Tough love from the Thai Embassy (USA)

[xvend]

I like the etc. part  Typically American

 

 

Quote

Please note that we CANNOT issue the Non-Immigrant visas for the purpose of STUDYING MUAY THAI, DIVE TRAINING, MASSAGE SCHOOL, STUDYING THAI LANGUAGE, MEDITATION, etc. without a letter from the Thai Ministry of Education or other related Thai government agency approving the study.  In addition, Non-immigrant visas will NOT be issued for such purposes as tourism, visiting friends, visiting fiancé/fiancée, seeking employment opportunities, looking for a school for teaching or studying purposes, etc.  Please apply for the Tourist Visa.

 

http://www.thaiconsulatela.org/service_detail.aspx?link_id=34

Edited August 12, 2016 by xvend

[bkkcanuck8]

I think it is quite clear and straight forward -- and easy to understand.  Schools must be authorized by the MOE for the purposes of educational visa (some are authorized for one year max only).  It is saying that all these different activities -- there is no special visa (other than MOE authorized studying) and it is covered generally under the tourist visa.  Probably got tired of answering stupid questions.  Also note, the tourist visa is a catch all visa in addition to "tourism" as defined by certain people who want to run Thai Immigration

[xvend]

33 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I think it is quite clear and straight forward -- and easy to understand.  Schools must be authorized by the MOE for the purposes of educational visa (some are authorized for one year max only).  It is saying that all these different activities -- there is no special visa (other than MOE authorized studying) and it is covered generally under the tourist visa.  Probably got tired of answering stupid questions.  Also note, the tourist visa is a catch all visa in addition to "tourism" as defined by certain people who want to run Thai Immigration

 

It is totally clear. The good ol' days are over.

 

I originally came here for a 1 year stay 9 years ago and was easily granted a 1 year non-b in the US on the basis of "seeking employment opportunities"  I had to leave every 90 days but didn't care.

 

Immigration is catching up with the nomads.

 

Essentially it's a good thing, but it will hurt some people.

 

Pay to play, and legit visa options available for that 

[NanLaew]

The "good ol' days" have been over for at least 2 years when they started hammering the border runners and the shonky language schools. As you say, you came 9 years ago on a 1 year visa "seeking employment" which may have been you honest intention all those years ago but the same system also enabled the ne'er-do-wells of the planet to pitch their tents here. There's always been legitimate visa options but too many used the path of least resistance regardless if it meant making fraudulent claims or breaking the law. Thai Immigration is now doing some degree of due-diligence. It's just a pity they haven't started in their own back yard.

[xvend]

4 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The "good ol' days" have been over for at least 2 years when they started hammering the border runners and the shonky language schools. As you say, you came 9 years ago on a 1 year visa "seeking employment" which may have been you honest intention all those years ago but the same system also enabled the ne'er-do-wells of the planet to pitch their tents here. There's always been legitimate visa options but too many used the path of least resistance regardless if it meant making fraudulent claims or breaking the law. Thai Immigration is now doing some degree of due-diligence. It's just a pity they haven't started in their own back yard.

 

Exactly. It just happened out of opportunity that I opened a business because my type of business was totally lacking in Phuket.

 

My original idea was to come for one year and I did so legally.

 

8 years on and I have never been so astounded of how polite and efficient Thai Immigration is re-entering the country with proper docs, especially in 2016.

[gk10002000]

yes and when i was on my way over to teach and take the "required" course, i demanded to see the MOE cert the school said they had.  That was very dicey and not one sent me anything I thought would pass muster.  One school in Pattaya did send me something that looked official but I think it just had the words all over it but no necessarily official.

[bkkcanuck8]

38 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The "good ol' days" have been over for at least 2 years when they started hammering the border runners and the shonky language schools. As you say, you came 9 years ago on a 1 year visa "seeking employment" which may have been you honest intention all those years ago but the same system also enabled the ne'er-do-wells of the planet to pitch their tents here. There's always been legitimate visa options but too many used the path of least resistance regardless if it meant making fraudulent claims or breaking the law. Thai Immigration is now doing some degree of due-diligence. It's just a pity they haven't started in their own back yard.

The standard border runners that do it on the cheap (i.e. visa waiver) never went through any vetting to ensure they had the money that would reduce the risk that they were working illegally in a closed labour market (closed as in protectionist closed which is the case for most countries).   The tourist visa if properly vetted just ensures that you have enough money on hand to make sure you are not a high risk to work illegally.   They could add a requirement that your first tourist visa you are required to submit a police check -- which might cut down certain ne'er do well types that have a police record -- and a bond (cash in a locked in account in a Thai bank) of some sort that you get back if you never overstay and are not caught working illegally.  "Tourists" that stay typically in major cities and not actual "tourists" are actually less environmentally unfriendly.  Tourism is not generally in itself environmentally friendly.  They could actually introduce a nomadic visa with a minimum tax (payable in advance -- maybe 100,000 baht per annum; leaving the Thai Elite visa as just a services package or eliminated) and a requirement that all income be deposited in a Thai bank and tax withheld -- basically having the government take a cut.

[garyk]

If you want to live here just get a retirement visa, very easy. There are many countries that you can live in if you want to do visa runs. Malaysia is one, Cambodia is easy to get a long term visa. 

Thailand is strictly a party place. The government knows it and sets the rules accordingly. Give me your money sucker... LOL

[impulse]

35 minutes ago, garyk said:

If you want to live here just get a retirement visa, very easy.

 

Not if you're 30.

[Michael8511]

There is enough visas for Thailand so people don't have to use student visas for anything except study. It's the same all over the world, you would not get a student visa to USA without enrolled in a ledgit school that the Enbassy can verifie and you need to show enough finances so you can pay for the school and a commendation. 

[xvend]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

Not if you're 30.

 

Elite Visa, open a legit business, or marry a thai bird. Your choice.

 

First 2 options preffered

Edited August 13, 2016 by xvend

[ubonjoe]

The topic title is not really correct since the info posted is from the Thai consulate in Los Angeles not the embassy. The embassy is in Washington DC and there are two other official consulates in Chicago and New York.

I would think that contacting one of the honorary consulates in the states might get a different response than the embassy and official consulates. List of honorary consulates is here: http://thaiembdc.org/royal-thai-honorary-consulates-general-in-the-u-s/

[xvend]

6 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The topic title is not really correct since the info posted is from the Thai consulate in Los Angeles not the embassy. The embassy is in Washington DC and there are two other official consulates in Chicago and New York.

I would think that contacting one of the honorary consulates in the states might get a different response than the embassy and official consulates. List of honorary consulates is here: http://thaiembdc.org/royal-thai-honorary-consulates-general-in-the-u-s/

 

What would make you think the consulates and embassies have different rules? Your link provides no information whatsoever, just a bunch of PO boxes and phone numbers.

Edited August 13, 2016 by xvend

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, xvend said:

 

What would make you think the consulates and embassies have different rules? Your link provides no information whatsoever, just a bunch of PO boxes and phone numbers.

From personal experience and from reading hundreds of posts on this forum it is known that honorary Thai consulates are much easier to deal with. I have used the honorary consulate in Houston to get several visas (non-b and non-o's) over the years.

I can assure you will also find differences between embassies and official consulates as far as their requirements go. Just read about the differences at the nearby ones to get tourist visas.

[Suradit69]

19 minutes ago, xvend said:

 

What would make you think the consulates and embassies have different rules? Your link provides no information whatsoever, just a bunch of PO boxes and phone numbers.

" What would make you think the consulates and embassies have different rules?  "

 

Experience.

Often consulates are easier to deal with than embassies and the honorary consuls are often easier still. Additionally, often information posted on websites isn't consistent with actual practice.

 

Can't see what "tough love" in the title for the thread has to do with anything. 

 

 

[joeyg]

I know I'm in a vast minority here.  Anything that can be done to monitor, restrict and control the flow of expats and tourists, especially in to the Pattaya area will have nothing but a positive effect for everyone.

[joeyg]

22 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

" What would make you think the consulates and embassies have different rules?  "

 

Experience.

Often consulates are easier to deal with than embassies and the honorary consuls are often easier still. Additionally, often information posted on websites isn't consistent with actual practice.

 

Can't see what "tough love" in the title for the thread has to do with anything. 

 

 

Only tough for those trying to "skate."

[garyk]

1 hour ago, xvend said:

 

Elite Visa, open a legit business, or marry a thai bird. Your choice.

 

First 2 options preffered

LOL, wise man!

[SteveB2]

I can confirm that the same 'no love' situation for ED visa's that support long term internship courses at non MOE approved vocational training centers, also exists at the Royal Thai Embassy in Washington D.C.

 

Further, the situation in many countries is that the main Thai Embassy requires their honorary consuls to refer to them applicants for various visa categories for approval - so the 'honorary consul' method is also now blocked.

 

For the last student (enrolled with us on a 3 month course) applying at the D.C. Thai Embassy last month, saw his own visa application downgraded from 'ED' to a tourist (60+30) type.

 

In this instance, the student is still able to come over to Thailand and complete his 3 months training with us and so this is not an issue.

 

However, the new rules must seriously affect the thousands of prospective Dive Instructor 'Zero to Hero' applicants who want to come over here during their University gap year to complete training in the hundreds of Dive Schools serving the scuba tourism industry.

 

I checked with one large local dive school about how they were coping with the new Thai visa regulations and they said "we currently have no 6 month internship students with us right now, and are not able to offer any assistance to applicants for our 6 month internship courses’ This same Dive school had 150 internship students present at any one time in 2006 - so the drop in business caused by these new regulations has been colossal.

 

It could be argued that the new 6 month multi-entry tourist visa is a way round the problem for those wanting to stay longer than 3 months but less than 6 months - However, the paperwork and 'cash in the bank' requirements put most folks off from applying for this visa class once they look into it.

 

Plainly, Thai Embassy, Consulate, honorary consul's strict adherence to the new visa issuance regulations have signified the end of an era for many folk's business models - many business owners will close down, leave Thailand and set up in more friendly Asian countries because of it. Long term tourists, or people using these visa categories to illegally work over here are not welcome anymore and the door has been closed.   

 

 

[stevenl]

8 minutes ago, SteveB2 said:

I can confirm that the same 'no love' situation for ED visa's that support long term internship courses at non MOE approved vocational training centers, also exists at the Royal Thai Embassy in Washington D.C.

 

 

 

Further, the situation in many countries is that the main Thai Embassy requires their honorary consuls to refer to them applicants for various visa categories for approval - so the 'honorary consul' method is also now blocked.

 

 

 

For the last student (enrolled with us on a 3 month course) applying at the D.C. Thai Embassy last month, saw his own visa application downgraded from 'ED' to a tourist (60+30) type.

 

 

 

In this instance, the student is still able to come over to Thailand and complete his 3 months training with us and so this is not an issue.

 

 

 

However, the new rules must seriously affect the thousands of prospective Dive Instructor 'Zero to Hero' applicants who want to come over here during their University gap year to complete training in the hundreds of Dive Schools serving the scuba tourism industry.

 

 

 

I checked with one large local dive school about how they were coping with the new Thai visa regulations and they said "we currently have no 6 month internship students with us right now, and are not able to offer any assistance to applicants for our 6 month internship courses’ This same Dive school had 150 internship students present at any one time in 2006 - so the drop in business caused by these new regulations has been colossal.

 

It could be argued that the new 6 month multi-entry tourist visa is a way round the problem for those wanting to stay longer than 3 months but less than 6 months - However, the paperwork and 'cash in the bank' requirements put most folks off from applying for this visa class once they look into it.

 

Plainly, Thai Embassy, Consulate, honorary consul's strict adherence to the new visa issuance regulations have signified the end of an era for many folk's business models - many business owners will close down, leave Thailand and set up in more friendly Asian countries because of it. Long term tourists, or people using these visa categories to illegally work over here are not welcome anymore and the door has been closed.   

 

 

 

 

" This same Dive school had 150 internship students present at any one time in 2006 - so the drop in business caused by these new regulations has been colossal. "

Did you check more recent number, like 2014 and 2015? I want to bet they were down considerably already. These programmes are far less popular now that they used to be, not much to do with 'new regulations'.

 

" Plainly, Thai Embassy, Consulate, honorary consul's strict adherence to the new visa issuance regulations have signified the end of an era for many folk's business models "

For diving, I would hope so.

 

[xvend]

1 hour ago, Suradit69 said:

 

Can't see what "tough love" in the title for the thread has to do with anything. 

 

 

 

Quote

Tough love is an expression used when someone treats another person harshly or sternly with the intent to help them in the long run.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tough_love

 

Seems like it has everything to do with it

[impulse]

4 hours ago, xvend said:

 

Elite Visa, open a legit business, or marry a thai bird. Your choice.

 

First 2 options preffered

 

All legitimate options.  But none of them as cheap as the ED visa option that seems to be tightening up.

 

Not saying that's a bad thing, but it is going to put a hurt on some people that have been counting on the loophole staying propped open.  Not to mention the businesses what made a good chunk of their living helping people climb through the loophole.

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, xvend said:

 

 

Seems like it has everything to do with it

The LA Consulate isn't treating anyone harshly and I hardly think they have any interest in your well being in the short or long term. I'm sure the people at the consulate are lovely, but doubt they're implementing the rules out of love for you or for those who think "studying" Muay Thai will enable them to stay indefinitely in Thailand.

 

The quote you originally copied and pasted, or one very similar to it, has been on their website for quite a long time and its intention, quite obviously, is to reduce the number of inappropriate visa applications flooding their office and wasting the time of their office staff.

 

[JackThompson]

On 8/13/2016 at 2:28 PM, impulse said:

 

All legitimate options.  But none of them as cheap as the ED visa option that seems to be tightening up.

 

Not saying that's a bad thing, but it is going to put a hurt on some people that have been counting on the loophole staying propped open.  Not to mention the businesses what made a good chunk of their living helping people climb through the loophole.

 

That loophole is still open, though apparently one cannot apply for that visa in LA as easily.  One only needs to get the paperwork from the school while on a tourist-visa, then get the ed-visa in Laos.  The only change from the 'crackdown' is an extra 'fee' every 3 mo for the permission-of-stay extensions.  I ran into a guy the other day who is on his 3rd language. 

 

The solution to this mess is simple: Get rid of the 'ed' visa for anything but 4-year and graduate institutions, and put all other people who wish to stay more than 90 days into a process of income verification, similar to retirees.  This would greatly reduce the abuse and corruption, plus open the door to millions of under-50-expats around the world, who are financially self-supported, and would love to live here. 

[Gary A]

It's a simple thing for young guys who want to stay in Thailand. If you can afford to stay here long term, then you can afford the 500,000 baht Elite Visa. Problem solved without a bogus school.

[JackThompson]

12 minutes ago, Gary A said:

It's a simple thing for young guys who want to stay in Thailand. If you can afford to stay here long term, then you can afford the 500,000 baht Elite Visa. Problem solved without a bogus school.

To afford to stay here long term, you do not need to be anywhere close to wealthy enough to have that much "spare money" to spend on a visa.  To "show in the bank" - sure.  But "spend" is something else entirely. 

 

That sum is the equivalent of 12 months living quite comfortably in Thailand (20+, if one is the fan-room / thrifty sort).  So 20% of one's total life-overhead for visa-cost - 5 years up front? 

 

The Elite visa is suitable for those with enough savings that they can spend 500K Baht and not miss it - and includes the sort of 'perks' associated with that lifestyle.  Good for them, but in no way even remotely connected by reality an analysis of those who can "afford to stay here long-term."

 

This scheme's pricing is certainly not based on a profit-maximizing "Cost-Volume-Profit" analysis - revenue which could be spent on infrastructure, schools etc, if it were. 

[gk10002000]

500k Baht for 5 years or the new option is 800K baht for 10 years.  Now that is getting very competitive. 

[JackThompson]

7 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

500k Baht for 5 years or the new option is 800K baht for 10 years.  Now that is getting very competitive. 

 

"Competitive" is a bit of a misnomer, here.  "Immigration" is a government-monopoly, set up to serve the interests of the nation and its people. The nation's needs transcend a pure-profit motive, justifying the exclusion of this service from the "market," and private corporate interests, which might conflict with the nation's interests.

 

That said, governments can benefit from making market-based analysis of some of the programs and services they offer.  Were that done, in this case, I believe there would be "non-elite" as well as "elite" plans on offer, to maximize revenue while keeping out the dangerous or insolvent, just as the over 50 'retirement' option is designed to do.  Where the same analysis I suggest conducted on the retirement-based extensions, those would likely see an increase in the annual fee from the current 1,900 Baht.

 

For those who have ample savings to allow them to spend 500K or 800K for a visa, the Elite option is fine.  But for 95+% of "non-elite" foreigners who can easily afford to live in this relatively inexpensive country, it is simply not an option.

[gk10002000]

Fine.  change 800k for 10 years from competitive to cost effective, or a better deal than 500 k for 5 years.  A person is getting a 20 % discount.  800k for 10 years is of course an average of 80k baht a year for 10 years.  At 35 baht to 1 USD that is about 2,300 USD a year.  That is not a lot to pay for staying in a country while considering the reduced visa and extension hassles. 

[jednakropka]

anyone knows Muay Thai school in CM who offer ED Visa?