ATM fees rise again

[scubascuba3]

Is it always better to get money over the counter then on your card rather than via an atm or is the rate different?

I would expect the FX rate to be the same, counter vs ATM, it depends on your card not ATM/Bank unless you are daft and opt to use their rate at ATM.

I agree however there is one "fly in the ointment" IF you know the daily rate on the day BEFORE withdrawal then you know exactly what rate will be used for a withdrawal via ATM. You cannot be sure which day a Bank counter withdrawal will be processed on (may well be next day or even day after - depends on bank and branch) so the exchange rate used may differ (up or down).

Of course with Thai ATM transaction fees and also your card provider may have ATM charges it would need a large exchange rate swing over a 2-3 period to be maybe better off with ATM withdrawals based upon known rate before withdrawal but big swings in both directions happens quite regularly

Example: Here are NW rates that uses Visa (Europe) daily rates for a recent period. That is a BIG swing over only 5 days (2.3%).

Luckily for me I knew the good rates on 03 Nov & 04 NOV (declared online very early in the day (Thai time) and I noticed a downward trend on xe.com AND poor forecasts for GBP, so I decided to make large ATM withdraws on 03 & 04 Nov.

If a person withdrew a large amount over the counter on 05 Nov seeing its good rate, and the bank took 2 days to process then they'd be very disappointed. ATMs however process IMMEDIATELY withdrawals are made so Exchange Rate is known (but of course you may not be able to withdraw such a larger amount in 1 transaction AND different providers may have other fees. ranging from (ZERO upwards) (and there is always the added danger of card skimming or ATM failure resulting it card retention to consider. I only ever use ATMs inside (ideally) or outside a Bank branch.

03 Nov 2015 ฿54.5470687420

04 Nov 2015 ฿54.5470687420

05 Nov 2015 ฿54.3629862693

06 Nov 2015 ฿53.9450841094

07 Nov 2015 ฿53.3212687920

IMHO each person must decide what is best/convenient/cheapest/least risk FOR THEMSELVES based upon their own card providers rates and charges, Thai Bank ATM fees, their own needs AND their own forecasting and analytic abilities.

i did lots of Clarity card withdrawals at the counter last trip and the rate given was always the mastercard rate for the day of withdrawal rather than days later.Maybe i was lucky. Have you proved for you the rate was day/s later?

[Maestro]

Banking fees to reflect cost of service in move to reduce the use of cash

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/876818-banking-fees-to-reflect-cost-of-service-in-move-to-reduce-the-use-of-cash/?utm_source=LINE&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=news

[gdhm]

Is it always better to get money over the counter then on your card rather than via an atm or is the rate different?

I would expect the FX rate to be the same, counter vs ATM, it depends on your card not ATM/Bank unless you are daft and opt to use their rate at ATM.

I agree however there is one "fly in the ointment" IF you know the daily rate on the day BEFORE withdrawal then you know exactly what rate will be used for a withdrawal via ATM. You cannot be sure which day a Bank counter withdrawal will be processed on (may well be next day or even day after - depends on bank and branch) so the exchange rate used may differ (up or down).

Of course with Thai ATM transaction fees and also your card provider may have ATM charges it would need a large exchange rate swing over a 2-3 period to be maybe better off with ATM withdrawals based upon known rate before withdrawal but big swings in both directions happens quite regularly

Example: Here are NW rates that uses Visa (Europe) daily rates for a recent period. That is a BIG swing over only 5 days (2.3%).

Luckily for me I knew the good rates on 03 Nov & 04 NOV (declared online very early in the day (Thai time) and I noticed a downward trend on xe.com AND poor forecasts for GBP, so I decided to make large ATM withdraws on 03 & 04 Nov.

If a person withdrew a large amount over the counter on 05 Nov seeing its good rate, and the bank took 2 days to process then they'd be very disappointed. ATMs however process IMMEDIATELY withdrawals are made so Exchange Rate is known (but of course you may not be able to withdraw such a larger amount in 1 transaction AND different providers may have other fees. ranging from (ZERO upwards) (and there is always the added danger of card skimming or ATM failure resulting it card retention to consider. I only ever use ATMs inside (ideally) or outside a Bank branch.

03 Nov 2015 ฿54.5470687420

04 Nov 2015 ฿54.5470687420

05 Nov 2015 ฿54.3629862693

06 Nov 2015 ฿53.9450841094

07 Nov 2015 ฿53.3212687920

IMHO each person must decide what is best/convenient/cheapest/least risk FOR THEMSELVES based upon their own card providers rates and charges, Thai Bank ATM fees, their own needs AND their own forecasting and analytic abilities.

i did lots of Clarity card withdrawals at the counter last trip and the rate given was always the mastercard rate for the day of withdrawal rather than days later.Maybe i was lucky. Have you proved for you the rate was day/s later?

I have never made an "over the counter" withdrawals but over recent years I have read posts on Forums saying that for "over the counter" sometimes next may be used. I assume IF next day was to be used and a Thai banking holiday that may explain more than one day later if not processed the same day. Maybe things have changed I have not bene watchign posts on this subject for a few years.

I have no idea why some over the counter may be delayed (if it is still occurring). I can only guess maybe withdrawal late in the day maybe a sub branch I have no idea.

Certainly if I could rely on same day processing I would do over the counter as I would avoid ATM Transaction fees, be able to withdraw more and not risk ATM retaining damaging my card or an ATM skimmer being attached to ATM.

Sorry I cannot be more precise

[ThaiBob]

As of today TMB was still charging 180 baht for an ATM withdrawal here in Pattaya.

[tropo]

As of today TMB was still charging 180 baht for an ATM withdrawal here in Pattaya.

I wonder how long this will last?

Edited December 11, 2015 by tropo

[stament]

Bargain

[VBF]

So, the recap of things re foreign ATM card withdrawals, based on the various posts here, appears to be as follows:

200 baht ATM fee chargers:

Bangkok Bank

Govt Savings Bank

Kasikorn

Krungsri-Ayudhya (larger max withdrawal 30K)

KrungThai

180 baht fee charger:

Thai Military Bank (TMB), (larger max withdrawal 30K) though likely to go to 200b any time now

150 baht fee charger:

AEON (max withdrawal 20K)

There are a few other banks not mentioned here thus far, including CIMB, which also has the larger max 30K withdrawal. But I suspect they're all going to end up at 200 baht per withdrawal fairly soon -- with the possible exception of AEON, which isn't directly a part of the Thai banks cabal.

I might have missed it somewhere in this topic, but anyone know about SCB's charge?

Also, I have an account at SCB - are they likely to be helpful if i want to withdraw (say) 50,000 Baht over the counter on my UK DEBIT card, and pay it straight into my SCB account rather taking the cash?

Anyone have any recent experiences at SCB please?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I can't say for certain, but I'd assume SCB is at 200b right now in terms of their ATM fee for using foreign cards for withdrawals -- the same as most other Thai bank chains.

In terms of counter withdrawals, I can't say whether or not any particular SCB branch would accept a foreign DEBIT card for counter withdrawals, though they very well might.

I say they very well might because, in the past, unlike most other Thai banks, SCB supposedly had a separate and lower exchange rate for their counter withdrawals compared to the normal VISA or MC rate you'd get from their ATM withdrawals. So that would definitely be something to check, if you were considering SCB for a counter withdrawal.

[stament]

Do you mean a lower rate which doesn't favour or does as difficult to understand which you mean?

Thanks

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

A lower or WORSE rate, as in, you get less baht for your foreign currency, than you'd get if you received the normal exchange rate used by VISA and MC networks for ATM transactions, which is also the same rate that MOST Thai banks use for counter withdrawals.

If you look at the SCB exchange rates web page, down at the bottom, last time I checked, they have a special and WORSE rate listed for credit card cash advance transactions.

So, the questions re your question are:

1. Will SCB do counter withdrawals for debit cards? (I believe they likely will).

2. What exchange rate will they use for a debit card counter withdrawal? (I'm guessing their credit card cash advance rate, but that's just a guess. I don't know for certain.)

Just advising to be cautious with SCB when it comes to their counter withdrawal exchange rates.

Edited December 11, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[stament]

Thanks for clarifying my understanding of your post. Looks like we should avoid SCB then

[Pib]

I not sure what exchange rates SCB provides for a counter withdrawal using a "debit" card....I think it's the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate; however, but, based on a number of SCB related posts earlier this year SCB supposedly stopped doing counter withdrawals for debit cards...they supposedly sent a memo to all their branches saying no-can-do a counter withdrawals anymore with a debit card...must use debit card in ATM.

However, SCB still does over the counter withdrawals for "credit" cards but at their lower/ripoff DCC rate which they post, not the the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate. I think some one posted a Thai language version of the memo but for the life of me I can't find it now....maybe I was dreaming.

And then another recent poster said he did counter withdrawal using a debit card at a SCB branch but they charged him a Bt180 fee. See the past post below for more info.

Some other Thai banks also don't allow use of a debit card for a counter withdrawal but will gladly do a credit card at the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate, but it seems to be branch by branch think...like some Bangkok Bank branches will do a debit card counter withdrawal and others will not based on my personal experience and/or other recent posts.

SCB don't seem to be used my many farangs...hard to get some good crossfeed on SCB. Seems most farangs nowdays deal with Bangkok Bank, KBank, and increasingly Krungsri.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/799552-uk-debit-visa-cardmoney-withdrawal-from-scb-thailand/?p=9060290

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/799552-uk-debit-visa-cardmoney-withdrawal-from-scb-thailand/?p=9063103

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/799552-uk-debit-visa-cardmoney-withdrawal-from-scb-thailand/?p=9063103

[VBF]

Thanks TallGuyJohninBKK and Pib.

Pib - your links go to a thread in which I was partcipating back in February and had forgotten about! Oops!

[Eddie The Eagle]

Sorry if someone already said it ,i didnt bother to read all posts, but try Citibank . Atm fee = 0

They have a branch on Sukhumvit at Asok bts (the one where soi cowboy starts)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Re Citibank Thailand ATMs and the idea of no fee, I think that depends on the country where your Citibank card was issued.

AFAIK, Citibank Thailand ATMs charge the Thai withdrawal fee against Citibank ATM cards issued in the U.S. And they certainly charge the Thai ATM withdrawal fee again ATM cards from other banks (other than Citibank) located in the U.S.

[Pib]

Yea, it all depends on what country your Citibank card was issued in....it appears generally European Citibank issued cards don't incur the Bt200 fee, but if from most other countries Citibank issued debit cards do incur the fee. Below snapshot is from a website where some guy has put some effort in trying to determine what Citibank cards incurs the fee.

And heck, there are only 3 Citibank branches and 2 other Citibank ATM locations in all of Thailand (all in central Bangkok). So unless you happen to have a Citibank card issued from certain countries and also happen to be in central Bangkok trying to avoid the Bt200 ATM fee won't help.

[tropo]

TMB still 180 baht today!

[mahtin]

Regarding Bangkok Bank's blank screen instead of the 200 Baht acceptance screen, pressing the second button up from the bottom on the right hand side has worked for me several times.

Being in the middle of nowhere, options are reduced. It's the only 25,000 and nowhere gives more. All charge 200.

Family obligations prevent my moving to Pattaya...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

... I now know the Krungsri branch I've been using for my counter withdrawal (use the Schwab chipped card in their POS machine) will also do counter withdrawals for debit cards when combining that with my loathing of giving the Thai banksters a Bt200 ATM fee even though my card reimburses that to me, my curiosity will have to get higher for me to do that additional ATM testing. Plus the ladies that handle my counter withdrawals at this Krungsri branch are sooooooooo pretty.

Re the issue of trying to do a counter withdrawal at Krungsri Bank using a foreign debit card, had an interesting experience with that today that ended up relating more to my home U.S. credit union than it did to Krungsri.

I wanted to do a counter withdrawal with my U.S. credit union VISA debit card, non-chipped variety, that has a $1000 daily limit for both ATM withdrawals and POS transactions. Went to the Krungsri branch at the EmQuartier Mall in Bangkok, went thru the normal routine, and each time they tried to swipe my card to run the transaction for an amount well under my card limits, it came back "denied" on the card machine. Of course, the bank staff didn't know why and couldn't explain what the message on the card machine meant.

So, later, when I got home, I called the credit union that issued my VISA debit card, and had them check on the attempted transaction I'd made earlier in the day. Turns out, it was my credit union blocked/denied the transaction simply because it was a relatively large amount (more than 30K baht) being attempted from outside the U.S. The credit union confirmed, I should be able to use my debit card for counter withdrawals, and they confirmed the amount I was attempting to withdraw had not exceeded any of my daily limits.

However, in order to avoid that problem, the credit union advised, I'd need to call them or use their website to file a "traveling notice" first, and then the CSR assured me that my counter withdrawal transaction would have gone thru without any problem. The credit union rep also told me over the phone that the transaction Krungsri had attempted on my behalf came across as an attempted POS transaction, so added that from the credit union's end, it would have been my POS daily limit that applied, not my ATM daily limit.

At any rate, I was hoping to find out whether my local Krungsri branch (today using EmQuartier as a trial) would allow foreign debit card counter withdrawals -- the same as Pib's experience reported above. And I guess, in the end, the answer seems to be that yes, Krunsri was willing to do a counter withdrawal with my foreign debit card. But of course, what I really ended up finding out was that I'm also going to have to do online "travel notices" in the future if I want to use that particular credit union's debit card for large Thailand counter withdrawals.

Apart from that, though, the experience at Krunsri at Emquarter wasn't exactly great either. Once my wife and I got to the teller counter, my wife explained to the teller in Thai just what I wanted to do, and I'd made clear to my wife ahead of time just exactly what was afoot, so she was clear on that. But the teller's first response was to look at my debit card, and then tell my wife NO, she couldn't do a cash advance on that card.

At that point, I stepped in and found the teller spoke some English, and so conversed with her directly, and told her I'd done the same transaction before at the bank without any problem (that is, assuming my name was really Pib). So then the teller called over a colleague, they conversed a bit, and finally came back to me with the opposite answer that YES, they could do the counter withdrawal. (A couple of times along the way, the teller also kind of asked why I didn't just to and use their ATMs instead, but I replied that the amount I wanted was larger than their 30K ATM limit. In the end, she finally dropped the ATM issue and advised that we'd have to go over to the new accounts desk area for the staff there to handle the passport photocopying etc etc. for the counter withdrawal. So, just from the Krungsri end of things there at that branch, not exactly a clean, clear process.

But at least, for purposes of this thread, it does indeed seem that Krungsri is willing to do counter withdrawals using foreign debit cards, even if it sometimes may take some insistence, and making sure your home country card-issuing bank isn't going to block the transaction.

Edited January 3, 2016 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

TallGuy,

Yea, always got to look out for the daily limits set by the home country card-issuing bank/credit union. A lot of people blame the Thai bank or the Visa/Mastercard network when in fact a person has run afoul of some policy/limit set by their home country card-issuing bank/credit union/card company.

The first time I used my PenFed "credit" card at a Bangkok Bank branch for a cash advance (by the way the PenFed credit card is no foreign transaction fee and no cash fee card as you know but others may not) I did not know for sure what the daily limit was for a cash advance. I "assumed" it was approx one-third of my total line of credit since several of my other credit card statements say the portion of the total line of credit is approx 1/3 of that, but my PenFed statements do not have such a statement. So, I "assumed" my cash limit was probably equal to the total line of credit which was pretty high. Boy, was that a wrong assumption.

I asked the counter clerk for Bt100K (approx $2,775), she ran the card through the POS machine and it came back with an error message of "Over Limit." OK, I'm embarrassed and don't know what to say for about 2 seconds while my brain cogs turn...then the brain cogs make my mouth say "Can You Please Try Bt65K" (approx $1800) and the transaction processed no problem. I don't know why I said Bt65K, I just luckily said it. That night I sent an email to PenFed asking about the daily cash withdrawal limits and next day I have a response of $2,000 at a financial institution (a.k.a., counter withdrawal cash advance) and $1,000 at an ATM...so, I could actually get up to $3,000 at a bank combined between the counter withdrawal and ATM withdrawal...but no reimbursement of the Thai ATM Bt200 foreign card fee. Come back the next day and do it all over again if desired until you max out your total line of credit. And I always prepay the cash advance to avoid any interest charge.

Regarding the credit union saying the transaction appeared as a POS transaction I expect that is because the transaction (cash or purchase) was processed on a POS machine versus and ATM.

At the Krungsri branch I use for cash advances when get a queue ticket from their machine at the door entrance you don't pick any service that done by the counter clerk. Instead, one of the selections includes the service of "cash advance" that ends up getting your queue number called by one of the desk reps, not a counter rep.

The first time I did the cash advance at this branch I just let the rep standing at the door assist in getting my queue number and she didn't understand what I really wanted and just pushed a queue ticket selection that ended up in being called by a counter clerk. When I got called to the counter clerk and explained what I wanted (ie., do a cash advance from the card) the clerk just sent me over to the desk rep who handled cash advances. Now when I go to do the cash advance I know which queue ticket selection to select to ensure I end-up with a desk rep.

Now at the Bangkok Bank branch I use to use I don't see any selection on their queue ticket issuing machine for cash advances...so I just get a queue ticket to see a counter rep...and at this branch at least the counter rep handles the cash advance transactions also.

It will vary from branch to branch as what section/rep within the branch will do a cash advance, even if they will do a cash advance for a foreign card, selections offered by the queue ticket machines, etc. Some will do a cash advance/counter withdrawal for a debit card, some will not. I think using a credit card is almost always accepted, but unless you have a no cash advance fee credit card you probably don't want to go that route, but I know you do have such a credit card if wanting to use a credit card also.

Thai banking is always full of surprises....combined those surprises with the surprises from your home country card-issuing bank and it can indeed turn into frustration until you figure out how to avoid the surprises. And sometimes the only way to uncover the surprises is to actually run the cash advance obstacle course to see how well you do..and sometime the obstacle course may change. Preaching to the choir I know since you have been running the obstacle course and taught me how to avoid some of the land mines.

Once again, I'm just preaching to the choir as you do also to provide crossfeed. Hopefully it will help others as they run the ever changing doing-certain-financial-transactions-in-Thailand obstacle course.

Cheers,

Pib

[JimGant]

Regarding the credit union saying the transaction appeared as a POS transaction I expect that is because the transaction (cash or purchase) was processed on a POS machine versus and ATM.

Pib, did you get the Visa on-line rate (i.e., the in-effect real time rate), same as with an ATM transaction? Or did you get the off-line rate, usually tomorrow's published rate, which is used for POS transactions with merchants?

Just curious, 'cause this is not a classic POS transaction, since the bank receives a fee for this service (reverse interchange fee), not charged a fee, as would a merchant be. But, by using the POS machine, does this transaction now ride the off-line pipeline? Or, by being encoded "cash advance" vice "sale," does it instead ride the on-line ATM network? Again, no big deal (unless you know the dollar is going to tank tomorrow).

Also, do you know when Visa's daily rate now goes into effect here in Thailand? I know it used to be around noon (0001 New York time). But of late, this seems to have been moved up on this side of the Dateline.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

TallGuy,

Yea, always got to look out for the daily limits set by the home country card-issuing bank/credit union. A lot of people blame the Thai bank or the Visa/Mastercard network when in fact a person has run afoul of some policy/limit set by their home country card-issuing bank/credit union/card company.

Pib, just to reinforce what I wrote above, the counter withdrawal I attempted at Krungsri was LESS THAN the various account daily withdrawal limits on my credit union account, both ATM withdrawal and POS limits.

The issue, according to my credit union, was NOT that the amount I was requesting via counter withdrawal was above my limits. It was that it was a sizable foreign POS withdrawal and I hadn't filed a "travel notice" with them beforehand.

That was for an attempted POS transaction, which is the way my attempted counter withdrawal was processed. However, that didn't stop the credit union's system from then allowing me without hassle to do a 30K ATM withdrawal 5 mins later from the same Krungsri branch's ATM.

[55Jay]

Haven't run into that (yet) with Schwab Debit during my OTC W/Ds, but a few years ago a number of times, Capital One/MasterCard have blocked transactions under their fraud watch program. Had to call and unlock the card.

Cap 1 seems to have done away with that approach as, more recently, I received a flash email summarizing a flagged, pending charge, with two on-screen buttons to choose in response - Green one "Everything's OK" or red button "No, this is not my transaction".

Pretty handy, gets the job done w/o the PITA of having a transaction blocked at point of sale.

Edited January 4, 2016 by 55Jay

[scubascuba3]

People on this thread aren't the best at summarising.

[Pib]

Regarding the credit union saying the transaction appeared as a POS transaction I expect that is because the transaction (cash or purchase) was processed on a POS machine versus and ATM.

Pib, did you get the Visa on-line rate (i.e., the in-effect real time rate), same as with an ATM transaction? Or did you get the off-line rate, usually tomorrow's published rate, which is used for POS transactions with merchants?

Just curious, 'cause this is not a classic POS transaction, since the bank receives a fee for this service (reverse interchange fee), not charged a fee, as would a merchant be. But, by using the POS machine, does this transaction now ride the off-line pipeline? Or, by being encoded "cash advance" vice "sale," does it instead ride the on-line ATM network? Again, no big deal (unless you know the dollar is going to tank tomorrow).

Also, do you know when Visa's daily rate now goes into effect here in Thailand? I know it used to be around noon (0001 New York time). But of late, this seems to have been moved up on this side of the Dateline.

Whenever I do a counter cash advance with my credit card I get the next business day rate...when the transaction posts....I don't get the rate on the date of the actual transaction. The double messaging transaction settlement approach is used.

Whenever I use a counter cash advance with my debit card (only one time so far) I got the current day/actual transaction date Visa rate just like I get in ATMs....the single messaging settlement approach. But that advance was done on a Saturday where the exchange rate stayed the same Sat thru Mon...didn't change until Tuesday. Since I've only done one counter cash advance with my debit card so far and since that was on the weekend I don't want to bet the farm you get the transaction date rate. But if I had a gun to my head and had to bet the farm pending further testing I would say you get the actual transaction date rate when using a debit card for ATM or counter cash advance. Unless maybe some European bank issued debit cards which apparently use the double messaging approach like credit card transaction which means you get the next business day rate. More testing required to confirm.

Regarding when the Visa rate changes...what world time zone it's tied to if tied to a specific time zone. Well, I don't know anymore. It use to be tied to U.S. Eastern Time at least for U.S. debit cards...and I confirmed that many times with my own ATM withdrawals, but I don't think it is anymore. For example, I did two Thai bank ATM withdrawals on 13 Nov 15...one approx 15 minutes before high noon Thailand time which would be 15 minutes before midnight previous day (12 Nov) U.S. ET and one approx 15 minutes after high noon Thailand time which would be 15 minutes after midnight U.S. ET same day (13 Nov). I got the same Visa rate...the rate for 13 Nov for both withdrawals So maybe it is now tied to the date/time zone the transaction is accomplished in.

[JimGant]

Whenever I use a counter cash advance with my debit card (only one time so far) I got the current day/actual transaction date Visa rate just like I get in ATMs....the single messaging settlement approach.

Presumably, then, you had to enter a pin number(?)...otherwise it would have defaulted to "credit" mode (swipe and sign), thus double messaging/off-line/next day FX rate (just as if you had inserted it in Big C's POS machine, where it defaults to "credit" mode).

[Pib]

Whenever I use a counter cash advance with my debit card (only one time so far) I got the current day/actual transaction date Visa rate just like I get in ATMs....the single messaging settlement approach.

Presumably, then, you had to enter a pin number(?)...otherwise it would have defaulted to "credit" mode (swipe and sign), thus double messaging/off-line/next day FX rate (just as if you had inserted it in Big C's POS machine, where it defaults to "credit" mode).

Nope...no PIN required...just sign the receipt just like doing a purchase.

[Pib]

Take a read of single and dual messaging for debit and credit transactions (PIN or signature) at this website: Link. Even talks European issued cards which handle some transactions differently.

[JimGant]

Interesting link, Pib. Thanx.

The second payment system is named single-message and is designed for automated teller machines (ATMs) and point-of-sale (POS) debit transactions. In most circumstances, this network requires cardholders to authenticate the transaction by entering a pre-selected personal identification number (PIN).

You got the single messaging approach -- without having to use a PIN. Must have something to do with the POS machine transaction encoded "cash" vice "sale."

In the U.S., all MasterCard and Visa transactions where a PIN is used for cardholder authentication purposes are single-message transactions. (Europe uses dual messaging for all card transactions, irrespective of whether they are authenticated using a signature or with a PIN.) - See more at: http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/submission-clearing-and-settlement-of-credit-card-transactions/#sthash.TCczE4PC.dpuf

Hmmm. Since dual messaging is off-line, non real time -- this seems to say our European cousins get tomorrow's FX rate when they use their Visa or MC debit/ATM cards in a Thai ATM machine..... No big deal, especially when the baht is heading south. However, I kinda like knowing what my ATM transaction cost me in real time.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As best as I can recall, from my recent Bangkok Bank counter withdrawal using a credit card, it was just swipe and sign. I don't recall any PIN being involved.

And, as I mentioned above, when I talked with my credit union re the failed debit card counter withdrawal the other day, the CU advised that the failed transaction (which failed because they blocked it as a suspect foreign charge with me not having done any travel advisory) came across as a POS one. And Krungsri swiped my debit card without asking me to enter any PIN.