"Legionella" found in hotels right across Phuket, Pangnga and Krabi

[paulbj2]

1 hour ago, moe666 said:

If the water supply is located on the surface: rivers, streams, lakes, pond and any other standing source you will have this infection. Most people who contact this diease usually have mild flu like symptons. Do not worry about it in the shower head as the spray is not fine enough to get into the lungs. The water droplets have to be small enough to infiltrate the bodies defenses but if they are too small they cannot carry the bacteria. The only way the split a/c units can be a problem is if the drain pan becomes stopped up and water ponds in the pan then some way this water has to become a mist  fine enough to infect the body. 

 

The problem with treatment is that it is a bacteria that acts like a virus. Keep your immune system up and you probably have little to fear

Interesting! When Legionella was detected in the hot water system of the building where I worked, the only action the management took to protect us all until treatment could be arranged to eliminate the bacterium from the pipework, was to lock and forbid the use of the showers that were available to us as they said, there was a risk of someone showering, inhaling enough bacteria to contract Legionnaires Disease.

 

They also sent round a statement saying that there was no danger at all in drinking the water as this particular pathogen cannot cause disease by being ingested in that way.

[paulbj2]

42 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

Once I got past your bombastic opening words I enjoyed your post. You seem like a very intelligent person when you calm down. Like most intelligent people you are bombastic when opening your comments is it a superiority complex or something?. You must understand you share the world with us less intelligent people who never the less dislike people talking down to us in a rude manner. I am sure your intelligent enough to understand the gist of my comments. Thanks again for the enlightening post. 

I don't know what is bombastic about calling-out a stupid and, dare I say it, bombastic comment by the original poster who seemed to wish to imply that Thailand was the only place in the world that had this issue, that the rest of the world should be informed of Thailand's failure to act and that Thailand's failure to act was because of untrammelled greed! 

 

I would agree that Thailand is not perfect but then nor are any of the other countries where I have lived, nor indeed is my homeland, the UK. Quite why people on this forum feel the need to indulge in so much "Thai bashing" I don't quite understand and I don't react particularly well to it! 

 

I have been made very welcome here and I am very grateful for that. Tell me, who goes to visit someone else's house and makes comments like "what a sh1thole this is, innit!" That's what "Thai bashers" are doing, in effect, they are invited guests in this country and they never stop complaining about the place and about their hosts, the Thais. 

 

If you want to lay claim to being "unintelligent" that's your problem but I'm sure you are not incapable of simply using Google to check facts, nor, I am sure is the original poster. 

[elgordo38]

23 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

I don't know what is bombastic about calling-out a stupid and, dare I say it, bombastic comment by the original poster who seemed to wish to imply that Thailand was the only place in the world that had this issue, that the rest of the world should be informed of Thailand's failure to act and that Thailand's failure to act was because of untrammelled greed! 

 

I would agree that Thailand is not perfect but then nor are any of the other countries where I have lived, nor indeed is my homeland, the UK. Quite why people on this forum feel the need to indulge in so much "Thai bashing" I don't quite understand and I don't react particularly well to it! 

 

I have been made very welcome here and I am very grateful for that. Tell me, who goes to visit someone else's house and makes comments like "what a sh1thole this is, innit!" That's what "Thai bashers" are doing, in effect, they are invited guests in this country and they never stop complaining about the place and about their hosts, the Thais. 

 

If you want to lay claim to being "unintelligent" that's your problem but I'm sure you are not incapable of simply using Google to check facts, nor, I am sure is the original poster. 

See you have already reached step 1 you have unburdened yourself so much and gotten so much off your chest your progress is truly amazing. Nobody said your unintelligent you just seem to pull the trigger on so many derogatory words like stupid etc. as I explained we were not all born equal. Don't belittle your brethren comfort him. Just tone it down a bit do not be mad at me and the world we love you. A good rant does us all good. Look forward to your comments on TV with interest. 

[paulbj2]

14 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

See you have already reached step 1 you have unburdened yourself so much and gotten so much off your chest your progress is truly amazing. Nobody said your unintelligent you just seem to pull the trigger on so many derogatory words like stupid etc. as I explained we were not all born equal. Don't belittle your brethren comfort him. Just tone it down a bit do not be mad at me and the world we love you. A good rant does us all good. Look forward to your comments on TV with interest. 

Perhaps you should direct your comments at the poster to whom I replied rather than at me?

[lungnorm]

I contracted Klebsiella Pneumonia on one of my trips to Thailand. It is actually a worse strain than Legionella. Somehow I survived as there is over 90% mortality rate. I am pretty sure I got it from the aircon in an old but nice hotel in Surin as when I turned the aircon on I could smell the mouldy air so I left it on high and opened the window and went to the bar for an hour. Only takes one breath. Was hospitalised for 3 weeks had the triple drip direct into my heart.

[elgordo38]

1 minute ago, paulbj2 said:

Perhaps you should direct your comments at the poster to whom I replied rather than at me?

Sorry about that glad you brought it to my attention. I really do strive for perfection.

[elgordo38]

4 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

Perhaps you should direct your comments at the poster to whom I replied rather than at me?

Sorry I must retract this looking back I think I got it right. 

[Khon Kaen Dave]

I have read the posts of what appear to be experts in Legionella. And i respect their opinions.

I remember back in the Uk years ago that some elderly people died from the problem in a hotel or somewhere.The problem was found to be in the cooling towers and the temperature changes allowing the bacteria to assert itself.

Please correct me if i am wrong, but i thought that the bacteria was only harmful when ingested through the nose as in shower mist.It becomes a respirational  problem.

I would welcome replies from qualified people please, as want to know more about this subject

 Thank you.

[paulbj2]

2 hours ago, AlQaholic said:

Just as you can find e-coli anywhere you look in nature, legionella can also be found anywhere. Just not in any significant concentrations to cause harm. The Myth-busters showed this very nicely when they placed toothbrushes around in a bathroom for a few days and every brush had e-coli samples, even the one they didn't open from the factory packaging.

Yes, it's one of those facts of which it is better not to be aware that every time a WC is flushed, it produces a "mist" of water droplets that contain a small amounts of the contents of the pan including urine and faecal matter, if present. Nice eh?

[cruisemonkey]

I read the story and thought -

I just read a non-story. They found legionella in non-hazardous levels and no more frequently than you'd find anywhere else. Where's the story?

[paulbj2]

21 minutes ago, Khon Kaen Dave said:

I have read the posts of what appear to be experts in Legionella. And i respect their opinions.

I remember back in the Uk years ago that some elderly people died from the problem in a hotel or somewhere.The problem was found to be in the cooling towers and the temperature changes allowing the bacteria to assert itself.

Please correct me if i am wrong, but i thought that the bacteria was only harmful when ingested through the nose as in shower mist.It becomes a respirational  problem.

I would welcome replies from qualified people please, as want to know more about this subject

 Thank you.

That is what we were told when they found Legionella in a building in which I worked before retirement. No danger at all from drinking the water but they closed the showers as they considered showering in the affected water to be potentially hazardous.

[owenm]

44 minutes ago, lungnorm said:

I contracted Klebsiella Pneumonia on one of my trips to Thailand. It is actually a worse strain than Legionella. Somehow I survived as there is over 90% mortality rate. I am pretty sure I got it from the aircon in an old but nice hotel in Surin as when I turned the aircon on I could smell the mouldy air so I left it on high and opened the window and went to the bar for an hour. Only takes one breath. Was hospitalised for 3 weeks had the triple drip direct into my heart.

Almost 3 years ago I also contracted Legionnaires Disease and Pneumonia from a so called boutique hotel off Sukhumvit in Bangkok. The aircond was extremely stuffy and blowing dust. There is usually a 10 day incubation period before symptoms appear. Back in Melbourne I was in ICU for a week, and 3 months off work. I was on oxygen, drips, had an erratic heart beat and was later told I was extremely lucky to survive as there is an extremely high mortality rate. Mould and fungi spores become airborne particularly if the filters and system isn't cleaned on a frequent basis. Now, everywhere where I stay, as I frequent a lot of nearby Asian countries, I always open the aircon front panel and check the filters. If they aren't clean, I wash them thoroughly with the shower head or bum gun. Using a room fan is a far safer option than an aircon that maybe suspect. It certainly makes you realise that we are all mortal, and death can be around the corner. 

[wvavin]

23 hours ago, paulbj2 said:

Over the top completely! A really, REALLY stupid comment! Ridiculous "Thai bashing" nonsense!

 

Until I retired I used to work in a government owned building in Luxembourg City. Legionnella tests were carried out regularly on the water supplies and air-conditioning units in that building and the detailed results were provided to everyone who worked there. Those tests almost invariably came back positive for Legionella despite the best efforts of the building maintenance team to eliminate the damned bacterium using chlorine gas to disinfect the water systems and God knows how many other disinfectant chemicals. Legionella is not easy to eliminate, permanently.

 

This bacterium is a big problem throughout the world; it is present in the hot water systems of most hotels, offices and domestic dwellings. Do you ever get the hot water or air-conditioning systems where you live checked for Legionella? 100:1 odds on, you'll find it in the shower heads and in the water system.

 

The thing that worries me more in Thailand is the use of the "misting" systems that are often installed outside bars and restaurants. The supply pipework is usually in direct sunlight so the water inside the pipes, when it is turned off, will attain the ideal temperature range for the development of thriving colonies of Legionella. Then when the system is turned on, it will likely eject an aerosol of concentrated Legionella bacteria all over anyone in the vicinity; that should be a matter of real concern to health officials!

 

We know this very well but Thais said "mai pen rai".

[Nurseynutcase]

I feel i must reply to this topic as my husband died from legionaires disease.

 

Following his death water samples from the shower in our house, taps and from the waterfall in the pond were all tested for legionaires but came back negative.  At the time as he was the only person to have been diagnosed that week no further action/investigations in the places where he had been were carried out, still do not know where he got it from

 

Good to Owenm for surviving this dreadful condition - you are only the second person i have heard of who survived this terrible disease I hope you have no residual problems from this.

 

Some years ago - I think it was in Scotland two people were admitted to hospital suffering from Legionaires disease - i cannot remember if they survived.  However the cause was not water droplets but handling infected compos

[Nurseynutcase]

sorry forgot the T in compost.

[moe666]

3 hours ago, paulbj2 said:

Interesting! When Legionella was detected in the hot water system of the building where I worked, the only action the management took to protect us all until treatment could be arranged to eliminate the bacterium from the pipework, was to lock and forbid the use of the showers that were available to us as they said, there was a risk of someone showering, inhaling enough bacteria to contract Legionnaires Disease.

 

They also sent round a statement saying that there was no danger at all in drinking the water as this particular pathogen cannot cause disease by being ingested in that way.

Taking a shower would have been fine the water particles are too big. The bacteria is carried by water in a mist thats why cooling towers can be a problem the water particles blown  from the tower have to be the correct size to small and they will not transport to big and they cannot get pass the bodies defenses into the lungs. They have found the bacteria up to five miles from the source. The bacteria in the pipes were delivered in the water supply from the river, lake or pond the water was drawn from. The problem was in the initial treatment of the water from the source.

 I happen to have been an industrial water treatment engineer, we maintained cooling towers, closed loop heating and cooling systems, as well as boilers.

[ukrules]

On 07/04/2017 at 4:04 PM, paulbj2 said:

Do you ever get the hot water or air-conditioning systems where you live checked for Legionella? 100:1 odds on, you'll find it in the shower heads and in the water system.

 

Is there a way that I can do this ? I would like to have my water system tested for any kind of issues.

 

I have an underground tank.

 

 

[paulbj2]

One of the problems that can readily affect everyone who travels is that the precise strains of bacteria found in one part of the world are not necessarily the same as the ones found in ones homeland. 

 

For example, bacteria commonly found in and around kitchens and restaurants, ones that we ingest every day in our homeland without coming to any harm at all, can have evolved just sufficient differences on the far side of the world to act upon our digestive tract as pathogens. This is, apparently, what causes many cases of travellers diarrhoea. Bacteria are omnipresent; it's only the ones that our immune systems are not used to coping with, or are not capable of dealing with, that cause us problems.

 

Following a visit to Thailand in 2014, the local health authorities in the country where I was living contacted me to say that there had been a case of "open" (infectious) tuberculosis on the flight from Bangkok to Paris , the passenger had collapsed at Paris CdG airport and was diagnosed as a result. They asked me to attend a screening clinic to see if I had been infected. Thankfully, after three rather scary months and a lot of blood tests and X-rays, the health authorities announced that I had not been infected. I must have inhaled a fair few bacteria as the infected passenger was sitting only a couple of metres from me and coughing her lungs up for pretty much the entire 13 hour flight. It seems, nevertheless, that my immune system fended them all off. One of my brothers spent his whole career as a hospital doctor and he said at the time that during his career, he had been in contact with dozens, if not hundreds of cases of open TB and had never caught it.

 

 

[JohanB]

9 hours ago, bartender100 said:

120 deaths world wide from death by legionella in the last 17 years

 

80 everyday on the roads in Thailand

Where did you get your numbers from? Link please!

 

According to the following link below, the death rate from legionella is 4000+, only in the USA

 

https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/legionnaires/disease_rec.html

 

"

• In the United States, Legionnaires' disease is fairly common and serious. LDB are one of the top three causes of non-epidemic, community-acquired pneumonia.
   
• It is estimated that over 25,000 cases of the illness occur each year and cause more than 4,000 deaths."

 

Must be in the 100 thousend's worldwide!

 

 

 

 

[Jonmarleesco]

On 4/7/2017 at 1:45 PM, webfact said:

'... the concentrations they found were not sufficient to affect people ... tourists had got infected while holidaying in Thailand.'

Well, either they are, or they are not.

[gemguy]

On ‎2017‎-‎04‎-‎07 at 4:04 PM, paulbj2 said:

Over the top completely! A really, REALLY stupid comment! Ridiculous "Thai bashing" nonsense!

 

Until I retired I used to work in a government owned building in Luxembourg City. Legionnella tests were carried out regularly on the water supplies and air-conditioning units in that building and the detailed results were provided to everyone who worked there. Those tests almost invariably came back positive for Legionella despite the best efforts of the building maintenance team to eliminate the damned bacterium using chlorine gas to disinfect the water systems and God knows how many other disinfectant chemicals. Legionella is not easy to eliminate, permanently.

 

This bacterium is a big problem throughout the world; it is present in the hot water systems of most hotels, offices and domestic dwellings. Do you ever get the hot water or air-conditioning systems where you live checked for Legionella? 100:1 odds on, you'll find it in the shower heads and in the water system.

 

The thing that worries me more in Thailand is the use of the "misting" systems that are often installed outside bars and restaurants. The supply pipework is usually in direct sunlight so the water inside the pipes, when it is turned off, will attain the ideal temperature range for the development of thriving colonies of Legionella. Then when the system is turned on, it will likely eject an aerosol of concentrated Legionella bacteria all over anyone in the vicinity; that should be a matter of real concern to health officials!

Whether you know this or not or whether you believe it or not that particular type of bacteria can be eliminated by way of Colloidal Silver and proven so.

Very few people know about this means to kill bacteria but it works where other means to control or kill bacteria does not work.

But, it is not Government approved so you will seldom see it applied while it is safe and far safer than the usual means used to kill bacteria

Just for your information.

Cheers

[paulbj2]

1 hour ago, gemguy said:

Whether you know this or not or whether you believe it or not that particular type of bacteria can be eliminated by way of Colloidal Silver and proven so.

Very few people know about this means to kill bacteria but it works where other means to control or kill bacteria does not work.

But, it is not Government approved so you will seldom see it applied while it is safe and far safer than the usual means used to kill bacteria

Just for your information.

Cheers

Yes, I learned recently that many/most bacteria will die when exposed to copper and so, by extension, brass and bronze. The old brass and bronze doorhandles actually killed bacteria whereas the modern stainless steel or plastic ones (as used in almost all hospitals these days), don't!

[gemguy]

31 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

Yes, I learned recently that many/most bacteria will die when exposed to copper and so, by extension, brass and bronze. The old brass and bronze doorhandles actually killed bacteria whereas the modern stainless steel or plastic ones (as used in almost all hospitals these days), don't!

There is plenty of info out there about the bacterial killing abilities of metallic substances while Silver is the most noted having the ability to kill nearly all strains of Bacteria ( types of pathogens )

You can make a "silver particle solution" by way of simple Electrolyse and that resultant silver solution is effective at killing bacteria and fungus and viruses.

It is harmless and certainly any side effects are minimal and far less problematic than antibiotics and other chemical concoctions used to try and kill pathogens.

I have used colloidal silver many times successfully for a variety  of ailments.

If they were to use colloidal silver for eliminating the Legionella bacteria the problem would be resolved

Cheers

 

[Udo Zickler]

Why they have no experiance for sanitary work? Because no education in sanitary work. 1 times a week heat up the water to more than 70 °C, everything is ok. It is so easy to handle that. Why they need farang to explain?

Gesendet von meinem SM-J710F mit Tapatalk

[stevenl]

Why they have no experiance for sanitary work? Because no education in sanitary work. 1 times a week heat up the water to more than 70 °C, everything is ok. It is so easy to handle that. Why they need farang to explain?

Gesendet von meinem SM-J710F mit Tapatalk

You mean like in Germany, where there are regular outbreaks of legionella despite much lower temperatures.

sent using Tapatalk

[paulbj2]

I just looked the statistics produced by the EU on Legionella infections. Apart from such infections being widespread throughout Europe and the rest of the world (their stats include figures for USA, Canada and Australia) and causing 1000s of deaths every year (moreover, the bacterium responsible for a fatal infection will not always be identified, so under-reporting is highly likely), it is interesting to note that, for a reason that I am having difficulty rationalizing, men are disproportionately more likely to acquire Legionella infections and to die of them, than are women.

 

The risk modification factors you might expect also apply. You are more likely to acquire a serious, potentially fatal, Legionella infection if your a smoker, if you have a pre-existing respiratory condition like COPD, if you are elderly, if you are a heavy drinker, if you have Diabetes, if your immune system is compromised in any way (either by illness or by medication) and so on.

[paulbj2]

On 08/04/2017 at 11:45 AM, elgordo38 said:

I am amazed they spent the  money to do the testing usually they usually wait till the fhit hits the san before doing anything and then try and smother the bad news so as to not frighten the cattle sorry tourists. Its like everything else in the world today a bad news good news presentation. As a friend of mine stated with a heart problem. The doctor said that he had 72% heart blockage and they like to operate at 70%. The good news is that we can put you on medication that will make you better. The bad news was it did make him feel lethargic. The good news was he quit the medication and felt fine. The bad news was he failed to tell his doctor who surely would have had a heart attach had he known. The next visit to the doctor the good news was the doctor asked him how do you feel he said fine. The doctor said well I guess we don't have to operate. The moral of the story is take all doc speak with a grain of salt but to much salt is dangerous to your health. 

Hmmmm...I think maybe your friend should think again. If the arteries that supply the heart are really blocked to that extent (that's what it sounds like you are saying) then he is a walking medical time-bomb; he could drop dead at any moment. More to the point, a patients chances of surviving a coronary artery graft and of making a full recovery are excellent if they are in good health when the surgery is undertaken. If on the other hand, they have already survived a heart attack when they go for surgery the chances of surviving it and having a good outcome are significantly reduced.

 

My brother had exactly the same sorts of issues and spent years dithering about whether to go for the surgery for it or not. In the end, when he started getting Angina attacks (or rather when his doctor told him that it was Angina he was experiencing), he decided he would go for it. He did make it OK but the risks of the surgery were enhanced due to his advancing age and deteriorating condition. 

[elgordo38]

26 minutes ago, paulbj2 said:

Hmmmm...I think maybe your friend should think again. If the arteries that supply the heart are really blocked to that extent (that's what it sounds like you are saying) then he is a walking medical time-bomb; he could drop dead at any moment. More to the point, a patients chances of surviving a coronary artery graft and of making a full recovery are excellent if they are in good health when the surgery is undertaken. If on the other hand, they have already survived a heart attack when they go for surgery the chances of surviving it and having a good outcome are significantly reduced.

 

My brother had exactly the same sorts of issues and spent years dithering about whether to go for the surgery for it or not. In the end, when he started getting Angina attacks (or rather when his doctor told him that it was Angina he was experiencing), he decided he would go for it. He did make it OK but the risks of the surgery were enhanced due to his advancing age and deteriorating condition. 

A good read. I tried to Google the doctors name but could not find it but I rather base my life on his thinking. He stated that if you reach 75 and have a catastrophic illness accept it and move on. I am a few years past that still in good health by my standards anyways (nobody else's counts) I am sure if I went to a local named hospital and took advantage of the 6000 baht checkup they would find at least 3 thinks for this old mind to worry about and for this old body to try and repair. Of course they give these cheap checkups for a reason a life partner/customer/client. They put you on a monthly treatment plan much like car payments. In my younger years I used to drive old junkers and the fixing just never seemed to stop. 

[paulbj2]

5 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

A good read. I tried to Google the doctors name but could not find it but I rather base my life on his thinking. He stated that if you reach 75 and have a catastrophic illness accept it and move on. I am a few years past that still in good health by my standards anyways (nobody else's counts) I am sure if I went to a local named hospital and took advantage of the 6000 baht checkup they would find at least 3 thinks for this old mind to worry about and for this old body to try and repair. Of course they give these cheap checkups for a reason a life partner/customer/client. They put you on a monthly treatment plan much like car payments. In my younger years I used to drive old junkers and the fixing just never seemed to stop. 

Well my brother is resident in the UK and over there, they don't do surgery for profit; quite the reverse, they already have more patients than they can cope with. If they decided he needed a coronary artery bypass, it's because he would likely have died sooner rather than later without it.

 

My own doctor in Luxembourg asked me a few years back if I realised, given my lifestyle (heavy smoker, heavy drinker, sedentary profession, overweight, diabetic, appalling family history of cardio-vascular disease, very bad cholesterol levels) how great was my chance of dying of a heart attack or stroke in the following five years. It turned out that it was 1 in 5. I replied that as I didn't have much of a pension, I didn't have much to look forward to so that would suit me just fine. She replied "Ah, yes, I can understand that but the first heart attack or stroke is frequently not fatal; so do you fancy becoming a wheelchair bound cardiac cripple or being partially paralysed for what remains of your life?" I decided I didn't! Since then I have completely changed my lifestyle, given up smoking, don't drink that much, I have lost a lot of weight and I take a lot more exercise; honestly, I wish I done it sooner, I haven't felt this good since I was in my 30s.

 

Way back when I was still in my early 50s, I read an article by a learned professor of medicine who suggested that people in their 50s at that time would mostly live to be well over 100 as the advances in medical science and in anti-ageing research were progressing so fast. I don't see much evidence of that right now. 

 

I seem to be rambling off the point a bit here - now that really is a sign of advancing age!    

[sensei]

Care to share list of establishments tested positive?