNA evidence in most courts is generally admissible in principle, the analysis of the evidence presented by forensics labs is the area that is brought under careful inspection. In many cases, judges have ruled that DNA evidence was not admissible because the analysis did not follow generally accepted principles of forensic analysis. Also, in dozens of cases prosecutors have chosen to withdraw DNA evidence when defense attorneys have hired their own forensic experts who raised questions about the validity of the evidence."

https://education.llnl.gov/bep/socsci/11/tEvi.html

Interesting link, but DNA Forensics have moved on since then. This is over 15 years old.

So what has changed these past 15 years in relation to my post? That they don't run out of DNA when sampling, or that the Courts now accept all DNA as Evidence and don't throw it out anymore?

I was pointing out a fact for you, another fact is that there have been huge advances in the last 15 years, Google is your friend if you wish to discover or you can cling to 15 year old reports. Here's one for you for starters:

DNA evidence can become contaminated when DNA from another source gets mixed with DNA relevant to the case. For this reason, investigators and laboratory personnel should always wear disposable gloves, use clean instruments, and avoid touching other objects, including their own body, when handling evidence. Environmental factors, such as heat and humidity, can also accelerate the degradation of DNA. For example, wet or moist evidence that is packaged in plastic will provide a growth environment for bacteria that can destroy DNA evidence. Therefore, biological evidence should be thoroughly air dried, packaged in paper, and properly labeled. Handled in this manner, DNA can be stored for years without risk of extensive degradation, even at room temperature. For long-term storage http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/NIJ-DNAguidevictimserviceprovider.pdf

Edited July 18, 2015 by thailandchilli

[GOLDBUGGY]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Miller family made a statement during the recent court hearings to the effect that they were going with the flow and keeping an open mind. To any reasonable person that means they are willing to accept that the RTP case may not be as perfect as they were led to believe four months ago. They also alluded to the interest shown on the internet, so I would suggest they are now more aware of alternative opinions to the RTP assertions.

I encourage you both keep up to speed with the latest in an open and fair-minded manner, rather than post misleading and deflective statements.

Man! If that isn't the poorest example I have ever seen in reading between the lines in my life. You must be seeing double or something.

"Going with the flow" means to move along with prevailing forces, accept the prevailing trend, rather then striking out in a new direction. It does not mean they are disappointed in how the trial is going as it is not as perfect as they expected. How do you know what they expected?

It mean they are not striking out in a different direction. So I can't see how you see them changing their minds about anything. What I see is that they just don't want to talk about it to you, or me, or to the press. They have gone through some terrible times here lately. I can't imagine how that father feels after seeing his beautiful daughter in those crime scene photos. I can't speak for him but I know that if that was my daughter it would be an everlasting image embedded in my mind that I would never forget.

[minikev]

2. Many of us just do not trust anything the RTP say

This is absolutely untrue. What is being done is taking selective things stated or attributed to police, especially early on comments that have since been corrected /updated as it was incorrect speculation, and using those (often twisted) to build ridiculous theories while ignoring updates or doing what you have just done and saying police cannot be trusted when it is something that blows a whole in their unfounded and implausible theories.

Same thing happens now as people bury their head in the sand and pretend that all the DNA evidence has been lost despite the fact this has since been clarified as being untrue. Reading through much of these things here is painful but it is also fascinating to see how far people will depart from reality to keep up this game they have created for their own psychological needs. I too get caught up in this as I just can't resist jumping in sometimes to point out the obvious despite the fact I know the chances are slim to none anyone will be awakened back to reality.

The arguments are all circle and illogical ... we want DNA tested outside the police yet later the same person will say police fudged the DNA. Well now that they have had the evidence and the suspects for months, don't you think it logical they could plant their DNA on a cigarette butt or weapon by now? Yet, there is then the pretending all the DNA is lost by the same guys who were able to plant the accused semen in the victim. Just all goes in a big circle but all comes down to being like a little kid screaming with his hands over his ears because he doesn't want to hear the truth. NOTHING is going to change their mind even if the two plead guilty as they will say they pled for other reasons or if the defense tests the DNA and it matches theirs, it will be said police manipulated the evidence before turning it over. Same type of BS about the kid who was in Bangkok. No DNA, Video, Witnesses or anything else will show he is not guilty despite the fact there is NOTHING to indicate he was in anyway involved.

It is just fascinating to see this continue on by some even though months have passed for people to get their emotions in check and come back down to reality.

I agree with a lot that you have written in this post however I believe you are missing one very major point.

If there was a chain of custody followed in the collection of the DNA samples from day 1 it would now be impossible to "plant" evidence which included previously tested DNA as all the first samples would have been signed off and secure.

[JLCrab]

<snip>

<snip>

Even so, the families don't have access to more facts than us concerned observers. If there are 200 posters on this topic, and the average stay of each poster in Thailand is 2 years, then that's roughly 400 years of cumulative experience with Thailand. Some of us have resided in Thailand for over 20 years, and have had numerous interactions with police and courts, good and bad. JTJ, are you saying the two British family members have better idea of how things transpire in Thailand than all of us combined?

<snip>

The Miller and Witheridge families are being advised by the UK F&CO which first established official diplomatic relations with the Kingdom of Thailand (then Siam) in 1826 so close to 200 years of actual experience.

[StealthEnergiser]

I am not for one minute accusing anybody of being sock puppets on this forum but this is a high profile case being watched world wide.

I am also aware the mods prefer us to to talk about them so this is a one off post to say there is possibly a group of sock puppets on this forum.

There are also thoughts that some people are shielding the headmans family and to better describe these type I have found a reference below.

It is really better to ignore the suspected people .

Sockpuppet (Internet)

A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term, a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock, originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an Internet community who spoke to, or about, themselves while pretending to be another person.^[1] The term now includes other misleading uses of online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or organization,^[2] or to circumvent a suspension or ban from a website. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym^[3] and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer. Many online communities attempt to block sockpuppets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)

[GOLDBUGGY]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Miller family made a statement during the recent court hearings to the effect that they were going with the flow and keeping an open mind. To any reasonable person that means they are willing to accept that the RTP case may not be as perfect as they were led to believe four months ago. They also alluded to the interest shown on the internet, so I would suggest they are now more aware of alternative opinions to the RTP assertions.

I encourage you both keep up to speed with the latest in an open and fair-minded manner, rather than post misleading and deflective statements.

Hell let's all catch up and see if what you said is true.

I especially like the last few paragraphs.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/10/family-of-briton-murdered-in-thailand-its-been-hard-very-hard

[stephenterry]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Miller family made a statement during the recent court hearings to the effect that they were going with the flow and keeping an open mind. To any reasonable person that means they are willing to accept that the RTP case may not be as perfect as they were led to believe four months ago. They also alluded to the interest shown on the internet, so I would suggest they are now more aware of alternative opinions to the RTP assertions.

I encourage you both keep up to speed with the latest in an open and fair-minded manner, rather than post misleading and deflective statements.

Man! If that isn't the poorest example I have ever seen in reading between the lines in my life. You must be seeing double or something.

"Going with the flow" means to move along with prevailing forces, accept the prevailing trend, rather then striking out in a new direction. It does not mean they are disappointed in how the trial is going as it is not as perfect as they expected. How do you know what they expected?

It mean they are not striking out in a different direction. So I can't see how you see them changing their minds about anything. What I see is that they just don't want to talk about it to you, or me, or to the press. They have gone through some terrible times here lately. I can't imagine how that father feels after seeing his beautiful daughter in those crime scene photos. I can't speak for him but I know that if that was my daughter it would be an everlasting image embedded in my mind that I would never forget.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. The actuality is that they DID make a media statement ( I think it was to Sky news) which means they were talking to an audience. 'Going with the flow' coupled with an 'open mind' means that they are willing to hear both sides of the case against the B2 BEFORE coming to a conclusion as to the guilt of the B2.

And I am talking about the Miller family, not the father of the Witheridge family - who may well have a different opinion.

And please don't be so belligerent, when you respond. It belittles your credibility (if there is any left on this forum).

[boomerangutang]

sp1.jpg

It would be a more believable depiction of a sock puppet, in this context, if it had a typical RTP officer's uniform on, with the dozens of embellishments, including a dozen campaign ribbons, impressive medallions, sashes, gold braids, and flyer's wings.

[Rykbanlor]

I'm just trying to imagine getting involved in a discussion on a forum where the majority of posters believe the moon landings were fake and I did not. I wouldn;t have the patience to keep at them for 100 plus pages. I'd probably lose interest after about 10. Same when I have ever conversed with someone that holds these views, I get bored of arguing with them after 10 minutes because they will always have a comeback.

[minikev]

2. Many of us just do not trust anything the RTP say

This is absolutely untrue. What is being done is taking selective things stated or attributed to police, especially early on comments that have since been corrected /updated as it was incorrect speculation, and using those (often twisted) to build ridiculous theories while ignoring updates or doing what you have just done and saying police cannot be trusted when it is something that blows a whole in their unfounded and implausible theories.

Same thing happens now as people bury their head in the sand and pretend that all the DNA evidence has been lost despite the fact this has since been clarified as being untrue. Reading through much of these things here is painful but it is also fascinating to see how far people will depart from reality to keep up this game they have created for their own psychological needs. I too get caught up in this as I just can't resist jumping in sometimes to point out the obvious despite the fact I know the chances are slim to none anyone will be awakened back to reality.

The arguments are all circle and illogical ... we want DNA tested outside the police yet later the same person will say police fudged the DNA. Well now that they have had the evidence and the suspects for months, don't you think it logical they could plant their DNA on a cigarette butt or weapon by now? Yet, there is then the pretending all the DNA is lost by the same guys who were able to plant the accused semen in the victim. Just all goes in a big circle but all comes down to being like a little kid screaming with his hands over his ears because he doesn't want to hear the truth. NOTHING is going to change their mind even if the two plead guilty as they will say they pled for other reasons or if the defense tests the DNA and it matches theirs, it will be said police manipulated the evidence before turning it over. Same type of BS about the kid who was in Bangkok. No DNA, Video, Witnesses or anything else will show he is not guilty despite the fact there is NOTHING to indicate he was in anyway involved.

It is just fascinating to see this continue on by some even though months have passed for people to get their emotions in check and come back down to reality.

I agree with a lot that you have written in this post however I believe you are missing one very major point.

If there was a chain of custody followed in the collection of the DNA samples from day 1 it would now be impossible to "plant" evidence which included previously tested DNA as all the first samples would have been signed off and secure.

To add to my last post I think JTJ has hit the nail on the head with this post. This argument can never be settled. It is plain and simple to see the police didn't follow guidelines whilst collecting evidence and now have presented this evidence as the prosecution. Now that evidence is presented it is simply a question of did you trust them or not. Those that don't will argue for the defence and those that do will argue for the prosecution. This argument will go on forever as there is no way to check if the results they acheived are real or not.

[IslandLover]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Miller family made a statement during the recent court hearings to the effect that they were going with the flow and keeping an open mind. To any reasonable person that means they are willing to accept that the RTP case may not be as perfect as they were led to believe four months ago. They also alluded to the interest shown on the internet, so I would suggest they are now more aware of alternative opinions to the RTP assertions.

I encourage you both keep up to speed with the latest in an open and fair-minded manner, rather than post misleading and deflective statements.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated

No it most certainly isn't! JTJ just regurgitated the families' sentiments expressed in the statements issued through the FCO back in December 2014. As stated by stephenterry (and me in a previous post), the Miller family appear to have a different opinion now after sitting through the first 3 days of the trial. GB, your arrogance is astounding.

Edited July 18, 2015 by IslandLover

[GOLDBUGGY]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Miller family made a statement during the recent court hearings to the effect that they were going with the flow and keeping an open mind. To any reasonable person that means they are willing to accept that the RTP case may not be as perfect as they were led to believe four months ago. They also alluded to the interest shown on the internet, so I would suggest they are now more aware of alternative opinions to the RTP assertions.

I encourage you both keep up to speed with the latest in an open and fair-minded manner, rather than post misleading and deflective statements.

Man! If that isn't the poorest example I have ever seen in reading between the lines in my life. You must be seeing double or something.

"Going with the flow" means to move along with prevailing forces, accept the prevailing trend, rather then striking out in a new direction. It does not mean they are disappointed in how the trial is going as it is not as perfect as they expected. How do you know what they expected?

It mean they are not striking out in a different direction. So I can't see how you see them changing their minds about anything. What I see is that they just don't want to talk about it to you, or me, or to the press. They have gone through some terrible times here lately. I can't imagine how that father feels after seeing his beautiful daughter in those crime scene photos. I can't speak for him but I know that if that was my daughter it would be an everlasting image embedded in my mind that I would never forget.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. The actuality is that they DID make a media statement ( I think it was to Sky news) which means they were talking to an audience. 'Going with the flow' coupled with an 'open mind' means that they are willing to hear both sides of the case against the B2 BEFORE coming to a conclusion as to the guilt of the B2.

And I am talking about the Miller family, not the father of the Witheridge family - who may well have a different opinion.

And please don't be so belligerent, when you respond. It belittles your credibility (if there is any left on this forum).

"If there is any left on this forum"

Now who is being belligerent?

No. I do not agree to disagree with you as you were wrong! The discussion was on the families. The (s) means 2 or more. You pick out one sentence and twist it. Then cast doubt on my credibility. I posted the full story with a Link and let people decide for themselves.

[stephenterry]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Miller family made a statement during the recent court hearings to the effect that they were going with the flow and keeping an open mind. To any reasonable person that means they are willing to accept that the RTP case may not be as perfect as they were led to believe four months ago. They also alluded to the interest shown on the internet, so I would suggest they are now more aware of alternative opinions to the RTP assertions.

I encourage you both keep up to speed with the latest in an open and fair-minded manner, rather than post misleading and deflective statements.

Hell let's all catch up and see if what you said is true.

I especially like the last few paragraphs.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/10/family-of-briton-murdered-in-thailand-its-been-hard-very-hard

Ah, so you agree that this is the latest family statement made to the media, as relayed by the Guardian? Apologies accepted for the original inaccurate information. How you interpret it, is up to you. Which no doubt will be another 'off the wall' opinion. And your use of the word 'like' is not a word I would use to describe the Witheridge's family's distress. Clearly, your empathy towards them is false.

And you ought to read a much later (and more accurate) report issued by the Telegraph on the 18th July relating to the Miller family. The Guardian report (10th July) includes a Witheridge pre-trial written statement made to the FCO that was made on the 8th regarding 'letting the police and courts do their jobs'. Very misleading reporting, IMO, but typical of the press.

Edited July 18, 2015 by stephenterry

[GOLDBUGGY]

Rockenrobin

Yes. Please do remain flabbergasted! I don't know you any other way. You also don't have to tell me you ignore my posts. I already know you stick your head in the sand when anyone even suggested different than you.

If a person says his opinion is this or that, than fine.Even if it is way off the wall, like many are here. But when someone states, like catsanddogs did, he knows something new about the families that the rest of us don't know, then doesn't prove it, this is not an opinion. It is just misleading and a down right bare assed faced lie.

The most updated news from the families is what JTJ stated, and also myself now! If you have different information, then prove it and share it with the rest of us. If you do not, then stopping jumping in with false misleading statements. There is enough around without your help. People are getting sick having to listen to every post defended and attacked by the Lynch Mob.

If you do not agree then fine. I don't agree with a lot of crap here either. But I don't jump on everyone just because their opinion is different than mine.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Miller family made a statement during the recent court hearings to the effect that they were going with the flow and keeping an open mind. To any reasonable person that means they are willing to accept that the RTP case may not be as perfect as they were led to believe four months ago. They also alluded to the interest shown on the internet, so I would suggest they are now more aware of alternative opinions to the RTP assertions.

I encourage you both keep up to speed with the latest in an open and fair-minded manner, rather than post misleading and deflective statements.

Hell let's all catch up and see if what you said is true.

I especially like the last few paragraphs.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/10/family-of-briton-murdered-in-thailand-its-been-hard-very-hard

Ah, so you agree that this is the latest family statement made to the media, as relayed by the Guardian? Apologies accepted for the original inaccurate information. How you interpret it, is up to you. Which no doubt will be another 'off the wall' opinion. And your use of the word 'like' is not a word I would use to describe the Witheridge's family's distress. Clearly, your empathy towards them is false.

My statement did not say this was the last post on comments from the family.I had seen the media before and why I posted it.

This is also why I made this claim in my statement and said the most updated news on the families is that same. That they have not been quoted as changing their minds about being unhappy with the trial, as someone else suggested. My Opinion is still the same! You are welcome to form your own.

[stephenterry]

Your opinions are always welcome, GB. I print them off (on cheap paper), and make paper planes out of them. I have two squadrons ready to dispatch from my condo apartment. Hopefully they will quieten the Karaoke below.

Edited July 18, 2015 by stephenterry

[smedly]

I say it is time to set the boys free Thailand, do you need more international embarrassment?

I would not be about to set anyone free but the Thai police need to learn about justice and how that works, you can not convict someone based on lies deception and a "say so", a conviction must be based on undeniable evidence that can stand up to rigorous scrutiny, there are a lot of people round the world looking at this case, it must be solid and beyond reproach.

If this case was being heard in a western court it would already have been dismissed

Edited July 18, 2015 by smedly

[Tony121]

I say it is time to set the boys free Thailand, do you need more international embarrassment?

I would not be about to set anyone free but the Thai police need to learn about justice and how that works, you can not convict someone based on lies deception and a "say so", a conviction must be based on undeniable evidence that can stand up to rigorous scrutiny, there are a lot of people round the world looking at this case, it must be solid and beyond reproach.

If this case was being heard in a western court it would already have been dismissed

Why would it be dismissed ?

[thailandchilli]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 — Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ but it is aimed at the hundreds of thousands of other people who feel this trial is not fair or transparent

Edited July 18, 2015 by thailandchilli

[smedly]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

DNA

"In DNA forensics the crime lab is constrained by whatever samples happen to be found at the scene of a crime. Samples may have been degraded and may be mixtures of samples from different individuals, as happens in a multiple murder. Also, the forensic scientist often has only a small amount of DNA, only enough to do one test, and as a result the test cannot be repeated because the sample will have been used up."

"Although DNA evidence in most courts is generally admissible in principle, the analysis of the evidence presented by forensics labs is the area that is brought under careful inspection. In many cases, judges have ruled that DNA evidence was not admissible because the analysis did not follow generally accepted principles of forensic analysis. Also, in dozens of cases prosecutors have chosen to withdraw DNA evidence when defense attorneys have hired their own forensic experts who raised questions about the validity of the evidence."

https://education.llnl.gov/bep/socsci/11/tEvi.html

your first paragraph is nonsense especially in this case when there would have been a considerable quantity of DNA evidence available from the victim, one of the things that I remember very early in this debacle was the forensic experts from Bangkok questioning why they were not involved at the crime scene, it is also worth noting that although samples were taken from the bodies by police at the scene (something that in my opinion should only have be done by experts), both bodies should have undergone extensive examination by a pathologist and samples taken and kept as evidence - where are they ?

Edited July 18, 2015 by smedly

[Tony121]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 — Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ

IF the person doing this Campaign knows 100 % sure they are innocent shouldn't he pass the evidence to the defense rather than launching a poster campaign ?

[thailandchilli]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 — Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ

IF the person doing this Campaign knows 100 % sure they are innocent shouldn't he pass the evidence to the defense rather than launching a poster campaign ?

Bravo, was waiting for a comment like that to come along and I thought it would be by one of the usual suspects, thanks for the great input and re-posting the appeal

Edited July 18, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Tony121]

A lot of big money behind the scenes, influenced the outcome! "Where there is smoke, There is fire!"

Show us the proof or a link or have you just made this up ?

[boomerangutang]

To add to my last post I think JTJ has hit the nail on the head with this post. This argument can never be settled. It is plain and simple to see the police didn't follow guidelines whilst collecting evidence and now have presented this evidence as the prosecution. Now that evidence is presented it is simply a question of did you trust them or not. Those that don't will argue for the defence and those that do will argue for the prosecution. This argument will go on forever as there is no way to check if the results they acheived are real or not.

That's like the harried housewife, when her two little boys come running in the house. One is unsoiled but one is covered in mud. Both boys are yelling at their mom,

Paul says; "Sam wrestled with the pig!"

Sam, covered in mud says, "No, it wasn't me, it was Paul who wrestled with the pig!"

Mom throws up her hands and says, "Oh you boys, I'm at the end of my tether. I don't know who's telling the truth."

I say it is time to set the boys free Thailand, do you need more international embarrassment?

I would not be about to set anyone free but the Thai police need to learn about justice and how that works, you can not convict someone based on lies deception and a "say so", a conviction must be based on undeniable evidence that can stand up to rigorous scrutiny, there are a lot of people round the world looking at this case, it must be solid and beyond reproach.

If this case was being heard in a western court it would already have been dismissed

Why would it be dismissed ?

Is that a joke question? Ummm, let me see if I can answer that. 'Why would it be dismissed.' Define 'why'. Define 'dismissed.' Oh, I know why! because the police and prosecution are basing their case on evidence which they can't substantiate. DNA is all they had, and now they can't provide that. Oh, maybe they can. No, maybe they can't. Ummmm, Let's take a break and have caffeine drinks. .....crime investigation - Thai style.

[Linky]

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

If I lived outside of the bubble I'd be at the mercy of a known corrupt system as this family and many more have. If the evidence isn't there then they are believing for the sake of believing.

According the the families statement:

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,"

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

No worries though as I thought you were showing genuine concern for the family but in your follow-up post it would seem to indicate that you believe they have their heads buried in the sand despite their being the only ones who have an unquestionable motivation to see true justice carried out and who are privy to more evidence and facts about the case than any of us.

They have not been privy to anything but hearsay. Not facts.

Please tell us the evidence they received?

privy

adjective

sharing in the knowledge of (something secret or private).

example: "he was no longer privy to her innermost thoughts"

synonyms: in the know about, acquainted with, in on, informed of, advised of,apprised of;

I post the above simply because your reply only makes sense if you don't understand the meaning of the word used.

As you state, privy, sharing in the knowledge of something (secret or private).

They have not been privy to any facts. They have only had hearsay.

As you are so astute with your English teaching your refusal to actually respond to my point indicates tacit approval.

So thank you for agreeing the families have not had any facts relayed to them.

[smedly]

I say it is time to set the boys free Thailand, do you need more international embarrassment?

I would not be about to set anyone free but the Thai police need to learn about justice and how that works, you can not convict someone based on lies deception and a "say so", a conviction must be based on undeniable evidence that can stand up to rigorous scrutiny, there are a lot of people round the world looking at this case, it must be solid and beyond reproach.

If this case was being heard in a western court it would already have been dismissed

Why would it be dismissed ?

do some reading back on this forum from yesterday, I'm not going to post it again

The key DNA evidence would have been ruled inadmissible because the defence has no way to scrutinise it

This whole process has nothing to do with trust in the police, in the west the police must make sure they follow strict protocols and procedures stipulated by the justice system enacted to protect the rights of those accused of crimes and ensure they get a fair trial