If you are a Brit you cannot hide - scary !!

[Savilesghost]

19 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I am on the UK electoral register, with my Thai address. You can renew that by phone and ballot papers are sent here. HMRC know I have been and am still non resident. I have a rented out UK property and declare the income on that and on my UK bank accounts only when completing my UK tax return. 

 

You have to follow the rules. Are you resident or non resident? They have a newish criteria now. I know someone who makes sure she is in the UK for enough time each year to keep her NHS entitlement up. She rents one property out and keeps another for when she's in the UK. That's her choice but means she's resident in the UK for tax purposes. 

If you have a property that is always available for your use, and you pay community tax then you won't be non resident - or you'll have a hard time convincing them. If it's rented out, you rarely if ever visit the UK, don't do any work there, have no dependents there then they will acknowledge your non resident status. 

 

Some UK banks, building societies etc don't want the hassle of having customers who might or might not be non resident. They want to make their own life easier and avoid any money laundering or tax avoidance issues and the extra administration.

 

Others simply request confirmation of your non resident tax statue. 

 

Remember that if you are classed as UK resident then you must declare world wide income which includes all bank interest wherever paid.

 

 

And your remarks give insight as to where HMRC ultimately want to go...ie making being declared non-resident for tax harder and harder, just like Aussie does these days 

 

In the future i believe they are going to make it virtually impossble to be declared non resident for tax in the UK, if you hold UK bank accounts, property, ties to the UK etc.

[nontabury]

On January 16, 2017 at 10:36 PM, al007 said:

This is a non topic unless of course you are defrauding the UK government, and then you need to be worried and why not

 

I am a retired UK tax payer living here

 

I only claim what I am allowed to, I do not claim winter fuel allowance or RPI increases in UK pension

 

I have a sterling bank account with my Thailand address, I legally am on the postal voters electoral roll, legally I pay no UK tax

 

I have nothing to fear and sleep well

 

If you are fiddling the UK then you get what you deserve, and why should anyone have any sympathy for you

 

I am grateful for what the UK has done for me, and in the event of some catastrophe the UK would still look after me and pay my medical and housing costs, and I would never be left on the streets

 

  Let's hope you are never taken ill and return to the UK, expecting that the UK would immediately take care of your medical costs. You could be in for a nasty shock.

[nontabury]

On January 17, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Savilesghost said:

Well the European Court of human rights disagrees with you by a 6 to 1 judgement and that was back in 2008  

 

 

Correct, and some of those judges represent countries that do Not discriminate against where their pensioners reside,when it comes to increases in their state pensions. Yet they up-held the UK's government discrimination against British citizens. Is that why it's called the European Court Of Human Rights?

[evadgib]

Given how pourous EU accounts are it's fair to assume some were 'bunged'...

[Eff1n2ret]

33 minutes ago, JimGant said:

So, the Brit treaty with Thailand, by excluding the State Pension in a separate paragraph, seems to be saying that the State Pension is 'other income', which in the treaty is any income not specifically addressed -- and thus taxable first by the country of residence of the taxpayer.

Jim, accepting your point (which I never realised before) that "government pensions" only applies to govt. employee pensions, I wonder if the State Pension, and in fact all other income  paid in the UK is covered by this bit of Article 23 - 'Elimination of Double Taxation':-

(3) In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be
allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income. 

I think the last sentence means that if the rate of Thai taxation on that income is higher than UK, then there might be a liability to claim the difference - but perhaps you have some other interpretation of the whole clause.

Incidentally I also noticed elsewhere in the Treaty that income from "immoveable property", i.e. rental income is  only taxable in the country where the income arises.

[JB300]

Jim, accepting your point (which I never realised before) that "government pensions" only applies to govt. employee pensions, I wonder if the State Pension, and in fact all other income  paid in the UK is covered by this bit of Article 23 - 'Elimination of Double Taxation':-

(3) In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be

allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income. 

I think the last sentence means that if the rate of Thai taxation on that income is higher than UK, then there might be a liability to claim the difference - but perhaps you have some other interpretation of the whole clause.

Incidentally I also noticed elsewhere in the Treaty that income from "immoveable property", i.e. rental income is  only taxable in the country where the income arises.

I read that last sentence as saying that if you've paid more Tax in the UK than you owe in Thailand you'll pay no tax but cannot claim the extra tax paid from Thailand.

[Eff1n2ret]

5 minutes ago, JB300 said:

I read that last sentence as saying that if you've paid more Tax in the UK than you owe in Thailand you'll pay no tax but cannot claim the extra tax paid from Thailand.

Yes, I think that's probably better than what I said.

 

Incidentally, adherents to the idea that 'Big Brother is watching you', which is how this thread started, will be delighted by Article 26 of the Treaty, which says:

 

Article 26 Exchange of Information
(1) The competent authorities of the Contracting States shall exchange such information as is necessary for the carrying out of this Convention or for the prevention of fraud or for the administration of the domestic laws of the Contracting States concerning taxes covered by this Convention insofar as the taxation thereunder is in accordance with this Convention.

 

So they can do it if they want to.

[Rimmer]

Multiple off topic posts have been removed, the topic is about UK not US tax:

 

If you are a Brit you cannot hide

[JimGant]

Quote

How is a discussion on US taxation even relevant to this topic ? 

You're right. How's this for Old World comfort and context:

 

You'll still end up paying whichever country's tax bill is max, e.g., Thailand's tax bill on your 20,000quid of "first dibs" income is 5000quid, but your tax bill from the HMRC on this same 20,000quid is only 3000quid. So, you only get to take a tax credit on your UK taxes of 3000quid -- meaning your out-of-pocket tax bill for the year is 2000quid more than if you only had to file in the UK. Works in reverse too, of course.

 

You do understand, of course, the significance of the two tax treaties with Thailand:  The US one explicitly addresses how Social Security taxation will be addressed, while the UK treaty is silent on State Pension taxation. Significant, I believe, but so sorry I had to introduce America into this discussion. Oh dear.

 

 

 

 

[elliss]

On 1/17/2017 at 2:02 PM, thai3 said:

 

Not giving the increase to some while giving it to others is morally unjustified.

 

    Morrally  ,  where have i heard that before ?.

 

[jacko45k]

19 hours ago, i claudius said:

 

The dream of a man who is not doing it .

i say good luck to them ,they paid in ,they deserve it best of luck to them , i would never report them .

Nor would I want to, I prefer the money would go to those more in need.

Up to you if you condone this type of behaviour, it tells us of your character.

[SaintLouisBlues]

8 hours ago, elliss said:

Morrally  ,  where have i heard that before ?.

What does the law have to do with morality?

[JB300]

How is a discussion on US taxation even relevant to this topic ? 

You're right. How's this for Old World comfort and context:

 

You'll still end up paying whichever country's tax bill is max, e.g., Thailand's tax bill on your 20,000quid of "first dibs" income is 5000quid, but your tax bill from the HMRC on this same 20,000quid is only 3000quid. So, you only get to take a tax credit on your UK taxes of 3000quid -- meaning your out-of-pocket tax bill for the year is 2000quid more than if you only had to file in the UK. Works in reverse too, of course.

 

You do understand, of course, the significance of the two tax treaties with Thailand:  The US one explicitly addresses how Social Security taxation will be addressed, while the UK treaty is silent on State Pension taxation. Significant, I believe, but so sorry I had to introduce America into this discussion. Oh dear.

 

 

 

 

I can only speak to my experience of having an active (salary) income in Singapore & passive (rental, dividend, bank interest) in U.K. I'm non-tax resident in UK / Tax resident in Singapore and the DTA between the 2 goes...

1) Singapore is not interested in any income I earn outside of the country and doesn't ask me for any details when I do my tax return

2) UK only wants to know if I earn money outside of the UK & if this is in a country that has a DTA with the UK, as the answer(s) Yes they don't want to know any details.

I Guess the situation could be different in a country that taxes overseas income & different again if the US is involved, perhaps somebody can share their experiences.

[ubonjoe]

Several inflammatory, baiting and bickering posts have been removed. Time to end it.

[JimGant]

Savile, I'm not specifically talking about US tax schemes -- but I was contrasting how UK State Pensions and US Social Security can be treated differently by Thai tax authorities. The US treaty specifically states that Social Security can only be taxed by the US -- in all situations. However, there is zip mention of the State Pension in the UK-Thai treaty. And the paragraph on government pensions specifically states that it is referring to pensions earned by performing government service. This would exclude State Pensions -- if I'm correctly assuming a State Pension is pretty much like our Social Security. Thus, State Pensions, as "other income," would, per the treaty, be taxable first by Thailand. Now, of course, you could get a tax credit for this Thai tax under the no double taxation criteria. But if you owe no UK tax on it, due to your personal allowance, well then you're out the full fare of the Thai tax --'cause there ain't no double taxation involved in this scenario.

 

Chiang mai's reminder that having a UK bank to filter your State Pension might be a good idea is right on -- if Thai tax authorities ever wake up to what's available under certain tax treaties. You didn't agree with this, saying:

Quote

As regards the Thai tax man comment...rubbish, this is exactly what a reciprocal tax agreement is for, a pension taxed at source in the UK, you have proof from HMRC that the money has been taxed, the Thai tax man will not touch you,

 

....unless the tax treaty says Thailand has 'first dibs' on taxing your State Pension. Then, if your State Pension had been taxed at source, it's up to you to apply the Thai taxes as a credit.

 

Again, the Americans can direct deposit to Thailand their Social Security, with no fear of Thai taxation -- due to how our agreement was written. Not sure why the Brits didn't address the State Pension in their treaty with Thailand ..... But, it does require that you not be too obvious about remitting to Thailand 'in the year earned.' These guys may just wake up when they finally do a cost/benefit analysis.

[chiang mai]

Again for comparative purposes:

 

a US SSc payment made to a UK resident is not taxable by the US under the tax treaty, that same payments is however taxable where that UK subject is resident in Thailand.

 

The same is true of the UK. A state Pension payment made to a UK resident is not taxable, private pensions that are made in addition are. That same UK State Pension payment that is made to a UK subject who is resident in Thailand is not taxable by the UK BUT is potentially taxable in Thailand if it is remitted there during the year it was earned.

 

 

[yardrunner]

14 hours ago, JimGant said:

You're right. How's this for Old World comfort and context:

 

You'll still end up paying whichever country's tax bill is max, e.g., Thailand's tax bill on your 20,000quid of "first dibs" income is 5000quid, but your tax bill from the HMRC on this same 20,000quid is only 3000quid. So, you only get to take a tax credit on your UK taxes of 3000quid -- meaning your out-of-pocket tax bill for the year is 2000quid more than if you only had to file in the UK. Works in reverse too, of course.

 

You do understand, of course, the significance of the two tax treaties with Thailand:  The US one explicitly addresses how Social Security taxation will be addressed, while the UK treaty is silent on State Pension taxation. Significant, I believe, but so sorry I had to introduce America into this discussion. Oh dear.

 

 

 

 

I went to see the legal department of the Thai revenue service and they consider the UK state pension to be a government pension which is not taxable in Thailand but the UK tax authorities disagree

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, yardrunner said:

I went to see the legal department of the Thai revenue service and they consider the UK state pension to be a government pension which is not taxable in Thailand but the UK tax authorities disagree

 

That seems very strange indeed. Since the UK itself doesn't tax the State Pension onshore UK I can't understand why they think it might be taxable in another country.

[yardrunner]

8 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

That seems very strange indeed. Since the UK itself doesn't tax the State Pension onshore UK I can't understand why they think it might be taxable in another country.

The state pension is not taxed directly but it is included in your taxable earnings and if you go over the tax threshold with other income you will have to pay whatever tax is due but the tax will be stopped out of the other income not the state pension as they are unable or unwilling to tax the state pension at source 

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

 

That seems very strange indeed. Since the UK itself doesn't tax the State Pension onshore UK I can't understand why they think it might be taxable in another country.

 

Actually yes I can see why they think it would be taxable offshore, same year remittance and no tax treaty to prevent it.

[jinners]

On 1/11/2017 at 5:08 PM, i claudius said:

 

If i remember right its anything over 10k that is looked at , money laundering

The one eyed Scottish idiot Brown reduced that to 5k and many banks have anti laundering procedures lower than that.

[JB300]

 
That seems very strange indeed. Since the UK itself doesn't tax the State Pension onshore UK I can't understand why they think it might be taxable in another country.

I don't get where this "UK State Pension" is not taxed comes from, it is considered part of your income & so is added to the rest of your income & taxed.

Granted it is first in the pot & is always less than the PTA so there's never any tax to pay on it, but it's taxed (albeit at zero %) none the less.

E.G if I have a state pension of £8k pa & 12k of other income, I'm taxed on £20k

If I have no state pension & £20k of income, I'm taxed exactly the same amount.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, JB300 said:

 

 

I don't get where this "UK State Pension" is not taxed comes from, it is considered part of your income & so is added to the rest of your income & taxed.

Granted it is first in the pot & is always less than the PTA so there's never any tax to pay on it, but it's taxed (albeit at zero %) none the less.

E.G if I have a state pension of £8k pa & 12k of other income, I'm taxed on £20k

If I have no state pension & £20k of income, I'm taxed exactly the same amount.

 

 

 

 

Agreed it is a bit of a misnomer since the State Pension never exceeds the Personal Allowance but it does serve as the tax foundation  for all other income that is then taxable.

[uptheos]

On 1/11/2017 at 10:25 PM, elliss said:

 

      Spot on ,  

I  have  this  mounth ,  been requested  by Nationwide ,

           to provide evidence of my UK , residential address .

        If evidence is not presented , your account is closed ,  I know . 

 

      It pays to be on the electoral register and pay community tax .

      The  belt is tightening , Big  brother is  watching us .

 

             

 

Only the owner or leaseholder pays the council tax, you can be on the electoral register if you provide proof of address.

[Savilesghost]

8 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

That seems very strange indeed. Since the UK itself doesn't tax the State Pension onshore UK I can't understand why they think it might be taxable in another country.

Because its all to with tax  thresholds/ tax residency / and local tax laws

 

1. A pensioner who lives in Thailand 180 + days is resident in Thailand for tax purposes 

2. Thai tax doesnt specifically exclude pensions 

3. UK doesnt tax the money 

4 Money brought in into Thailand " same year its earned"

 

Thai tax man would be within his rights to claim tax off this amount

 

Therefore back of a cigarette packet calculation 

 

Full UK state pension is 155 pound a week = just over GBP 8000 /yr or thb 338, 000/year or there abouts

 

Per thai tax table first 150 k is tax free, balance taxed at around 5% leaving around thb thb 329,000 , so in reality they would only be getting hit for around thb 9.5k/year which is not a bad deal and maybe the pensionerd shouldnt whinge so much 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rockingrobin]

9 hours ago, chiang mai said:

 

That seems very strange indeed. Since the UK itself doesn't tax the State Pension onshore UK I can't understand why they think it might be taxable in another country.

Doesnt Article 19 sub para 2 cover this

 

(a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State. (b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/507424/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

[JB300]

Because its all to with tax  thresholds/ tax residency / and local tax laws

 

1. A pensioner who lives in Thailand 180 + days is resident in Thailand for tax purposes 

2. Thai tax doesnt specifically exclude pensions 

3. UK doesnt tax the money 

4 Money brought in into Thailand " same year its earned"

 

Thai tax man would be within his rights to claim tax off this amount

 

Therefore back of a cigarette packet calculation 

 

Full UK state pension is 155 pound a week = just over GBP 8000 /yr or thb 338, 000/year or there abouts

 

Per thai tax table first 150 k is tax free, balance taxed at around 5% leaving around thb thb 329,000 , so in reality they would only be getting hit for around thb 9.5k/year which is not a bad deal and maybe the pensionerd shouldnt whinge so much 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, the only thing I can say is either don't remit your income within 1 year of receiving it or move to the Philippines, (easy to extend your visa up to 3 years without leaving the country or $20,000 USD in a bank gets you an SRRV and no tax on your pension income

Not starting (yet another PI Vs TH) debate & hope the mods delete this & the replies if it turns into one but if your finances mean you can't buffer a year (max approx £8k) then might be worth considering an alternative destination, especially one where you'll get your annual State Pension Increases (this is a thread about Brits yes[emoji106])

[chiang mai]

43 minutes ago, Savilesghost said:

Because its all to with tax  thresholds/ tax residency / and local tax laws

 

1. A pensioner who lives in Thailand 180 + days is resident in Thailand for tax purposes 

2. Thai tax doesnt specifically exclude pensions 

3. UK doesnt tax the money 

4 Money brought in into Thailand " same year its earned"

 

Thai tax man would be within his rights to claim tax off this amount

 

Therefore back of a cigarette packet calculation 

 

Full UK state pension is 155 pound a week = just over GBP 8000 /yr or thb 338, 000/year or there abouts

 

Per thai tax table first 150 k is tax free, balance taxed at around 5% leaving around thb thb 329,000 , so in reality they would only be getting hit for around thb 9.5k/year which is not a bad deal and maybe the pensionerd shouldnt whinge so much 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you even bothered to read the posts since that post you responded to!!!

 

 

[Savilesghost]

48 minutes ago, JB300 said:

Wow, the only thing I can say is either don't remit your income within 1 year of receiving it or move to the Philippines, (easy to extend your visa up to 3 years without leaving the country or $20,000 USD in a bank gets you an SRRV and no tax on your pension income

Not starting (yet another PI Vs TH) debate & hope the mods delete this & the replies if it turns into one but if your finances mean you can't buffer a year (max approx £8k) then might be worth considering an alternative destination, especially one where you'll get your annual State Pension Increases (this is a thread about Brits yes)

Just giving the  factual implication if the Thai tax man decided to tax Thailand resident UK pensioners whose only income is a state pension,  less than thb 10k year is peanuts...

 

You will find there are those in this postion who "borrow for a fee" the 800k required for the extension based on retirement given the GBP  8k year doesnt meet the 65k/m criteria 

[Savilesghost]

31 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Have you even bothered to read the posts since that post you responded to!!!

 

 

Yes but you never explained fully, remitted same year is not the only criteris in this case