Psychological torture of condo living Jomtien

[teddog]

It is hard, yes it is to admit a loss,but a most definate loss to most who bought here in recent past,and those losses increase now far faster than ever before. In the mind's eye its a sellable product to condo owner, until the selling part actually becomes the main feature and then realisation you are totally wiped out financially if a hurried sale is wanted.

 

  Me?Im in a 5 bedroomed detached house furnished , nice part of town at under 20 a month, and that 20 a month will be greatly reduced too when lease is up,..not only condos not selling..     no noise, ..peace, perfect peace  cheap electric, water too, but I need not inform a condo owner of that   

 

No following on of KK  hit a raw nerve ?, or what?

[Peterw42]

In any market, property, shares or bananas, people make money at the expense of someone loosing money. There is the old saying that you make money on anything when you buy it, not when you sell it. 

My wife sells real estate so I get a bit of an armchair view of the winning and loosing, I see fresh of the plane westerners paying 1.5 mil for a condo worth 1 million, I also see shrewd investors offering 800k for the same 1m baht condo, they buy it and rent it out for a 10% net return and look for another one.

I watched an Indian guy make a lazy 100k last week, he bought for 1m baht on a Monday, brought in 2 cambodian girls to paint and clean, then sold for 1.2m baht on the Friday of the following week. (more good luck and timing than anything else)

 

Any investment, property or shares, you make money by buying low and selling high, as simple as that sounds, if it was that simple we would all be billionaires. Shares have an inherent value based on dividends, Price to earning ratio. Property also has an in inherent value based on rental returns. Both enable you to make money as you hold the asset , wait/speculate for a capital gain. If a share has little to no dividend then its worth is purely speculative. If a property has a very low rental return, its value is also speculative.

 

If people did more technical valuation of property there would be less people loosing on property, and based on technical valuation there is some value in some segments of the property market.

 

 

[newnative]

18 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Doing this involves finding someone daft enough to pay 4.25m for a small third world condo in a city that has many hectares of undeveloped land in its centre. In Thailand most prices bandied about are rarely average selling prices as one might expect to hear in the West. It's always "you could get x million for this". Well, yes, and I could have gold-plated testicles. But I dont.

And apparently the purchase price was a discounted off-plan one. That also will be impossible to repeat.

 

The important question is "what is the condo actually worth today"? And to me that means "at what price would it sell within a month if put on the market".  And this is the question that is rarely answered in Thailand. For every person I know who reckons to have made a profit on owning property here I know 5 who reckon to have made a loss in Baht terms, or would make a loss if they sold today. And I include myself in that second group. Maybe I just know the wrong people.

In the time that I have owned it my condo has dropped in value. In the same period my stocks have increased by 30+% in value. And they are entirely liquid and have a specific value that can be determined (and realised, if needed) 24/7, unlike Thai property.

You make some good points, as always.  I wish I could pick stock winners but, as I said in an earlier post, I'm lousy at it.  My GE stock stuck at 20something a share for years and  years when everything else is going through the roof.  Merde.  I think condos here reach a top price and it's hard to get above that price even if your condo is pretty special.  I would guess The Base 1 bedrooms might top out around 4.5MB.  Maybe a little less.  35sqm is still 35sqm.  Could be wrong and always exceptions, of course.  VT5 48sqm studios probably have a top price of around 3.5MB, give or take.  If you bought one today at 3.5, it would be unrealistic to expect to make a sale profit anytime soon, but you could make some money renting it. Or, live in it yourself and save on rent.  On the up side, they are holding their value.  The time to make a little sale money at VT5 was about 5 years ago when you could buy a shell in foreign name for around 2MB, spend 200-300,000 Baht on a renovation, and sell for around 3.3MB.  Not a big profit but not bad for a short period and the condos were easy to sell as there was far less competition then and their location was, and is, great.  Things haven't changed much since the VT5 days; you need to pick well, get in early at a good price, and sell at a fair, not greedy, price at the right time.

[newnative]

13 hours ago, ThaiBob said:

The developer claims he offers a 10% reduction off the list price but actually raises the list prices slightly year after year. The Thai-Chinese owner is clueless in marketing properties as he has no advertising budget, no website, no models, no Facebook, etc. so apparently he just doesn't care. Granted they are challenge to sell because of their price and size (115-257 sqm). About 8-10 of these units have been sold since project completion. 

True story. I went into the View Talay sales office a number of years ago to inquire about buying 2 studio condos to put together into a large 1 bedroom condo.  I had a price list that was maybe 6 months old.  Even though no condos had been sold in months, they told me my price list was no good and they had raised the prices.  I picked up a pencil and said to the sales girl, 'Suppose you're selling pencils at 25 baht each and nobody is buying them.  Would it make any sense to raise the price to 30 baht?'   Blank stare.  You're right--zero marketing skills and the word 'sale' is not in their vocabulary. 

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

I wish I could pick stock winners but, as I said in an earlier post, I'm lousy at it.  My GE stock stuck at 20something a share for years and  years when everything else is going through the roof.  Merde. 

 

I'm no good at it either so with a few (good and bad) exceptions, I limit my investments to index tracker ETFs. This means that I pay low charges/fees and dont have to worry unduly about individual stocks. Occasionally I will buy something that looks very cheap or has suffered what seems to me to be a short-lived setback, or something that seems to have an unusually good future. I also hold some shares that have a long history of paying good dividends.

On top of the capital growth I have seen I have also been getting a regular annual dividend of around 4% entirely tax-free, with no agents' fees or maintenance fees or other replacement/repair costs, and with no effort spent either. So I think this compares quite well with the sort of gross returns often mentioned for real estate rentals here.

 

 

1 hour ago, newnative said:

I think condos here reach a top price and it's hard to get above that price even if your condo is pretty special.  I would guess The Base 1 bedrooms might top out around 4.5MB.  Maybe a little less.  35sqm is still 35sqm.

 

I can see prices going up and up (slowly) in parts of Bangkok where there is no empty space near to mass transport stations. It happens in capital cities all over the world. But for that to happen here they would first need to develop all the empty plots, of which there are many both in Pattaya and in Jomtien and with quite a few giving directly onto the beach or the beach road. I think that may take a long time. Both the Base and Centric Sea currently have large empty plots directly in front of them, and Jomtien seafront looks even emptier.

[newnative]

50 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

I'm no good at it either so with a few (good and bad) exceptions, I limit my investments to index tracker ETFs. This means that I pay low charges/fees and dont have to worry unduly about individual stocks. Occasionally I will buy something that looks very cheap or has suffered what seems to me to be a short-lived setback, or something that seems to have an unusually good future. I also hold some shares that have a long history of paying good dividends.

On top of the capital growth I have seen I have also been getting a regular annual dividend of around 4% entirely tax-free, with no agents' fees or maintenance fees or other replacement/repair costs, and with no effort spent either. So I think this compares quite well with the sort of gross returns often mentioned for real estate rentals here.

 

 

 

I can see prices going up and up (slowly) in parts of Bangkok where there is no empty space near to mass transport stations. It happens in capital cities all over the world. But for that to happen here they would first need to develop all the empty plots, of which there are many both in Pattaya and in Jomtien and with quite a few giving directly onto the beach or the beach road. I think that may take a long time. Both the Base and Centric Sea currently have large empty plots directly in front of them, and Jomtien seafront looks even emptier.

Chang Beer owns the big empty plot of land stretching from 2nd Road to Beach Road.  I believe they also bought through one of their subsidiaries the Imperial Hotel and the Grand Sole Hotel, as well as the empty shops and land by Grand Sole.  It will be interesting to see what they do with it. 

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

I'm no good at it either so with a few (good and bad) exceptions, I limit my investments to index tracker ETFs. This means that I pay low charges/fees and dont have to worry unduly about individual stocks. Occasionally I will buy something that looks very cheap or has suffered what seems to me to be a short-lived setback, or something that seems to have an unusually good future. I also hold some shares that have a long history of paying good dividends.

On top of the capital growth I have seen I have also been getting a regular annual dividend of around 4% entirely tax-free, with no agents' fees or maintenance fees or other replacement/repair costs, and with no effort spent either. So I think this compares quite well with the sort of gross returns often mentioned for real estate rentals here.

 

 

 

I can see prices going up and up (slowly) in parts of Bangkok where there is no empty space near to mass transport stations. It happens in capital cities all over the world. But for that to happen here they would first need to develop all the empty plots, of which there are many both in Pattaya and in Jomtien and with quite a few giving directly onto the beach or the beach road. I think that may take a long time. Both the Base and Centric Sea currently have large empty plots directly in front of them, and Jomtien seafront looks even emptier.

So they will have blocked views sooner or later.

[champers]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

 

I'm no good at it either so with a few (good and bad) exceptions, I limit my investments to index tracker ETFs. This means that I pay low charges/fees and dont have to worry unduly about individual stocks. Occasionally I will buy something that looks very cheap or has suffered what seems to me to be a short-lived setback, or something that seems to have an unusually good future. I also hold some shares that have a long history of paying good dividends.

On top of the capital growth I have seen I have also been getting a regular annual dividend of around 4% entirely tax-free, with no agents' fees or maintenance fees or other replacement/repair costs, and with no effort spent either. So I think this compares quite well with the sort of gross returns often mentioned for real estate rentals here.

 

 

 

I can see prices going up and up (slowly) in parts of Bangkok where there is no empty space near to mass transport stations. It happens in capital cities all over the world. But for that to happen here they would first need to develop all the empty plots, of which there are many both in Pattaya and in Jomtien and with quite a few giving directly onto the beach or the beach road. I think that may take a long time. Both the Base and Centric Sea currently have large empty plots directly in front of them, and Jomtien seafront looks even emptier.

Starting prices at Centric Sea have fallen 400,000 from 2.3 million.

 

[champers]

52 minutes ago, newnative said:

Chang Beer owns the big empty plot of land stretching from 2nd Road to Beach Road.  I believe they also bought through one of their subsidiaries the Imperial Hotel and the Grand Sole Hotel, as well as the empty shops and land by Grand Sole.  It will be interesting to see what they do with it. 

I was told a lot of the land near Grand Sole was owned by Thaksin Shinawatra and Grand Sole will be flattened imminently. More condos look likely, whoever owns the land. Many interesting empty plots in Pattaya: Beach Rd near Soi 10 and 2nd Rd opposite Central Beach Rd spring to mind.

Edited May 18, 2017 by champers
Spellink errur

[bkk6060]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

True story. I went into the View Talay sales office a number of years ago to inquire about buying 2 studio condos to put together into a large 1 bedroom condo.  I had a price list that was maybe 6 months old.  Even though no condos had been sold in months, they told me my price list was no good and they had raised the prices.  I picked up a pencil and said to the sales girl, 'Suppose you're selling pencils at 25 baht each and nobody is buying them.  Would it make any sense to raise the price to 30 baht?'   Blank stare.  You're right--zero marketing skills and the word 'sale' is not in their vocabulary. 

I believe it.  I am no economic expert but some things just seem like common sense.  My experience is and I have heard others say, it is a general Thai mentality when things are going bad here the thinking is to raise prices to make up for the losses, not make some cuts to possibly generate business.  

[bbabythai]

5 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

Doing this involves finding someone daft enough to pay 4.25m for a small third world condo in a city that has many hectares of undeveloped land in its centre. In Thailand most prices bandied about are rarely average selling prices as one might expect to hear in the West. It's always "you could get x million for this". Well, yes, and I could have gold-plated testicles. But I dont.

And apparently the purchase price was a discounted off-plan one. That also will be impossible to repeat.

 

The important question is "what is the condo actually worth today"? And to me that means "at what price would it sell within a month if put on the market".  And this is the question that is rarely answered in Thailand. For every person I know who reckons to have made a profit on owning property here I know 5 who reckon to have made a loss in Baht terms, or would make a loss if they sold today. And I include myself in that second group. Maybe I just know the wrong people.

In the time that I have owned it my condo has dropped in value. In the same period my stocks have increased by 30+% in value. And they are entirely liquid and have a specific value that can be determined (and realised, if needed) 24/7, unlike Thai property.

I agree and relate to your comment in the last few sentences. My stocks have also gone up dramatically in the last few yrs. Stocks have low transaction costs and are highly liquid but are obviously higher risk. If one wants to invest in the property market its better to do it in Sydney or a popular city- although the prices are high and so are the transaction costs (stamp duty).

[bkk6060]

The shameful thing is record keeping.  I would have thought one of the farang RE brokers would have started some type of multiple listing service.  Also, records of units sold, time on market, prices, etc. you know normal stuff.  But in talking with a few it is almost like them or someone, is trying to hide something.  Also from my experience if a broker here has a listing, or even a rental, it is theirs.  No one else can view it or get information.  I may be wrong maybe I have just run into liars.

 

But, this lack of transparency really hurts this place in my opinion. You are talking about a substantial amount of cash invested in something.   What, who, where, when do you and can you believe anything about real estate here??

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

True story. I went into the View Talay sales office a number of years ago to inquire about buying 2 studio condos to put together into a large 1 bedroom condo.  I had a price list that was maybe 6 months old.  Even though no condos had been sold in months, they told me my price list was no good and they had raised the prices.  I picked up a pencil and said to the sales girl, 'Suppose you're selling pencils at 25 baht each and nobody is buying them.  Would it make any sense to raise the price to 30 baht?'   Blank stare.  You're right--zero marketing skills and the word 'sale' is not in their vocabulary. 

Expecting the sales girl to understand economic theory was surely unfair. IMO they are pretty faces employed to make male buyers think with their little head.

As any businessman knows, getting the potential customer through the door is the first step to a sale.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/18/2017 at 2:48 PM, bbabythai said:

I agree and relate to your comment in the last few sentences. My stocks have also gone up dramatically in the last few yrs. Stocks have low transaction costs and are highly liquid but are obviously higher risk. If one wants to invest in the property market its better to do it in Sydney or a popular city- although the prices are high and so are the transaction costs (stamp duty).

 

I keep hoping that investors will see the light and all the new places being built will have to be rented. If that were to happen, 300 a night would be on the high side.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

I believe it.  I am no economic expert but some things just seem like common sense.  My experience is and I have heard others say, it is a general Thai mentality when things are going bad here the thinking is to raise prices to make up for the losses, not make some cuts to possibly generate business.

 

Yes, fairly common practice in many Thai businesses. But it's a technique that relies on cartel mentality and protectionism which Thailand abounds in. All your competitors would also have to put their prices up in the same way.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

The shameful thing is record keeping.  I would have thought one of the farang RE brokers would have started some type of multiple listing service.  Also, records of units sold, time on market, prices, etc. you know normal stuff.  But in talking with a few it is almost like them or someone, is trying to hide something.  Also from my experience if a broker here has a listing, or even a rental, it is theirs.  No one else can view it or get information.  I may be wrong maybe I have just run into liars.

 

But, this lack of transparency really hurts this place in my opinion. You are talking about a substantial amount of cash invested in something.   What, who, where, when do you and can you believe anything about real estate here??

 

Everything to do with property in Thailand is lies, smoke and mirrors. There is no transparency, ever.

[smutcakes]

Its amazing reading this thread that Thai's dont know anything about business, marketing etc etc And this is coming from men who have been convinced to buy shoe boxes for a couple of million baht off these stupid Thais with no marketing skills.

 

I know who i would call the dim ones in this equation.

[bkk6060]

23 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

Its amazing reading this thread that these stupid Thai's dont know anything about business, marketing etc etc And this is coming from men who have been convinced to buy shoe boxes for a couple of million baht off these stupid Thais with no marketing skills.

 

I know who i would call the dim ones in this equation.

No issue with you probably right in most instances especially new.

I may be wrong but it seems to me most of the real estate (resale) market here is advertised and sold by Falang, not Thai.

 

Something else about this place I can understand the temptation to buy.  Especially if you came from a very expensive RE country.  Granted it is not the same environment but to buy a shack in Laguna Bach California or Newport Beach within walking distance of the beach is at least 1 million US.  I have seen many of them.  So, to come here and get a new or fairly new place for 1/10th of that within walking distance or even with an ocean view, could be very tempting for some.

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by bkk6060

[newnative]

2 hours ago, champers said:

Starting prices at Centric Sea have fallen 400,000 from 2.3 million.

 

Foreign quota is gone.

[bkk6060]

3 minutes ago, newnative said:

Foreign quota is gone.

Sorry for the stupid question but does that quota remain for the life of the project?  In other words can they say no to a foreigner if he wants to buy a resale let's say from a Thai?

[champers]

5 minutes ago, newnative said:

Foreign quota is gone.

Aah. Dual pricing.

[Peterw42]

14 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Sorry for the stupid question but does that quota remain for the life of the project?  In other words can they say no to a foreigner if he wants to buy a resale let's say from a Thai?

Yes, its always 49% foreign ownership, if a foreigner sells to a Thai then that would make one foreign title available. if the 49% is full then a foreigner cannot buy , only via a company ownership.

[bkk6060]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, its always 49% foreign ownership, if a foreigner sells to a Thai then that would make one foreign title available. if the 49% is full then a foreigner cannot buy , only via a company ownership.

OK, thank you so much good to know.  So, if I buy in that situation just put everything in my Thai GF name....

 

HAHA, just joking I am not smart but am also not totally stuppie.  :)

Edited May 18, 2017 by bkk6060

[ThaiBob]

10 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Sorry for the stupid question but does that quota remain for the life of the project?  In other words can they say no to a foreigner if he wants to buy a resale let's say from a Thai?

A foreigner can sell to another foreigner if even if the foreign quota has been reached. If  the foreigner attempts to buy from a Thai, he must create a Thai company or some other means which all have their own pitfalls. The foreign quota cannot exceed 49%.  There was an exception to the rule in 1999, the quota was increased to75% for a five year period in Bangkok and Pattaya  because of the Asian economic downturn. In some projects, resale prices for foreigners can be 10-20%higher. 

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, ThaiBob said:

A foreigner can sell to another foreigner if even if the foreign quota has been reached. If  the foreigner attempts to buy from a Thai, he must create a Thai company or some other means which all have their own pitfalls. The foreign quota cannot exceed 49%.  There was an exception to the rule in 1999, the quota was increased to75% for a five year period in Bangkok and Pattaya  because of the Asian economic downturn. In some projects, resale prices for foreigners can be 10-20%higher. 

OK I had not idea about his.  That Thai company legal fraud must be created by an attorney I assume? 

[KittenKong]

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Its amazing reading this thread that these stupid Thai's dont know anything about business, marketing etc etc And this is coming from men who have been convinced to buy shoe boxes for a couple of million baht off these stupid Thais with no marketing skills.

 

I buy cheese and wine at ridiculously high prices here. Not because the vendor is smart and I'm stupid but because I want the wine and cheese.

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by KittenKong

[shanesox]

 

I buy cheese and wine at ridiculously high prices here. Not because the vendor is smart and I'm stupid but because I want the wine and cheese.

 

Many imported food/drink products I want,but When I see the "ridiculous high prices" taxes ,I say "screw them" and buy a case full of the stuff once a year when go back homeland!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Destiny1990]

11 hours ago, newnative said:

You make some good points, as always.  I wish I could pick stock winners but, as I said in an earlier post, I'm lousy at it.  My GE stock stuck at 20something a share for years and  years when everything else is going through the roof.  Merde.  I think condos here reach a top price and it's hard to get above that price even if your condo is pretty special.  I would guess The Base 1 bedrooms might top out around 4.5MB.  Maybe a little less.  35sqm is still 35sqm.  Could be wrong and always exceptions, of course.  VT5 48sqm studios probably have a top price of around 3.5MB, give or take.  If you bought one today at 3.5, it would be unrealistic to expect to make a sale profit anytime soon, but you could make some money renting it. Or, live in it yourself and save on rent.  On the up side, they are holding their value.  The time to make a little sale money at VT5 was about 5 years ago when you could buy a shell in foreign name for around 2MB, spend 200-300,000 Baht on a renovation, and sell for around 3.3MB.  Not a big profit but not bad for a short period and the condos were easy to sell as there was far less competition then and their location was, and is, great.  Things haven't changed much since the VT5 days; you need to pick well, get in early at a good price, and sell at a fair, not greedy, price at the right time.

So what will be your next off plan seaview condo to invest in?Perhaps some others here including myself will consider it also.How about we combine a order for multiple units so for once its end buyers squeezing out a developer.

[pegman]

13 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, its always 49% foreign ownership, if a foreigner sells to a Thai then that would make one foreign title available. if the 49% is full then a foreigner cannot buy , only via a company ownership.

How would it be determined which Thai unit could then be declared Foreign?

[Peterw42]

16 minutes ago, pegman said:

How would it be determined which Thai unit could then be declared Foreign?

The next condo sold to a foreigner. If a foreigner wanted to buy a thai unit, the first thing you would do is ask the condo office if any of the allocation is available.