SURVEY: Should teacher's credentials be examined carefully?

[sanukjim]

1 hour ago, car720 said:

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Do they really expect any person with real qualifications to give up a career that is reasonably well remunerated and has ongoing training to come here and work for what they want to pay and under the conditions that they want to provide?  At the same time suffering the petty jealousies which are thrown at them constantly by their Thai colleagues.

All this without even contemplating the risk of taking a short walk off a long balcony every day that they are here.

OK But don't forget that 90% of all these so called International Schools" are just money machine for the school owners and have very little to do with teaching.Real Qualified teachers are working in the truly credited schools and drawing great pay.

[smotherb]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

"Yes, even if it results in fewer foreign teachers being allowed to teach." - quite frankly this "even if" totally invalidates the poll. don't TV know how to set a poll question  or was it deliberately loaded??

 

 

The truth is that there needs to be a MUCH more thorough  vetting process for teachers.

 

Firstly a REASONED set of criteria - not just a load of old tosh dreamed up on the spur of the moment.

 

The more red tape, the less effective any process becomes.

 

Quite frankly i'm shocked both by the amount of fraud by teachers - or rather those posing as teachers - and and their employers; the utterly banal approach of immigration and Dept labour to deal with the problem is a joke.

Fraud is rampant only because it is easy to get away with.

 

Whether a degree is necessary to teach conversational English is one issue....but if a country decides it is needed, the least they can do is enforce it.

 

It is SO EASY to spot a fake degree yet the authorities simply don't bother. 

 

Then unnecessary red tape is thrown up - inconsistently, depending on the whim of individuals and each immigration office so that ineptitude and corruption become the norm and hundreds of unsuitable characters become teachers.

 

They also need to review who can start up a language school - the ridiculous restrictions on employing foreigners etc means that private language schools are run on th edge of the law by shonki companies that know nothing about education.

if foreigners were allowed to employ teachers more freely the whole situation would be revolutionised and as in other countries schools would be started by those who actually know about education and in particular ESL.

if Thailand adopted a simple rational appraoch to recruiting teachers the numbers would actually rise and so would thwqualitiy - so long as they bumble through a sea ofunnecessary and only partially enforced regulations they will be unable to recruit good teachers in any number for any length of time.

 

 

It is not so easy to spot a fake degree.  There are many sites online to get degree in any discipline from any school—there are also non-accredited schools which will offer a degree in any discipline for money and a simple short paper; there are degree mills which will offer any degree just for money; both can have legitimate sounding school names. That is why the potential employee’s transcript of grades is requested to be sent directly from the school to the potential employer. However, that too can be circumvented because the degree mills or unaccredited schools will provide transcript services for an extra fee.

 

It is also a bad idea to give foreigners a free-hand in hiring teachers. There are far too many low-life foreigners here now; that would simply give them another scam to make money. The Thai department of education needs to set a higher bar and enforce it with logical determination, research, verification, and common sense—oh well, that may very well cancel-out that plan too.  

[janpharma]

By the way...what if they would check the crudentials of the Thai teachers?...This might be a catastrophy...

[Orton Rd]

Yes, they should also have a criminal records check, far too many either have Micky Mouse qualifications, or are perverts intent on child abuse,

Edited June 4, 2017 by Orton Rd

[maewang99]

the teaching certificates are..... 100%.... all ot them..... genuine.

 

what the civil service ajarn need is credentials to show parents who come in to complain about.... something.

THEREFORE the paperwork and background stuff for ****getting**** a certificate is done and kept by the Ed. Dept..... so who cares if it is genuine or not? the paperwork the parents will see is the certificate issued by the Ed Dept. and those are "de facto" genuine. 100%.

duh.....

AND the certificates are issued in Bangkok.  am I right?

in Bangkok.

except the folks involved might not be in Bangkok, eh?

 

well..... blah blah blah blah blah...








 

 

     

Edited June 4, 2017 by maewang99

[smotherb]

16 minutes ago, Rhys said:

Well, the school and specifically the HR have the responsibility to ensure the teacher is qualified.   By the sound of that teacher and his boss, it was not so.   There was a comment about the Ph.D  and all the alphabet behind their names, that is great for research, but sadly at times, those Ph.Ds. lack the in-class skills and desire to teach ...they can't be bothered with it as they are doing research.... and then again there are some for are just excellent.   Additionally, the English volunteer as a teacher would be great for conversational practice but would lack the specific knowledge on teaching approaches.   It is a mixed situation and totally dependent on your situation,  some Thai English teachers are quite good and excellent and then again some are not, some non-native English teachers are good and some are not...      This is why the teaching demonstration is important.

There are few, if any, foreign teachers holding doctorates teaching English in Thailand. A doctorate is required for teaching in almost all graduate programs. Teachers with graduate degrees can and do teach in universities, but they usually teach other disciplines and not English. Their salaries and benefits are quite different too. I know two university teachers in one of the better schools in Bangkok--one with a doctorate in finance and the other with a masters in business; the PhD teaches graduate corporate finance and makes B140k/mo plus housing, office, research funding and seminar stipends; the MBA teaches international business and makes B90k/mo plus housing. 

[smotherb]

9 minutes ago, janpharma said:

By the way...what if they would check the crudentials of the Thai teachers?...This might be a catastrophy...

Not sure what "crudentials" are, but I would bet most Thai teachers have a degree from a Thai university which would invariably make it easier for the Thais to check. 

[JAG]

The requirements are already in place.

A degree is required. A certificate (TEFL or other) issued by an institution accredited or recognised by the Ministry of Education, and a Police check from the home country. That requirement needs to be properly enforced.

 

As to competence, a probationary period would go a long way to weeding out those who whilst theoretically qualified cannot teach ( mine was the first semester).

 

This would go a long way to rooting out the "fakes,"the unqualified and the "dodgy".

 

Unfortunately too often school managements duck and weave around. and under these requirements. The kickbacks, particularly when dealing with agencies are too attractive.

 

I agree that the salary question is a red herring. I could earn significantly more TEFLing in one of the many language schools in my home town in the UK, but I prefer to live here with my wife and daughter.

 

So in my opinion, enforce the existing regulations, and make it good practice to have a probationary period.

 

Tongue in cheek I might suggest only hiring those over 50 with a wife and family here, and a record of reasonable success in a previous career?

 

 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

Not enough options in the Poll IMO: 

 

In some areas any (NES) English Teacher is better than no English Teacher at all, in these area's Children being exposed to a native teacher is better than no exposure whatsoever, even if those English Teachers are not qualified to the levels many of us would like.

 

We can apply a little bit of realism in our expectations. Fully qualified English Teachers are not going to work for the paltry sums offered in many of the remote and perhaps more under privileged areas. 

 

That said: Anyone working with Children should be exposed to Background checks. So, I do believe checks should be more stringent, but I also believe that the rules could be more flexible in allowing 'unqualified' teachers to teach in those areas where there may be no alternative.

 

And, after all that, I also believe it is important that teachers are properly qualified wherever possible. 

I would not want my Son educated by a 'non-professional'... lots of teachers may think they are good, the issue here is that those who are uneducated 'don't know what they don't know'. 

 

I have an excellent degree, however, I would never assume to be able to Teach English, or the Subject of my Degree and Career of 20 years... I would still need to be taught how to teach. 

 

I know of some guys here who's English is barely passable, I can't understand some of their comments on Facebook !!... however, I believe they can be of 'some' value to schools whose children may not otherwise have any exposure to a Native English Speaker.

 

In short - Checks are important, but so is being realistic and even more so is exposing those who may otherwise miss out to English.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by richard_smith237

[maewang99]

how about another survey.

should airlines that issue their own pilot's licenses so they can hire low wage pilots be required to review the pilots background before they fly passengers?

 

in airplanes.

 

in the sky.

yes or no?


 

 

 




 

Edited June 4, 2017 by maewang99

[Srikcir]

Do you believe teacher's credentials should be more carefully vetted?

No mention of "foreigners," yet the two choices specify "foreigners."

Therefore, all answers are invalid. They are answers to a question not asked.

But maybe there's a lesson to be learned in this survey. It is as valid as the current Thai educational system.

 

[richard_smith237]

Just now, maewang99 said:

how about another survey.

should airlines that issue their own pilot's licenses so they can hire low wage pilots be required to review the pilots background before issuing a pilots license for their own pilots?

 

 

Pilots licenses are issued by the Country, not the Airline. The Civil Aviation Authority issues licenses per Aircraft model. This is quite different from teaching - the attempted analogy is quite flawed. 

[Bluespunk]

No one without a proper teaching certificate and previous experience of teaching in their mother tongue should take a job overseas.

 

They will not be effective as they could be without the expertise both these things bring. 

 

That's going to cost schools though...

[maewang99]

7 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Pilots licenses are issued by the Country, not the Airline. The Civil Aviation Authority issues licenses per Aircraft model. This is quite different from teaching - the attempted analogy is quite flawed. 

 

the teachers council is Thai.

 

so are the schools.  they are not independent.  
 

 


  

Edited June 4, 2017 by maewang99

[Goldbear]

They can set up whatever standards they deem appropriate. 

 

[maewang99]

in the public schools..... contract teachers lighten the schedule of the civil service ajarn. 
 

I have seen this many times.

it's not disinterested at all.

 

    





 

Edited June 4, 2017 by maewang99

[maewang99]

3 minutes ago, Goldbear said:

They can set up whatever standards they deem appropriate. 

 

and we can have a survey.

 

[davidst01]

3 hours ago, car720 said:

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

Do they really expect any person with real qualifications to give up a career that is reasonably well remunerated and has ongoing training to come here and work for what they want to pay and under the conditions that they want to provide?  At the same time suffering the petty jealousies which are thrown at them constantly by their Thai colleagues.

All this without even contemplating the risk of taking a short walk off a long balcony every day that they are here.

You dont know thailand very well. The real teachers do move here and get paid huge money to work in the International schools. Its the other farang who marry a thai and have a baby, for example, that end up in the 30k a month jobs. 

[maewang99]

not only is it okay for us to comment on the Thai process....

I gave 5 very hard years of effort to try to be a great teacher... in Thailand.... in Thai public schools and a Thai university..... like many...  

the students were happy and learned stuff. more than that...3 years of evening school at UCLA for my TEFL... and only intended to teach in Thailand. so a lot of work..... and genuinely intended.  THAT's the problem.

and I'm quite sure of my students and the results I got.  but it was very difficult work and long hours... but more than that.

 

I think it is quite alright... in a survey like this especially... or not..... to point out that the Thai teachers union is (1) not totally disinterested and (2) is headquartered in Bangkok, I think I can and should point it out. I've seen how this is done.  

 

I saw a Detroit teacher leave my last high school in tears.  the Thai staff had bambozzeled her very badly. she was a very good teacher. the real McCoy. 

she was a gift from heaven for that school.  for the students.  

but English speaking dudes with no background at all.. the ajarn were okay with that... and have very nice work schedules as a result... like every Friday off, stuff like that?  those dudes were not teachers... not even college grads of any kind..... AND it was obvious.... AND they were at the school for..... what? well I know..... and reasons very different from the Real McCoy teacher from Detroit... and myself. and? they got Official Thai government teaching certificates using fake degrees they bought in Bangkok.. and it was obvious they were fake documents.  I mean like 3 stooges stuff.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

no lie.

no exaggeration.

no B.S.

 

and this was at a provincial mueang at one of it's most respected high schools.


    

  

Edited June 4, 2017 by maewang99

[kannot]

Judging by students proficiency in English I'd  say whatever system they use is  failing. Cant vouch for other subjects mind.

[chainarong]

Both sides of the spectrum are involved here, why only pick on Western Teachers , your home grown ones are far from qualified if you take what is required to become a teacher in the West, every inch of the Thai education system is second class, from the school class rooms to the Minister,  go figure.............................................

[impulse]

Just out of curiosity, do all Thai kids have to take English classes?  And in what years of their school careers?

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by impulse

[248900_1469958220]

I have kept up with all the requirements for teaching English in schools here in Thailand over the years. I am now, in the eyes of the Thai govt 100% qualified and legal.....and I am in a real minority I can tell you. I wouldnt like to even guess the amount of farang teaching here that dont have much more than a high school diploma. The numbers would be high. To be fully legal here now to teach (according to OBEC rules) you need to have a verifiable degree in education OR a verifiable degree AND a post grad dip in education. I am the ONLY farang I know in my area that has met these requirements. A TEFL certificate is all well and good but it doesnt really prepare you for the realities of teaching here. I think the degree requirement is fair but the salaries arent high enough....and thats putting it mildly. 

 

If there was a a genuine check up of all those teaching in schools here (wont happen too much money greases palms) and laws were enforced, thousands of farangs would have to go. Many are here working on other visas, though the eternal tourist visa and 'ed' visa routes arent as easy as there were. I have seen many have to leave because of this, some were good people, many are scumbags.

 

I am all for reasonable standards. I have tried to keep up with the ever changing goalposts the Thai govt throws at foreign teachers here. At the moment my head is above water. The dream though of having all farang teachers with ed degrees and paying them 30,000 - 40,000 per month is just that, a dream. Expectations are low here. Thai English teachers usually teach pretty pitiful English and we are left to plug up the holes in the dam of all the misinformation. Its all very well to set standards but you must also be willing to reward those standards being met. That isnt happening here. 

[steven100]

1 minute ago, 248900_1469958220 said:

I wouldnt like to even guess the amount of farang teaching here that dont have much more than a high school diploma. The numbers would be high.

It's probably in the 98%  range I would imagine.

Good that you are legally qualified and not a 7-11 english teacher.

[DM07]

Naaaaaaaah! For what???


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[ncc1701d]

5 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

 

Very few previous employers are likely to write: "John Smith was never convicted of child molestation but everyone thought he was a pervert." 

 

 

 

Lol. That's Gold. ?

[NoshowJones]

5 hours ago, tezzainthailand said:

A degree should not be a prerequisite for teaching in Thailand, but a TEFL and a TOEIC test should be, and a refresher TEFL course every four years as well.  By all means, if you have a degree you should have priority to get the best paying jobs, but if you have the talent to teach, a good command of the language and above average grammar, that should be enough to get a gig. 

The TEFL course I did got me a nice certificate, but taught me nothing about teaching young children in a government or private school, but was a big help to me if I wanted to teach in a language school, which I did not.

I learned all my teaching as an unpaid volunteer with the same teacher for a few weeks before I took my TEFL course although I would not have got the job teaching children in a government school without it.

[phantomfiddler]

What a ridiculous question ! How would it be if a hospital did not check the qualifications of it,s doctors and surgeons ? Teachers are the ones who, second to the parents, shape the minds of the next generation, and their ability to do this should be closely checked and their progress monitored.

[carbine1125]

A garage teacher slaps a kid and the court is in uproar. No one not should ever not ever hit a kid but it goes on all the time with Thai teachers with kids as young as three. It will never stop until they start to do hard time in jail.  No more Wais or excuses. Jai  the directors too if they cover up. But dot pick oh frags.  Start where the problem really.lies. with Thai teachers

[carbine1125]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

I agree.  If the teacher is prepared to commit fraud to get the job, it doesn't say much about their level of morals or honesty.

 

OTOH, I do not agree that having a degree is necessary to teach English in a government school. One has to be realistic here, bearing in mind the costs to obtain a degree and the salaries on offer by government schools.

 

IMHO, it is much more important that the teacher possesses an in-class (not online)TEFL qualification with in-class teaching practice, speaks English with a clear accent and has training in classroom management techniques (especially for those who will teach children and teens).

 

I'd like to see all foreign teachers sit (and pass) a test of basic English grammar, punctuation and vocabulary, before they are allowed to teach in a government school.

 

As a point of comment, in all the schools where I have taught (in Thailand, Laos and Myanmar), no school has ever checked my qualifications ==> 3 degrees plus numerous CPD teaching certificates).

I would like to see all foreigner pass a police check to be even in Thailand.