UK prosecutors charge six people over 1989 Hillsborough disaster that killed 96

[ddavidovsky]

11 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

 

1932 Donoghue v Stevenson

 

"The rule that you are to love your neighbour becomes in law you must not injure your neighbour; and the lawyer's question " Who is my neighbour ?" receives a restricted reply. You must take reasonable care to avoid acts or omissions which you can reasonably foresee would be likely to injure your neighbour. Who then in law is my neighbour ? The answer seems to be persons who are so closely and directly affected by my act that I ought reasonably to have them in contemplation as being so affected when I am directing my mind to the acts or omissions which are called in question."

 

Very nice, but there is culpable negligence such as reckless driving, or leaving a baby in a hot car - and there is professional misjudgement. Quite different. Doctors aren't prosecuted for misdiagnoses, army generals aren't prosecuted for bad strategic decisions, judges and juries aren't prosecuted for getting a sentence wrong, politicians aren't prosecuted for ANY of their mistakes. Misjudgements are made daily by all these people and many more. Mistakes should have consequences, but not legal, or people will be able to bring 'blame' cases to court for everything and there'll be no end to it. It's a recipe for a world I wouldn't want to live in.

[perthperson]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

It wasnt a unique crowd control situation. The same stadium suffered similiar crowd problems in previuos years.

Are you trying to say that every year 1000s of people without tickets attempted to break into an already full stadium?  

 

I do not think so........

[Ahab]

So why aren't the engineers that designed that section on trial? Or the construction company that built it? To blame police for the deaths of people caused by a stadium collapse is a perversion of justice. Maybe they could have made better decisions after the collapse, but the collapse killed people. The police did not engineer, construct, or cause the collapse, or am I missing something?

[ddavidovsky]

5 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

I put it to you that you are not familiar with the facts of this case and you are not familiar with the findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel. Please go and take a couple of days to read all relevant material and you will see that the actions of the police that have been charged not only were unlawful but also pass the UK CPS prosecution test of a reasonable chance of conviction.

 

You are posting based on your political standpoint rather than the facts of the case.

My position is entirely sociological, as always. And sociology is bigger than law.

You seem to be advocating a seismic change in the law that will have all sorts of consequences for society - to my mind more deleterious than advantageous. Mistakes were made at Hillsborough - I am well aware of what happened, but what is lawful in this case is subject to interpretation. The issue is now one of appropriate punishment, and nobody yet knows whether a crime has been committed until there is a trial. I am against prosecuting professional misjudgements on principle for reasons stated.

[rockingrobin]

14 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Are you trying to say that every year 1000s of people without tickets attempted to break into an already full stadium?  

 

I do not think so........

No, you need to look at the history of the stadium prior to the tragedy.

The stadium itself was not full , the pen the fans entered was full, however other adjacent areas were empty

[Briggsy]

1 minute ago, ddavidovsky said:

My position is entirely sociological, as always. And sociology is bigger than law.

You seem to be advocating a seismic change in the law that will have all sorts of consequences for society - to my mind more deleterious than advantageous. Mistakes were made at Hillsborough - I am well aware of what happened, but what is lawful in this case is subject to interpretation. The issue is now one of appropriate punishment, and nobody yet knows whether a crime has been committed until there is a trial. I am against prosecuting professional misjudgements on principle for reasons stated.

When does bare-faced lying by senior police to save one's own career become a professional misjudgement?

I don't believe you are familiar with the actions of the police as uncovered by the Hillsborough Independent Panel.

Nowhere am I "advocating a seismic change in the law". Police are prosecuted regularly in the UK for actions undertaken on-duty. And they will be prosecuted here.

I put it to you again. Stop trolling this thread. I don't believe you know the facts of this case. Please go and take the time to familiarise yourself with the findings of the Hillsborough Independent Panel. You are just trotting out some Fox News claptrap that has no relevance to this particular case.

Admit it. You know nothing about this case. You will be a bigger and better man if you do.

[rockingrobin]

18 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

Very nice, but there is culpable negligence such as reckless driving, or leaving a baby in a hot car - and there is professional misjudgement. Quite different. Doctors aren't prosecuted for misdiagnoses, army generals aren't prosecuted for bad strategic decisions, judges and juries aren't prosecuted for getting a sentence wrong, politicians aren't prosecuted for ANY of their mistakes. Misjudgements are made daily by all these people and many more. Mistakes should have consequences, but not legal, or people will be able to bring 'blame' cases to court for everything and there'll be no end to it. It's a recipe for a world I wouldn't want to live in.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11975150/Hospital-doctor-found-guilty-of-manslaugher-after-blunders-left-a-six-year-old-boy-dead.html

[perthperson]

12 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

No, you need to look at the history of the stadium prior to the tragedy.

The stadium itself was not full , the pen the fans entered was full, however other adjacent areas were empty

Noted 

 

I stand corrected -- so, according to you,  this was not a unique occurrence and every year (or every match day?) 1000's attempted to break into already full pen(s).  

 

Am I now understanding this "history" correctly ? 

 

 

[rockingrobin]

7 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Noted 

 

I stand corrected -- so, according to you,  this was not a unique occurrence and every year (or every match day?) 1000's attempted to break into already full pen(s).  

 

Am I now understanding this "history" correctly ? 

 

 

I did not say every match or even every matchday, my statement is that the situation was not unique .

The fans were not trying to brake into a full pen , they was directed into it

 

crowd problems 1981 semi final

delayed kick off due to crowd 1987 semi final

Crushing  1988 semi final

Edited June 29, 2017 by rockingrobin

[perthperson]

Just now, rockingrobin said:

I did not say every match or even every matchday, my statement is that the situation was not unique .

The fans were not trying to brake into a full pen , they was directed into it

 

Was this occurrence unique or not ?  If not (as you seem to be saying) how often did it occur ?  

 

Details would assist my understanding. Can you provide links to the press reports about similar occurrences 

[rockingrobin]

Just now, perthperson said:

 

Was this occurrence unique or not ?  If not (as you seem to be saying) how often did it occur ?  

 

Details would assist my understanding. Can you provide links to the press reports about similar occurrences 

see  my edited post

[Thaiwrath]

47 minutes ago, perthperson said:

Are you trying to say that every year 1000s of people without tickets attempted to break into an already full stadium?  

 

I do not think so........

A quick question............................ Were you there ?

I was, and your dumbfounded information is total BS.

[NanLaew]

16 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

Gee it took 28 years to officially accuse the police of incompetence. I wonder what caused ( motivated ?) the delay. 

Do you know anything about the Freemasons?

[Bluespunk]

21 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

I'm not convinced of the reasonableness of prosecuting police officers for decisions taken in their job. Many people have to make decisions that can have disastrous effects - especially politicians - it's too easy to judge after the event.

You can fire them, and even publicly humiliate them, but it's a grotesque misuse of the legal system to make them legally accountable for errors of judgement.

4 of these 6 men are charged with perverting the course of justice. 

 

They and others lied about what happened. 

 

They attempted to cover up theirs and others culpability. 

 

There must be justice for those deaths for which they are not only responsible, but then tried to blame upon the victims. 

 

JUSTICE

Edited June 29, 2017 by Bluespunk

[KhaoNiaw]

1 hour ago, perthperson said:

Are you trying to say that every year 1000s of people without tickets attempted to break into an already full stadium?  

 

I do not think so........

That's not what happened though is it? Go and read the evidence. It covered the issue of ticketless fans clearly. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by KhaoNiaw

[Rc2702]

This lad talking about misfortune is off his rocker end of not worth replying to. Justice is enroute and faith in the British justice system is being restored.

[perthperson]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

So why aren't the engineers that designed that section on trial? Or the construction company that built it? To blame police for the deaths of people caused by a stadium collapse is a perversion of justice. Maybe they could have made better decisions after the collapse, but the collapse killed people. The police did not engineer, construct, or cause the collapse, or am I missing something?

Yes you are missing the fact that the Hillsborough Disaster was not caused by a "stadium collapse"   

 

Where did you get that idea from? 

[lungbing]

Liverpool love to portray themselves as the perpetual victim.

It was not a crowd of policeman who killed the fans at Hillsborough, it was thousands of Liverpool fans, many without tickets either hoping to buy one on the day or to force their way in.  They had form regarding violence.  Look at the Heysel Stadium disaster.  I am a Nottingham Forest supporter who didn't go to the match simply because I wasn't an NFFC season ticket holder and couldn't get a ticket.  Accordingly to Liverpool fans every single one of them was there that day.

The ones that died were all young ones and those that didn't drink, those that arrived early.  They hadn't stopped off for a bevvy,  and they did have tickets.

[ddavidovsky]

1 hour ago, Briggsy said:

Police are prosecuted regularly in the UK for actions undertaken on-duty. And they will be prosecuted here.

 

Prosecutions are appropriate for pre-meditated law-breaking, not for professional mistakes.

 

Btw, do try to conduct a civil discussion. Emotion only clouds your judgement.

[Briggsy]

57 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

Prosecutions are appropriate for pre-meditated law-breaking, not for professional mistakes.

 

Btw, do try to conduct a civil discussion. Emotion only clouds your judgement.

You know nothing of the pertinent details of this case and you don't want to admit it. Go and do your research.

 

Your comment is ridiculous. Many crimes and thus prosecutions are not premeditated.

 

I put it to you again. Go and read the findings of the Hillsborough Independent  Panel. You will discover these were not "professional mistakes".

 

I doubt you will bother to find out the facts.

[ddavidovsky]

31 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

You know nothing of the pertinent details of this case and you don't want to admit it. Go and do your research.

 

Your comment is ridiculous. Many crimes and thus prosecutions are not premeditated.

 

I put it to you again. Go and read the findings of the Hillsborough Independent  Panel. You will discover these were not "professional mistakes".

 

I doubt you will bother to find out the facts.

I read the reports at the time. Errors of professional judgement were made. That's it. There was no malicious intent. Professionals have a moral responsibility to do the best they can, not a legal responsibility to be godlike.

[rockingrobin]

9 minutes ago, ddavidovsky said:

I read the reports at the time. Errors of professional judgement were made. That's it. There was no malicious intent. Professionals have a moral responsibility to do the best they can, not a legal responsibility to be godlike.

They have a legal duty of care

[KhaoNiaw]

3 hours ago, lungbing said:

Liverpool love to portray themselves as the perpetual victim.

It was not a crowd of policeman who killed the fans at Hillsborough, it was thousands of Liverpool fans, many without tickets either hoping to buy one on the day or to force their way in.  They had form regarding violence.  Look at the Heysel Stadium disaster.  I am a Nottingham Forest supporter who didn't go to the match simply because I wasn't an NFFC season ticket holder and couldn't get a ticket.  Accordingly to Liverpool fans every single one of them was there that day.

The ones that died were all young ones and those that didn't drink, those that arrived early.  They hadn't stopped off for a bevvy,  and they did have tickets.

Without descending into any abuse, you are completely wrong.  There weren't many without tickets - if you don't believe me, go back and read and sift though the evidence. There were not thousands of ticketless fans. It's simple. The evidence is clear.

 

If you are a football fan, go back to the stories of the Spurs supporters and the Man Utd supporters and you should understand that this is not just about those Liverpool fans. This is something where we all stand together. 

[manarak]

what ??? 28 years later?

[William C F Pierce]

17 hours ago, KhaoNiaw said:

Most of the points you're making are incorrect and have already been dealt with by inquiries and the last inquest. You should really go back and educate yourself on what happened and has come out since. And in 1989 you don't believe they had radio communications?  Those communications (and lack of) played a big part at the inquest. 

 

The statement made by A TV commentator well before the incident has never been raised in any inquiry or any media source. SO DON'T LIE! There was more fans than the ground was capable of holding. Otherwise the incident would never have happened. You must like breeding scapegoats. Try answering about who was responsible for the oversupply of tickets.

[Ahab]

13 hours ago, perthperson said:

Yes you are missing the fact that the Hillsborough Disaster was not caused by a "stadium collapse"   

 

Where did you get that idea from? 

I misread the article. The article used the word crush and for some reason that became crash and I assumed a collapse of something. Please forgive my mistake, English is not my first language (I am American) ?.

[KhaoNiaw]

7 hours ago, William C F Pierce said:

The statement made by A TV commentator well before the incident has never been raised in any inquiry or any media source. SO DON'T LIE! There was more fans than the ground was capable of holding. Otherwise the incident would never have happened. You must like breeding scapegoats. Try answering about who was responsible for the oversupply of tickets.

Explain to me how I'm lying. There's no need for abuse.

 

"Coroner Sir John Goldring, who is into his fifth day of summing up the case, reminded the jury of expert evidence from structural engineer John Cutlack. Mr Cutlack calculated the number of fans who entered the ground for the west stand, west terrace or north-west terrace on April 15, 1989, was 14,264. His figure included spectators who had entered through the turnstiles, through exit gate C when it was opened on two occasions or by climbing over the wall. But the court was reminded that that figure was 300 lower than the number of fans who had bought tickets for that area." 
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-jury-told-consider-entrance-10808664

 

You might be right to say that there were more fans than the ground was capable of holding. But that was because of mistakes by the relevant authorities in calculating the safe capacity:

"The total capacity for the Leppings Lane terrace had been calculated for Sheffield Wednesday's safety certificate in 1979 at 10,100, which Cutlack said was itself "substantially" excessive, yet it was never changed, even after the construction of pens and other changes to that end of the ground in the 80s that reduced safe capacity. Cutlack has told the inquest the correct safe figure should have been 7,247 people, 2,853 fewer."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/29/hillsborough-inquest-evidence-fans-tickets

 

For the build up of numbers of fans outside the ground:

"The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

 

I think you're trolling because you claim that the police didn't have radio communications in 1989 and that the inquiries and inquests haven't covered these issues. But if not, try educating yourself. The information is all out there now.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by KhaoNiaw

[rockingrobin]

8 hours ago, William C F Pierce said:

The statement made by A TV commentator well before the incident has never been raised in any inquiry or any media source. SO DON'T LIE! There was more fans than the ground was capable of holding. Otherwise the incident would never have happened. You must like breeding scapegoats. Try answering about who was responsible for the oversupply of tickets.

Whilst the ground safety crtificate was no longer valid.The evidence suggestsa lack of formal control to the filling and subsequent overcrowding of the  central pens

 

' 2.3.123 Police Constable Jim Walpole recalled that at '2.55pm the central pen for standing at the Leppings Lane end appeared to be absolutely packed solid whilst the pen towards the Police Control was about half full and the pen towards the North Stand was perhaps only one sixth full. For normal big games the standing fans at the Leppings Lane terrace have filled each pen slowly well before kick off'.[81] The following sentence was deleted: 'I did not hear any radio message for the entrance to the central pen to be closed off, despite this being packed solid'.  '

 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by rockingrobin

[nahkit]

On 6/28/2017 at 9:00 PM, ddavidovsky said:

I'm not convinced of the reasonableness of prosecuting police officers for decisions taken in their job. Many people have to make decisions that can have disastrous effects - especially politicians - it's too easy to judge after the event.

You can fire them, and even publicly humiliate them, but it's a grotesque misuse of the legal system to make them legally accountable for errors of judgement.

"Norman Bettison, a former police chief constable, was charged with four offences of misconduct in public office relating to telling alleged lies about his involvement in the aftermath of the disaster and the culpability of fans.

 

The other people were two other ex-police officers, a lawyer who had acted for police, and a safety officer at the Hillsborough stadium. Charges included perverting the course of justice, contravening safety regulations and misconduct in public office."

 

Lying and perverting the course of justice are not errors of judgement made in the heat of the moment.

[William C F Pierce]

12 hours ago, KhaoNiaw said:

Explain to me how I'm lying. There's no need for abuse.

 

"Coroner Sir John Goldring, who is into his fifth day of summing up the case, reminded the jury of expert evidence from structural engineer John Cutlack. Mr Cutlack calculated the number of fans who entered the ground for the west stand, west terrace or north-west terrace on April 15, 1989, was 14,264. His figure included spectators who had entered through the turnstiles, through exit gate C when it was opened on two occasions or by climbing over the wall. But the court was reminded that that figure was 300 lower than the number of fans who had bought tickets for that area." 
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-jury-told-consider-entrance-10808664

 

You might be right to say that there were more fans than the ground was capable of holding. But that was because of mistakes by the relevant authorities in calculating the safe capacity:

"The total capacity for the Leppings Lane terrace had been calculated for Sheffield Wednesday's safety certificate in 1979 at 10,100, which Cutlack said was itself "substantially" excessive, yet it was never changed, even after the construction of pens and other changes to that end of the ground in the 80s that reduced safe capacity. Cutlack has told the inquest the correct safe figure should have been 7,247 people, 2,853 fewer."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jun/29/hillsborough-inquest-evidence-fans-tickets

 

For the build up of numbers of fans outside the ground:

"The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

 

I think you're trolling because you claim that the police didn't have radio communications in 1989 and that the inquiries and inquests haven't covered these issues. But if not, try educating yourself. The information is all out there now.

 

 

None of that explains how 4000 people outside the ground had a right to access WHEN THE GROUND WAS ALREADY FULL. REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT SALES WERE 300 LOWER THAN CAPACITY. It must surely be assumed that there was an element of forgery in ticketing to account forv 4000 extra visiters. The police have been targeted so relentlessly over this for so long, that, they have never been in a position to investigate this. Despite the mistakes they themselves made. If, there is a shady backstreet printer responsible for this, they will now never be found.