Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Tony121]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 — Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ

IF the person doing this Campaign knows 100 % sure they are innocent shouldn't he pass the evidence to the defense rather than launching a poster campaign ?

Bravo, was waiting for a comment like that to come along and I thought it would be by one of the usual suspects, thanks for the great input and re-posting the appeal

Your welcome I am starting the Thai family are innocent campaign and going to get a petition that they shouldn't stand trial as well. Fair ?

and I am going to match your campaign with the same 100 no proof Guarantee.

[thailandchilli]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 — Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ

IF the person doing this Campaign knows 100 % sure they are innocent shouldn't he pass the evidence to the defense rather than launching a poster campaign ?

Bravo, was waiting for a comment like that to come along and I thought it would be by one of the usual suspects, thanks for the great input and re-posting the appeal

Your welcome I am starting the Thai family are innocent campaign and going to get a petition that they shouldn't stand trial as well. Fair ?

and I am going to match your campaign with the same 100 no proof Guarantee.

Its not my campaign but yes feel free to go ahead and start your own declaring a Thai Family is innocent, let hope you also have 100% proof of that. Let me know once you've set it up so we can post it in the forums for you, we can then see how many signatures you get.................cum on then get going or are you all talk and no action

[smedly]

2. Many of us just do not trust anything the RTP say

This is absolutely untrue. What is being done is taking selective things stated or attributed to police, especially early on comments that have since been corrected /updated as it was incorrect speculation, and using those (often twisted) to build ridiculous theories while ignoring updates or doing what you have just done and saying police cannot be trusted when it is something that blows a whole in their unfounded and implausible theories.

Same thing happens now as people bury their head in the sand and pretend that all the DNA evidence has been lost despite the fact this has since been clarified as being untrue. Reading through much of these things here is painful but it is also fascinating to see how far people will depart from reality to keep up this game they have created for their own psychological needs. I too get caught up in this as I just can't resist jumping in sometimes to point out the obvious despite the fact I know the chances are slim to none anyone will be awakened back to reality.

The arguments are all circle and illogical ... we want DNA tested outside the police yet later the same person will say police fudged the DNA. Well now that they have had the evidence and the suspects for months, don't you think it logical they could plant their DNA on a cigarette butt or weapon by now? Yet, there is then the pretending all the DNA is lost by the same guys who were able to plant the accused semen in the victim. Just all goes in a big circle but all comes down to being like a little kid screaming with his hands over his ears because he doesn't want to hear the truth. NOTHING is going to change their mind even if the two plead guilty as they will say they pled for other reasons or if the defense tests the DNA and it matches theirs, it will be said police manipulated the evidence before turning it over. Same type of BS about the kid who was in Bangkok. No DNA, Video, Witnesses or anything else will show he is not guilty despite the fact there is NOTHING to indicate he was in anyway involved.

It is just fascinating to see this continue on by some even though months have passed for people to get their emotions in check and come back down to reality.

I agree with a lot that you have written in this post however I believe you are missing one very major point.

If there was a chain of custody followed in the collection of the DNA samples from day 1 it would now be impossible to "plant" evidence which included previously tested DNA as all the first samples would have been signed off and secure.

To add to my last post I think JTJ has hit the nail on the head with this post. This argument can never be settled. It is plain and simple to see the police didn't follow guidelines whilst collecting evidence and now have presented this evidence as the prosecution. Now that evidence is presented it is simply a question of did you trust them or not. Those that don't will argue for the defence and those that do will argue for the prosecution. This argument will go on forever as there is no way to check if the results they acheived are real or not.

I don't want to bust your bubble but you have actually identified everything that is wrong in this case with the above

There should not be an argument to settle, the case against the accused should be rock solid and able to take any scrutiny thrown at it, it is not about "do you trust them or not"

It's a bit like getting a speeding fine posted through your door, if it just says you were speeding - pay here, well I think you would need to see a lot more than that .............right ? and so would a court

[Linky]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ

IF the person doing this Campaign knows 100 % sure they are innocent shouldn't he pass the evidence to the defense rather than launching a poster campaign ?

Newsflash, you dont need to prove innocence. The prosecution needs to prove guilt.

Prosecution at this stage have proved nothing, for dna to be admissable in any real court they must prove chain of custody. They havent done so.

Any real court would not consider dna evidence in such a case.

So at this stage no right minded person could convict these accused. So at this stage, as they have not been convicted, they are 100% innocent. Until proven otherwise.

As one Judge in australia used to tell the jury, 'the accused is bathed in innocence until proven otherwise'.

So yes, they are 100% innocent. Do you have proof they aren't?

[minikev]

I say it is time to set the boys free Thailand, do you need more international embarrassment?

I would not be about to set anyone free but the Thai police need to learn about justice and how that works, you can not convict someone based on lies deception and a "say so", a conviction must be based on undeniable evidence that can stand up to rigorous scrutiny, there are a lot of people round the world looking at this case, it must be solid and beyond reproach.

If this case was being heard in a western court it would already have been dismissed

Why would it be dismissed ?

do some reading back on this forum from yesterday, I'm not going to post it again

The key DNA evidence would have been ruled inadmissible because the defence has no way to scrutinise it

This whole process has nothing to do with trust in the police, in the west the police must make sure they follow strict protocols and procedures stipulated by the justice system enacted to protect the rights of those accused of crimes and ensure they get a fair trial

It is also important to point out that the chain of evidence rules are set not only to reduce the likeleyhood of improper tampering etc, it also reduces the chance of human error. The people involved with collecting 200 or so samples in a few days and the people processing these samples will have been under extraordinary pressure and time limits, this left them wide open for the possibility of making mistakes. So if you completely trust the police there is still a huge possibility of a mistake been made. If there were samples kept and sealed it would now be possible to check these results.

[Tony121]

I

As i said the same proof as all of you on here none , if it was the thai family that were on trial I would want them to go through the same court process and an outcome to the case !

I wouldnt be trying to get the case stopped ! while having NO proof of my own

[Tony121]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

[JohnThailandJohn]

I agree with a lot that you have written in this post however I believe you are missing one very major point.

If there was a chain of custody followed in the collection of the DNA samples from day 1 it would now be impossible to "plant" evidence which included previously tested DNA as all the first samples would have been signed off and secure.

To add to my last post I think JTJ has hit the nail on the head with this post. This argument can never be settled. It is plain and simple to see the police didn't follow guidelines whilst collecting evidence and now have presented this evidence as the prosecution. Now that evidence is presented it is simply a question of did you trust them or not. Those that don't will argue for the defence and those that do will argue for the prosecution. This argument will go on forever as there is no way to check if the results they acheived are real or not.

I don't want to bust your bubble but you have actually identified everything that is wrong in this case with the above

There should not be an argument to settle, the case against the accused should be rock solid and able to take any scrutiny thrown at it, it is not about "do you trust them or not"

It's a bit like getting a speeding fine posted through your door, if it just says you were speeding - pay here, well I think you would need to see a lot more than that .............right ? and so would a court

Actually criminal trials nearly always come down to who is more believable be it a witness or the defense ability to cast doubt on their testimony or the police who collected and processed evidence. All about each side trying to poke holes in and discredit the other side's case. The whole nonsense about DNA evidence being available to the defense is ridiculous on all levels not just because it is in question if an what DNA may be available but more to the point is it is actually not at all uncommon for the physical DNA not be available for retesting. It is not much different than police presenting finger print evidence which is often used up and lifted from the original surface ... in other words no way to retest the item police claim the print came from. Trust is always an issue and what just about every trial is determined. The suspects have been in custody long enough and probably even had their blood taken so police have easy ability to have gone back and planted their DNA on evidence they have collected. All a matter of belief/trust and in some people;s case what they want to believe despite logic and reason.

Further on the DNA ... the DNA was collected very early on. The results of that DNA found from the crime scene was sequenced and markers identified and filed at various location for comparison with DNA samples collected from hundreds of suspects. IMO it is highly illogical, implausible and unbelievable to suggest that either the police early on planted the two suspects DNA at the crime scene early on to only make fools of themselves for weeks accussing others or that there was some vast conspiracy that happened that changed all the results of the crime scene DNA to become that of the suspects as this would involved a HUGE conspiracy. In other words, the defense is able to have their clients dna tested and compared with the results of the DNA found at the crime scene and filed right after the murders and well before their suspects were even on the radar. With that said, I believe you are also going to find that DNA from the crime scene including the semen found inside Hanah is still available to be tested. I will stick with my earlier prediction and that is the two will plead guilty during the trial which their own lawyer recently stated may happen based on what the evidence shows.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

I thought the headsman son who was in Bangkok at the time is the only one who has to prove his innocence.

[boomerangutang]

A lot of posters who want truth and justice, are assuming that the Thai court will resemble the standards of a Farangland court. In Farangland, besides the premise of 'innocent until proven guilty' there's also the assumption that legal authorities are objective. This is Thailand. The rules are different here. Social stratification is well defined and is a factor in everything. The RTP have a clear agenda in this case - which they and their top brass buddies (yea, the guys who control the most guns) have made clear - the direction they want to the trial to go. It's inconvenient for top brass to see their case crumbling like a sand castle built on a high bluff, but they'll probably get the desired result.

Note: the top brass would like to see the B2 found guilty, but that's not as high a priority (for them) as making sure the Headman's people stay shielded.

Note to TRT: you try confusing the DNA issue with mention of 'planting' DNA evidence. Planting of evidence is not an issue. The issue is intentionally mislabeling or falsifying DNA evidence already in custody. I've articulated in prior posts how easy it would be to change the file name on DNA typing. Now, I'm thinking top brass didn't even go to that much trouble to take 15 seconds to re-label a test sample.

I now think top brass (maybe just one or two guys) just stated what they wanted to say: ("Nomsod's DNA doesn't match" or "The B's DNA match") ....and the press and public have no choice but to lap it up. Everything that's happened prior to and after the start of the trial indicates that's the most plausible explanation for the multiple screw-ups of RTP (conflicting statements, losing DNA, 'DNA all used up' etc.)

Get a comfy seat, TRT, sit back and watch the RTP slowly self-implode. The fireworks have barely begun. I'm looking forward to what the defense has up their sleeves ('something from British experts'). I hope the judge doesn't declare a mistrial before the full show plays itself out. Sorry for the scapegoats in prison, though.

[thailandchilli]

I

As i said the same proof as all of you on here none , if it was the thai family that were on trial I would want them to go through the same court process and an outcome to the case !

I wouldnt be trying to get the case stopped ! while having NO proof of my own

As for the court process that is currently going on, I would not want to see anyone go through that, whether it were anyone in that particular Thai family, or anyone else. The process is flawed from the word go, seriously flawed and any outcome on a trial such as this could never have a fair decision based on innocence or guilt. Thats very clear to everyone across the world but not you. A retrial is necessary and a new investigation, that is the only possible way to even hope for justice in this case .

[minikev]

I don't want to bust your bubble but you have actually identified everything that is wrong in this case with the above

There should not be an argument to settle, the case against the accused should be rock solid and able to take any scrutiny thrown at it, it is not about "do you trust them or not"

It's a bit like getting a speeding fine posted through your door, if it just says you were speeding - pay here, well I think you would need to see a lot more than that .............right ? and so would a court

I am very aware of what is wrong with the case. Actually if you read my post i refer to this argument.

My own opinion is that the case should be thrown out as it is obviously grossly unfair that test results presented cannot be substantiated. Conveniently the evidence used to get these results is now not available for whatever reason. This in it self should be enough to make those test results inadmissible.

We here on TVF are having a discussion about the case. What we think or say will probably have no bearing on the case.

That is up to the court. I sincerely hope they get a fair trial. In saying this if new evidence came to light that proved beyond a doubt they did it I would also accept that.

[thailandchilli]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

I thought the headsman son who was in Bangkok at the time is the only one who has to prove his innocence.

You thought wrong.............again

[JohnThailandJohn]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ

IF the person doing this Campaign knows 100 % sure they are innocent shouldn't he pass the evidence to the defense rather than launching a poster campaign ?

Newsflash, you dont need to prove innocence. The prosecution needs to prove guilt.

Prosecution at this stage have proved nothing, for dna to be admissable in any real court they must prove chain of custody. They havent done so.

Any real court would not consider dna evidence in such a case.

So at this stage no right minded person could convict these accused. So at this stage, as they have not been convicted, they are 100% innocent. Until proven otherwise.

As one Judge in australia used to tell the jury, 'the accused is bathed in innocence until proven otherwise'.

So yes, they are 100% innocent. Do you have proof they aren't?

If in any country there was truly 100% innocent until provin guilty then nobody would be jailed prior to a conviction.

And regardless of a conviction, an admission in open court or anything else ... lets face it, they will always been innocent in your eyes.

[stephenterry]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

The case should be dropped because the RTP do not have the DNA samples to substantiate/verify/validate their assertions. And without samples there is no provable chain of custody. Therefore, legally, there is no provable evidence to convict the B2 (based on DNA).

Whether they are guilty or innocent, is neither here nor there. At the moment they are innocent because they haven't been convicted.

Whether the court would accept a RTP written report only, is another matter - and no doubt the media (social and press) would have a field day if it was.

[Tony121]

A lot of posters who want truth and justice, are assuming that the Thai court will resemble the standards of a Farangland court. In Farangland, besides the premise of 'innocent until proven guilty' there's also the assumption that legal authorities are objective. This is Thailand. The rules are different here. Social stratification is well defined and is a factor in everything. The RTP have a clear agenda in this case - which they and their top brass buddies (yea, the guys who control the most guns) have made clear - the direction they want to the trial to go. It's inconvenient for top brass to see their case crumbling like a sand castle built on a high bluff, but they'll probably get the desired result.

Note: the top brass would like to see the B2 found guilty, but that's not as high a priority (for them) as making sure the Headman's people stay shielded.

Yes a headman who was picking coconuts and living in a bamboo hut 35 years ago before the tourists came,

A headman who runs a small rock in the sea with a population of 3,000 mostly burmese,

He even has more power than the red bull family as the police charged him and he is on the run, The Headman must be even more powerful than Chalerm Because even his son was charged and stood trial.

I bet you most of the "top brass" didn't even know where koh tao is before the murders

[Just1Voice]

A lot of posters who want truth and justice, are assuming that the Thai court will resemble the standards of a Farangland court. In Farangland, besides the premise of 'innocent until proven guilty' there's also the assumption that legal authorities are objective. This is Thailand. The rules are different here. Social stratification is well defined and is a factor in everything. The RTP have a clear agenda in this case - which they and their top brass buddies (yea, the guys who control the most guns) have made clear - the direction they want to the trial to go. It's inconvenient for top brass to see their case crumbling like a sand castle built on a high bluff, but they'll probably get the desired result.

Note: the top brass would like to see the B2 found guilty, but that's not as high a priority (for them) as making sure the Headman's people stay shielded.

Yes a headman who was picking coconuts and living in a bamboo hut 35 years ago before the tourists came,

A headman who runs a small rock in the sea with a population of 3,000 mostly burmese,

He even has more power than the red bull family as the police charged him and he is on the run, The Headman must be even more powerful than Chalerm Because even his son was charged and stood trial.

I bet you most of the "top brass" didn't even know where koh tao is before the murders

The Headman must be even more powerful than Chalerm Because even his son was charged and stood trial.

Well, you're about half right. He was charged and brought to trial ONLY after hiding out in another country (Malaysia or Indonesia, I forget which) for over a year, giving his father time to "fix" things, so that when he finally did go to trial, none of the previous witnesses would testify against him, with quite a few of them clearly stating they had been threatened with death if they did.

You call that a "fair trial"? Sorry, but I don't.

[Rykbanlor]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

[thailandchilli]

A lot of posters who want truth and justice, are assuming that the Thai court will resemble the standards of a Farangland court. In Farangland, besides the premise of 'innocent until proven guilty' there's also the assumption that legal authorities are objective. This is Thailand. The rules are different here. Social stratification is well defined and is a factor in everything. The RTP have a clear agenda in this case - which they and their top brass buddies (yea, the guys who control the most guns) have made clear - the direction they want to the trial to go. It's inconvenient for top brass to see their case crumbling like a sand castle built on a high bluff, but they'll probably get the desired result.

Note: the top brass would like to see the B2 found guilty, but that's not as high a priority (for them) as making sure the Headman's people stay shielded.

Yes a headman who was picking coconuts and living in a bamboo hut 35 years ago before the tourists came,

A headman who runs a small rock in the sea with a population of 3,000 mostly burmese,

He even has more power than the red bull family as the police charged him and he is on the run, The Headman must be even more powerful than Chalerm Because even his son was charged and stood trial.

I bet you most of the "top brass" didn't even know where koh tao is before the murders

Just a couple of corrections for you:

The 'Rock' has a population count of anything between 1,500 to 2,500 registered Thai locals depending on which reports you read. There are no official figures on the Burmese community as they are not registered in the majority of cases so any estimates are guess work.

I'm sure the top brass were aware of this little rock beforehand after all it has a revered monk who looks after it and its rewarded RTP

[PaPiPuPePo]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

You need to update yourself somewhat.

Here JTJ is slipping in an unsupported claim as if it's a fact bolstering his final point, which is also not absolutely true.

JTJ does not and can not know that "the family" (sic-there are two families) have more information than any of us. They never came to Thailand, and know what they were told by British police, who visited for a day or so (!) and were thus fed and by all appearances accepted the RTP line without doing more investigating themselves.

So nice try JTJ but once again--fail.

[JohnThailandJohn]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your concern would be more concerning if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Nevertheless... After all is said and done in court, in this forum and other social and news media, the real killers are still at large and that is sickening and even more so to the family. Once again, the saving of face has brought another victim's family shear devastation.

Last statements released from the family, who have much more information about the case than any of us, indicates they believe the right people are standing trial.

You need to update yourself somewhat.

Here JTJ is slipping in an unsupported claim as if it's a fact bolstering his final point, which is also not absolutely true.

JTJ does not and can not know that "the family" (sic-there are two families) have more information than any of us. They never came to Thailand, and know what they were told by British police, who visited for a day or so (!) and were thus fed and by all appearances accepted the RTP line without doing more investigating themselves.

So nice try JTJ but once again--fail.

Certainly as you suggest the victim's family could be lying or just ignorant.

“There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,” Witheridge’s family said in a statement.

“We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes.” .... “From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing.”

[thailandchilli]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your possible concern would have more plausibility if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

But thats the whole point, how do you know that the B2's DNA was found at the scene when the original is no longer available for inspection? All there is are reports. Its deflection to say it takes a huge conspiracy to switch labels or make mistakes in the original testing of the DNA at the RTP forensics in Bangkok. Without re testing this is only an RTP claim backed up with nothing other than a report.

[JohnThailandJohn]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your possible concern would have more plausibility if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

But thats the whole point, how do you know that the B2's DNA was found at the scene when the original is no longer available for inspection? All there is are reports. Its deflection to say it takes a huge conspiracy to switch labels or make mistakes in the original testing of the DNA at the RTP forensics in Bangkok. Without re testing this is only an RTP claim backed up with nothing other than a report.

Explained above ... The DNA was tested and the DNA Markers gathered and filed early on from the crime scene. This is what was used to compare with DNA gathered from all the suspects they tested (they took hundreds of samples before matching these two). You don't compare actual DNA to DNA but the DNA results. The DNA results from the DNA gathered from the scene has been in the hands of countless people including those involved in the testing since early on, well before these two were known or suspected. As I stated, it would take a vast conspiracy to remove all traces of those original DNA findings and have them replaced with other findings.

It would be a completely different story if they had these two in custody or even as suspects at the time of the collection of the DNA from the crime scene. This not only would make the set-up theory more plausible but also could be used to provide doubt in contamination if the crime scene dna and the suspects dna were tested or handled at the same time.

[smedly]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your possible concern would have more plausibility if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

But thats the whole point, how do you know that the B2's DNA was found at the scene when the original is no longer available for inspection? All there is are reports. Its deflection to say it takes a huge conspiracy to switch labels or make mistakes in the original testing of the DNA at the RTP forensics in Bangkok. Without re testing this is only an RTP claim backed up with nothing other than a report.

you are wasting you time mate - I could say a lot more but I'd probably get a ban

[Rykbanlor]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your possible concern would have more plausibility if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

I sweep, to include mishandling of samples along the chain of custody.

As I understand it, these 2 boys were on the list of 10 suspects, along with Mon and NS around the time Panya announced his evidence that pointed towards Thai locals, due to their being near the scene on the evening thus I don't think, if it was a setup, that these 2 were picked randomly. How difficult would it be to miss-label samples at the time of collection, before they were sent off to Bangkok. Who knows what sample was compared with what? Collecting all those DNA samples would have been quite chaotic, all those islanders, thousands of them. Someone with malevolent intentions could easily misslabel any samples they want, before sending them to the lab.

[Linky]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

No you dont have to prove evidence.

At completion of the prosecution evidence you only have to ask the judge to acquit the accused as the prosecution failed to meet the elements of the charges. At no stage of the trial does the accused have to prove innocence to be acquitted.

Thats why judges and juries say people are not guilty.

[Rykbanlor]

JTJ, you still didn't just give a simple yes or no answer to my original post.

Regardless of what you think the Police motivation might have been for doing it, all i asked was for a simple admission that a crime scene can be manipulated, evidence can be planted, samples can be mixed up.

Is this the case, yes or no? There are many documented examples.

[thailandchilli]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your possible concern would have more plausibility if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

But thats the whole point, how do you know that the B2's DNA was found at the scene when the original is no longer available for inspection? All there is are reports. Its deflection to say it takes a huge conspiracy to switch labels or make mistakes in the original testing of the DNA at the RTP forensics in Bangkok. Without re testing this is only an RTP claim backed up with nothing other than a report.

Explained above ... The DNA was tested and the DNA Markers gathered and filed early on from the crime scene. This is what was used to compare with DNA gathered from all the suspects they tested (they took hundreds of samples before matching these two). You don't compare actual DNA to DNA but the DNA results. The DNA results from the DNA gathered from the scene has been in the hands of countless people including those involved in the testing since early on, well before these two were known or suspected. As I stated, it would take a vast conspiracy to remove all traces of those original DNA findings and have them replaced with other findings.

It would be a completely different story if they had these two in custody or even as suspects at the time of the collection of the DNA from the crime scene. This not only would make the set-up theory more plausible but also could be used to provide doubt in contamination if the crime scene dna and the suspects dna were tested or handled at the same time.

Changing a DNA marker is easy even if it was gathered the way you say, which there is absolutely no proof of only your hearsay. Making a mistake gathering the DNA is also possible. But its ok, I see you'll never let this go until the dying end.

[JohnThailandJohn]

JTJ, you still didn't just give a simple yes or no answer to my original post.

Regardless of what you think the Police motivation might have been for doing it, all i asked was for a simple admission that a crime scene can be manipulated, evidence can be planted, samples can be mixed up.

Is this the case, yes or no? There are many documented examples.

Though I didn't see your original request, as you know it is a ridiculous question which you know the answer and can only be asked to suck me into a game ... just as I would know the true answer if I asked you if it is possible these two murdered and raped one tourist and murdered another. Anything is possible but I try to stay with what is plausible vs. theories that are highly implausible as well as those that defy logic as a means to get an answer you want.