Koh Tao murders appeal reveals shocking new evidence suggesting unfair trial and wrongful conviction

[stander]

"Go after" -- is that a technical term? How do they go after anyone when anybody who knows anything as we were advised above would be scared to come forward lest they be wiped out by those who are being gone after? A good start to go after those the real killers would be to find someone who actually can say that they saw the real killers on the island there on the night in question but that ain't happened yet.

I wrote last spring 2015, before the trial, that the real killers may be not the 2 Burmese who have been now convicted of the crimes and not the family who 'lives across the street' from where the bodies of the 2 unfortunate victims were found, but possibly persons belonging to a rival mafia family on the island or possibly other tourists who went back to their hotel and calmly checked out the next morning and left on the early ferry before the ferries were locked down.

Well done suggesting that the real killers might not be the 2 Burmese. A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur.

Nice try in suggesting a number of other possibilities that take the heat off certain other suspects, who have never really been cleared. Just that the investigators have avoided / been warned off using anything that could implicate them. The RTP and the prosecutors (and a few on this forum) have done all they can to keep the heat off the original suspects for whom, it was stated, they had evidence to prove they were involved including CCTV recordings.

The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon. He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao. He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said. He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok. He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/63714

"A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur."

I am on the right side with the 8%.

[JLCrab]

So we're back to square one where a member or members of an influential local family murdered 2 persons who were registered guests at the family owned resort and left the bodies there practically on their front porch because the family is so influential that they had no doubt nobody would ever charge them or hold them responsible for the crimes ... and this all came about because as posited by the 92% that the female victim spurned the advances of a member of this same influential family -- one of the above posters I believe called this not a crime of passion but one of revenge -- although not one person has been able to say that they saw any such spurning of advances taking place.

Meanwhile, the next point of order is a reply or response, if any, from the Prosecution to the appeal of the defense to which the Prosecution may quote the response of US Army Gen. Anthony McAuliffe at the 1944 Battle of Bastogne when given a surrender ultimatum:

NUTS!

[Bkk Brian]

Must be something to do with the hats?

[Aj Mick]

So we're back to square one where a member or members of an influential local family murdered 2 persons who were registered guests at the family owned resort and left the bodies there practically on their front porch because the family is so influential that they had no doubt nobody would ever charge them or hold them responsible for the crimes ...

Well done! That seems about it in a nutshell.

Similar has happened before in Thailand, unfortunately. Even more unfortunately is bound to happen again, none of which does anything for Thailand's reputation in the eyes of the world. Getting this case properly sorted could be a big step in a better direction.

[StealthEnergiser]

"Go after" -- is that a technical term? How do they go after anyone when anybody who knows anything as we were advised above would be scared to come forward lest they be wiped out by those who are being gone after? A good start to go after those the real killers would be to find someone who actually can say that they saw the real killers on the island there on the night in question but that ain't happened yet.

I wrote last spring 2015, before the trial, that the real killers may be not the 2 Burmese who have been now convicted of the crimes and not the family who 'lives across the street' from where the bodies of the 2 unfortunate victims were found, but possibly persons belonging to a rival mafia family on the island or possibly other tourists who went back to their hotel and calmly checked out the next morning and left on the early ferry before the ferries were locked down.

Well done suggesting that the real killers might not be the 2 Burmese. A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur.

Nice try in suggesting a number of other possibilities that take the heat off certain other suspects, who have never really been cleared. Just that the investigators have avoided / been warned off using anything that could implicate them. The RTP and the prosecutors (and a few on this forum) have done all they can to keep the heat off the original suspects for whom, it was stated, they had evidence to prove they were involved including CCTV recordings.

The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon. He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao. He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said. He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok. He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/63714

"A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur."

I am on the right side with the 8%.

How could you possibly find them guilty have you read any of the defence points ?

What do you disagree with ?

"DNA files presented had the accused names on them, rather than a proper file reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of whose DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

The DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused. The police originally claimed the murder weapon had no DNA evidence.

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report."

The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

[stander]

"Go after" -- is that a technical term? How do they go after anyone when anybody who knows anything as we were advised above would be scared to come forward lest they be wiped out by those who are being gone after? A good start to go after those the real killers would be to find someone who actually can say that they saw the real killers on the island there on the night in question but that ain't happened yet.

I wrote last spring 2015, before the trial, that the real killers may be not the 2 Burmese who have been now convicted of the crimes and not the family who 'lives across the street' from where the bodies of the 2 unfortunate victims were found, but possibly persons belonging to a rival mafia family on the island or possibly other tourists who went back to their hotel and calmly checked out the next morning and left on the early ferry before the ferries were locked down.

Well done suggesting that the real killers might not be the 2 Burmese. A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur.

Nice try in suggesting a number of other possibilities that take the heat off certain other suspects, who have never really been cleared. Just that the investigators have avoided / been warned off using anything that could implicate them. The RTP and the prosecutors (and a few on this forum) have done all they can to keep the heat off the original suspects for whom, it was stated, they had evidence to prove they were involved including CCTV recordings.

The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon. He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao. He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said. He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok. He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/63714

"A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur."

I am on the right side with the 8%.

How could you possibly find them guilty have you read any of the defence points ?

What do you disagree with ?

"DNA files presented had the accused names on them, rather than a proper file reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of whose DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

The DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused. The police originally claimed the murder weapon had no DNA evidence.

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report."

The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me.

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

Also as a proponent of the death penalty, it would be hypocritical of me not to want to see the sentence carried out, after all avenues of appeal have failed.

[StealthEnergiser]

@stander

So the D.NA defence points are irrelevant to you?

[Aj Mick]

"A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur."

I am on the right side with the 8%.

How could you possibly find them guilty have you read any of the defence points ?

What do you disagree with ?

"DNA files presented had the accused names on them, rather than a proper file reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of whose DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

The DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused. The police originally claimed the murder weapon had no DNA evidence.

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report."

The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me.

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

Also as a proponent of the death penalty, it would be hypocritical of me not to want to see the sentence carried out, after all avenues of appeal have failed.

You seem exceptionality well informed. Does the the doubt Hanna's family have expressed about the case and the convictions say much?

[stander]

"A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur."

I am on the right side with the 8%.

How could you possibly find them guilty have you read any of the defence points ?

What do you disagree with ?

"DNA files presented had the accused names on them, rather than a proper file reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of whose DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

The DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused. The police originally claimed the murder weapon had no DNA evidence.

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report."

The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me.

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

Also as a proponent of the death penalty, it would be hypocritical of me not to want to see the sentence carried out, after all avenues of appeal have failed.

You seem exceptionality well informed. Does the the doubt Hanna's family have expressed about the case and the convictions say much?

Doubt or no doubt, it's irrelevant, they have been found guilty in a court of law, with the right to appeal, that’s the reality.

[Khun Han]

Stealth, Mick: all us honest posters know this case would never even have made it to court in the first place in a first world country. But the internet postings of certain people might well have warranted a police investigation and possible prosecutions for perverting the course of justice once the real murderers had been nailed.

You're wrestling with pigs. I've given that one up as a bad job.

[stander]

There are several poster here who claim to know who the "real" killers are. So why don't they have the courage of their convictions and go and make a statement to the police. If they feel threatened then go first to their Embassy and make the statement and request that they assist in forwarding the it on to the relevant authorities.

Surely that is the right thing to do?

[JLCrab]

So we're back to square one where a member or members of an influential local family murdered 2 persons who were registered guests at the family owned resort and left the bodies there practically on their front porch because the family is so influential that they had no doubt nobody would ever charge them or hold them responsible for the crimes ...

Well done! That seems about it in a nutshell.

<snip>

Which is all fine except, in order to have had the opportunity to have committed the crime, you had to have been there.

[stander]

@stander

So the D.NA defence points are irrelevant to you?

The Judges are not forensic scientists, those reports are highly complicated, and what they were presented with was adequate- they accepted it as such as Thai law provides for. It was up to the defense AT THAT time to disprove the findings, but they did not

[sweatalot]

The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me.

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

Also as a proponent of the death penalty, it would be hypocritical of me not to want to see the sentence carried out, after all avenues of appeal have failed.

You seem exceptionality well informed. Does the the doubt Hanna's family have expressed about the case and the convictions say much?

Doubt or no doubt, it's irrelevant, they have been found guilty in a court of law, with the right to appeal, that’s the reality.

The Nazi court with the infamous Roland Freisler found guilty everybody who was not a Nazi and convicted them to death..

So the convictions of this "court of law" are relevant. To doubt them does not matter because they have been found guilty by a court of law.

Ahh ... I see

[stander]

"A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur."

I am on the right side with the 8%.

How could you possibly find them guilty have you read any of the defence points ?

What do you disagree with ?

"DNA files presented had the accused names on them, rather than a proper file reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of whose DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

The DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused. The police originally claimed the murder weapon had no DNA evidence.

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report."

The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me.

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

Also as a proponent of the death penalty, it would be hypocritical of me not to want to see the sentence carried out, after all avenues of appeal have failed.

You seem exceptionality well informed. Does the the doubt Hanna's family have expressed about the case and the convictions say much?

I could ask you the same of the Miller family who have expressed satisfaction.

http://www.telegraph...r-Thailand.html

[Aj Mick]

So we're back to square one where a member or members of an influential local family murdered 2 persons who were registered guests at the family owned resort and left the bodies there practically on their front porch because the family is so influential that they had no doubt nobody would ever charge them or hold them responsible for the crimes ...

Well done! That seems about it in a nutshell.

<snip>

Which is all fine except, in order to have had the opportunity to have committed the crime, you had to have been there.

They were there, and the police at one stage had evidence to prove they were. It's just that somewhere in the hand over to a new man in charge of the investigation it seems to have gone missing, as has a lot of other verifiable evidence sine then…. so once again, back to square one, as you suggested.

[Aj Mick]

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

You seem exceptionality well informed. Does the the doubt Hanna's family have expressed about the case and the convictions say much?

I could ask you the same of the Miller family who have expressed satisfaction.

http://www.telegraph...r-Thailand.html

The Miller family certainly found closure in the case RTP and prosecution presented and its outcome, with some reservation about the death penalty. They seem to have accepted what the 8% have accepted (in some cases) and disingenuously support in the case of others (who would seem to have vested interests).

Now, over to you to answer the question I put.

[JLCrab]

So we're back to square one where a member or members of an influential local family murdered 2 persons who were registered guests at the family owned resort and left the bodies there practically on their front porch because the family is so influential that they had no doubt nobody would ever charge them or hold them responsible for the crimes ...

Well done! That seems about it in a nutshell.

<snip>

Which is all fine except, in order to have had the opportunity to have committed the crime, you had to have been there.

They were there, and the police at one stage had evidence to prove they were. It's just that somewhere in the hand over to a new man in charge of the investigation it seems to have gone missing, as has a lot of other verifiable evidence sine then…. so once again, back to square one, as you suggested.

The theologians call it a "Leap of Faith" which Wikipedia defines as "...the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence."

[stander]

"A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur."

I am on the right side with the 8%.

How could you possibly find them guilty have you read any of the defence points ?

What do you disagree with ?

"DNA files presented had the accused names on them, rather than a proper file reference number. This is not possible without pre-knowledge of whose DNA the sample being tested belonged to.

The DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused. The police originally claimed the murder weapon had no DNA evidence.

The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing. Including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report."

The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

The prosecution presented their case, the defence presented their case and in the end the they were found guilty as charged, that’s enough for me.

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

Also as a proponent of the death penalty, it would be hypocritical of me not to want to see the sentence carried out, after all avenues of appeal have failed.

You seem exceptionality well informed. Does the the doubt Hanna's family have expressed about the case and the convictions say much?

Both families have the right to express doubt or no doubt about the conviction, but the judgement past down by the court is the only one which is relevant.

[Aj Mick]

There are several poster here who claim to know who the "real" killers are. So why don't they have the courage of their convictions and go and make a statement to the police. If they feel threatened then go first to their Embassy and make the statement and request that they assist in forwarding the it on to the relevant authorities.

Surely that is the right thing to do?

Shouldn't have to. The police, and a few on this forum know who they are, and they have never really been cleared. However, for reasons best known to themselves (aka vested interests) they have chosen to fit evidence that is flimsy, if not fabricated, to a pair of Burmese scapegoats.

Have you ever been to Thailand? If you have, you'll realise that there's a lot of it about…..

[stander]

The Miller family are also convinced of their guilt and that says a lot.

You seem exceptionality well informed. Does the the doubt Hanna's family have expressed about the case and the convictions say much?

I could ask you the same of the Miller family who have expressed satisfaction.

http://www.telegraph...r-Thailand.html

The Miller family certainly found closure in the case RTP and prosecution presented and its outcome, with some reservation about the death penalty. They seem to have accepted what the 8% have accepted (in some cases) and disingenuously support in the case of others (who would seem to have vested interests).

Now, over to you to answer the question I put.

Both families have the right to express doubt or no doubt about the conviction, but the ruling of the court is the only one which is relevant.

[Aj Mick]

Which is all fine except, in order to have had the opportunity to have committed the crime, you had to have been there.

They were there, and the police at one stage had evidence to prove they were. It's just that somewhere in the hand over to a new man in charge of the investigation it seems to have gone missing, as has a lot of other verifiable evidence sine then…. so once again, back to square one, as you suggested.

The theologians call it a "Leap of Faith" which Wikipedia defines as "...the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence."

Which is what can be said about a lot of the so called evidence that was used to convict the 2 Burmese.

[stander]

There are several poster here who claim to know who the "real" killers are. So why don't they have the courage of their convictions and go and make a statement to the police. If they feel threatened then go first to their Embassy and make the statement and request that they assist in forwarding the it on to the relevant authorities.

Surely that is the right thing to do?

Shouldn't have to. The police, and a few on this forum know who they are, and they have never really been cleared. However, for reasons best known to themselves (aka vested interests) they have chosen to fit evidence that is flimsy, if not fabricated, to a pair of Burmese scapegoats.

Have you ever been to Thailand? If you have, you'll realise that there's a lot of it about…..

I have lived and worked in Thailand since 1983. I’ve been involved, with my company in both litigation and arbitration on three occasions in that time and I have found the Thai justice system to be fair., but that is irrelevant

[JLCrab]

Which is all fine except, in order to have had the opportunity to have committed the crime, you had to have been there.

They were there, and the police at one stage had evidence to prove they were. It's just that somewhere in the hand over to a new man in charge of the investigation it seems to have gone missing, as has a lot of other verifiable evidence sine then…. so once again, back to square one, as you suggested.

The theologians call it a "Leap of Faith" which Wikipedia defines as "...the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence."

Which is what can be said about a lot of the so called evidence that was used to convict the 2 Burmese.

Maybe so but I was addressing your hocus-pocus about someone being there when you cannot find one person who was there that evening who will say publicly or even anonymously on CSILA etc. that they saw him there at the C Bar or anywhere else on the island that evening.

I have never said that I agreed with the decision of the Samui Court but have only tried to understand how and why they reached the decision that they did.

[Aj Mick]

There are several poster here who claim to know who the "real" killers are. So why don't they have the courage of their convictions and go and make a statement to the police. If they feel threatened then go first to their Embassy and make the statement and request that they assist in forwarding the it on to the relevant authorities.

Surely that is the right thing to do?

Shouldn't have to. The police, and a few on this forum know who they are, and they have never really been cleared. However, for reasons best known to themselves (aka vested interests) they have chosen to fit evidence that is flimsy, if not fabricated, to a pair of Burmese scapegoats.

Have you ever been to Thailand? If you have, you'll realise that there's a lot of it about…..

I have lived and worked in Thailand since 1983. I’ve been involved, with my company in both litigation and arbitration on three occasions in that time and I have found the Thai justice system to be fair., but that is irrelevant

Well done; you know how to work the system, just like a good few well connected others. In my experience (in Thailand about 15 of the past 35 years) and observation the Thai courts can do a good job of arbitration. Litigation, maybe, but it is often more a battle of attrition.

But to suggest that they do a good job of criminal law is being disingenuous, and you must know it. There are more than a few cases like this that have been found wanting, and scapegoats have been sent down.

[stander]

There are several poster here who claim to know who the "real" killers are. So why don't they have the courage of their convictions and go and make a statement to the police. If they feel threatened then go first to their Embassy and make the statement and request that they assist in forwarding the it on to the relevant authorities.

Surely that is the right thing to do?

Shouldn't have to. The police, and a few on this forum know who they are, and they have never really been cleared. However, for reasons best known to themselves (aka vested interests) they have chosen to fit evidence that is flimsy, if not fabricated, to a pair of Burmese scapegoats.

Have you ever been to Thailand? If you have, you'll realise that there's a lot of it about…..

I have lived and worked in Thailand since 1983. I’ve been involved, with my company in both litigation and arbitration on three occasions in that time and I have found the Thai justice system to be fair., but that is irrelevant

Well done; you know how to work the system, just like a good few well connected others. In my experience (in Thailand about 15 of the past 35 years) and observation the Thai courts can do a good job of arbitration. Litigation, maybe, but it is often more a battle of attrition.

But to suggest that they do a good job of criminal law is being disingenuous, and you must know it. There are more than a few cases like this that have been found wanting, and scapegoats have been sent down.

I certainly agree, arbitration is a battle of attrition. As for criminal law, I disagree with you on being disingenuous and in the case they got it right.

[StealthEnergiser]

@stander

So the D.NA defence points are irrelevant to you?

The Judges are not forensic scientists, those reports are highly complicated, and what they were presented with was adequate- they accepted it as such as Thai law provides for. It was up to the defense AT THAT time to disprove the findings, but they did not

You say in this case they got it right what strong piece of evidence convinced you of that ?

[Aj Mick]

The theologians call it a "Leap of Faith" which Wikipedia defines as "...the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence."

Which is what can be said about a lot of the so called evidence that was used to convict the 2 Burmese.

Maybe so but I was addressing your hocus-pocus about someone being there when you cannot find one person who was there that evening who will say publicly or even anonymously on CSILA etc. that they saw him there at the C Bar or anywhere else on the island that evening.

I have never said that I agreed with the decision of the Samui Court but have only tried to understand how and why they reached the decision that they did.

Nothing hocus-pocus about someone being somewhere, and there being evidence to prove it. His family and friends are not going to corroborate the evidence. Migrant staff at the resort and nearby would not dare to. And tourists, who have long since gone home, would probably not know one Thai man from another. Neither would they dare to return to make a statement or testify.

The hocus-pocus started when someone of interest popped up a week or so later claiming not to have been there, with dubious looking evidence in support. Then when the initial head of the investigation was taken off the case ("promoted" aka kicked up stairs) it continued apace.

[JLCrab]

In USA or Thailand, judges or juries don't like it when they think that they are not getting straight answers to straight questions. And IMHO the non-straight answers started here on 26 DEC 2014 and were a large part of the 24 DEC 2015 Samui Court decision:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11313714/Koh-Tao-murders-suspects-in-killing-of-David-Miller-and-Hannah-Witheridge-say-they-were-framed.html

[Aj Mick]

I certainly agree, arbitration is a battle of attrition. As for criminal law, I disagree with you on being disingenuous and in the case they got it right.

Now, if you could please inform us why?