Bringing Thaksin To Account

Old Man River · December 20, 2006

Actually it won't be the Thai government that would bring the case to ICC, so the normal logic does not apply. Human rights activists have managed to bring missing lawyer case to the UN and no one objected.
It will be a miracle if Thailand ratifies the ICC.

You are splitting hairs. My comment was that Thai's don't like to bring foreigners into their internal affairs. Whether the cases are on someone's desk in the UN or not is academic. Without the ratification, the ICC has no basis to get involved in the drug killings.

marshbags · December 22, 2006

This article from todays Nation speaks volumes on the judicial priorities according to status.

eg. ( Puyai in comparison to less fortunates )

Fri, December 22, 2006 : Last updated 5:53 am (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Politicians 'not easy to prosecute when abroad'

Prosecuting politicians for corruption-related charges would be difficult and maybe impossible if the accused remain abroad, a seminar was told on Wednesday.

Praphan Sabsaeng, chairman of the Supreme Court's Section for Political Crime, said arrest warrants should be issued first in such cases.

He said the Court was ready to deal with high profile cases, such as former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra or some of his Cabinet members, as there were 89 judges in the Supreme Court ready for such a task.

But trials could not take place if the accused were absent, Praphan said. But the extradition of certain politicians back to Thailand should not be ruled out.

"We're only worried if the accused will be taken to court, or not, and how well-built the case is [against the accused]," he said.

"Do they have all related documents or not, because the accused should have the right to fight against the case in court."

Praphan warned against any bid to try Thaksin in absentia, saying the Criminal Court could not do that. "All criminal case must be tried in open, in front of the accused only."

Please go to the following url for the complete article:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/12/22...cs_30022231.php

The comments about criminal proceedure are relevant and therefore " on topic "

In my humble opinion of course.

Comments like these just make me more annoyed and the unlawful killings carried out a monumental travesty and profoundly hypocritical.

marshbags

P.S.

At the very least the Extra Judicial Killings can be referred to the H.R.W. internationally and tried in the presence of / abscence of, and based on evidence already documented and available.

No convenient interpretations of Thai law to dismiss it / ignore it, are needed.

Edited December 22, 2006 by marshbags

marshbags · January 7, 2007

Taken from Tdays B.Post Perspective. 07-01-2007

Quote:-

Thailand's addicts need help

When the "War on Drugs" was declared back in January of 2003, the media was reporting a staggering number of ya ba, or methamphetamine, addicts, by some accounts as many as four or five million.

The obvious question three years later is, what happened to all those addicts?

The obvious answer is that those estimates were probably wildly exaggerated. Most of those millions were probably what could be termed "recreational" users. Probably many were "scared straight" by the harsh, perhaps brutal is a better word, methods employed by the authorities in the war on drugs.

Many others are still taking methamphetamines and other drugs occasionally, at great risk to themselves.

Thankfully most young people who try drugs don't progress to the point that they feel they need them to function and throw their lives away to satisfy that need. That doesn't mean there is no problem. Even occasional use of methamphetamines can have serious repercussions, especially in young people. It is a very powerful drug which produces drastic physical and mental changes.

But what of those ya ba, heroin and also alcohol users could be termed true addicts? After all, alcohol is the most widely abused drug in the world, and one of the most addictive.

Do addicts in Thailand have access to effective help in quitting if they truly want to do so? Certainly there are knowledgeable and dedicated individuals involved in rehabilitation, but as a whole it appears that both government and private rehabilitative services leave a lot to be desired.

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the complete article:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Perspective/07Jan2007_pers004.php

Rehabilitation and Education has always been the only effective way of changing the situation for the addicts and the less informed / uneducated.

Not eliminating it by the methods introduced by the last government.

Had they targeted the main dealers / trafficers / smugglers by this kill on site method then that would be far someone for wiser than me to decide if it was humane or not.

Suffice to say the ones that existed at the time may well have deserved such a fate.

This article once again reitterates what most members of civilised societies around the globe have voiced.

The true objective was and has always been for silencing the less privilidged members of Thailand while protecting the identities of the privilidged Puyai.

I was tempted to put this article in another drug related thread that,s ongoing but i thought it deserved a more respectable forum and is applicable to the E.J. killings and it,s " ALLEDGED " agenda which sadly, failed of course and at such a human cost and the suffering that continues indefinitely for those personally attached to the victims.

marshbags

Edited January 7, 2007 by marshbags

sriracha john · February 19, 2007

UPDATE... and it's a biggie

fake witnesses... fake evidence... abuse of power...

Thaksin Could Face Charges As DSI Links Police To Drug War Killings

The Department of Special Investigation has evidence linking police to four extra-judicial killings during deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's war on drugs in 2003. Ex-premier Thaksin could face charges of incitement. DSI director-general Sunai Manomai-udom said on Monday that all four cases were transferred from the police to the DSI which began its investigation in December 2006 following complaints lodged by victims' families. The four cases were the death of a 9-year old boy, alias Nong Fluke, on Feb 23, 2003 and the subsequent disappearance of his mother; the killings of Nikhom Ounkaew and his wife Khanraya, in Nakhon Ratchasima's Khon Buri district on March 28, 2003; the deaths of Pongthep and Ampaiwan Rukhongprasert in Tak's Mae Sot district on May 18, 2003; and the killing of educator Samarn Thongdee in Tak's Muang district in April 2003.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=116924

Tony Clifton · February 20, 2007

Ouch...

As I've mentioned before, there's plenty of pre-drug war footage and recordings lying around where his big mouth will once again betray him.

John K · February 20, 2007

I think Australia my not have a extradition treaty with Thailand, but I bet they could deny his visa renewal based on being an undesirable.

jumnien · February 20, 2007

5 months after the stormtroopers swarmed in and you guys are still worried about what the previously elected government did or didn't do?

ColPyat · February 20, 2007

Quoted from the article:

He said if the evidence is clear, the DSI will bring it to Justice Minister Chanchai Likhitjitta and Justice permanent secretary Jarun Pukditanakul to discuss if there are sufficient grounds to issue an arrest warrant for Mr Thaksin on charges of supporting or inciting officials to kill suspects.
At least 1,164 people were killed during the three-month war on drugs.

However, Mr Sunai said cases of extra-judicial killings could not be forwarded to the International Criminal Court, as urged by human rights activists, so Mr Thaksin could not be prosecuted there since Thailand is not a party to the court.

It will be discussed if there are sufficient ground for arrest. That is not much they have come up with, so far.

No Intenational court either.

Don't hold your breath that much is going to happen.

Tony Clifton · February 20, 2007

mdeland

5 months after the stormtroopers swarmed in and you guys are still worried about what the previously elected government did or didn't do?

5 months is nothing compared to the victims families, orphans who will remember it for a lifetime.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Tony Clifton

Sing_Sling · February 20, 2007

5 months after the stormtroopers swarmed in and you guys are still worried about what the previously elected government did or didn't do?

You're right, of course. All previous crimes and actions are to be wiped clean.

Hitler should be knighted, Pol Pot sainted, Suharto hugged, Stalin embraced, Marcos cuddled, Idi Amin gently wedgied etc . . .

marshbags · February 22, 2007

5 months after the stormtroopers swarmed in and you guys are still worried about what the previously elected government did or didn't do?

How you can associate the present leaders to the infamous stormtroopers is really sinking to the depths.

In particular your reference to the last five months whereby to my knowledge there hasn,t been one single offence against Thai society relating to humanitarian issues of the nature the infamous stormtroopers or Thaksin and his coherts committed.

As for your flippant reference to the last five months and why people are still concerned ( not worried ) about what Thaksin brought about, " just for political gain and propaganda, " you should be ashamed of yourself.

As T.C. rightly points out and i quote :-

5 months is nothing compared to the victims families, orphans who will remember it for a lifetime.

Just for once try thinking about the implications of this statement and what it truly means to the ones left behind who will no longer have their loved ones, parents and siblings ect. to comfort or support them.

The Extra Judicial Killings where an evil act / crime against humanity and offensive to every decent human being on this planet.

Even when it became obvious to everyone and anyone what was happening, this scum couldn,t even acknowledge what was happening let alone oder it to be stopped and to make it more dispicable continued to try and make political gain out of the carnage.

This is what this thread is about and the international community will never forget as it,s rightful place in infamy and you ought to recognise the fact.

If you wish to score points and make these sort of comments perhaps / may i suggest you do so on the forums more suitable to your sarcasm.

marshbags

Edited February 22, 2007 by marshbags

marshbags · February 22, 2007

UPDATE... and it's a biggie
fake witnesses... fake evidence... abuse of power...

Thaksin Could Face Charges As DSI Links Police To Drug War Killings

The Department of Special Investigation has evidence linking police to four extra-judicial killings during deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's war on drugs in 2003. Ex-premier Thaksin could face charges of incitement. DSI director-general Sunai Manomai-udom said on Monday that all four cases were transferred from the police to the DSI which began its investigation in December 2006 following complaints lodged by victims' families. The four cases were the death of a 9-year old boy, alias Nong Fluke, on Feb 23, 2003 and the subsequent disappearance of his mother; the killings of Nikhom Ounkaew and his wife Khanraya, in Nakhon Ratchasima's Khon Buri district on March 28, 2003; the deaths of Pongthep and Ampaiwan Rukhongprasert in Tak's Mae Sot district on May 18, 2003; and the killing of educator Samarn Thongdee in Tak's Muang district in April 2003.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/topstories/tops...s.php?id=116924

Having been away for a few days it was great to have this article brought my attention via your post S.J.

( Once again it demonstrates what splendid work you guys do keeping us in touch with the ongoing updates we could possibly miss out on otherwise, especially you, J.D and George. )

The DSI have accomplished more in the short time they have been in charge of the investigation than the time between 2003 and December 2006.

There are those among us that will no doubt be offering cynical comparisons / remarks about how meaningless it is.

My view is one of optimism and the fact that they have made this sort of progress is very encouraging and positive.

Everytime an article is printed and comments are made adds a bit more assurance that it will never go away.

If i may be permitted to restate something said a good while back.

Thaksin may be able to lie, buy and cheat his way out of justice relating to the corruption scandals,

( I still think he will be be seen to be guilty of many of them ) BUT!!!!!!!

He cannot escape or buy his way out of these crimes that were committed on his watch and with his very

PUBLIC AUTHORISATION and sickening boasting to boot.

This is not only a Thai related incident of national interest, but also Internationally and this is where his undoing will occur.

He will surely be made accountable for his role in the inhumanities of these sordid, wicked crimes.

The evidence via self implication are well documented and cannot / will not ever be erased.

Even after 1,164 people where killed the first 3 months you didn,t call a halt to the obvious carnage did you,

THAKSIN, YOU EVIL BASTARD

I bet your not so arrogant and self assured on your publicity ( sickening ) and their objectives now.

For one time only " Thank You " for this provision and your ability to self distruct via your

DISHONEST / HONEST INTENTIONS. if i may be allowed to be sarcastic on this point ( only )

This article says plenty relating to evidence and various other relevant points and while it is brief, it is well laid out on the observations it raises.

Eventually public opinion and justice will prevail and wether or not Thailand is able to forward these E.J.K. cases to the " International Criminal Court " or not, he will be made accountable one way or another.

Karma will be delivered one way or another, also.

IMHO of course

marshbags and very for all the victims

Edited February 22, 2007 by marshbags

tuky · February 22, 2007

Thailand is not a party to the International Criminal Court.

John K · February 22, 2007

Thailand is not a party to the International Criminal Court.

I wonder why?

sriracha john · March 4, 2007

DRUGS KILLINGS

Surayud orders renewed inquiry

Government ready to prosecute Thaksin people over deaths of South Muslims, accused 'dealers'

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont has ordered prosecutions for alleged human rights violations and extra-judicial killings during the Thaksin Shinawatra administration.

Surayud has instructed the Justice Ministry to set up a "special committee to prosecute violations of human rights and extra judicial killings" in response to numerous allegations of violations and deaths between 2001 and 2006.

The prime minister signed an order for the prosecution on February 23.

In 2003 the government launch-ed a crackdown on drug manufacturing, trafficking and use during which many people were arrested and killed.

When Thaksin announced the "war on drugs" he famously said the "drug trade is ruthless on our children so being ruthless back is not a bad thing. It may be necessary to have casualties. If there are deaths among traders, it is normal."

At the same time, the political situation in Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani deteriorated rapidly following the raid on an Army post in January 2004. The violence has continued unabated.

The committee will scrutinise the Krue Se mosque and Tak Bai incidents.

Seventy-eight Muslims died at Tak Bai in October 2005 and the investigation will concentrate on this owing to the availability of evidence against national leaders of the time.

During Thaksin's leadership international human rights organisations, including United Nations agencies, expressed concern over alleged violations in Thailand.

In July 2005 Thailand was required - for the first time - to defend its rights record over extra-judicial killings at the UN Human Rights Commission in Geneva.

The committee will include both government and civilian experts. It will examine cases of missing persons, "disappearances" and killings during the two Thaksin governments.

The Department of Special Investigation has taken up the disappearance of lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit in 2004.

According to human rights lawyer Somchai Homlaoo, progress has been made following the ap-pointment of acting national police chief General Seripisut Temiyavej.

The anti-drugs campaign was divided into two phases. The first, which lasted well over three months from February 2003, resulted in the prosecution of several thousand drugs suspects.

As many as 2,500 were killed. The Thaksin administration trumpeted the results as evidence of its determination to stamp out the trade in illegal drugs.

There were widespread reports of arrests and killings both at home and abroad.

The second phase began at the end of November 2003 and ended in early 2004 without much media scrutiny.

Altogether several thousand people died.

According to a Nation investigation, as many as 5,000 could have been killed during the second phase but this was never made public because of concerns over recurring bad international press following phase one.

According to sources, the Thai delegation dispatched to Geneva in July 2005 was ready to answer UN questions based on the 7,500 figure.

But the UN focused its enquiries on the first phase of the drugs war only.

The justice committee is the latest government effort to improve Thailand's international image as a country respectful of human rights and international covenants.

Last week, the government supported the creation of a regional human rights mechanism to protect and promote rights in Southeast Asia.

The justice investigation is aimed at bringing the killers to justice under domestic law.

But since the coup, lawyers have suggested perpetrators could be tried in an international forum if the country ratifies its signing of the International Criminal Court treaty in 2000. The Thaksin administration put ratification on the backburner.

Last week, in a surprise move, the government permitted the Geneva-based International Commission of Jurists to set up a regional office in Bangkok. Under Thaksin, the request was frozen.

In the long term the presence of a high-profile international rights body such as the commission could deter future governments from abusing rights and international agreements, the administration claimed.

The Nation

marshbags · March 5, 2007

Thanks for the update S.J.

More good news and yes, we are happy to observe, it is not being allowed to fade away.

Time will tell, but in my humble opinion if the P.M. and his government pursue this vigoriously enough as their continued statements indicate.

This can be the one sure way of making Toxin accountable as contrary to belief and with the provision of a channel via which they can provide information without fear of intimidation, their are plenty of Thai,s who will be more than willing to oblige.

Many relatives of the victims will want to do so anyway

Then irrespective of the outcome of all the multitude of ongoing corruption charges being investigated

They do NOT need or depend on the PuYai of the last administration who are involved / recipients of the graft in the corruption cases to get a conviction.

He can and should be made accountable for his role as CEO of the last regime on this evil vendetta,

He has after all implicated himself personally many times during the E.J.K,s / cold blooded murderswith his sickening boasting and approval on and in the media for all to witness and record.

marshbags still and for the victims and their loved ones left behind

Edited due to duplicating S.J,s last post on the article, who is also vigoriously pursuing this important issue as well.

Apologies if anyone noticed before i could change my follow up.

Edited March 5, 2007 by marshbags

jumnien · March 5, 2007

"More good news and yes, we are happy to observe, it is not being allowed to fade away.

marshbags still and for the victims and their loved ones left behind "

Yes, it is being pursued with all the purity of Bush's right wing prosecution and hanging of Saddam Hussein. It's always interesting when right wing military despots bring their political adversaries into "court" for a "fair and balanced" trial. Should make for good television. Isn't the military coming up with their own Thai FOX network just for the occasion?

keda · March 5, 2007

Extrajudicial killings aside, the war on drugs worked. Usage plummeted and prices soared. Not sure how many if you were around before and after, but there was a huge difference in terms of the amount of drugs available on the street and in schools.

Do you think there is one gram of drugs less on the streets today than there was before the War on Drugs?

marshbags · March 5, 2007

"More good news and yes, we are happy to observe, it is not being allowed to fade away.
marshbags still and for the victims and their loved ones left behind "

Yes, it is being pursued with all the purity of Bush's right wing prosecution and hanging of Saddam Hussein. It's always interesting when right wing military despots bring their political adversaries into "court" for a "fair and balanced" trial. Should make for good television. Isn't the military coming up with their own Thai FOX network just for the occasion?

A bit confusing to say the least mdeland

But anyway a further article courtesy of the B.Post. this afternoon to clear the old grey matter

BREAKING NEWS 15:24

Quote:-

Rights groups welcome new probe

(dpa) - Human rights advocates on Monday welcomed reports that the current Thai government has launched a new inquiry into thousands of extra-judicial killings under the previous administration of ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

Current Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont on February 23 instructed the Justice Ministry to set up a "special committee to prosecute violations of human rights and extra-judicial killings" between 2001 and 2006, when Thaksin was prime minister.

Thaksin was ousted by a military coup on September 19 last year on charges of corruption and dividing the nation.

"It's good news," said Khraisak Choonhavan, a former senator who has been at the forefront of efforts to bring Thaksin to court for allowing thousands of extra judicial killings during his "war on drugs" between 2003 to 2004.

"I think the prime minister is now feeling more confident to do this because there is a new chief of police," said Kraisak. "Without police collaboration in these investigations nothing will be accomplished since thousands of police were involved in the killings."

Unquote.

For the complete article please go to the following url:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=117220

I hope this doesn,t add to your confusion as demonstrated above and hopefully stops you going off topic completely.

marshbags

P.S.

The following was a reaction to part of the article on Thaksins democracy speech also in todays B.Post.

Quote:-

Had he actually believed that democracy could deliver peace, our society would not have witnessed the worst-ever political divide which emerged during his regime and still prevails.

And had he truly believed in democracy, hundreds of innocent people among the 2,500 suspected drug dealers killed during his regime would still be alive today.

Unquote.

I couldn,t have put it better, may the souls of the victims R.I.P. and their families find peace through retribution.

Both known and unknown exceeding well above the 3,000 mark, if the truth is ever revealed.

Just in case you wish to read this article also and it hasn,t been posted by our admin, please go to url:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/05Mar2007_news99.php

Edited March 5, 2007 by marshbags

jumnien · March 5, 2007

Human Rights groups also rage against the coup you choose to support.

blaze · March 5, 2007

Human Rights groups also rage against the coup you choose to support.

Why has it taken so long?

Any body read Chang Noi's column today in the Nation- ah hel_l, here's the link: http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/05/opi...on_30028470.php

Combine that today's interview in the post with the aristocratic General Saprang and it's hard to believe that civil rights are a priority for this regime- beyond their providing a quasi-justification for collecting all power in this country and putting it back where it belongs.

I would like to see Taksin taken to account for the drug war killings. And for his failure to punish the military for its deportment in the south- but I'd much prefer that these were undertaken once a legitimate civilian government is in place. And the defence of 'only following orders' tossed out.

marshbags · March 6, 2007

Human Rights groups also rage against the coup you choose to support.

Why has it taken so long?

Any body read Chang Noi's column today in the Nation- ah hel_l, here's the link: http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/05/opi...on_30028470.php

Combine that today's interview in the post with the aristocratic General Saprang and it's hard to believe that civil rights are a priority for this regime- beyond their providing a quasi-justification for collecting all power in this country and putting it back where it belongs.

I would like to see Taksin taken to account for the drug war killings. And for his failure to punish the military for its deportment in the south- but I'd much prefer that these were undertaken once a legitimate civilian government is in place. And the defence of 'only following orders' tossed out.

The seriousness of the above you mention Blaze require ongoing investigation or otherwise we could find the CEO in question minipulating the enquiries once the next Gov. is elected and things would just be washed under the carpet.

A nice but convenient phrase comes to mind:-

In the interest of reconciliation and the future of Thailand ect. ect.

You are off the mark baring in mind the thread is about " Extra Judicial Killings " when referring to the present situation.

MDE

What the U.S and it,s institutions has to do with this debate as referred to by comments are beyond me and off topic.

Due to your post also being muddled, when asked to clarify it you come back with comments about supporting the coup which is sod all to do with my objective and well you should know this.

I suspect that once again you are attempting to cause the disruption you tend to create and get the thread closed.

This is how it comes across anyway ????

The thread needs keeping open to highlight and continue debate on the subject matter and perhaps you should keep on TOPIC to enable this to happen.

As for the civil human rights, again this is not relevant to this as it relates to other issues, but i along with many members see things positive happening that would never have been put in place under the old regime.

An important article follows on this very subject and certain IMPORTANT issues.

Do anyone seriously believe that things would not have got worse had Thaksin been able to outsmart the actions that where taken to put a halt to the multitude of wrong doings that happened on a daily basis under his authority.

Some people have short memories and the fact that so many took place to acommodate his lust, greed and power at the expense of Thai,s and Thailand is the only legacy that has anything meaningful relating to Thaksin and civil human rights.

The thread is about bringing him to account and let us not forget all the other questionable and ethical actions that happened on his watch as observed by H.R.W. and the questions they asked and he chose to arrogantly ignore and dismiss out of hand.

I read the article you refer to Blaze and this is deserving of another thread to debate it and should get the mixed and various opinions of anyone wishing to do so.

I,d be happy to give my take on the subject if it developed into a meaningful debate, even if it differs from others.

Anyway back on topic ( I thought it was courteous to give my reply to what you posted by the way.)

and the following article i briefly mentioned from todays Nation.

I hope in part it puts the real human rights issues in a more positive mould and is an important step forward.

Tue, March 6, 2007 : Last updated 0:13 am (Thai local time)

Quote:-

EDITORIAL

Human rights record improves

The Surayud govt leads the way in pushing Asean towards greater protection for citizens' rights

In the past five months, the protection of human rights has been one of the few areas in which the interim government of General Surayud has performed well above average. This is indeed an unusual commendation for an administration that was not elected and came to power through military force. Such regimes normally do not adhere to the principles of human rights. Such is the absurdity of Thai politics. Since he assumed the premiership last year, General Surayud has reiterated time and again that his government would use peaceful means and dialogue to resolve the ongoing conflict in the southernmost provinces of Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani. His continued pledge of non-violence - even in the face of terrorist attacks and further threats from insurgents and political extremists - has made him unpopular among some elements in the security forces who believe that an armed response should be the name of the game. Such people say the government and security forces should stand their ground - but the government continues to pursue peaceful methods to counter the daily violence in the South. It remains to be seen whether this pacifist approach can lead to a cessation of violence, or even to a reduction in the number of deaths and injuries.

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the complete article:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/06...on_30028582.php

Thailand must look to the future and the the new constitutional issues and elections.

As for the past five years, it is important one way or the other to investigate all the alledged misuses of power and by doing do draw the line and hopefully closure by the outcome along with penalties according to law where guilt is found.

The E.J.K along with all human rights violations that have been responsible for untold misery and death are a top priority, or should i say, should be.

Going back years and years is not only counter productive but not what the present actions of the last government and the ongoing turmoil is about. IMHO

marshbags

Edited March 6, 2007 by marshbags

jumnien · March 6, 2007

Sorry, Marshy, but I respectfully disagree with you, and just wish to keep the debate open. There are people who believe, as I do, that the junta is insincere in their prosecution of possible human rights abuses in the previously elected administration. There are people who believe, as I do, that this was merely a pretense for them to seize power illegally, and that their threats to prosecute in a junta-controlled court room are merely an attempt to coerce their political adversaries to let the junta remain in power. There are people who believe, as I do, that many of those who support the junta's odd mixture of truth and fiction surrounding the drug dealer killings, corruption at the airport, censorship of the media, etc. are merely pawns for the vicious regime. Others, including you, are welcome to their opinions. I really don't see the harm in having all of us express our feelings on the matter. Otherwise, this thread just becomes a monotonous rehash of newspaper articles the junta's press secretary has released. Let's all continue reading between the lines with a little wisdom and creativity.

younghusband · March 6, 2007

Human Rights groups also rage against the coup you choose to support.

Why has it taken so long?

Any body read Chang Noi's column today in the Nation- ah hel_l, here's the link: http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/05/opi...on_30028470.php

Combine that today's interview in the post with the aristocratic General Saprang and it's hard to believe that civil rights are a priority for this regime- beyond their providing a quasi-justification for collecting all power in this country and putting it back where it belongs.

I would like to see Taksin taken to account for the drug war killings. And for his failure to punish the military for its deportment in the south- but I'd much prefer that these were undertaken once a legitimate civilian government is in place. And the defence of 'only following orders' tossed out.

Keep your eyes on General Saprang since he is a coming man in Thai politics.I think he has Suchinda like characteristics that if he was placed in a position of ultimate authority could spell deep deep trouble for this country.

In the overall scheme of things it's relatively minor but it seems not much has changed in expensive fatcat tiewing.I'm sorry I don't have the reference to hand (perhaps some kind person will oblige) but there is an article in today's Nation detailing expenditure of about Bt 7million on a week long fact finding trip(airport security/safety) to Europe by General Saprang and party (with several family members) including Bt 5.5 million for travelling costs, Bt 1.2 million for entertainment and Bt 500,000 as a "commission fee" for a travel agent.

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig and from pig to man again;but already it was impossible to say which was which."

Animal Farm - George Orwell

blaze · March 6, 2007

Human Rights groups also rage against the coup you choose to support.

Why has it taken so long?

Any body read Chang Noi's column today in the Nation- ah hel_l, here's the link: http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/05/opi...on_30028470.php

Combine that today's interview in the post with the aristocratic General Saprang and it's hard to believe that civil rights are a priority for this regime- beyond their providing a quasi-justification for collecting all power in this country and putting it back where it belongs.

I would like to see Taksin taken to account for the drug war killings. And for his failure to punish the military for its deportment in the south- but I'd much prefer that these were undertaken once a legitimate civilian government is in place. And the defence of 'only following orders' tossed out.

The seriousness of the above you mention Blaze require ongoing investigation or otherwise we could find the CEO in question minipulating the enquiries once the next Gov. is elected and things would just be washed under the carpet.

A nice but convenient phrase comes to mind:-

In the interest of reconciliation and the future of Thailand ect. ect.

You are off the mark baring in mind the thread is about " Extra Judicial Killings " when referring to the present situation.

MDE

What the U.S and it,s institutions has to do with this debate as referred to by comments are beyond me and off topic.

Due to your post also being muddled, when asked to clarify it you come back with comments about supporting the coup which is sod all to do with my objective and well you should know this.

I suspect that once again you are attempting to cause the disruption you tend to create and get the thread closed.

This is how it comes across anyway ????

The thread needs keeping open to highlight and continue debate on the subject matter and perhaps you should keep on TOPIC to enable this to happen.

As for the civil human rights, again this is not relevant to this as it relates to other issues, but i along with many members see things positive happening that would never have been put in place under the old regime.

An important article follows on this very subject and certain IMPORTANT issues.

Do anyone seriously believe that things would not have got worse had Thaksin been able to outsmart the actions that where taken to put a halt to the multitude of wrong doings that happened on a daily basis under his authority.

Some people have short memories and the fact that so many took place to acommodate his lust, greed and power at the expense of Thai,s and Thailand is the only legacy that has anything meaningful relating to Thaksin and civil human rights.

The thread is about bringing him to account and let us not forget all the other questionable and ethical actions that happened on his watch as observed by H.R.W. and the questions they asked and he chose to arrogantly ignore and dismiss out of hand.

I read the article you refer to Blaze and this is deserving of another thread to debate it and should get the mixed and various opinions of anyone wishing to do so.

I,d be happy to give my take on the subject if it developed into a meaningful debate, even if it differs from others.

Anyway back on topic ( I thought it was courteous to give my reply to what you posted by the way.)

and the following article i briefly mentioned from todays Nation.

I hope in part it puts the real human rights issues in a more positive mould and is an important step forward.

Tue, March 6, 2007 : Last updated 0:13 am (Thai local time)

Quote:-

EDITORIAL

Human rights record improves

The Surayud govt leads the way in pushing Asean towards greater protection for citizens' rights

In the past five months, the protection of human rights has been one of the few areas in which the interim government of General Surayud has performed well above average. This is indeed an unusual commendation for an administration that was not elected and came to power through military force. Such regimes normally do not adhere to the principles of human rights. Such is the absurdity of Thai politics. Since he assumed the premiership last year, General Surayud has reiterated time and again that his government would use peaceful means and dialogue to resolve the ongoing conflict in the southernmost provinces of Yala, Narathiwat and Pattani. His continued pledge of non-violence - even in the face of terrorist attacks and further threats from insurgents and political extremists - has made him unpopular among some elements in the security forces who believe that an armed response should be the name of the game. Such people say the government and security forces should stand their ground - but the government continues to pursue peaceful methods to counter the daily violence in the South. It remains to be seen whether this pacifist approach can lead to a cessation of violence, or even to a reduction in the number of deaths and injuries.

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the complete article:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/06...on_30028582.php

Thailand must look to the future and the the new constitutional issues and elections.

As for the past five years, it is important one way or the other to investigate all the alledged misuses of power and by doing do draw the line and hopefully closure by the outcome along with penalties according to law where guilt is found.

The E.J.K along with all human rights violations that have been responsible for untold misery and death are a top priority, or should i say, should be.

Going back years and years is not only counter productive but not what the present actions of the last government and the ongoing turmoil is about. IMHO

marshbags

Let me connect the dots with a firmer line: it has been established that the drug wars occurred. It has been established that many of us- me included- regard them as egregious trampling of basic human rights.

What has not been established- is under what type of regime should the accused be prosecuted. Should it be under a regime that has as its sole purpose for existence the assumed guilt of the accused? Or should it be under a regime that is- and is SEEN TO BE dedicated to the pursuit of legally conditioned justice? In short - this is too serious to be left to what may be regarded as a kangaroo court- because a guilty finding by a kangaroo court- a show trial- will negate the deterrant value of the prosecution. The real message of deterrence will be- don't piss off the army or the privy coucil.

A court in this case- is in a rough situation- if they find Taksin guilty- very likely many will see this as 'victor's justice'- that they were simply afraid to be the ones to undermine the military's first major prosecution of Taksin. If they find him innocent, many will see them as simply trying to assert their independence and distance themselves from accusation of being biased. Either way, the judgement will be suspect.

Unless the public truly believes that the courts are able to function independently in a military dictatorship- where the accused is the chief enemy of the military- then probably NO cases should be brought against Taksin until there is a democratically elected government in place.

Yet of course, without prosecutions, the reasons for the coup are unproved. That is the catch 22 of coups, I suppose.

Edited March 6, 2007 by blaze

marshbags · March 6, 2007

Sorry, Marshy, but I respectfully disagree with you, and just wish to keep the debate open. There are people who believe, as I do, that the junta is insincere in their prosecution of possible human rights abuses in the previously elected administration. There are people who believe, as I do, that this was merely a pretense for them to seize power illegally, and that their threats to prosecute in a junta-controlled court room are merely an attempt to coerce their political adversaries to let the junta remain in power. There are people who believe, as I do, that many of those who support the junta's odd mixture of truth and fiction surrounding the drug dealer killings, corruption at the airport, censorship of the media, etc. are merely pawns for the vicious regime. Others, including you, are welcome to their opinions. I really don't see the harm in having all of us express our feelings on the matter. Otherwise, this thread just becomes a monotonous rehash of newspaper articles the junta's press secretary has released. Let's all continue reading between the lines with a little wisdom and creativity.

The thing i worry about is that as in previous areas of the debate when posts start expanding into the sort your last 2 posts could go to and then it will once again be chaos.

For example what if someone picks up on your U.S. related comments and causes a diversion which in turn causes a further deviation ( as has happened before ).

We then finish up with a totally different debate and the guaranteed chaos that will follow as post reacts to post ect.

A similar situation would also develop if your referrence to the coup was picked up on and support for or against it would send us all over the place and into chaos once again.

Wisdom and creativity ARE always great assets to have in a debate to ensure expansion so long as it is applied in a mature and sensible way and for myself it can only enhance and keep the thread going.

The mods ( who do a great job incidently ) will once again have no choice but to either suspend the thread or close it completely.

As with many threads that have already been debated, yes they do tend to stall and this is why it is important to keep posting relevant information and articles to update the situation.

I appreciate that this may seem tedious and boring but how many times does a thread suddenly come back to life that has been inactive for ex amount of time.

A similar situation would also develop if your referrence to the coup and support ofr or against it.

Of course i appreciate we all have different views, otherwise there would be no point in debating any subject matter.

So long as it doesn,t get a thread side tracked then it doesn,t become a problem and that applies to all ongoing debates that T.Visa encourages and of course we as members should and do.

As with Blaze all the areas you mention are either being debated elsewhere or can easily be posted in new threads and deal with the vast array of subject matter each one can generate.

Thanks for your reply which i can now relate to, hopefully without sounding to be condescending.

I posted a url for Blaze that contains an editorial on the latest human / citizens rights via the Nation just in case you missed it:-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/03/06...on_30028582.php

marshbags

marshbags · March 6, 2007