May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, onthesoi said:

 

Sure, all TM needed was a mandate then the EU would have granted all the UK's wishes.

 

Let me guess, when the UK ends up with a worse trade deal with the EU because of Brexit .....it will be the remainers to blame and not the numpties who voted to leave?

 

You got it.

 

 

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Naam said:

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-1152330.html

 

Trust the Germans to get it spot on! Zum Wolle!

thanks Grouse! i didn't dare to post that link

 

I love the way how the fact of migrant EU blue collar workers driving down wages is seamlessly massaged into Polish plumbers being the saviours of British bathrooms .

 

Other than that, just a good dose of Project Fear-style negative speculation, with a bit of gloating over the GE result thrown in. Identity confirmation comfort food for remainers.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Khun Han

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

Sure, all TM needed was a mandate then the EU would have granted all the UK's wishes.

 

Let me guess, when the UK ends up with a worse trade deal with the EU because of Brexit .....it will be the remainers to blame and not the numpties who voted to leave?

 

Any chance of a decent deal has now been sabotaged by the success of Project Fear. We are now negotiating with one (if not both our) hand(s) tied behind our back.

[mommysboy]

14 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Any chance of a decent deal has now been sabotaged by the success of Project Fear. We are now negotiating with one (if not both our) hand(s) tied behind our back.

What decent deal was that? 

 

Please, can you or any other Brexiter explain?

 

And also why is leaving the EU going to transform us in to a great exporting nation?

 

The pound dropped significantly but it didn't change much.  We don't export because we haven't got much to offer.

[AlexRich]

8 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

What decent deal was that? 

 

Please, can you or any other Brexiter explain?

 

And also why is leaving the EU going to transform us in to a great exporting nation?

 

The pound dropped significantly but it didn't change much.  We don't export because we haven't got much to offer.

Germany don't seem to have any problems being in the EU and trading with the rest of the world ... for the simple reason they make things the world wants. The argument that we could do this but are being prevented from doing so by the wicked EU is a fantasy.

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

Germany don't seem to have any problems being in the EU and trading with the rest of the world ... for the simple reason they make things the world wants. The argument that we could do this but are being prevented from doing so by the wicked EU is a fantasy.

 

Sadly, this is true.  And it's not all roses in Germany, by any means.  All the major economies face significant challenges, caused by gross imbalances.  Neither is Germany out to grind us down.  In fact I think it is rather horrified at losing such a valued partner.

 

You know the truly sad thing is Britain could have stayed and forged some much needed reforms on immigration, trade, and EU constitution.  Now we have no means of reeling in its excesses from the outside.  UK just needed to play the rebel awhile- perhaps an immigration blockade- it would have been much more effective.  It also would have earned much kudos.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

And also why is leaving the EU going to transform us in to a great exporting nation?

free trade agreement with the rest of the world without EU shackles. i could tell you about many interesting countries to trade with... if only i could think of some.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

We don't export because we haven't got much to offer.

looking at Britain's history this is something i don't understand.

[uptheos]

On 6/1/2017 at 6:38 PM, Khun Han said:

 

But, if a real brexit happens, we will be getting away from eventual German control of the UK, and all that will come with it. And anybody pretending that this is not the way that the EU is headed is incredibly deluded or actually wants it.

I thought we eliminated possible German control in 1945..........it's a funny old game.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

What decent deal was that? 

 

Please, can you or any other Brexiter explain?

 

And also why is leaving the EU going to transform us in to a great exporting nation?

 

The pound dropped significantly but it didn't change much.  We don't export because we haven't got much to offer.

 

Any deal which includes a hard brexit is better than staying in or staying half-in.

[Flustered]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

The pound dropped significantly but it didn't change much.  

A graduate of today's dumbed down education system.

 

Obviously an A* student.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Germany don't seem to have any problems being in the EU and trading with the rest of the world ... for the simple reason they make things the world wants. The argument that we could do this but are being prevented from doing so by the wicked EU is a fantasy.

 

Sadly, this is true.  And it's not all roses in Germany, by any means.  All the major economies face significant challenges, caused by gross imbalances.  Neither is Germany out to grind us down.  In fact I think it is rather horrified at losing such a valued partner.

 

You know the truly sad thing is Britain could have stayed and forged some much needed reforms on immigration, trade, and EU constitution.  Now we have no means of reeling in its excesses from the outside.  UK just needed to play the rebel awhile- perhaps an immigration blockade- it would have been much more effective.  It also would have earned much kudos.

 

I dare Germany to revert to the Deuschmark and then find out how popular it's exports are around the world. The UK staying in the EU will mean us eventually having to join the Euro, and consequently making the biggest subsidy yet to German exports. I expect Project Fear and their useful idiot remainers will have to work out a different script for that scenario, something along the lines of "We have to take the short-term bitter medecine for long-term gain", a complete juxtaposition of their current stance.

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, uptheos said:

I thought we eliminated possible German control in 1945..........it's a funny old game.

 

No, we just put the date back. They re-grouped.

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Naam said:

looking at Britain's history this is something i don't understand.

 

You need to look at the Thatcher years, and her rather brutal, short-termist method of dealing with the rampant trades union militancy that she inherited.

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

You know the truly sad thing is Britain could have stayed and forged some much needed reforms on immigration, trade, and EU constitution. 

 

You mean like all the reforms we've forged in our decades of membership so far?

[onthesoi]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Any chance of a decent deal has now been sabotaged by the success of Project Fear. We are now negotiating with one (if not both our) hand(s) tied behind our back.

 

If " the success of Project Fear. " is a codename for Theresa May gambling everything on an unnecessary election then I agree!

[pitrevie]

5 hours ago, Naam said:

looking at Britain's history this is something i don't understand.

You will get used to Khun Han's periodic rants about Germany and how the cheap Euro has benefited German Industry which it undoubtedly has. However what he always fails to explain is that long before Germany adopted the Euro they had become the powerhouse of Europe while the DM was also increasing in value. So it appears Germany achieved its pre-eminence in Europe despite the ever increasing value of the DM.

You would think with a pound that has gone in one direction almost consistently since WW2 the UK would be the powerhouse of Europe if that were the case.

As a result of Brexit the pound plummeted by around 20% and a year later exactly what benefits has that brought us?

[lamyai3]

7 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Sadly, this is true.  And it's not all roses in Germany, by any means.  All the major economies face significant challenges, caused by gross imbalances.  Neither is Germany out to grind us down.  In fact I think it is rather horrified at losing such a valued partner.

 

You know the truly sad thing is Britain could have stayed and forged some much needed reforms on immigration, trade, and EU constitution.  Now we have no means of reeling in its excesses from the outside.  UK just needed to play the rebel awhile- perhaps an immigration blockade- it would have been much more effective.  It also would have earned much kudos.

Exactly. Just look at how so many member countries took matters into their own hands and flouted the Schengen border rules last year. The UK just needed to grow a pair and refuse to comply with the EU's worst excesses and decisions...  rules that don't work either break down or get reformed if enough members rebel against them. EU reform is surely on the way, and Britain has completely isolated itself.

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, Flustered said:

A graduate of today's dumbed down education system.

 

Obviously an A* student.

 

For the insulting pedant: the pound dropped but it didn't change exports much.

 

Sorry, in my recent first novel I'm sure my writing was more cogent.  How many have you written by the way?

 

Any chance of answering any of the simple questions I posed earlier ?  Hopeful really!  He never does.

Edited June 22, 2017 by mommysboy

[evadgib]

5 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

If " the success of Project Fear. " is a codename for Theresa May gambling everything on an unnecessary election then I agree!

The election was necessary in order to neuter the SNP and avoid direct rule of NI from Westminster. The fact that it backfired in England took everyone by surprise and should be a wake up call re PR, mandatory participation inc 'no!' voters, and a secure govt gateway enabling global votes from the likes of us when that '15 year' lark is binned.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, pitrevie said:

7 hours ago, Naam said:

looking at Britain's history this is something i don't understand.

You will get used to Khun Han's periodic rants about Germany and how the cheap Euro has benefited German Industry which it undoubtedly has. However what he always fails to explain is that long before Germany adopted the Euro they had become the powerhouse of Europe while the DM was also increasing in value. So it appears Germany achieved its pre-eminence in Europe despite the ever increasing value of the DM.

that does not explain Britain's technical retrogression and the declining exports of relevant goods. stupid militant trade unions might be one but not the decisive factor. the EU barring UK to trade freely with Bongoland et al is a silly argument. British brain functions are as good as Tcherman ones. so vhat are ze real reasons?

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, Naam said:

that does not explain Britain's technical retrogression and the declining exports of relevant goods. stupid militant trade unions might be one but not the decisive factor. the EU barring UK to trade freely with Bongoland et al is a silly argument. British brain functions are as good as Tcherman ones. so vhat are ze real reasons?

 

I really don't know.  Perhaps, like the football world cup, there is only room for a handful of potential winners, and we just don't quite make the grade. UK, of course, enjoyed a renaissance in the 80's when we opted for services over industry.  I would also say that we chronically under invest in homegrown businesses, and anything of worth we tend to flog off for short term gain- another reason to utterly despise the dominant political party imo, which also has a 'laissez faire' mantra; this was rather good a couple of hundred years ago.

 

I think I'd also highlight our conflictual politics.  Germany, I believe, has a more consensual approach, and has at times had unity governments.  I believe this leads to more progress, since there is greater continuity.  Modern societies require good social welfare.  Being a predominantly right wing nation (England anyway) this aspect is not all it should be.

 

One other factor: for some reason UK is far less productive than peer countries.  Our car industries were notoriously bad, yet now are amongst the most efficient in the world.  I suppose this points to poor UK management skills. 

 

 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, pitrevie said:

You will get used to Khun Han's periodic rants about Germany and how the cheap Euro has benefited German Industry which it undoubtedly has. However what he always fails to explain is that long before Germany adopted the Euro they had become the powerhouse of Europe while the DM was also increasing in value. So it appears Germany achieved its pre-eminence in Europe despite the ever increasing value of the DM.

You would think with a pound that has gone in one direction almost consistently since WW2 the UK would be the powerhouse of Europe if that were the case.

As a result of Brexit the pound plummeted by around 20% and a year later exactly what benefits has that brought us?

"You will get used to Khun Han's periodic rants."

 

Oh no, must I?

 

At least Alf Garnett was funny.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, pitrevie said:

You will get used to Khun Han's periodic rants about Germany and how the cheap Euro has benefited German Industry which it undoubtedly has. However what he always fails to explain is that long before Germany adopted the Euro they had become the powerhouse of Europe while the DM was also increasing in value. So it appears Germany achieved its pre-eminence in Europe despite the ever increasing value of the DM.

You would think with a pound that has gone in one direction almost consistently since WW2 the UK would be the powerhouse of Europe if that were the case.

As a result of Brexit the pound plummeted by around 20% and a year later exactly what benefits has that brought us?

German industry benefited from the fact that Germany was not allowed any defence spending after the war so they funded infrastructure. The UK however squandered the taxpayers money on defence with one bad decision after another.

That coupled with the fiasco in the motor industry took away any chance of the UK being a powerhouse, and all before getting involved with Europe. Bit strange that since then the motor and aviation industries have gone from strength to strength.

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, evadgib said:

Any border controls will be in mainland UK; not least to stop the IRA etc raising funds by cross border activities that were otherwise rife.

I does not matter how anyone wants to look at it, post brexit there will be an EU external border between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, simple fact.

At this point in time there is an agreement between the 2 EU states, the CTA, a bit like a mini Schengen. TM has said she will try and keep the CTA  and then goes on to say she does not want freedom of movement. 'Cherry picking' at its best but at the end of the day it will not be her decision.

In the absence of a customs union there must be customs control between the north and the south, a really contentious issue. This is how Mr Barnier put it and note the "hope to".

 

Without producing a new hard border, they have to find rules for goods and services, without undermining the integrity of the single market, he says.

He says they hope to find “imaginative and concrete solutions”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jun/19/boris-johnson-and-gove-both-back-may-as-tory-leadership-speculation-continues-politics-live

[Grouse]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-racism-immigrant-prejudice-major-factor-leave-vote-win-study-a7801676.html

 

So, anti immigration was a major factor in voting leave. Despite the howls of the Brexiteers ignorance about EU immigrants was indeed influential.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-polish-family-leave-avoid-betting-card-negotiations-talks-theresa-may-a7799441.html

 

And this makes me ashamed and embarrassed.

 

84% of NHS EU workers set to leave before Brexit.

 

Time to reverse all this nonsense and ignore the numbskull Brexiteers.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Grouse

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Germany don't seem to have any problems being in the EU and trading with the rest of the world ... for the simple reason they make things the world wants. The argument that we could do this but are being prevented from doing so by the wicked EU is a fantasy.

Your first paragraph is spot on. Could it be that British management and business owners have not been up to the mark. Maybe a good time to get out of this undemocratic so called Union. A completely fresh start,perhaps bumpy at the start, but we would have the satisfaction of knowing, we would be leaving future generations with a successful and independent country. The alternative to being shackled to the future chaos of the federation of Europe.

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Germany don't seem to have any problems being in the EU and trading with the rest of the world ... for the simple reason they make things the world wants. The argument that we could do this but are being prevented from doing so by the wicked EU is a fantasy.

Germany has had the advantage of not paying its fair share of the defense budget. Big saving on their part. One suggestion, if the EU Bureacrats insist on the U.K. Continuing to subsidizing the E.U. After Brexit.  Then the U.K. Should reduce its contributions to NATO. After all, Russia is a far greater threat to,Germany than to the U.K.

[nontabury]

10 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Sadly, this is true.  And it's not all roses in Germany, by any means.  All the major economies face significant challenges, caused by gross imbalances.  Neither is Germany out to grind us down.  In fact I think it is rather horrified at losing such a valued partner.

 

You know the truly sad thing is Britain could have stayed and forged some much needed reforms on immigration, trade, and EU constitution.  Now we have no means of reeling in its excesses from the outside.  UK just needed to play the rebel awhile- perhaps an immigration blockade- it would have been much more effective.  It also would have earned much kudos.

Did't Cameron suggest much needed reforms. Which the Bureacratic dictators in Brussels rejected, thus leading to Brexit.

Edited June 22, 2017 by nontabury

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-racism-immigrant-prejudice-major-factor-leave-vote-win-study-a7801676.html

 

So, anti immigration was a major factor in voting leave. Despite the howls of the Brexiteers ignorance about EU immigrants was indeed influential.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-polish-family-leave-avoid-betting-card-negotiations-talks-theresa-may-a7799441.html

 

And this makes me ashamed and embarrassed.

 

84% of NHS EU workers set to leave before Brexit.

 

Time to reverse all this nonsense and ignore the numbskull Brexiteers.

I don't think anyone disagrees that the open border policy was one of the major factors for the brexit vote?

 

The disagreements arise when this is equated with racist, as per the headline of the first article.