Dual U.K Thai passports/overstay/flying to U.K

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

If using a foreign  passport meant they are considered an alien, this would be in violation of section 37 of the constitution. It would allow the authorities to both deport and bar a Thai  national

 

I already wrote they could not be denied entry to the country which is written in the constitution if they were banned from entering the country in their foreign passport. Deportation would not happen it they had a Thai ID card to show if they were ever asked for a ID. You have to remember the immigration act was written in 1979 which is long before the current constitution.

FYI there is a clause of the police order for extensions of stay that allows Thai nationals to apply for a one year extensions of stay after proving they are Thai. It is meant for Thai's that did not have a Thai passport when they entered the country.

 

[cleopatra2]

8 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I already wrote they could not be denied entry to the country which is written in the constitution if they were banned from entering the country in their foreign passport. Deportation would not happen it they had a Thai ID card to show if they were ever asked for a ID. You have to remember the immigration act was written in 1979 which is long before the current constitution.

FYI there is a clause of the police order for extensions of stay that allows Thai nationals to apply for a one year extensions of stay after proving they are Thai. It is meant for Thai's that did not have a Thai passport when they entered the country.

 

It is the person that is banned not the passport.

Both the Nationality act and immigration act define an alien as someone not of Thai nationality. I have not seen or know of any law which states alien means the use of a foreign passport

[cleopatra2]

35 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I already wrote they could not be denied entry to the country which is written in the constitution if they were banned from entering the country in their foreign passport. Deportation would not happen it they had a Thai ID card to show if they were ever asked for a ID. You have to remember the immigration act was written in 1979 which is long before the current constitution.

FYI there is a clause of the police order for extensions of stay that allows Thai nationals to apply for a one year extensions of stay after proving they are Thai. It is meant for Thai's that did not have a Thai passport when they entered the country.

 

Regarding the Police Order  you reference , is this not concerned with former Thai nationals , those who no longer hold Thai nationality , visiting family.

[ubonjoe]

9 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Regarding the Police Order  you reference , is this not concerned with former Thai nationals , those who no longer hold Thai nationality , visiting family.

Not entirely. Unless a they renounce their Thai nationality (not easy to do) they are still Thai from birth if either parent is Thai.

Immigration will accept the application with only basic proof they are Thai (for example a foreign birth certificate showing one of their parents is Thai). Many have entered on a foreign passport, applied for the extension and then were able to get further proof such as a birth certificate, house book registry and etc so they can get a ID card and passport.

[cleopatra2]

40 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Not entirely. Unless a they renounce their Thai nationality (not easy to do) they are still Thai from birth if either parent is Thai.

Immigration will accept the application with only basic proof they are Thai (for example a foreign birth certificate showing one of their parents is Thai). Many have entered on a foreign passport, applied for the extension and then were able to get further proof such as a birth certificate, house book registry and etc so they can get a ID card and passport.

Apologies for persisting, but I read it different , immigration are accepting that the person was formerly  a Thai national on granting the exstension 

 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Apologies for persisting, but I read it different , immigration are accepting that the person was formerly  a Thai national on granting the exstension 

 

It says more than that. You left out the part about having a parent that is or was Thai.

Source: Police Order 327/2557  

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

It says more than that. You left out the part about having a parent that is or was Thai.

Source: Police Order 327/2557  

That police order supports the claim the extension is granted to person who do not posses Thai nationality.

In the case of a person who claims to be Thai but requires to provide proof of such claim an extension of 180 days is given via a different section of the same police order

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

In the case of a person who claims to be Thai but requires to provide proof of such claim an extension of 180 days is given via a different section of the same police order

I assume you mean this one. I not sure what it is really for. It does not mention any nationality. I am certain it is not for a Thai since clause 2.23 is for them.

 

[cleopatra2]

27 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I assume you mean this one. I not sure what it is really for. It does not mention any nationality. I am certain it is not for a Thai since clause 2.23 is for them.

 

This is for section 57 of the immigration act

Section 2.23 clearly states persons who used to have

Edited August 5, 2018 by cleopatra2

[NanLaew]

On 1/30/2017 at 9:49 AM, Crossy said:

 

Indeed, Rule-1 of holding multiple passports "Never show or give more than one to an immigration officer (or for that matter any official)".

Unless you are facing the inbound immigration officer, ie. still air-side, and after 5 minutes of his rifling back and forth through your offered passport with increasing levels of muttering, he asks if you have another passport.

 

That's called 'game over'.

 

(Their perceived game, not yours of course.)

[kirstymelb101]

Hmmm okay, I think you guys have gone off topic a little! As mentioned, the OP was in the same situation as me. That's why I'm curious as to what happened in his case? I'm guessing the 20k fine is unavoidable, the ban stamp in my Aus pp howeva I'm unsure of what will happen..... I haven't found any clear cases like mine other than the OP's... I'm  sure I won't get in any real trouble once they establish I'm a Thai. But this is Thailand, and in reality it all depends on the officer I deal with at the time ? ?

[Arkady]

The police order was clearly intended for people who have renounced Thai nationality or are entitled to Thai nationality but don't have a Thai passport,  which could either be because they haven't organised one yet or have another nationality that strictly forbids dual nationality.  Due to the wording they have to include anyone who has a Thai parent and entered the Kingdom on a foreign passport, whether they have a Thai passport or not.

 

Immigration has adopted the practice of treating anyone who enters the Kingdom on a foreign passport as an alien, which is a not unreasonable point of view, particularly as they need to close out the loop on aliens' visas.  It is my opinion that any Thai who was charged an overstay fine could file a case in the Administrative Court and would might win.  On the other hand, the court might take the view that the person presented himself to Immigration as a foreigner and did not disclose that he was also a Thai citizen at the point of entry.  Therefore Immigration was in its rights to take the foreign passport at face value and treat the holder as a alien.  I would put my money on the overstayer winning but it is rather academic because no one would spend significant money on legal fees or spend a huge amount of time to try to get back only 20k.  The UK clearly allows Brits to enter on foreign passports, if they feel like it, and then will not take any action against them for overstaying when they know they are Brits.  But Thailand doesn't have any clear rules on dual citizenship or entering the country on a foreign passport.  So it is left to the interpretation of individual officials.

 

The bottom line is how long will you be prepared to spend arguing with an Immigration officer who insists on fining you 20k.  It would be worth asking to see the shift manager, of course, but would you be willing to miss your flight to keep on arguing, if they don't back down.  Ubon Joe has already given the best advice - hope to slip through the net but bring 20k in cash with you in case you are fined and can't persuade the supervisor that he has no constitutional right to fine you.  Alternatively with a little planning it is easy enough to either leave the country or extend the visa under the police order rule before it is expires and then return on your Thai passport.  I don't see any point in arguing over the fact that Immigration chooses to consider someone who enters on a foreign passport as a foreigner.  In most cases they are correct.

[Arkady]

On 8/5/2018 at 11:49 AM, kirstymelb101 said:

Hmmm okay, I think you guys have gone off topic a little! As mentioned, the OP was in the same situation as me. That's why I'm curious as to what happened in his case? I'm guessing the 20k fine is unavoidable, the ban stamp in my Aus pp howeva I'm unsure of what will happen..... I haven't found any clear cases like mine other than the OP's... I'm  sure I won't get in any real trouble once they establish I'm a Thai. But this is Thailand, and in reality it all depends on the officer I deal with at the time ? ?

You will be fined the 20k, if they are able to match you to your entry on the Oz passport, but you won't be blacklisted or get into any other trouble.  However, it would not be worth trying re-enter on the Oz passport to test this, if you are caught. Their software is not perfect and they are not able to make the match in 100% of cases. It's worth arriving at the airport early, so you can argue the toss, if they want to fine you.  Ask to see the supervisor and show him or her the relevant clause in the constitution.  If you can't get them to back down by the time you need to go the gate, just smile politely, pay up, wai the officers and move on.

[Maestro]

On 8/4/2018 at 11:13 AM, kirstymelb101 said:

I'm currently in the same pickle as the OP. Also a dual national Thai and Australian.. Came here 4 yrs ago on my Aus PP, which at this point in time I didn't have Thai credentials.  While being here I got my Tabian-barn sorted and was issued a Thai I.D card and passport.... I called a legal adviser (mind this was 4 yrs ago) He informed me not to worry, since I'm Thai by birth, once I can prove citizenship it won't matter.... TURNS out now this was false information .. GRrRrRrRR...

I tend to return home in a few months for my brothers wedding. My question is, will I be blacklisted and fined the 20k bht when I leave?  EVEN though I have a Thai I.D card and passport....

Please help me

 

The likelihood of your getting fined for overstay depends largely on your answers to the following two questions:

1. Were you, as your above post suggests, born outside Thailand?
2. When flying to Australia in a few months, do you intend to present your Australian or your Thai passport to the Thai immigration official for the Thai departure stamp?

Question to @ubonjoe and iothers: can a passenger with a Thai passport use the electronic immigration gate also on departure, not only on arrival?

[ubonjoe]

4 hours ago, Maestro said:

Question to @ubonjoe and iothers: can a passenger with a Thai passport use the electronic immigration gate also on departure, not only on arrival?

They can use the auto gates for departure and arrival.

[Arkady]

On 8/7/2018 at 2:40 AM, Maestro said:

 

The likelihood of your getting fined for overstay depends largely on your answers to the following two questions:

1. Were you, as your above post suggests, born outside Thailand?
2. When flying to Australia in a few months, do you intend to present your Australian or your Thai passport to the Thai immigration official for the Thai departure stamp?

Question to @ubonjoe and iothers: can a passenger with a Thai passport use the electronic immigration gate also on departure, not only on arrival?

 

Definitely the e-gates are the way to go but passports presented there should be subjected to the same computerised check that the IO subjects them to.  If the system makes a match with a foreign passport overstay, it will throw up a red flag and not let the passenger through, obliging him to go to a manned counter. 

 

Just arrive early and go through the e-gates.  I would guess the chance that nothing will happen is at least 50% but have B20k and a copy of the Constitution in your pocket in case it's not your lucky day.  If they want to fine you, ask for the supervisor and tell them very politely and calmly that, in your opinion, this would be inconsistent with the Constitution.  If they insist, ask to take details of their names and ranks because you feel a fine would infringe your constitutional rights as a Thai citizen and on principle you would look like to pursue the issue in the Administrative Court.  Most officials are terrified of getting bogged down in cases in the Administrative Courts because it is very slow and burdensome for them and decisions sometimes go against them.  A good example was two naturalised Thais whose citizenship was revoked by order of the Interior Minister after they were involved in some type of gambling business.  The case took 16 years to pass through all levels of the Admin Courts and finally the Supreme Administrative Court found that the minister was wrong to revoke their citizenship, ordering the Interior Ministry to restore it. If they believe you are not bluffing about the Admin Court, they are quite likely to back down immediately, rather than having a case hanging over them for years, which they would in all likelihood lose, since the must know the legal grounds to fining a Thai for overstaying are somewhat flimsy to say the least but just think it is something they can get away with and serves people right for trying to mess up their system with two passports.