The Geriatric Paradigm Of The Thai Immigration Law

[papakapbaan]

BTW I wanted to pursue the converstion with Maestro on a topic an "Old Ruin" (SIC) just closed minutes ago.................

//Edited by Maestro. Papakapban, please continue this discussion in the other topic you started, the one where I replied to you. And try to be concise and specific, without ranting. And consider yourself formally warned for calling a moderator names for closing some of your multiple topics on the same subject.

[sbk]

Seems you fail to understand the concept of the one year extension based on support of a Thai national:

40,000 baht a month income is the main financial requirement and can be drawn from both spouses incomes. Once you obtain the one year extension you do not need to leave the country for another visa unless you let your extension expire without renewal.

I am assuming that 40,000 baht a month qualifies for financial self-sufficiency?

[papakapbaan]

SBK:

Kindly: please read details of my story and do not assume anything.

Just imagne for one moment that really some people are IN FRONT OF A WALL since 01/10/2006:

Here is the story of my life (here):

I am 36.

I am married to a Thai woman I did not see for 6 years.

I am living in Thailand with the mother of my daughter for 6 years. My daughter is 2.5 years old.

I can show/prove income from abroad of the level of 40 K/m, no problem.

But there is no way I can have my wife's cooperation for my yearly extensions of stay.

As a "mere" father of a Thai citizen: I am NO-THING for the Thai immigration law since 01/10/2006.

Because I did not reach the age of 50.

[JacknDanny]

SBK:

Kindly: please read details of my story and do not assume anything.

Just imagne for one moment that really some people are IN FRONT OF A WALL since 01/10/2006:

Here is the story of my life (here):

I am 36.

I am married to a Thai woman I did not see for 6 years.

I am living in Thailand with the mother of my daughter for 6 years. My daughter is 2.5 years old.

I can show/prove income from abroad of the level of 40 K/m, no problem.

But there is no way I can have my wife's cooperation for my yearly extensions of stay.

As a "mere" father of a Thai citizen: I am NO-THING for the Thai immigration law since 01/10/2006.

Because I did not reach the age of 50.

You are right.

I am in a similar situation. Father of 5 yr old who lives with me. His mother and I seperated 3.5 yrs ago, we were never married. I have sole custody of my son granted by Thai court.

Thai embassy at Singapore says that you have to have marriage certificate in order to have 1 yr multi visa. My options are either I leave every 3 months to renew my O VISA ( thats ok, gives me a break) or get extension at the end of 3 months.

I see where OP is coming from, as unless you are 50 or married, then you are not recognised by Immigration, father or not

[papakapbaan]

Ok, Maestro,

Sorry for calling Astral "names" (not exactly since I used his very own self-decription (as I understood it?)

Ok. I am indeed infuriated.

I have much respect for older people, BTW.

Of course and really.

You asked me to be concise:

There is just something VERY wrong on the surface of the earth when a father is not allowed to stay with his daughter because he is deemed....... TOO YOUNG (at 36!) to be recognized as a father!

Was it short enough and to the point?

I explained aboved:

I am 36.

I am married to a Thai woman I did not see for 6 years.

I am living in Thailand with the mother of my daughter for 6 years. My daughter is 2.5 years old.

I can show/prove income from abroad of the level of 40 K/m, no problem.

But there is no way I can have my wife's cooperation for my yearly extensions of stay.

I FORGOT TO ADD:

I am unable to divorce for the foreseeable future and unable to bring my daughter to Belgium to live with me for more than 3 MONTHS (That would be on tourist/sponsor visa)

BTW. Now I am leaving the discusison and going out with my daughter.

She is screaming "Papa Ab Nam!" (It's time indeed!)

[wpcoe]

I am unable to divorce for the foreseeable future and unable to bring my daughter to Belgium to live with me for more than 3 MONTHS (That would be on tourist/sponsor visa)

Granted this may not be your preferred solution, but is there no provision in Belgian (EU?) immigrations laws to grant a daughter a status that would permit her to live with her father? Or, is it a case where the mother's consent is needed, and she would withhold it?

[edited because I clicked on the wrong button and posted too soon]: I mis-read the fact that you are married and the mother of your child is not your wife. I can now see your predicament.

Without trying to pry, I'm curious why you cannot divorce your current wife? I respect your privacy, but that part seems to be key.

Edited December 17, 2006 by wpcoe

[papakapbaan]

wpcoe: Yes, it is indeed a case where the mother's consent is needed, and she would withhold it.

Without wife's approval of the recognition = no recognition.

Without recognition = no Belgian passport.

Without Belgian passport = 3 MONTHS MAXIMUM ON A THAI PASSPORT (on Tourist/Support Visa).

---

Reading the above, some might say Belgium is no better than Thailand when it comes to separating families.

But it is actually a private matter (the refusal of my wife to recognize the child) that would prevent me from finding a solution.

NOT AN "OUT OF THIS WORLD" LAW (One must be above 50 years old to be recognized as a father in Thailand!!!)

[papakapbaan]

I realize that the contents of the topic vanished.

(Kindly. Please MODS. Don't say my topics are self-serving diatribe! This issue should be of interest to anybody with his heart in the right place)

In essence:

=========

Since 01/10/2006:

50 YEARS OLD is not only a criteria to qualify as a RETIREE.

It is a criteria to qualify as a FATHER/MOTHER as well.

A lot of folks on Thaivisa.com regularly complain along the lines: I have funds to support myself, gnagnagna, I should get an easy 1 year visa with no questions asked... Instead, they make me run to the border every 30 days!

Well, now they'll have to arrange quarterly visa runs to various nearby embassies for single entry tourist visas + extensions. Or mix 30 day "VOA" stays + tourist visas, whatever, nothing comfortable in sight if below 50.

NOW! What do you say of a father of 36 with the funds to support himself (property + interests on bank deposits/stocks) not being able to look after his daughter because he has not reached the magical age of 50!? (yes, it's me)

If interested:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97178

I am faced with the sureal situation that being under 50 years old THE DESK OF THE THAI IMMIGRATION SYSTEM HAS "NO DRAWER" FOR ME!

[jumnien]

"NOW! What do you say of a father of 36 with the funds to support himself (property + interests on bank deposits/stocks) not being able to look after his daughter because he has not reached the magical age of 50!? (yes, it's me)"

I say use some of your funds (property plus interest) to enjoy an occasional trip to Penang to pick up a 2 or 3 month visa. It would be lovely to take your daughter and her mother along as well. Be happy you have 14 more years until you are 50, some of us would love to be in your position!

[papakapbaan]

I say use some of your funds (property plus interest) to enjoy an occasional trip to Penang to pick up a 2 or 3 month visa. It would be lovely to take your daughter and her mother along as well. Be happy you have 14 more years until you are 50, some of us would love to be in your position!

Yes. It's a point of view. Please consider:

The mother is working, the child going to school,...

In practice, I am separated from them for a couple of days every 3 months.

Bottom line: I'll be forced to do quarterly visa runs (not just border runs) BEGGING FOR A NEW VISA IN VARIOUS REGIONAL CONSULATES.

Possibly: waiting for a "THIS IS THE LAST TIME" stamp on my visa.

Or words to this effect.

AS REPORTED HERE ON TV FOR TOURIST VISAS ONLY - SO FAR. WAIT AND SEE.

I personally believe they *ARE* totally capable of using the same stamps on Farangs "members of the Thai National family". (as they put it)

[zdorje]

I say use some of your funds (property plus interest) to enjoy an occasional trip to Penang to pick up a 2 or 3 month visa. It would be lovely to take your daughter and her mother along as well. Be happy you have 14 more years until you are 50, some of us would love to be in your position!

Yes. It's a point of view. Please consider:

The mother is working, the child going to school,...

In practice, I am separated from them for a couple of days every 3 months.

Bottom line: I'll be forced to do quarterly visa runs (not just border runs) BEGGING FOR A NEW VISA IN VARIOUS REGIONAL CONSULATES.

Possibly: waiting for a "THIS IS THE LAST TIME" stamp on my visa.

Or words to this effect.

AS REPORTED HERE ON TV FOR TOURIST VISAS ONLY - SO FAR. WAIT AND SEE.

I personally believe they *ARE* totally capable of using the same stamps on Farangs "members of the Thai National family". (as they put it)

There have been several mentions made to the provision for a farang father "living with child"

over fifty getting Visa extensions with no income or bankbook proofs needed - like this one from Lopburi3 "Over 50 with Thai child (you listed as father on birth certificate) you can use special provision to stay with child (this is not support) and no income/bank deposit is required. Sunbelt has processed several people this way but have not seen anyone report doing it themselves or outside of Bangkok. This is probably your best choice." Where, when and how is this done?

[jumnien]

Ah, the power of positive thinking!

Try a few positive affirmations every morning (I will get to stay in the Thailand I love, I will get to stay in the Thailand I love) and double up on the positive affirmations on those short vacations abroad. "Papa mai kap baan" is not likely to occur...

[papakapbaan]

OK, mdeland.

I accept I am being negative.

As a father of a Thai national, I do not actually really forecast the day they will kick me out (But who know??...)

The mere fact that, according to the LETTER OF THE LAW, I AM NOT ALLOWED TO STAY PERMANENTLY in Thailand even though I can prove income from abroad - is enough to infuriate me!

I'll try your mantras!!! ;-0

[jumnien]

Good luck! And remember, if the mantras don't work, you have every right to call me up from Penang and say, "mdeland, you little azzwhole!"

[sbk]

Seems to me you are projecting-- assuming what has not yet happened will happen.

Please bear in mind Maestro's warning, this discussion is already being carried on in another thread and does not need to be repeated over and over again.

[Maestro]

The new rules in effect since October 1, 2006 have probably had the strongest negative impact on unmarried and widowed fathers and on fathers The new rules in effect since October 1, 2006 have probably had the strongest negative impact on unmarried and widowed fathers and on fathers who lost track of their wives, if they are below the age of 50. Their possibility for an annual extension of stay for support of one’s Thai child has been eliminated with the stroke of a pen without an alternative route to an annual extension of stay, although those who had this type of extension before are being “grandfathered”.

On the other hand, is it so unreasonable for the government to expect a man below the age of 50 living in Thailand and supporting his child to be working and paying taxes, even if he is rich enough not to have to work for the rest of his life? After all, the education and other benefits the child gets are paid out of the collective income from taxes.

I see two sides to the story but can’t say which side weighs more heavily.

Come to think of it, if a man is that rich, having the best interest of his child in mind would the child not be better off being brought up in his home country, which probably could provide a better education.

--

Maestro

who lost track of their wives, who are all men below the age of 50. Their possibility for an annual extension of stay for support of one’s Thai child has been eliminated with the stroke of a pen without an alternative route to an annual extension of stay, although those who had this type of extension before are being “grandfathered”.

On the other hand, is it so unreasonable for the government to expect a man below the age of 50 living in Thailand and supporting his child to be working and paying taxes, even if he is rich enough not to have to work for the rest of his life? After all, the education and other benefits the child gets are paid out of the collective income from taxes.

I see two sides to the story but can’t say which side weighs more heavily.

Come to think of it, if a man is that rich, having the best interest of his child in mind would the child not be better off being brought up in his home country, which probably could provide a better education.

--

Maestro

[Maestro]

this discussion is already being carried on in another thread

That other thread, I see, has in the meantime been closed because it started off with a vague hearsay story that in all probability is wrong and misleading, and then the thread veered off topic to the abolishment of the extension for support of Thai child for new applicants below the age of 50.

--

Maestro

[papakapbaan]

maestro:

1) After all, the education and other benefits the child gets are paid out of the collective income from taxes.

Sorry!! HAHAHA!!

Sorry, meastro, are you living on the same planet? This is Thailand.

Not a Welfare State.

Any idea how much I have to pay for my daughter's school fees (KINDERGARDEN)??

Uniforms, shoes, blazons and all the rest BTW.

It adds up to above 15,000 Baht per term (for *KINDERGARDEN*) (1 term = about 3.5 months)

JFYI. Well. It's not impressive maybe. But NEVER EVER would they dare to ask this sort of amounts in the West.

Do I need to develop, really???

And anyway! I would actually be happy to be SOMEHOW recognized and to SOMEHOW pay my share of taxes.

I don't clearly see how this taxation would work but.... ONE THING IS FOR SURE: THE FIRST STEP WOULD BE TO RECOGNIZE ME AS A FATHER - AT LEAST TO ALLOW ME TO STAY HERE ON YEARLY EXTENSIONS.

Surely, running to the borders (and now to various Thai embassies around the world) every 3 months is not the way to start!

2) Come to think of it, if a man is that rich, having the best interest of his child in mind would the child not be better off being brought up in his home country, which probably could provide a better education.

Please, maestro, READ THE DETAILS OF MY STORY, thanks. Kindly.

(I know my explanations are too lenghty. It IS complicate, however)

Or please refrain from posting "generalisations" like the above that are truly hurtful, meastro.

At this point, I would probably LEAVE THIS COUNTRY IN A FLASH IF ONLY I COULD BRING MY DAUGHTER WITH ME TO BELGIUM (TO LIVE THERE PERMANENTLY, of course, not just for 3 months).

(READ THE DETAILS OF MY STORY, thanks)

I would still have to take into consideration the facts her mother is working here and does not stand the slightest chance to get a job in Belgium, and also that her integration into Belgian society is not likely to be a smooth process!

AS SOON AS MY DAUGHTER REACHES THE AGE OF 6, I DON'T BELIEVE INDEED THAT I WOULD STILL HAVE A CHOICE AND THAT I WOULD STILL BE AROUND JEOPARDIZING THE FUTURE OF MY CHILD IN THAILAND.

AND BTW maestro! Why do so many people on TV always have to think of the "financially independant below 50" as "SO RICH"?!

I am not extremely wealthy.

It just happens that I inheritated from an apartment at the age of 20. Then, I worked hard when I was young (and saved money because I had no time to spend it). Then I inherited from a rich aunt.

My savings + inheritage = interests.

+ property rented out = I am just nicely at around 60K/m.

It is my choice at this point in my life to stay in Thailand and to enjoy life with my daughter.

[jumnien]

"It adds up to above 15,000 Baht per term (for *KINDERGARDEN*) (1 term = about 3.5 months)

JFYI. Well. It's not impressive maybe. But NEVER EVER would they dare to ask this sort of amounts in the West."

Wow, I didn't know welfare states in the West gave out free clothes for Kindergarten students! Where's this?

[Maestro]

Papakapbaan, you may call me old-fashioned and I grant that this is what I probably am, but in your situation as you describe it I consider it irresponsible for you to have sired an illegitimate child in Thailand and then blame the Thai government for not being as generous towards unwed foreign fathers as some Western countries appear to be.

At any rate, for over two years you had the opportunity to start annual extensions for support of your Thai child and you did not take it, for whatever reason. It was your choice not to change your status to that of resident (i.e. live in Thailand on annual extensions), but to retain the status of the father visiting his child in Thailand (i.e. visit Thailand on non-O and other visas). Shouldn’t you direct the major part of your anger at yourself?

--

Maestro

[papakapbaan]

Seems to me you are projecting-- assuming what has not yet happened will happen.

Please bear in mind Maestro's warning, this discussion is already being carried on in another thread and does not need to be repeated over and over again.

sbk:

No, it is NOT correct. I do not forecast problemas that did not happen yet.

Things CLEARLY CHANGED FOR US THE "BELOW 50" since 01/10/2006!

==================================================

They actually changed SO MUCH that EVEN PARENTS (OF THAI CHILDREN) BELOW 50 are NOW being:

1) REFUSED ANY YEARLY EXTENSION OF STAY BASED ON CHILD SUPPORT.

The "Child Support" provision simply vanished from the Thai Immigration rules and was replaced by the funny concept of "To Live with Child" ONLY IF ABOVE 50!!!

(No financial means required BTW)

2) REFUSED NON-IMMIGRANT O MULTI ENTRY AT NEIGBOURING THAI EMBASSIES

Both 1 and 2 (YEARLY EXTENSION OF STAY and NON-IMMIGRANT O MULTI ENTRY) USED TO BE THE NORM BEFORE 01/10/2006.

(1 required child custody. A bit complex and involved legal proceedings - but feasible)

You see: kindly: can you NOT say that nothing happened and that am I making things up!

[papakapbaan]

I would like to summarize my points again.

(MODS: THIS IS NO SPAM. Sorry but you deleted the subtance of my post! As of now: it can not be found anywhere on the board!)

1) I am indeed lookig for ways to allow PERMANENT "DE FACTO" STAYS WITHOUT YEARLY EXTENSIONS. And I am doing so with legitimate reasons -- by the standards of anybody with his hearth in the right place.

If interested, please review:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97178

2) I WOULD LIKE AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE TO NOTE THE INCREDIBLE USE OF THE "ABOVE 50 YEARS OLD" CRITERIA FOR EXTENSION OF STAY FOR PARENTS OF THAI CHILDREN!

THERE IS NO MORE CHILD SUPPORT provision in the Thai Immigration Law SINCE 01/10/2006

If BELOW 50: As a Farang father/mother of a Thai Child: you are NO-THING.

===================================================

Meanwhile: if you are ABOVE 50: you can LIVE with your child.

==========================================

It has been suggested the Thai authorities consider it's actually the CHILD who supports the parent above 50. (@@)

So they allow a father above 50 to live in Thailand with his child(ren) regardless of his financial means.

(YES)

In the same time they deny the same basic right to another father (with financial means!!) simply because he happens to be "younger than 50 years old"??

Personally, I say it's OK to check for financial means - even with arbitrary new levels/goalposts every couple of years (some would argue).

But what is the logic behind the 50 years old rule here???

--------------------------------------------------

INDEED. It only makes sense from the point of view that grown up children support aged parents.

(Sorry: what a crap! @@)

They should realize that a lot of Louk Krungs need their Farang father - old or young, married or not to their Thai mother!

(Louk Krungs need their Farang mother too, of course)

Individual situations can mean Thailand is the obvious -or sometimes only- choice for a place to stay for the family!

[papakapbaan]

Papakapbaan, you may call me old-fashioned and I grant that this is what I probably am, but in your situation as you describe it I consider it irresponsible for you to have sired an illegitimate child in Thailand and then blame the Thai government for not being as generous towards unwed foreign fathers as some Western countries appear to be.

At any rate, for over two years you had the opportunity to start annual extensions for support of your Thai child and you did not take it, for whatever reason. It was your choice not to change your status to that of resident (i.e. live in Thailand on annual extensions), but to retain the status of the father visiting his child in Thailand (i.e. visit Thailand on non-O and other visas). Shouldn't you direct the major part of your anger at yourself?

--

Maestro

Absolutely right meastro :-( :-( :-(

Why I do not sleep at night since I heard about the new rules. (Or at least why I do not sleep well).

However to my defence:

1) It just happens that in a distant past I had to experience the BYZANTINE THAI ADMINISTRATION (story related to a business me and my wife opened for a few months in Thailand) and this experience was just such an absolute trauma!....

2) FYI. If I wanted to be granted an extension of stay prior to 01/10/2006: I still had to OBTAIN CHILD CUSTODY.

CHILD CUSTODY is not easy to obtain in Thailand for an alien father...

Lengthy and coslty courts appearances.

But it was feasible.

I decided against this option this year. As recently as July/August.

FYI also: in the past, CHILD CUSTODY was NOT REQUIRED. It was a relatively new addition -INFORMAL, UNOFFICIAL BUT VERY REAL- to the set of conditions required for yearly extension of stay based on child support (without marriage).

Now they obviously prefer to get rid of the provision for child support altogether!

[jumnien]

Papakapbaan,

Have you been doing your affirmations?

You might want to check out the EFAA meetings taking place in the unprocessed chicken sandwich meat thread...

[papakapbaan]

"It adds up to above 15,000 Baht per term (for *KINDERGARDEN*) (1 term = about 3.5 months)

JFYI. Well. It's not impressive maybe. But NEVER EVER would they dare to ask this sort of amounts in the West."

Wow, I didn't know welfare states in the West gave out free clothes for Kindergarten students! Where's this?

Yes. OK. We stray a bit here anyway.

I just wanted to say: in the West this sort of expenses is generally not mandatory at Kindergarden level as it is here!

Now, I am not at all complaining because I have to pay expenses for my daughter's education in Thailand!

I just say that it is not any sort of Welfare State here. And that any sort of "benefits" Thais get from their government is not something any Westerner should be envious of!!!

Therefore: the very low level of taxation in this country.

So the whole argument about foreign long term de facto residents abusing the system because they do not pay taxes is rather DUBIOUS, I would say.

It's surely not a system with free and good education for their children that they "abuse"!

[bilky]

After all, the education and other benefits the child gets are paid out of the collective income from taxes.

So taxes are paying the 220k a year for my kid's school?

Please explain.

[tartempion]

"It adds up to above 15,000 Baht per term (for *KINDERGARDEN*) (1 term = about 3.5 months)

JFYI. Well. It's not impressive maybe. But NEVER EVER would they dare to ask this sort of amounts in the West."

Wow, I didn't know welfare states in the West gave out free clothes for Kindergarten students! Where's this?

mdeland,

You do know school is free in most (all?) European countries until 18 do you ?(except clothing and books that is)

Anyway, your comments to the OP are ridiculous: what are these affirmations you asks about ?

It seems to me some people on this board don't havy any sympathy at all for people who are in trouble of some kind.

Shit happens you know. My dog got poisonned a few days ago here in PK3 Udon Thani and people like you will say it was my fault by letting the dog out of our enormous small garden and the people who dropped poison should get a medal for heroic behavior.

Papakapbaan I symphatise with you and hope you will find a way to stay close to your daugther.

[papakapbaan]

pschef:

BTW Thanks for your PM and .doc attachment about "Human Rights in Thailand".

(Seems all a bit too "virtual" however... But another story)

So you think the "Live with Child" for "above 50" is some sort of 11th hour ;-) nice provision from the Immigration desk???

I personally believe it happened like this:

1) THEY HAD NO WAY TO DECENTLY IGNORE FATHER/MOTHER in the 7.17 "Reason of Necessity" (SIC)

7.17: "In case of the foreign national is member of the Thai national's family".

2) So what did they do?? They had to have recourse to the gold old rule............:

It's been useful in the past for retirees, for family members of permanent residents, specialists and other experts.

Some Khun Maitchobyoungfarangatol somewhere got the brilliant idea:

Let's STICK this one here too!

"In case of Father or Mother, the said father or mother shall not be younger than 50 years old."

[kriswillems]

I totally understand your frustration papakapbaan. I think the new law is unreasonable. It will brake up many young couples who can't meet the 40K/month requirement and it will make life very hard for young fathers with a Thai child.

I would try to contact the mother of the child again and ask her for a permission to go Belgium (on tourist visa). A bit of money might help.

If the child is with a tourist visa in Belgium I would not return anymore to Thailand.

Belgian government is not going to put your child on an airplane back to Thailand even if she's staying illegally in Belgium.

In Belgium you can go to Belgian court try to get full custody.

The mother will probably not protest, because she never looked after the child.

If the mother refuses permission for a tourist visa I would go to court and try to get full custody of the child in Thailand. After that you could take your child to Belgium based on family reunion.

If you fail to get full custody, I would go to live in a place where it's easy to re-enter, maybe close to the airport or the border. You would need to go to a foreign embassy every 3 months, so you'll have to find somebody that can take care of your child about 2 weeks per year.

You didn't do anything wrong and I really don't understand the lack of sympathy of some people on this forum.

[kriswillems]

Please ignore my last reply. I misunderstood your situation. You're actually living with the mother of your child. I though your ex was the mother.