Stomach ulcer - given too many drugs?

[RickG16]

I'm pretty confused right now...

 

Finished 2 weeks antibiotics but still feel the same intermittent ab pain in the same place as before. I went for stool test today and the blood part (which can indicate an ulcer) came back negative, but there was something in the WBC column which indicates some kind of bacteria - awaiting the results of further tests to see what it is.

 

If it isn't an ulcer, why does it tick off all the symptoms of one?

 

If it is an ulcer, why did the blood part come back negative? 

 

And if the bacteria is the H Pylori, how come the antibiotics didn't kill it, and how come the blood test doesn't indicate it's an ulcer??

 

Any thoughts / opinions welcome. I have asked some basic questions to the doctor, but I prefer to keep things simple so as not to confuse him.

[perthperson]

A single negative stool test for blood proves nothing -- A series of a least three is needed.  Presumably  the prime reason for the stool test was to test for H-pylori -- do you know if that is the case?   There is a lso a 'breath test' and a 'blood test' which may indicate the presence of H-p but there is no blood test which will confirm the presence/absence of a stomach ulcer. 

 

If it is proven that your problem is linked to H-pylori there are a number of other treatment options/regimes available.

 

The content of the link will answer most(all?) of your questions. 

 

http://gi.org/guideline/treatment-of-helicobacter-pylori-infection/

 

 

[RickG16]

2 hours ago, perthperson said:

A single negative stool test for blood proves nothing -- A series of a least three is needed.  Presumably  the prime reason for the stool test was to test for H-pylori -- do you know if that is the case?   There is a lso a 'breath test' and a 'blood test' which may indicate the presence of H-p but there is no blood test which will confirm the presence/absence of a stomach ulcer. 

 

If it is proven that your problem is linked to H-pylori there are a number of other treatment options/regimes available.

 

The content of the link will answer most(all?) of your questions. 

 

http://gi.org/guideline/treatment-of-helicobacter-pylori-infection/

 

 

 

I was told that the examination for blood as part of the stool test (rather than an actual blood test) was to check for the presence of an ulcer. The further examinations of the stool test (which I will have to wait for), will tell me the type of bacteria found, the presence of which was indicated by the WBC (white blood cell) count. 

[Sheryl]

It is not clear from what yo uay if you have been tested for h.pylori, or if they are just checking for parasites.

 

There will not always be blood in the stool - let alone in one single sample - of there is an ulcer.

 

As I explained previously, eradication of h. pylori, even when successful, does not instantaneously cure an ulcer, or gastritis.   It simply removes the initial cause, you still have an erosion in the wall of the stomach or duodenum and this takes time to heal...typically up to 2 months) during which time it is necessary to continue to take acid-lowering drugs.

 

It does not sound like communication with your doctor is optimal. Where do you live? Consulting a good GI specialist might be wise.

[NoBrainer]

OK So here my 2 cents worth.

 

Many years ago, I was under considerable stress, and developed a stomach ulcer, it was quite painful, and the common treatment back then was to lower acid levels, change diet away from

things that antagonize it Etc. This was in the early 80's and many doctors still did not treat for bacterial infections.

 

An old Polish friend told me to drink cabbage juice. At first i though this was hogwash, but I did some research, and found that cabbage juice was being used for thousands of years, to treat

stomach ulcers.

 

So I got my self a juicer and proceeded to drink a large glass of cabbage juice daily for about 3 weeks. At first it tasted quite bad, but then I found I could mix in a carrot or apple to make it tolerable.

 

Anyway the ulcer went away, and has never returned after all these years. Was like a miracle. Since that time I have recommended cabbage juice to many people suffering from possible stomach

ulcers, including some thai people over the past 10 years, and every one that bothered to try it had the same results. Ulcer symptoms cured.

 

I am no homeopath and strongly believe in modern medicine, when necessary, but the way the medical industry is structured today, they are definitely pushing tons of un-necceary medicines.

 

P.S. You can use Green cabbage or Purple cabbage or a mixture, but juice it slowly as it is string and hard on your juicing machine.

 

Maybe Sheryl (above) might like to chime in on this, as she is probably the resident expert in the medical field here on TV.

Edited July 16, 2017 by NoBrainer

[perthperson]

7 minutes ago, NoBrainer said:

OK So here my 2 cents worth...............................etc

 

The only academic references I can find about this are decades old. There does not seem to be any recent studies which would confirm/refute what you say. 

 

Personally I would rely on the proven power of modern day medicine if I had a "stomach" problem ... 

[NoBrainer]

4 minutes ago, perthperson said:

The only academic references I can find about this are decades old. There does not seem to be any recent studies which would confirm/refute what you say. 

 

Personally I would rely on the proven power of modern day medicine if I had a "stomach" problem ... 

Yes you are correct.

 

I can only put that down to the medical industry as a whole, trying to suppress any remedies that do not require their services.  

 

I am only relating my personal experience, and in know way, recommending that this corse of action should be followed, just giving the OP something else to look into.

 

Maybe a quick Google search of  "Cabbage Juice for Stomach Ulcers" would provide some more information for the OP.

 

P.S. I don't own a Cabbage Farm. 555

[shaurene]

Hi Rick

not much in medication for Ulcers especially antibiotics.

If you can the best treatment is natural. Manuca Honey from New Zealand. Try and get some from a farmacy or top food store like Topps.

it has been proved. I am from New zealand and i always bring back 3-4 x 1 kilo jars. I can give you details of a supplyer/maker in Nz who i am sure would send to you. 

www.nelsonhoney.com it is minimum 30+ activation.

I pay NZ$50 a 1 kilo pack. 2,000 baht but well worth it. 

[Sheryl]

While there is no harm in taking either cabbage or honey, please do not forego proper medical care i nthe expectation that such folk remedies will do the trick.

 

Basically the issue is whether your pain is due to ulcer/gastritis or something else. That immediately after completing 2 week empirical treatment for h. pylori your symptoms are unchanged does not mean anything, as explained it is not expected that an ulcer would heal that quickly. The healing would just be starting, provided h. pylori was eradicated (which is wise to check through a urea breath test or other test).  But keep in mind as more time passes, that the pain could be due to something else, and if was time passes there is still no improvement then endoscopy is definitely indicated.

 

I am not clear if the doctor you have seen is a GI specialist. It might be worth seein gsoemone else especially as it sounds like the communication isn't so good.

[psyvolt]

On 30/06/2017 at 11:19 PM, Sheryl said:

Thsi requires triple therapy with 3 drugs: 2 antibiotics and a PPI. So that is the 2 antibiotics and meracid you are getting.

Completely agree, and good practice that the doc has prescribed.

The two Antibiotics should be Amoxicillin and Clarithromycin, with the broad spectrum AB been used to stop any further nastys happening whilst your healing, and the clarithromycin (narrow spectrum) been used to kill the current bacteria causing the peptic ulcer. You should also have been prescribed a protom pump inhibitor (PPI) to decrease your gastric secretions whilst your healing.

The PPI will/should be something along the lines of omeprazole (or something similar sounding with the name ending in Zole).

Be sure to take the full course and avoid alcohol and spicy foods whilst on the treatment.

[psyvolt]

55 minutes ago, NoBrainer said:

 

I can only put that down to the medical industry as a whole, trying to suppress any remedies that do not require their services.  

A lot of the time, it's also because these natural remedies that do work has some fairly major contra-indications when combined with other drugs. Things that cabbage may interact negatively with of the top of my head is Anti-coagulents - warfarin (Coumadin) and some analgesic meds. So if you are determined to use natural products, pls be sure to get the all clear from a doc before starting.

[RickG16]

1 hour ago, NoBrainer said:

OK So here my 2 cents worth.

 

Many years ago, I was under considerable stress, and developed a stomach ulcer, it was quite painful, and the common treatment back then was to lower acid levels, change diet away from

things that antagonize it Etc. This was in the early 80's and many doctors still did not treat for bacterial infections.

 

An old Polish friend told me to drink cabbage juice. At first i though this was hogwash, but I did some research, and found that cabbage juice was being used for thousands of years, to treat

stomach ulcers.

 

So I got my self a juicer and proceeded to drink a large glass of cabbage juice daily for about 3 weeks. At first it tasted quite bad, but then I found I could mix in a carrot or apple to make it tolerable.

 

Anyway the ulcer went away, and has never returned after all these years. Was like a miracle. Since that time I have recommended cabbage juice to many people suffering from possible stomach

ulcers, including some thai people over the past 10 years, and every one that bothered to try it had the same results. Ulcer symptoms cured.

 

I am no homeopath and strongly believe in modern medicine, when necessary, but the way the medical industry is structured today, they are definitely pushing tons of un-necceary medicines.

 

P.S. You can use Green cabbage or Purple cabbage or a mixture, but juice it slowly as it is string and hard on your juicing machine.

 

Maybe Sheryl (above) might like to chime in on this, as she is probably the resident expert in the medical field here on TV.

Will definitely stick with the medicine but trying some cabbage juice can do no harm at all - nice one!

 

Will ask my local juice lady if she can slip some into my apple shake (will probably have to buy it for her)

[RickG16]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

While there is no harm in taking either cabbage or honey, please do not forego proper medical care i nthe expectation that such folk remedies will do the trick.

 

Basically the issue is whether your pain is due to ulcer/gastritis or something else. That immediately after completing 2 week empirical treatment for h. pylori your symptoms are unchanged does not mean anything, as explained it is not expected that an ulcer would heal that quickly. The healing would just be starting, provided h. pylori was eradicated (which is wise to check through a urea breath test or other test).  But keep in mind as more time passes, that the pain could be due to something else, and if was time passes there is still no improvement then endoscopy is definitely indicated.

 

I am not clear if the doctor you have seen is a GI specialist. It might be worth seein gsoemone else especially as it sounds like the communication isn't so good.

Thanks - as usual I am impatient in the healing process. Will know if there is still some H Pylori around when I get results next week.

 

In the meantime will try to steer clear of the scare stories about antacids on the internet.

[WERWOLF]

Kefir or Buttermilk helped me.

A  1/2 Liter every day and in one week I was free of ulcer.

[snowgard]

I am surprised that no one tell to take Omeprazole 2 x daily for 2-3 weeks. 

 

This was the best help for me after 35 years of gastro problems.
 

[psyvolt]

1 minute ago, snowgard said:

I am surprised that no one tell to take Omeprazole 2 x daily for 2-3 weeks. 

 

This was the best help for me after 35 years of gastro problems.
 

You need to read my post a few posts before yours, as I mentioned that very drug. Which btw, will not have any effect on an ulcer and healing it. You need to get read of the bacteria before the healing can start.

[perthperson]

2 minutes ago, snowgard said:

I am surprised that no one tell to take Omeprazole 2 x daily for 2-3 weeks. 

 

This was the best help for me after 35 years of gastro problems.
 

It is highly likely that the OP was prescribed a PPI but he has chosen not to name the medications he is taking. 

 

FYI  

There are many PPI medication now available.  Omeprazole is a first generation drug which is acknowledged to have limitations. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11430506

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

He did mention it, right at the beginning. Miracid is a brand of omeprazole.

 

 

[nasanews]

I would recommend Nexium 40mg one tablet a day keeps stomach ulcer away.

You take in the morning.

[RickG16]

30 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

He did mention it, right at the beginning. Miracid is a brand of omeprazole.

 

 

Yup - now the antibiotics have finished I have omeprazole twice a day, Diagest (I think also classed an antacid, but for after meals), and Ranitidine for before bed.

[psyvolt]

9 minutes ago, nasanews said:

I would recommend Nexium 40mg one tablet a day keeps stomach ulcer away.

You take in the morning.

Which is a brand name for esomeprazole, which is another PPI. Which has been suggest quite a few times already, and of which the OP is already on in the form omeprazole.

[Tony125]

On 6/30/2017 at 10:02 PM, RickG16 said:

I think it sounds like this is a normal amount of drugs then! Just never been given this many different meds for anything before.

 

Doctor said we will do 2 weeks on the antibiotics, and if still not better, then go for the camera in stomach. 

Many years ago I was getting stomach pain when eating spicy foods , My Dr said it was an ulcer. Put me on 2 antibiotics to kill the H-pylori and Pepto-Bismol  = bismuth subsalicylate to coat stomach . After 2 weeks I stopped the treatment and nevery had pain again from eating spicy food.

[mfd101]

I hesitate to offer comment in the presence of so much expert medical advice, but my understanding - from the 1980s when Oz scientists in Perth discovered the causal factor being H. pylori and the acidic environment in which it thrives - was that eating a couple of spoonfuls of yoghurt each day with live bacteria of the 'good' variety (Lactobacillus & Bifido) both alters the balance in the stomach so that H. pylori cannot thrive and repopulates your gut with more useful bacteria.

 

I regularly take yoghurt with the live bacteria (not the sugar-laden rubbish) and I've never had a problem. Cheap too.

 

But what would I know?

[perthperson]

4 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

I hesitate to offer comment in the presence of so much expert medical advice, but my understanding - from the 1980s when Oz scientists in Perth discovered the causal factor being H. pylori and the acidic environment in which it thrives - was that eating a couple of spoonfuls of yoghurt each day with live bacteria of the 'good' variety (Lactobacillus & Bifido) both alters the balance in the stomach so that H. pylori cannot thrive and repopulates your gut with more useful bacteria.

 

I regularly take yoghurt with the live bacteria (not the sugar-laden rubbish) and I've never had a problem. Cheap too.

 

But what would I know?

I do not recall  Barry Marshall and Robin Warren (the researchers who discovered H-p) ever making claims about yogurt being helpful. 

[Sheryl]

I also regulalyl eat yogurt, make my own. Nonetheless had quite a problem with h. pylori, took many treatments to eradicate and even longer to heal the resulting ulcer.

 

Yogurt is helpful in restoring healthy gut bacteria, may decrease yeast infections in women, but it no way prevents or cures h. pylori.

[psyvolt]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I also regulalyl eat yogurt, make my own. Nonetheless had quite a problem with h. pylori, took many treatments to eradicate and even longer to heal the resulting ulcer.

 

Yogurt is helpful in restoring healthy gut bacteria, may decrease yeast infections in women, but it no way prevents or cures h. pylori.

Absolutely correct, that's two different things been talked about, with the ulcer been aa different beast to what yogurt can be useful for.

[skydiver77]

I may have missed it, but I've not seen a more natual way of curing an ulcer. Using the following, I was cured of a duodenal ulcer within 3 weeks.

After going thrù the usual antacid tabs etc, i had the camera shot. Then medic suggested 2 spoons of honey daily. But it must be Manuka honey from N Z

That sorted it. Not had any probs over 10yrs.

[partington]

2 hours ago, skydiver77 said:

I may have missed it, but I've not seen a more natual way of curing an ulcer. Using the following, I was cured of a duodenal ulcer within 3 weeks.

After going thrù the usual antacid tabs etc, i had the camera shot. Then medic suggested 2 spoons of honey daily. But it must be Manuka honey from N Z

That sorted it. Not had any probs over 10yrs.

The problem with ascribing a cure to this, or to cures like cabbage juice (mentioned above), is that a certain proportion of ulcers ( in some studies  about 50%) spontaneously heal on their own.

 

This means in the absence of any systematic test, there is no way of proving, or even saying it is likely, that the substances taken had anything to do with the ulcer resolving itself.

 

Scientific methods were developed just so the answers to questions like this (does cabbage juice have any effect on the remission of ulcers?) that can't be determined with any certainty  by adding up stories of personal experience, can be discovered.

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6740218

 

Spontaneous healing of duodenal ulcers. Frederiksen HJ, Matzen P, Madsen P, Kragelund E, Krag E, Christiansen PM, Bonnevie O.

 

Ninety-one patients with duodenal, pyloric, or prepyloric ulcers were studied endoscopically. Spontaneous ulcer healing was seen in 29 patients within 2 weeks (rapid healing) and in 23 patients within 6 weeks (slow healing). More ulcers healed spontaneously in women than in men (P less than 0.05). [...]. During follow-up study for 2 years of patients with spontaneously healed ulcers 13 patients had no recurrence, whereas 19 patients had 1 or 2 recurrences, which also healed spontaneously; 11 patients had to be given active treatment, and 9 patients did not complete the study. 

Edited July 17, 2017 by partington

[RickG16]

6 minutes ago, partington said:

The problem with ascribing a cure to this, or to cures like cabbage juice (mentioned above), is that a certain proportion of ulcers ( in some studies  about 50%) spontaneously heal on their own.

 

This means in the absence of any systematic test, there is no way of proving, or even saying it is likely, that the substances taken had anything to do with the ulcer resolving itself.

 

Scientific methods were developed just so the answers to questions like this (does cabbage juice have any effect on the remission of ulcers?) that can't be determined with any certainty  by adding up stories of personal experience, can be discovered.

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6740218

 

Spontaneous healing of duodenal ulcers. Frederiksen HJ, Matzen P, Madsen P, Kragelund E, Krag E, Christiansen PM, Bonnevie O.

 

Ninety-one patients with duodenal, pyloric, or prepyloric ulcers were studied endoscopically. Spontaneous ulcer healing was seen in 29 patients within 2 weeks (rapid healing) and in 23 patients within 6 weeks (slow healing). More ulcers healed spontaneously in women than in men (P less than 0.05). [...]. During follow-up study for 2 years of patients with spontaneously healed ulcers 13 patients had no recurrence, whereas 19 patients had 1 or 2 recurrences, which also healed spontaneously; 11 patients had to be given active treatment, and 9 patients did not complete the study. 

Good points... It may also be that these things have a placebo effect.

 

Still, I've been loading up on yogurt these past weeks, and adding cabbages (assuming eating the veg is the same as drinking the juice)  to the mix can't do any harm. Shipping over the special honey from NZ might be pushing it though.

[perthperson]

22 minutes ago, partington said:

The problem with ascribing a cure to this, or to cures like cabbage juice (mentioned above), is that a certain proportion of ulcers ( in some studies  about 50%) spontaneously heal on their own.

This just highlights the old  "Allopathic" v "Natural Cure" debate !  It is a discussion not worth entering because many are entrenched in firmly held beliefs which will not change. 

 

On a personal basis I agree with your post.