Somtam slowly killing many Thais, cancer center says

[bubba]

This is complete pseudoscience.

 

First of all, Dr. Suthat shows no independent, causal relationship of liver flukes from pla ra being responsible for the overall increase in cancer rates. Does all pla ra carry liver flukes? Does all som tum have played ra? Is pal ra the only source of liver fluke infection? Is liver fluke induced bile duct cancer the only thing causing the cancer rate increase? You don't suppose that an overall increase in environmental carcinogens might be contributing to increasing cancer, do you? Maybe even those colourful little red dried shrimp in som tum? Maybe they are using stale peanuts with aflatoxin, which causes liver cancer? No, it's som tom pla ra. 

 

Then he goes on to discuss cervical cancer, seemingly as a continuation of his discussion regarding som tom causing increased cancer rates. So is he inferring that there is genitally transmitted HPV virus in som tum as well? {Ouch). If anything, HPV infection rates are on the decline with the widespread availability of HPV vaccine. 

 

And this Dr. Suthat was the lead speaker at a cancer symposium? That is just embarrassing. 

Edited May 5, 2017 by bubba

[DavisH]

37 minutes ago, clockman said:

Small amount compared with road deaths. Which seems not to concern anybody?

What's more important to Thais....not being able to eat Thai food or wearing a helmet? 55

Edited May 5, 2017 by DavisH

[lgking]

"Chilli peppers were the most commonly used spice among the sample, and those who ate fresh chilli had a lower risk of death from cancer, coronary heart disease, and diabetes."

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34411492 

 

"Chilli May Help Fight Prostate Cancer"

https://www.liverdoctor.com/chilli-may-help-fight-prostate-cancer/

[KIWIBATCH]

 

He's not the same doctor who was promoting playing soccer if one was feeling an urge to have sex ...is he?

 

Thai girls tell me that eating somtam is one of their ways of losing weight...it has a laxative effect...

[zyphodb]

I heard about the correlation between Pla ra & Liver cancer years ago, apparently the liver flukes you get from the Pla ra over the years cause lesions on your liver which, by the time you get to 40 or so become cancerous. I remember reading that Isaan had the highest rates of Liver cancer in the world due to this.

 Khon kaen University hospital had a big publicity campaign around the villages about this trying to get everyone to boil their Pla ra before putting it in their Bok bok but this was mostly ignored as boiling spoilt the taste apparently...

 Given Thais belief in Karma plus their inability to think beyond the next week or two I don't imagine anything is going to change. I've tried to explain this to my wife & family but as usual, what does a Falang know? you can't tell us Thais anything, we know better lol

 

[overherebc]

I have lost count of the :-  x is bad for you followed a year later by x may be good for you followed by the y is good for you followed by the y might be bad for you.

All I can add to the what is bad for you is based on my grandfathers last words.

Jesus! a bus!!

Edited May 5, 2017 by overherebc

[impulse]

57 minutes ago, leeneeds said:

The Nepalese eat mountains of very hot chillies to combat the cold, 

at high altitude, I wonder if a correlation of cancer fatalities has been done,

Japanese also eat mountains of raw fish as do the Russians, 

one would believe  DNA has a lot to do with certain cancers, 

Blaming a fish meal is a bit of a stretch on the truth.

 

There's a huge difference between eating properly selected, professionally prepared sushi and scooping crabs and minnows out of the river and bashing them up guts, feathers and all.  

 

Years ago, I worked for a company with expats assigned to areas in Russia,.  Whenever they came back to the USA for any reason, they were  strongly encouraged to get checked for liver flukes after a couple of them found flukes during routine checkups.

 

Google raw fish and liver flukes to see the multitude of reputable sources that have drawn a direct cause-effect line between them.  Some of the recent articles are discussing the Vietnam vets who, 40 years later are turning up with liver cancer.  So those posters who feel fine after eating som tam aren't necessarily okay.

 

[toolpush]

2 hours ago, jaltsc said:

"While he noted that causes of cancer vary, Thais’ love of “pla ra” or raw fish used in somtam, as well as other undercooked foods are responsible for increased rates of worm infections, which can lead to liver cancer."

 

At best, he is illustrating an association, but not a cause and effect scenario.  Considering all the other unhealthy habits and environmental conditions associated with Thai lifestyle (High sodium and Sugar intake, High consumption of reused oil, use of agricultural sprays which have been banned in western nations, tobacco use, lack of adequate exercise, etc.) I find it unrealistic to blame one isolated micro factor. Perhaps further scientific research might isolate the main causes. However, I doubt many can effectively argue that an immediate reduction in the consumption of of the foods containing the elements mentioned above, better regulation of agricultural products, more exercise, etc. would not benefit many Thais. Sometimes common sense is the first step, especially when there are minimal negative side effects associated with those changes in lifestyle. 

Not true: My father in law died of liver cancer caused by liver flukes. It is very common in Issarn.

Go here: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-33095945

[Rikito]

Knowing that 90% of the papaya grown in Thailand is GMO is certainly not helping

[hakancnx]

It's the Plahra added in some somtams which cause the problem. Chilli is OK. 

Raw fermented fish have parasites which can cause liver problems. And together with Laokao it is more or less lethal....

[ThaiWai]

3 hours ago, Somtamnication said:

My wife giving up somtam? Never!

After reading to many horror stories, I made the move to pla ra free somtum and when the wife is with me she modifies her preference so we can share.  As they say "somtum eat alone, mai aroi".

[fasteddie]

26 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

There's a huge difference between eating properly selected, professionally prepared sushi and scooping crabs and minnows out of the river and bashing them up guts, feathers and all.  

 

Years ago, I worked for a company with expats assigned to areas in Russia,.  Whenever they came back to the USA for any reason, they were  strongly encouraged to get checked for liver flukes after a couple of them found flukes during routine checkups.

 

Google raw fish and liver flukes to see the multitude of reputable sources that have drawn a direct cause-effect line between them.  Some of the recent articles are discussing the Vietnam vets who, 40 years later are turning up with liver cancer.  So those posters who feel fine after eating som tam aren't necessarily okay.

 

I assume the ''feathers'' are from Parrot fish.

[tukkytuktuk]

I thought uncooked meat was why so many Japanese people live so old. Seems like this doctor is just showing off his research to gain notoriety rather than this being of any use to prevent cancer.

[fullcave]

Not to mention the stuff is loaded with MSG (Monosodium glutamate) the locals eat it with literally every meal. Second only to sugar. 

[mamypoko]

My solution - tom Thai. I like to skip the desiccated fish gunk.

[rockyysdt]

3 hours ago, jaltsc said:

"While he noted that causes of cancer vary, Thais’ love of “pla ra” or raw fish used in somtam, as well as other undercooked foods are responsible for increased rates of worm infections, which can lead to liver cancer."

 

At best, he is illustrating an association, but not a cause and effect scenario.  Considering all the other unhealthy habits and environmental conditions associated with Thai lifestyle (High sodium and Sugar intake, High consumption of reused oil, use of agricultural sprays which have been banned in western nations, tobacco use, lack of adequate exercise, etc.) I find it unrealistic to blame one isolated micro factor. Perhaps further scientific research might isolate the main causes. However, I doubt many can effectively argue that an immediate reduction in the consumption of of the foods containing the elements mentioned above, better regulation of agricultural products, more exercise, etc. would not benefit many Thais. Sometimes common sense is the first step, especially when there are minimal negative side effects associated with those changes in lifestyle. 

On a scientific level you are correct.

 

The link is not proven.

 

However, at a personal level, eating raw sea food in Thailand is like playing Russian roulette with your/your families lives.

 

Pla Ra is meant to be fermented for at least 15 - 18 months.

 

Many open the drum after only 6 months.

Not long enough for the fermentation process to kill all fluke parasites found in raw fish.

 

No amount of regulation will prevent villagers from consuming raw fish products.

 

It's already been quoted that "Khonkien is the world capital of liver fluke in humans".

 

http://www.apocpcontrol.org/paper_file/issue_abs/Volume12_No5/1367-1370 c 4.25 Narong Wongba.pdf

 

 

 

Waiting for proof will seal many peoples fate.

 

I witnessed the slow death of a very lovely lady whose liver went west.

Not having any health cover, they dispensed digestives, aspirin and vitamins, which she had to pay for.

Her death was a slow agony.

 

It's a huge thing in Thailand, but being a third world country, no one is investing in any kind of research.

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by rockyysdt

[phantomfiddler]

Here, Dear, Have another bowl !

[dinsdale]

Liver fluke. It has been known about for many years that pra-ra may contain liver fluke which can lead to cancer of the liver.  Knew a university Phd/senior lecturer at the time (many years ago) who was researching the incidence of liver cancer in Thailand and its connection to the consumption of raw fish products. I tell GF/Thais this but well, I'm farang, what would I know. You can get cooked (this kills the fluke) pra-ra now but they say the raw, fermented stuff is better.

[TungnaaTom]

I agree that parasites in the body which come from eating under-cooked food cause cancer, and the HPV virus also causes cancer.  "bubba" was correct to point out that the two have no connection to each other.

 

HPV is the virus that causes genital warts. It is a sexually transmitted disease.  You cannot catch it from sharing food, toilet seats, whatever.  You can only get it from sharing something else
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/infectious-agents/hpv/hpv-and-cancer-info.html

 

HPV should not have been mentioned in an article focusing on parasites acquired by eating under-cooked food.

 

 

[Pinot]

If the sauce is boiled, the threat is eliminated. It's a public education issue. 

[Beats56]

3 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Reminds me of a friend at university back in the day.

 

After a night out we'd all head to a local curry place and order whatever. This guy had a thing about eating the hottest thing on the menu, didn't give a toss what it was so long as it was hot.

 

Mostly he'd get a vindaloo, but one evening after we been a rather long session he was a bit more belligerent than usual and started mouthing off that vindaloos weren't that hot and we were all pussies-or words to that effect. The staff [I'm guessing] took offence at this and told him there was an especially hot curry called a tindaloo, but was too hot for most people.

 

Man, he went off on a big one and started demanding he be given this. The staff eventually agreed and walked away with huge grins on their faces.

 

When the dish finally arrived, I swear it was curry sauce, mystery meat and more chillies than I've ever seen in my life. The thing glowed. You could feel the heat coming off it [well maybe that's just my imagination but that's how it felt]

 

My mate started eating it and immediately began sweating like a dog in heat. He was dripping and his whole face took on a bright red shine. He was clearly in pain but wouldn't admit it and ate the whole thing [well most of it]. Kept on claiming it was ok though.

 

The next day was hell for him and he spent most of the day in the toilet.

 

Funny thing is, he never went to that curry place again. I'd like to say he calmed down a bit on the hotter the better shtick, but he never did.

 

He was a bit of <deleted> if I'm honest though. 

Tell him to try the one chip challenge coated in Carolina reaper pepper. That will rock his world.

[islandguy]

I never eat som tam with fermented crabs or Pla ra. I have convinced my Thai wife to only eat Pla ra when it is cooked. The epidemiological research on the relationship between raw fish, liver flukes, and liver cancer is quite convincing. 

[tonray]

Plain Somtam is fine...it is the Pla Ra and the fermented raw mudcrabs  with liver parasites that cause the cancer. My GF's dad passed away from liver cancer due to parasitic infection. It is somewhat common is ISSAN where traditions dictate that they must have their daily dose of Pla Ra.

 

 

[overherebc]

16 minutes ago, Beats56 said:

Tell him to try the one chip challenge coated in Carolina reaper pepper. That will rock his world.

Got two ghost pepper plants growing at the moments, had eleven seeds, only two made it to plants. Waiting for the first chillies for others to try.

For sure not me, over a million on the hot scale, thai chillies don't come near them.

[thaiguzzi]

24 minutes ago, tonray said:

Plain Somtam is fine...it is the Pla Ra and the fermented raw mudcrabs  with liver parasites that cause the cancer. My GF's dad passed away from liver cancer due to parasitic infection. It is somewhat common is ISSAN where traditions dictate that they must have their daily dose of Pla Ra.

 

 

It is common, but it is getting rarer. Most households these days cook Pla Ra, and many, inc my missus buy it ready to go, pre cooked in a bottle. Not cheap, but she reckons the stuff is high quality and safe.

 I've personally always had the odd som tam dabble. Can't beat it with a handful of sticky rice and a good bit of barbequed chicken...

[Krataiboy]

Thailand is the world hotspot for cancers caused by the liver fluke commonly found in the fish used in som tam. In parts of the North East, infection rates are as high as 71 percent. Cholangiocarcinoma is one of the deadliest and nastiest forms of cancer.

 

Before the missus tucks into her next deadly dish, read her a few of the juicier extracts from this report (it's in English): Cholangiocarcinoma: Lessons from Thailand: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4130346/

[xerostar]

3 hours ago, ChrisY1 said:

I wouldn't think there would be iota of evidence, or, that there is any science at all to back this good doctors statements....with 60,000 people dying annually from cancer of varying forms, to blame somtam, seems a rather off the cuff statement.

Detection methods of determining disease has improved greatly as have treatments......maybe more people are taking advantage of the 30 baht scheme....whatever, there a host of reasons.

For those who don't believe the good doctor here is just one of many articles that will put you off raw fish of any type: Apparently it's a very slow, painful death.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7982745

[billy54]

18 hours ago, ezzra said:

This doctor should really look at the big picture, what kill Thai people

now more than ever is the rich processed westernized food diet

they never partake  back in the old days in the villages and rural life....

Or maybe young Rich people driving fast cars ,

[BBJ]

I love Somtum, spicier the better.  But I don't eat fish.  I like marmite, frazzles, monster munch and wagon wheels too!

[Khunbilly]

3 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

was

The cancer from under cooked fish that he is talking about is cholangiocarcinoma. My father-in-law died from it two years ago. It's common in Isan with Khon Kaen pretty much being the epicenter for it. But it's not limited to warm regions, as it is also common in Siberia. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholangiocarcinoma