UK government Brexit bill defeated again

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I don't see how you can infer that

 

1) We have been in the EU for last few decades

 

2) Until Brexit discussions started there was "reasonable" stability apart from the 2008 crisis and the black Wednesday crisis 

 

3) I think we had some kind of opposition in parliament

 

 

Feel free to ignore pretty much the entirety of my post but, I'd repeat :-

 

"do you think the self-serving Con MPs are about to revolt against the Con party self-serving final deal? "

 

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[Laughing Gravy]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Feel free to ignore pretty much the entirety of my post but, I'd repeat :-

 

"do you think the self-serving Con MPs are about to revolt against the Con party self-serving final deal? "

 

 

 I  will answer if that's Ok.  Of course they won't. it  would be political suicide.

[Notadoctor]

On 3/11/2017 at 9:40 AM, rockingrobin said:

Then I assume you support a referendum on the final UK / EU negotiated agreement  

"British people have,as a whole" time and again this is rolled out - please it isn't a football match - somerthing played out on one afternoon and it is democracy at work. take a look at the Hawkins video - it explains it simple terms.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

The UK is already a (relative to other wealthy EU members) low tax, low paid, service economy?

Low rent and low service

 

And unequal

 

And unhappy

 

But the Brexiteers know best! Go Trump go .....

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

 I  will answer if that's Ok.  Of course they won't. it  would be political suicide.

 

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Feel free to ignore pretty much the entirety of my post but, I'd repeat :-

 

"do you think the self-serving Con MPs are about to revolt against the Con party self-serving final deal? "

 

 

I did answer a, don't know what happened

 

Many Tory MPs know the amendments are right, they also know their constituents would agree. Let's see if they dare stand up to the whips.

 

TM has already undertaken to give parliament a vote on the deal. One amendment just puts this into law. I wouldn't trust this crew an inch.

[Grouse]

For some reason Farage is with Andrew Neil on the BBC's "The Politics" in an hour's time. They'll be licking each other all over. Niel is totally biased in favour of Brexit and of course Farage is an unspeakable bag of s**t, so I won't bother watching. See how biased the BBC is ? ?

[Jip99]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Low rent and low service

 

And unequal

 

And unhappy

 

But the Brexiteers know best! Go Trump go .....

 

 

Your bitterness is never far from the surface is it.

 

 

Nine months on you still haven't lost your loser's attitude.

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Your bitterness is never far from the surface is it.

 

 

Nine months on you still haven't lost your loser's attitude.

More exasperation that the numpties don't see that the Con Party will stuff them even further!

 

The country clearly needed more community care so the Con Party tax the self employed to pay for it while providing tax breaks for the better of together with companies.

 

The Con Party want to increase inequality not matter what they say. And the crazy thing is, the numpties will support them.

 

Happy I'm out. Too embarrassing for me ?

[impulse]

On 3/8/2017 at 9:03 AM, edandpranee said:

I'm from the States so  I don't know a lot about how it works in England but the House of Lords sounds like our Democrat Party--out of touch with the whole of society and after their own self serving interests.   

 

Can't disagree with that, but you need to include the Republicans, too.   Then you'd be painting the whole picture.

[7by7]

37 minutes ago, Grouse said:

For some reason Farage is with Andrew Neil on the BBC's "The Politics" in an hour's time. They'll be licking each other all over. Niel is totally biased in favour of Brexit and of course Farage is an unspeakable bag of s**t, so I won't bother watching. See how biased the BBC is ? ?

 Whilst I agree with your opinion of Farage; I don't see how his appearing on Andrew Neil's show is proof of BBC bias!

 

Neil has had both Brexit and Remain supporters on his shows in the past. In just this last week, on Tuesday, 7th March, in his Daily Politics show, Neil interviewed Lib Dem leader and remain supporter Tim Farron and last Sunday, 5th March, he had Leader of the House, and Remain supporter, David Lidington.

 

Today, Conservative MP Anna Soubry, who like Farron wants a second referendum, is appearing along with Farage and others.

[Grouse]

51 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Whilst I agree with your opinion of Farage; I don't see how his appearing on Andrew Neil's show is proof of BBC bias!

 

Neil has had both Brexit and Remain supporters on his shows in the past. In just this last week, on Tuesday, 7th March, in his Daily Politics show, Neil interviewed Lib Dem leader and remain supporter Tim Farron and last Sunday, 5th March, he had Leader of the House, and Remain supporter, David Lidington.

 

Today, Conservative MP Anna Soubry, who like Farron wants a second referendum, is appearing along with Farage and others.

Sorry to confuse

 

Both Andrew Niel and Farage are Brexit extreme

 

The BBC shows their lack of bias by having them in the same building

 

 

Anna Soubry was good; she voiced one of my concerns. The Con Party will engineer crashing out within 6 - 9 months with no deal.

 

In short they will arrange a situation where the EU appear intransigent and use that as a hammer. This is why they dare not offer our EU citizens a deal up front. They will end up slashing corporation tax - just watch ?

Edited March 12, 2017 by Grouse

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry to confuse

 

Both Andrew Niel and Farage are Brexit extreme

 

The BBC shows their lack of bias by having them in the same building

 

Sorry, but you are being ridiculous.

 

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Anna Soubry was good; she voiced one of my concerns

 

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I won't bother watching.

 Shome mishtake shurely? hic.

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

Sorry, but you are being ridiculous.

 

 

 Shome mishtake shurely? hic.

Yes, I did watch at least some of it despite my gag reflex; note the timing of my comments

 

I do find Andrew Niel personally biased; he gives Brexiteers an easy time of it.

 

Witch part is ridiculous?

[7by7]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Witch part is ridiculous?

 

30 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

The BBC shows their lack of bias by having them in the same building

I admit to missing your use of the word "lack" even though I quoted it! Mea culpa.

 

A typo by you, or were you really withdrawing your previous accusation of bias?

 

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

I do find Andrew Niel personally biased; he gives Brexiteers an easy time of it

I didn't watch today's programme, but Neil has not in the past come across as a Farage lap dog: from 10th June 2016 Transcript: Nigel Farage grilled by Andrew Neil on Brexit.

 

Of course, he was just as hard on Remain supporters; from 8th June 2016 Transcript: George Osborne vs Andrew Neil on Brexit

[7by7]

22 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

from 10th June 2016 Transcript: Nigel Farage grilled by Andrew Neil on Brexit.

Just come across a complaint to the BBC about that interview.

Quote

I complained by telephone last night about Andrew Neil after watching and listening to him interviewing Nigel Farage.........

 

........I am also expecting to hear a Public Apology from both Mr Neil and from the senior management of the BBC on the method and behaviour of this man towards Mr Farage last night.

 

If you look closely at complaints about BBC bias on this issue, you will find complaints of BBC bias towards both sides; though there are more complaining of Remain bias than Brexit.

 

I found two complaints about bias in the 9th June 2016 edition of Question Time. The first complaining that it was pro Remain; the second that it was pro Leave!

 

I make no comment on the accuracy or otherwise of these complaints; other than to say that if the same programme is being accused of bias from both sides of a debate, then it seems to me that it was actually reasonably balanced.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

 

I admit to missing your use of the word "lack" even though I quoted it! Mea culpa.

 

A typo by you, or were you really withdrawing your previous accusation of bias?

 

I didn't watch today's programme, but Neil has not in the past come across as a Farage lap dog: from 10th June 2016 Transcript: Nigel Farage grilled by Andrew Neil on Brexit.

 

Of course, he was just as hard on Remain supporters; from 8th June 2016 Transcript: George Osborne vs Andrew Neil on Brexit

My comment on the BBC was ironic

 

I have always believed that the BBC strives for balance though it seems the majority do not agree.

 

I think, however, that Andrew Niel is biased.

 

Reading up on game theory including Nash equilibrium over a glass of sherry; it is Sunday ?

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

19 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Maybe you would prefer the GBPEUR graph for the last month then. Clearly the Euro is on the point of imminent collapse.

The UK didn't join the Euro. The ERM/EMS and Black Monday '87 prompted Lamont to get the UK out quick. Some credit 'No B&B' Brown for the UK not joining the Euro, but all he did was sell the gold reserves at bottom price and bankrupt the country due to his lack of any intelligence and simple study of the US markets.

The pound has found itself fairly stable at around 1.22< to the US$, with the UK economy doing pretty much the same as before last June there is no reason it will make a further sharp fall.

Why are you worried about the fall in the Euro? I couldn't care less in the circumstances. All the Euro has done is increase German competitiveness, with a weaker currency than the DM would have had. Plus the southern "states" are almost bankrupt, Greece, Italy, Portugal, and France isn't too well off. On top are all the new "states" that have joined that are poorer still.

You don't need to be an expert to see what has been going on in the EU for 45 years.

The UK is leaving, the Euro is their problem, the UK will look after itself.

 

Please don't send me more graphs.

 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

20 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I think you will find that the promises for a referendum came from individuals who were facing particular problems within their own parties and felt this was a way out. I happen to agree with Thatcher who was opposed to referenda because where do you stop.

its noticeable that those who are shouting the loudest on this issue when asked whether the final negotiated deal should be put to the British people via a referendum respond with a deafening silence.  In fact you will find many who are even opposed to Parliament being given a vote on the final deal and feel that the matter should be left to the government and even supported the use of the Royal prerogative a bit like the accusations thrown at the Undemocratic EU where everything is decided by the unelected executive. 

Do you really think that anyone is going to read what is in the Lisbon treaty and then vote on its merits? I have argued with people who while accusing the EU of being undemocratic weren't even aware that we elect MEPs. 

You just don't read very well. I have explained my view on referendums.

It matters not why or by whom by the promises of an EU-UK referendum were made, we never got one, until Cameron. (I don't like him, but for once a politician kept his word!)

As to the final word: Parliament will have the opportunity to vote on the final deal as promised by TM I am sure. The whole point is, if there are restrictions on how we can negotiate or have to do so from a weak position, then the WTO option will prevail thanks to an unrealistic opposition demanding a "soft leave" and not ensuring the rights of UK subjects living in EU states.

We will see in the next two days how the vote ends.

Edited March 12, 2017 by George FmplesdaCosteedback

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

20 hours ago, pitrevie said:

Sorry I must have missed that prediction, who predicted a total financial collapse could you provide a link to that. I saw many predicting that things would be difficult and that the pound should come under pressure and drop which it has. Even the Chancellor has said that Brexit has blown a 122 billion pound hole in the public finances but unlike Osborne has decided he is in no hurry to balance the public finances. Farage even told us that if we thought 2016 was bad then 2017 was going to be a whole lot worse however I don't recall the B of E, Treasury, IMF etc ever predicting a "total financial collapse" so perhaps you could provide a link to that. 

If you think I an going to quote chapter and verse of "Project Fear" you are mistaken, just look at the quotes for yourself from George Osborne, the BoE and the rest.

If you can show me the quote where the chancellor said "Brexit has blown a £122Bn hole in the UK finances" please post it.

The voting will be over by Tuesday. The implementation of Article 50 shortly after.

Lets see what happens. I am betting on the UK to win the forthcoming battle.

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 3/11/2017 at 0:29 AM, Grouse said:

Yes indeed!

 

Alan Sugar knows which side his bread is buttered on. Have you read his biography? Good read.

 

BTW, remoaners is becoming passé; please use something more derogatory! Maybe the intellectuals?

I just went through a load of posts on this thread and I have to say I thought you had got a sense of humour at last, but it seems not???

Were you really serious? Intellectuals?

Do you qualify?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I just went through a load of posts on this thread and I have to say I thought you had got a sense of humour at last, but it seems not???

Were you really serious? Intellectuals?

Do you qualify?

Have you had a bad day?

 

I was joking of course

 

Yes, I do qualify

[pitrevie]

4 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

You just don't read very well. I have explained my view on referendums.

It matters not why or by whom by the promises of an EU-UK referendum were made, we never got one, until Cameron. (I don't like him, but for once a politician kept his word!)

As to the final word: Parliament will have the opportunity to vote on the final deal as promised by TM I am sure. The whole point is, if there are restrictions on how we can negotiate or have to do so from a weak position, then the WTO option will prevail thanks to an unrealistic opposition demanding a "soft leave" and not ensuring the rights of UK subjects living in EU states.

We will see in the next two days how the vote ends.

For someone who accuses me of not reading very well you don't seem to make a very good job of it either. If it was so important to have a referendum on the EU when the treaty was being amended via Lisbon or Maastricht then why is that not the case now? What we are about to see is the biggest change ever in the way we deal with the single biggest richest market on the planet. This dwarfs the changes proposed in the Lisbon or Maastricht treaties by several orders of magnitude and for some reason this requires no referendum. Now lets be clear we are leaving the EU that is quite clear the British people were asked whether they wanted out and they voted accordingly that was the simple question that was answered. However what hasn't been put to the British people is what they think of the deal that finally emerges. After all during the referendum most of the principal spokesman said that leaving the EU did not meaning leaving the single market that has now blown up in their faces. So again I am asking you and those who give the thumbs up to your posts, come clean, do you believe that the British people should be given a referendum on the final deal especially given the fuss so many of you made when the Rome Treaty was amended by Lisbon and Maastricht.

Just to correct your first point we did get a referendum in 1975 two years after joining the EEC and that resulted in over 2:1  majority in favour of remaining so Cameron's referendum was the second time.

[SheungWan]

Spectre of Brexit no deal for the UK auto industry:

http://tinyurl.com/hsgopkd

 

[Khun Han]

10 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 0:18 AM, pitrevie said:

Sorry I must have missed that prediction, who predicted a total financial collapse could you provide a link to that. I saw many predicting that things would be difficult and that the pound should come under pressure and drop which it has. Even the Chancellor has said that Brexit has blown a 122 billion pound hole in the public finances but unlike Osborne has decided he is in no hurry to balance the public finances. Farage even told us that if we thought 2016 was bad then 2017 was going to be a whole lot worse however I don't recall the B of E, Treasury, IMF etc ever predicting a "total financial collapse" so perhaps you could provide a link to that. 

If you think I an going to quote chapter and verse of "Project Fear" you are mistaken, just look at the quotes for yourself from George Osborne, the BoE and the rest.

If you can show me the quote where the chancellor said "Brexit has blown a £122Bn hole in the UK finances" please post it.

The voting will be over by Tuesday. The implementation of Article 50 shortly after.

Lets see what happens. I am betting on the UK to win the forthcoming battle.

 

Posted again for the benefit of those who appear to suffer from goldfish memory syndrome:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3823949/We-got-WRONG-Brexit-Bank-England-admits-pessimistic-amid-signs-economy-entered-sweet-spot.html

[pitrevie]

15 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Posted again for the benefit of those who appear to suffer from goldfish memory syndrome:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/05/chief-economist-of-bank-of-england-admits-errors

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3823949/We-got-WRONG-Brexit-Bank-England-admits-pessimistic-amid-signs-economy-entered-sweet-spot.html

Could you point me to the part that "predicted a total financial collapse ". I don't think even Osborne at his most extreme ever said that if we voted Brexit there would be a "a total financial collapse " 

[SheungWan]

Has Sterling gone up today at the thought of losing Scotland?

[Grouse]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181

 

So there will be another Scottish independence referendum. TM brought it upon herself; she has only tried to appease Con Party grandees and ignored Scotland and NI. I back her on this!

 

Great timing!!!

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/second-scottish-independence-live-referendum-nicola-sturgeon-brexit-speech-second-indy-ref-2-uk-eu-a7626746.html

 

Time for a Grouse or two ?

Edited March 13, 2017 by Grouse

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Has Sterling gone up today at the thought of losing Scotland?

Funny man . One explanation of sterling's recent swoon is the uncertainty engendered by the call for a second referendum. The bounce an anticipation by the markets that either it would be refused or never happen.

 

 

[JAG]

Have you had a bad day?
 
I was joking of course
 
Yes, I do qualify

Hmm...

One of the best definitions of intellectual I have heard is:
"An intellectual is someone who can listen to Rossini's William Tell Overture without thinking of The Lone Ranger."

[SheungWan]

12 minutes ago, JAG said:

Hmm...

One of the best definitions of intellectual I have heard is:
"An intellectual is someone who can listen to Rossini's William Tell Overture without thinking of The Lone Ranger."

A not really very funny quote from Billy Connolly, Tonto.

Edited March 13, 2017 by SheungWan