Australian Embassy - Proof of income now required for Stat Decs

[Will27]

Just read this a little while ago.

 

Also confirmed on the Embassy's website.

 

Ronald J Elliott, Honorary Consul of Australia in Chiang Mai

· 14 hrs ·

 

Australians – Please Take Note

Changes to Obtaining an Income Statutory Declaration

Many Australians use Notarial services of the Embassy Consular team in Bangkok or the bimonthly Outreach Program to Chiang Mai to complete documentation for their annual Thai visa renewals.

...

The Australian Embassy has advised that if you complete and are signing a Statutory Declaration claiming a monthly income amount in support of a retirement or other visa, you must now provide

proof of that income such as a bank, Superannuation or Centrelink statement to Consular staff.

[Hedghog]

Seems reasonable.

[chainarong]

Sounds reasonable enough , in other words you must be able to substantiate your declaration , one wonders why It wasn't required all along, it would have been in OZ........................................

[mamborobert]

I would think this will have a dramatic fall out for fully dpeendent OZ OAPs.  Especially for those planning to retire in the future.  They will from no on certainly have to use the combination method.

 

Unless one is using the combination method of money in bank and monthly income, and, given proposed legislative changes to reduce Centrelink after 6 weeks overseas and then reduce again by working life in Oz, and current exchange rate........would this not wipe out every single and married OZ OAP and DSP recipent in Thailand???

 

The Maximum Basic OAP rate is currently $797.90 per fn exclusive of Supplement and Energy Supplement which are proposed to go. That comes to $1728.35 pcm and on todays rate converts to 45778.20  Baht pcm if you convert using the full OANDA exhange rate (which you never get in actuality).  The OANDA rate is the exchange conversion rate used by govt depts in OZ.  At this rate (and with no bank combination) a married OAP  scrapes in.  A single OAP is 20k Baht short!  A married OAP will fail if the current exchange rate falls even a fraction when their extension is due to be renewed.

 

If additional income is evidenced and declared does that get passed on to the ATO?

 

What rate is the OZ Embassy going to use?

 

Will we end up with a farcical situation of everyone seeking the conversion rate when it is high and then seeking an extension as long as in declaration validity period for Immigration acceptance.

 

I think a fair few current and prospective fully OAP dependant people are going to have to rethink their retirement plans in Thailand. Or go to the costly revolving visitor visa (which is costly and being clamped down upon itself) or other visa or go without a visa altogether, or start to marry teerak if you are single.....(and then if you declare that does'nt your rate go down to half the married rate? will you have to declare you are married on the declaration in order to get immigration to accept a monthly income of 45k Baht, will the fact that you are married then get passed on to Centrelink in which case pension is reduced and you then fail income requirments in the future?)

 

It seems that without a combination (money seasoned in bank) a married OAP will be borderline ok, a single OAP will be screwed. I do not know enough about DSP but would presume they would be in similar situation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by mamborobert

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, mamborobert said:

What rate is the OZ Embassy going to use?

 

Will we end up with a farcical situation of everyone seeking the conversion rate when it is high and then seeking an extension as long as in declaration validity period for Immigration acceptance.

The declaration is done in Australian dollars not Thai  baht. Immigration will use the exchange rate on the date of application for the extension.

 

[Upnotover]

17 minutes ago, mamborobert said:

I would think this will have a dramatic fall out for fully dpeendent OZ OAPs.  Especially for those planning to retire in the future.  They will from no on certainly have to use the combination method.

Why?  Have they all been lying about their income till now?

[evenstevens]

12 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The declaration is done in Australian dollars not Thai  baht. Immigration will use the exchange rate on the date of application for the extension.

 

all mine (stat decs) so far , have been done in thaibaht   (65.000 ),not A.U.D.

its a Midnight Oil good morning to all

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by evenstevens

[mamborobert]

2 minutes ago, evenstevens said:

all mine (stat decs) so far , have been done in thaibaht (65.000 ),not A.U.D.

its a Midnight Oil good morning to all

 

Same here

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, evenstevens said:

all mine (stat decs) so far , have been done in thaibaht   (65.000 ),not A.U.D.

I find that unusual and I am surprised that immigration accepts them.

Most income letters, declarations,  affidavits and etc are done the a person's home country currency.

[Notout]

You can write anything you like on a stat dec. All the Embassy is doing is witnessing your signature. By signing a stat dec you are saying that everything on it is truthful. If you knowingly sign a false statement on the stat dec then you can be charged with an offence. So you fill out your stat dec then sign it in front of a witness, this being Embassy staff who will then sign it which says that they have witnessed you sign it.

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, evenstevens said:

all mine (stat decs) so far , have been done in thaibaht   (65.000 ),not A.U.D.

its a Midnight Oil good morning to all

 

Presumably in future if you have to provide proof of income from a source in your home country, the amount would then have to be in your home currency on your letter for immigrations so that the amounts correspond to those in the documented proof.

 

On the US affidavit, the amounts shown have to be in US dollars. I always get back up proof even though it's never been asked for and I believe State Dept. policy doesn't allow the consular officer who signs and stamps the form to be held responsible for verifying it other than having you swear to its truthfulness. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Suradit69

[hobobo]

3 hours ago, Hedghog said:

Seems reasonable.

Gone are the good old days when the only "proof" required to obtain a yearly Non-Immigrant O was self-declaration. I forgot the exact words, but it was something like "I hereby declare that I have sufficient funds to remain in Thailand for one year" - at least that was on forms obtained from various Consulates in the UK.

[smotherb]

2 hours ago, Upnotover said:

Why?  Have they all been lying about their income till now?

You mean some people would lie about their income; my, my.

[Pepper1959]

I have always written my stat dec in AUD and then the conversion using the rate from Bangkok Bank for that day, since that is the bank I am with. When I then go to Immigration, they never accept my conversion and go online and redo it, To be fair, it is a couple of days later and the actual figure has probably changed by a hundred baht or so. Always do their job letter to their law, which I suppose, is a credit to them and I can never fault them whenever I visit.

[thurien]

3 hours ago, Upnotover said:

Why?  Have they all been lying about their income till now?

pretty obviously...

[Pungdo]

I got mine last month, no proof required, so it is obviously very new, perhaps from March 1.

On the subject of quoting baht or A$ I have always said so many dollars worth x baht at an exchange rate of x.xx baht on that date or the day before I go there.

[stevenl]

Dutch embassy has announced similar, which was postponed after protests. I think it will now be effective from 1 April.

 

Sounds like Thailand has complained that the present declarations are only a signature verification, and meaningless regarding the amounts mentioned. IMO it would be up to immigration to verify the amounts mentioned, but apparently Thailand has convinced other countries to do the Thai immigration work for them.

Edited March 5, 2017 by stevenl

[mfd101]

3 hours ago, Notout said:

You can write anything you like on a stat dec. All the Embassy is doing is witnessing your signature. By signing a stat dec you are saying that everything on it is truthful. If you knowingly sign a false statement on the stat dec then you can be charged with an offence. So you fill out your stat dec then sign it in front of a witness, this being Embassy staff who will then sign it which says that they have witnessed you sign it.

That's how a statdec works in Oz but the implication of the consulate's notice is that that is no longer sufficient for the Oz Emb here. May be a case of too many under resourced Aussies seeking help at the tax payers' expense?

[lensta]

My friend did his in Bkk last week and no such documentation was needed

[mamborobert]

50 minutes ago, lensta said:

My friend did his in Bkk last week and no such documentation was needed

 

As far as I can see the "change" only came through on the embassy web site in the last few days of the week.

 

Now includes :

 

"If you are signing a Statutory Declaration in support of a retirement or other visa, you must provide proof of income such as a bank, Superannuation or Centrelink statement. "

 

http://thailand.embassy.gov.au/bkok/Notarial_Services.html

 

 

It was certainly not required by Embassy staff before and in fact the DFAT related site has not been updated and still reads the "old" understandingof Stat Decs:

 

"By witnessing your signature, the consular official is simply confirming your identity as the person claiming to make the declaration. The consular officer is in no way attesting to the truth or veracity of the content of the statement. "

 

http://smartraveller.gov.au/services/legalising-documents/pages/overseas.aspx

 

There is no mention of supporting evidentary documents being required.

 

Still, its changed, and that is the reality.   Its is certainly going to affect the single fully dependant OAPs and prospective retirees in Thailand.

 

I always thought this was a rather meaningless measure after the initial visa...I mean it does not confirm that you are actually spending that money in part or total in Thailand.  Perhaps another boom in some of the creative accounting and borrowing by some agents in Pattaya will be spreading further afield as people opt for the bank balance or combination method.

Edited March 5, 2017 by mamborobert

[kirkieb]

Signing a Stat Dec is as mentioned by mamborobert a witnessing a signature.

 

The Stat Dec does not require you to say how much you earn.

 

It only needs to say I do solemnly swear that I satisfy all the requirements to obtain a Retirement Visa in accordance with Thailand Immigration Guidelines and requirements.

 

The rest is not the Role of a Notary

[bangkokorbust]

The only country left on the old system is the USA. I know a lot of guys relying on the BS version of income.

All declared income must come from abroad is that right?

[bridge2bridge]

5 hours ago, Upnotover said:

Why?  Have they all been lying about their income till now?

Probably a lot have.

I did.

 

[bazza73]

5 hours ago, mamborobert said:

I think a fair few current and prospective fully OAP dependant people are going to have to rethink their retirement plans in Thailand. Or go to the costly revolving visitor visa (which is costly and being clamped down upon itself) or other visa or go without a visa altogether, or start to marry teerak if you are single.....(and then if you declare that does'nt your rate go down to half the married rate? will you have to declare you are married on the declaration in order to get immigration to accept a monthly income of 45k Baht, will the fact that you are married then get passed on to Centrelink in which case pension is reduced and you then fail income requirments in the future?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think there are too many full OAP in Thailand. The ones that are would have to be using agents to fudge bank deposits, or providing false income statements.

Off topic perhaps, it is possible to live here on the Australian OAP alone. However, the Thai government doesn't really want skint retirees, it prefers well-heeled ones.

I'm very sure if you can't afford to meet the income and/or cash deposit requirements in Thailand, you have no hope in Australia.

Getting married in Thailand to meet income requirements of the Thai authorities ( who can change their rules at any time ) strikes me as a remarkably desperate strategy.

 

[Evilbaz]

This was inevitable when bloggers, and even posters here, were advocating "just write down any figure you want ". Americans are notorious for a slack attitude to this.

They'll be next require to provide proof.

I had to (combo method and 3 pensions) in Phuket 4 years ago.

[khwaibah]

5 minutes ago, Evilbaz said:

This was inevitable when bloggers, and even posters here, were advocating "just write down any figure you want ". Americans are notorious for a slack attitude to this.

They'll be next require to provide proof.

I had to (combo method and 3 pensions) in Phuket 4 years ago.

Your late. Yanks have been required at some immigration office to supply additional info for sometime.

[Preacher]

1 hour ago, kirkieb said:

Signing a Stat Dec is as mentioned by mamborobert a witnessing a signature.

 

The Stat Dec does not require you to say how much you earn.

 

It only needs to say I do solemnly swear that I satisfy all the requirements to obtain a Retirement Visa in accordance with Thailand Immigration Guidelines and requirements.

 

The rest is not the Role of a Notary

 

As has been mentioned, a stat. declaration  is no more just witnessing a signature. Thailand has complained to the embassies and now demands that embassies check the income and just witness the signature. Another problem is, at least for Dutch citizens, the declaration will now state nett income, not gross. I understood that was on agreement with the Thai government.  With the low Euro and now going to nett, I imagine that will put a few persons in trouble.

Do other embassies now demand proof of nett income?

 

For the Americans it might be a little bit different, because of the difference between the federal governments and the different states. The individual states do not like it when the federal government treads in their jurisdiction. For them it might  be the case that they will have to provide evidence at immigration instead of at their embassy.

 

t

[mamborobert]

20 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

I don't think there are too many full OAP in Thailand. The ones that are would have to be using agents to fudge bank deposits, or providing false income statements.

Off topic perhaps, it is possible to live here on the Australian OAP alone. However, the Thai government doesn't really want skint retirees, it prefers well-heeled ones.

I'm very sure if you can't afford to meet the income and/or cash deposit requirements in Thailand, you have no hope in Australia.

Getting married in Thailand to meet income requirements of the Thai authorities ( who can change their rules at any time ) strikes me as a remarkably desperate strategy.

 

 

 

I personally know at least a dozen OZ OAPs living around me.  There has been some signiificant changes to OAPs in Australia as far as asset and income tests, age to access, working life limits, ceaisng some parts of pension payments after being overseas for set periods etc.  

 

Economically this had to be addressed with the coming tidal wave of baby boomers in OZ coming to pension age, having high lifestyle desires but not having had the full benefit of super for their working life.  Human Services have noted that there has been a 30% increase in people receiving the OAP overseas in the last 5 years (the largest cohorts not being in SE Asia  but mostly Greece/Italy/Spain/UK I suppose that is reasonably consistent with the time framing of immigration waves from thoose source countries (then you add in Turkey/Serbia etc).  after European countries the next place that has the most overseas OAPs is NZ.

 

Asia will come to the fore simply as a quality if lifestyle aspiration in time as the previous generational "family"  ties to Europe taper off .  People now want to retire to Indon, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Thailand,  and the PI

 

I agree that getting married here is a drastic strategy. but a lot of people have nothing left in OZ.  Same as in Oz when you reach retirement age the old thinking was you get your lump sum, do up your house, have the overseas holiday, buy the 4wd and caravan...and go for full OAP as an entitlement (rather than current philosophy that it is a form of welfare).  Certainly compulsory super was introduced to addess the costs of an ageing population bubble and encourage people to save for their own retirement.

 

Trouble is the people that I know here on the OAP have zip nil nada nothing in OZ.  No house, no real close family, no assets, do not make trips back, and have been here for 5 years at a minimum.  They are, as you have indicated royally screwed financially if they have to retun to OZ, it's basically a shared room at the Salvos and a St Vinnies cardy for soem of them.  No dilema that they would be better off here.  I have no doubts that some I know will simply not apply for visas any more and "hope" to stay under the wire.

 

I just know these guys from one area of CM (Santitham)...God knows how many are in Nakhon Nowhere or have a defacto wife here they visit and were planning on full OAP and any lump sum to buy a place here for their final years.  I think this change will catch out quite a few that are here already and it will be back to the drawing board for a revision for those planning.

[mamborobert]

17 minutes ago, Preacher said:

 

As has been mentioned, a stat. declaration  is no more just witnessing a signature. Thailand has complained to the embassies and now demands that embassies check the income and just witness the signature. Another problem is, at least for Dutch citizens, the declaration will now state nett income, not gross. I understood that was on agreement with the Thai government.  With the low Euro and now going to nett, I imagine that will put a few persons in trouble.

Do other embassies now demand proof of nett income?

 

For the Americans it might be a little bit different, because of the difference between the federal governments and the different states. The individual states do not like it when the federal government treads in their jurisdiction. For them it might  be the case that they will have to provide evidence at immigration instead of at their embassy.

 

t

The Oz have been ok with declaring a Gross Income.  Now that they want evidence I do not know what type of info you get on a Centrelink statement for example where the OAP may just put you into the initial income tax threshold.  It would be odd to do net as for OZ most would only know that from the annual tax return statement from the ATO.  You could conceivably be paying tax on a gross income and then get it all or partially back through rebates or franking credits or deductions etc when you put in your tax return.  Some with multiple sources of income would not know their true net until after their tax return is done, having said that those people are more than likely not to have an issue with the 65k per month.  

 

Guess this will become fine tuned as people apply.  Maybe even best if Embassy provided a sample or template Stat Dec in teh future...fill in the numbers and source and sign type thing.

[Si Thea01]

If you think it's a problem providing proof, wait until you get the new cost that they charge to witness it.  Has gone from B550.00 to B2000.00.  Happy days all round.