May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[SheungWan]

Have to laugh at this week's Economist front cover:

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

The London Times article headline January 5: 'Fox And Davis Drove Our Man In Europe To Despair'. What a surprise!

 

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The London Times article headline January 5: 'Fox And Davis Drove Our Man In Europe To Despair'. What a surprise!

 

 

He would say that, wouldn't he? It's precisely because of his underhand attempts to politicise his department in order to hinder brexit that he's 'down the road'.

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Have to laugh at this week's Economist front cover:

 

 

Ah yes, the Economist. Which got it's brexit predictions soooooo wrong.

[Laughing Gravy]

7 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Ah yes, the Economist. Which got it's brexit predictions soooooo wrong.

I wonder if the economist will give a retraction saying how sorry they are for not only getting it wrong but printing absolute tosh.

 

I have to laugh at the economists and many media outlets supporting the leave campaign. They come up with these doomsday predictions, are clearly wrong then just stay silent and then try and spin the downfall of the pound on some markets. you could argue that the downfall has had a positive impact on the economy, depending which side you are on ie import/export.

 

Theoretically nobody can predict with certainty the future so why run a campaign on it.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I wonder if the economist will give a retraction saying how sorry they are for not only getting it wrong but printing absolute tosh.

 

I have to laugh at the economists and many media outlets supporting the leave campaign. They come up with these doomsday predictions, are clearly wrong then just stay silent and then try and spin the downfall of the pound on some markets. you could argue that the downfall has had a positive impact on the economy, depending which side you are on ie import/export.

 

Theoretically nobody can predict with certainty the future so why run a campaign on it.

Every easy to rubbish something without considering the facts. Predictions are based on a model and if the model parameters fail to come about it can hardly be said that the result was inaccurate. Maybe you know for a fact what would have happened if DC had invoked Article 50 the day after the referendum. As it came about the country has 9 months to prepare for Article 50 rather than a few hours.

 

Those that think everything will improve should consider some of the reality around us. The UK is currently a net exporter to the USA to the tune of nearly 50%, who really thinks that Donald Trump will allow that situation to continue. He will be looking for more equality in value either a reduction in exports or increase in imports, neither option being good news.

Once the UK is out of the EU how many actually expect exports to the US to rise above current levels. The UK is also going to be faced with problems with other countries where the UK is currently a net exporter.

[Laughing Gravy]

I have to say Le Penn sums up what the EU is about and the way they are behaving in dealing with Brexit. With this attitude the EU are really putting nails in their own coffins. Quite stupid.

 

"The Front National leader said: "The way the EU has reacted to Brexit has put paid to the few in Europe who still believe that there is an ounce of democracy in this structure, that is the EU. 

"Europe would be showing its true face, as it already has done so in Greece and tried to do with Britain. 

"This EU doesn't move forward by consent because it knows its people no longer adhere to this political structure, it advances via threats, intimidation and blackmail."

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/751212/Marine-Le-Pen-French-National-Front-Brussels-Britain-Brexit-European-Union

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I have to say Le Penn sums up what the EU is about and the way they are behaving in dealing with Brexit. With this attitude the EU are really putting nails in their own coffins. Quite stupid.

 

"The Front National leader said: "The way the EU has reacted to Brexit has put paid to the few in Europe who still believe that there is an ounce of democracy in this structure, that is the EU. 

"Europe would be showing its true face, as it already has done so in Greece and tried to do with Britain. 

"This EU doesn't move forward by consent because it knows its people no longer adhere to this political structure, it advances via threats, intimidation and blackmail."

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/751212/Marine-Le-Pen-French-National-Front-Brussels-Britain-Brexit-European-Union

I agree Le Penn summed it up

'  Front National chief Marine Le Pen has said she would not wish to see France leave the European Union straight away if she came to power but instead would seek to negotiate with the bloc in a bid to reinstate French sovereignty. '

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marine-le-pen-france-renegotiate-eu-membership-european-union-front-national-leader-far-right-french-a7511566.html

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I have to say Le Penn sums up what the EU is about and the way they are behaving in dealing with Brexit. With this attitude the EU are really putting nails in their own coffins. Quite stupid.

 

"The Front National leader said: "The way the EU has reacted to Brexit has put paid to the few in Europe who still believe that there is an ounce of democracy in this structure, that is the EU. 

"Europe would be showing its true face, as it already has done so in Greece and tried to do with Britain. 

"This EU doesn't move forward by consent because it knows its people no longer adhere to this political structure, it advances via threats, intimidation and blackmail."

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/751212/Marine-Le-Pen-French-National-Front-Brussels-Britain-Brexit-European-Union

 

Please excuse me for declining to support the far right parties. Not quite my thing....

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

I agree Le Penn summed it up

'  Front National chief Marine Le Pen has said she would not wish to see France leave the European Union straight away if she came to power but instead would seek to negotiate with the bloc in a bid to reinstate French sovereignty. '

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/marine-le-pen-france-renegotiate-eu-membership-european-union-front-national-leader-far-right-french-a7511566.html

 

In other words she is wanting to change  the EU into something like the previous  EEC. This is exactly what the Briexiteers would have preferred. As this is what the British electorate voted for in 1973, not the undemocratic bureaucracy that we now have in Brussels, run by a group of arrogant bully boys.

Edited January 7, 2017 by nontabury

[rockingrobin]

11 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

In other words she is wanting to change  the EU into something like the previous  EEC. This is exactly what the Briexiteers would have preferred. As this is what the British electorate voted for in 1973, not the undemocratic bureaucracy that we now have in Brussels, run by a group of arrogant bully boys.

The British didnt have a vote on the EU in 1973

 

[nontabury]

 

14 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

The British didnt have a vote on the EU in 1973

 

 

Correct. In 1973 the British people voted to join the EEC. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by nontabury

[nontabury]

Before last June's referendum the Bank of England's Governor, Mark Carney,Morgan Stanley and the IMF all predicted a catastrophic outcome if the UK voted for Briexit.

 Now 6 months down the road they admit they were completely wrong. So When will the Remoaners on this thread also admit they were wrong,or are they still hoping and praying that events turn out bad for their country.

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

 

 

Correct. In 1973 the British people voted to join the EEC. 

The Treaty was signed January 1972, 

The ECA bill was forwarded and debated in parliament 1972

January 1973 the UK became a member of the EEC

1975 a referendum held 

[rockingrobin]

28 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Before last June's referendum the Bank of England's Governor, Mark Carney,Morgan Stanley and the IMF all predicted a catastrophic outcome if the UK voted for Briexit.

 Now 6 months down the road they admit they were completely wrong. So When will the Remoaners on this thread also admit they were wrong,or are they still hoping and praying that events turn out bad for their country.

As Phillip Hammond said, forecasts are based on a model, e.g the Treasury assumed Art 50 would be implemented immediately and did not include any mitigating policy measures that may be introduced. 

[7by7]

6 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

In other words she is wanting to change  the EU into something like the previous  EEC. This is exactly what the Briexiteers would have preferred. As this is what the British electorate voted for in 1973, not the undemocratic bureaucracy that we now have in Brussels, run by a group of arrogant bully boys.

 

You are making a common mistake, one which, I believe, caused many people to make the wrong decision last June. The EU is not undemocratic.

 

The EU is governed, it's laws and rules made by:

• the European council, which is made up of each member state's head of government; for the UK that's the Prime Minister,
• the council of ministers; which is made up of ministers from each member state's elected government, and/or
• the European parliament, which is made up of directly elected members from each member state.

The commission, the arrogant bully boys you call them, is akin to the British civil service; it drafts and advises, but does not make decisions.

 

How the EU works: who runs the EU?

 

It is not the commission with whom the UK government will have to agree a deal with; it is the council; i.e. the heads of government of the remaining 27.

[rockingrobin]

15 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

You are making a common mistake, one which, I believe, caused many people to make the wrong decision last June. The EU is not undemocratic.

 

The EU is governed, it's laws and rules made by:

• the European council, which is made up of each member state's head of government; for the UK that's the Prime Minister,
• the council of ministers; which is made up of ministers from each member state's elected government, and/or
• the European parliament, which is made up of directly elected members from each member state.

The commission, the arrogant bully boys you call them, is akin to the British civil service; it drafts and advises, but does not make decisions.

 

How the EU works: who runs the EU?

 

It is not the commission with whom the UK government will have to agree a deal with; it is the council; i.e. the heads of government of the remaining 27.

When the UK joined in 1973, the European Parliament was appointed by each of the member states national parliaments.From 1979 direct elections took place

[AlexRich]

The Financial Times reporting that Beijing has cooled on a series of high-profile projects aimed at fostering closer ties to the UK ... looks like they need to find a new partner with access to Europe?

 

... taking back control!

[Khun Han]

12 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

As Phillip Hammond said, forecasts are based on a model, e.g the Treasury assumed Art 50 would be implemented immediately and did not include any mitigating policy measures that may be introduced. 

 

If Article 50 had been enacted the day after the referendum, we would currently trading under the same rules and conditions that we are actually trading under. The 'expert' forecasters have admitted that they got this one badly wrong. It's a shame remainer posters on ThaiVisa are unable to do the same, because it would help the discussions to move on if they did.

[AlexRich]

We don't leave the single market until 2019 at the earliest ... so it's 2020 when Brexiteers can point to how great things are post EU, or not, as the case will be. 

[onthesoi]

30 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

The 'expert' forecasters have admitted that they got this one badly wrong.

 

lolzers ..can we have a link to this nonsense, so we can all have a good laugh about how you didnt read the article properly....again!

[Khun Han]

26 minutes ago, onthesoi said:

57 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

The 'expert' forecasters have admitted that they got this one badly wrong.

 

lolzers ..can we have a link to this nonsense, so we can all have a good laugh about how you didnt read the article properly....again!

 

Here's an assortment of sources from Andy Haldane (so you can't try to discredit the source):

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors

 

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/750676/Andy-Haldane-Bank-of-England-economist-Brexit-forecast-failings

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-05/britons-to-throttle-back-spending-in-2017-boe-s-haldane-says

 

And from Morgan Stanley:

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/morgan-stanley-brexit-economic-forecasts-2017-1

 

By the way, did you read that link I recently posted to the latest Markit figures (the ones which show that the economy is expanding)? You know, Markit? the economic analysis company who's one month post-referendum blip results you linked to to 'prove' that the economy is in crisis?

[SheungWan]

According to a report in The Times (Jan 5) Liam Fox and David Davis repeatedly failed to understand briefings in the weeks after their appointments, which drove Sir Ivan Rogers 'to despair'. He considered resigning on more than one occasion. In short, both Fox and Davis are a bit dense. Quelle Surprise for Hard Brexiteers!

[Laughing Gravy]

22 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Please excuse me for declining to support the far right parties. Not quite my thing....

Where did I say I supported the far right in Farnce. I quoted what she said. I don't support the far right but then I don't support the left either.

[Laughing Gravy]

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

You are making a common mistake, one which, I believe, caused many people to make the wrong decision last June. The EU is not undemocratic.

 

The EU is governed, it's laws and rules made by:

• the European council, which is made up of each member state's head of government; for the UK that's the Prime Minister,
• the council of ministers; which is made up of ministers from each member state's elected government, and/or
• the European parliament, which is made up of directly elected members from each member state.

The commission, the arrogant bully boys you call them, is akin to the British civil service; it drafts and advises, but does not make decisions.

 

How the EU works: who runs the EU?

 

It is not the commission with whom the UK government will have to agree a deal with; it is the council; i.e. the heads of government of the remaining 27.

So when can I get my democratic vote on the EU council and more important the commission?

 

I can vote in the general election and vote MPs in or out but the EU commission I can't and yes they are a self serving arrogant boys club.

[Khun Han]

45 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

According to a report in The Times (Jan 5) Liam Fox and David Davis repeatedly failed to understand briefings in the weeks after their appointments, which drove Sir Ivan Rogers 'to despair'. He considered resigning on more than one occasion. In short, both Fox and Davis are a bit dense. Quelle Surprise for Hard Brexiteers!

 

Translated into plain English: Both Fox and Davis refused to come around to Rogers' pro-remain viewpoint.

 

Rogers is now completely discredited. He has left the civil service. Expect him to pop up on the board of some globalist enterprise-or-other in the near-to-middle future.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Khun Han

[Khun Han]

7 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

So when can I get my democratic vote on the EU council and more important the commission?

 

I can vote in the general election and vote MPs in or out but the EU commission I can't and yes they are a self serving arrogant boys club.

 

If you get a very powerful telescope out, you will see a clear connection between your vote and EU management. Robin will be along shortly to explain it to you.

[Laughing Gravy]

33 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Translated into plain English: Both Fox and Davis refused to come around to Rogers' pro-remain viewpoint.

 

Rogers is now completely discredited. He has left the civil service. Expect him to pop up on the board of some globalist enterprise-or-other in the near-to-middle future.

Yes he like many others are seeing their 'gravy train' getting taken away. Far too many fat cats on the EU payroll, making far to much money and now seeing that going down the drain. He was a crap negotiator just look what him and Cameron came away with. The UK are better without him.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

So when can I get my democratic vote on the EU council and more important the commission?

 

I can vote in the general election and vote MPs in or out but the EU commission I can't and yes they are a self serving arrogant boys club.

 

To reiterate, nobody is claiming the EU was or is without fault; far from it. However, many of us feel the best way forward is to force change from within.

 

Knowledge about EU workings is very weak as frequently demonstrated here but no one is saying that there isn't a democratic deficit.

 

You often claim others are arrogant. Have you always felt like that?

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

So when can I get my democratic vote on the EU council and more important the commission?

 

I can vote in the general election and vote MPs in or out but the EU commission I can't and yes they are a self serving arrogant boys club.

 

This would be one of the 'democratic' guys who prefers Royal Prerogative to parliamentary democracy.