Court rejects Yingluck’s request for court to examine rice warehouses

[Chris Lawrence]

5 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Thai law:

 

1. No Juries
2. No 'precedent' informing future decisions
3. No moderation, check nor balance and highly politicised  

Lana, the other thing here is that isn't the Military court in control. That is everything political needs to be run by them first.

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Chris Lawrence

[seajae]

"At the trial, two relatives of farmers who committed suicide in Roi Et and Nonthaburi provinces testified on her behalf, saying the farmers killed themselves for personal reasons."

Well we now know why it costs her 2 million baht a month to live, have to wonder how closely related they were and what they got out of it.

[Si Thea01]

9 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Thai law:

 

1. No Juries
2. No 'precedent' informing future decisions
3. No moderation, check nor balance and highly politicised  

Well, it is Thailand and their legal system, foreigners will just have to get over it.  I have experienced, first hand, the Thai legal system, wasn't happy with the outcome but accepted that the result would not be as I would have expected from the legal system in my home country. Life does go on and I've gotten over it.

[tifino]

4. No presumption of Innocence...

[RawboneFunksta]

Anyone who thinks this whole affair is anything more than a complete 'fit up' is two sacks short of a ton.

[Chris Lawrence]

55 minutes ago, robblok said:

You know as well as I do this is possible but the figures would hold no value at all. The audit at the time holds far more value then one done after the time because its hard to recreate the state it was then. That is easy with the examples you are quoting.. but not with rice stocks all over the country. She is just stalling. I guess you were not good at your job.. or were used to selling B.S. that people believed. 

 

Doing an validation of a building in the past is easy.. especially in the West.. but this is totally different. The chances that anything real comes out of it is nill. Its hard enough to valuate something at the moment when you got all the evidence.. a few years after the fact with rice movements and so on in a country like this were records are not kept well... good luck.

 

If she wanted to check something she would have to check the valuation report at the time, not try to recreate one 2 years after the fact. The other newspaper shows that she wants to go to the nicest of storage's to say rotten rice is not true.. while we seen the pics.. we also seen pics of scaffolds and missing rice. 

That's why you put qualifications in.

 

The word is Value. I know English is not your first language.

 

My first ever valuation I did a shopping centre next to a Lend Lease Shopping centre. I put $4.2 million on it. It sold at Auction for $6.5 million. My boss asked the question and went thru the valuation. My proviso was this does not include the interest of an adjoining owner. Who bought it Lend Lease. They had a $100 million expansion program that had not yet gone to council. They were sitting on it to get the property cheap. 6 months latter I found from Lend Lease valuers they put $4.25 million. In the scheme of things not bad. 

 

Always cover your arse when producing documents that can be challenged in court.

 

Again they found the Titanic. It can be done.

 

We don't have crystal balls so we can't project into the future, but we can gather information from the past. Jobs like this are about evidence gathering, talking, build information, use historical data, how rice was paid for and to who, accounting methods used, collation of documents, who was in charge, conditions of storage, market conditions just to name a few.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Chris Lawrence said:

That's why you put qualifications in.

 

The word is Value. I know English is not your first language.

 

My first ever valuation I did a shopping centre next to a Lend Lease Shopping centre. I put $4.2 million on it. It sold at Auction for $6.5 million. My boss asked the question and went thru the valuation. My proviso was this does not include the interest of an adjoining owner. Who bought it Lend Lease. They had a $100 million expansion program that had not yet gone to council. They were sitting on it to get the property cheap. 6 months latter I found from Lend Lease valuers they put $4.25 million. In the scheme of things not bad. 

 

Always cover your arse when producing documents that can be challenged in court.

 

Again they found the Titanic. It can be done.

 

We don't have crystal balls so we can't project into the future, but we can gather information from the past. Jobs like this are about evidence gathering, talking, build information, use historical data, how rice was paid for and to who, accounting methods used, collation of documents, who was in charge, conditions of storage, market conditions just to name a few.

That is what i mean Chris.. you should realize your limitations as I do mine. I have often been asked to value a company (there are countless formulas for that). However in the end the real value is what is given for the house / company. You can influence things so easy if you want too. If you take 2 accountants one for the buying and one for the selling party they will both come with an other value, and both could be totally right in their claim.

 

This with the rice is a few steps more complicated as you would have to keep trace of tracking what stock was sold already what batch it was what quality and how it relates to the other stock. To think that is registered here is crazy..so whatever figure comes out is always less accurate as what value was calculated by the original estimate (and I have my doubts about that accuracy too given the amount of rice and different store houses). Best YL could do is contest that value.. and try to poke holes in the calculation. However what she now wants according to the other newspaper is to go to a number of good warehouses and use them as showcase there is WAS no rotting rice. Now that is of course a nice try and a real diversion not to mention delaying tactic. We all have seen pictures and reports on rotting rice.. that rice has been destroyed.. or shipped off so she will find no more rotting rice and conclude it was never there. That is is what she wants. (and of course delay it all)

 

Your claim they found the titanic so everything can be done.. so far there is no proof of intelligent alien life.. I thought everything could be done.. why is that not done then ? So your statement.. nice.. not really a good one. 

[Smarter Than You]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

True... but have any US serving ever done something as bad on this scale. I can tell you that in my country they would really prosecute you if you blew an amount compatible to the health cost of a year of the nation in an off book project that was not to cost money and have no accounts of it. 

On what scale?

 

"Even if the most conservative estimate of costs provided by the Thai officials is considered, this program has cost Thailand a significant amount of money. Overall, though, the program is not that expensive. There are countless examples of governments around the world investing in much costlier failed projects. So where is the controversy? How did this lead to the downfall of Shinawatra."

 

That's right, the rice pledging scheme really doesn't rank all that high when it comes to failed policies of governments around the world.

[Becker]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

As I said, if you can't tell the difference between a logical assumption and a definite statement, it is a personal problem. I have no interest in engaging in another of your circular arguments over nothing.

The "nothing" being your fallacious arguments? You have over the years ad nauseam stated as a fact that the rice scheme led to countless suicides, and now that someone is contesting that fact you run around in circles like a headless chicken.

Very entertaining. 

[halloween]

1 minute ago, Smarter Than You said:

On what scale?

 

"Even if the most conservative estimate of costs provided by the Thai officials is considered, this program has cost Thailand a significant amount of money. Overall, though, the program is not that expensive. There are countless examples of governments around the world investing in much costlier failed projects. So where is the controversy? How did this lead to the downfall of Shinawatra."

 

That's right, the rice pledging scheme really doesn't rank all that high when it comes to failed policies of governments around the world.

The charge is negligence for failing to stop or at least reduce the continuing losses, in a project forecast by many professionals as being misguided in its conception. That it had already been tried, was found to be seriously lacking and riddled with corruption, didn't deter its re-inception because it was very profitable for her corrupt brother and his cronies acting as agents in the rice sales.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

On what scale?

 

"Even if the most conservative estimate of costs provided by the Thai officials is considered, this program has cost Thailand a significant amount of money. Overall, though, the program is not that expensive. There are countless examples of governments around the world investing in much costlier failed projects. So where is the controversy? How did this lead to the downfall of Shinawatra."

 

That's right, the rice pledging scheme really doesn't rank all that high when it comes to failed policies of governments around the world.

Its an amount equal to the total health budget of a year. Comparing it with other countries is pointless you have to compare it with other parts of the budget in Thailand. You could almost finance the whole healthcare budget for 1 year with this money. If you find that peanuts, that is up to you. Given the shortages in the health system a spending almost equal to the health budget in a year is not a little bit.

 

[Cadbury]

54 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Perhaps you should have asked that question a few years ago when she was in charge of the rice scheme.

It was not Yingluck's fault that scheme was loser for many and a winner for a few. The fault lies outside Thailand.

In a cunning Baldrick like plan two sneaky countries India and Vietnam flooded the market with rice while Thailand was busily stacking it away in sheds to try to create demand and lift the price. Thailand was asleep at the wheel.

I think over recent years during the time of the junta rule a lot of that rice has mysteriously disappeared along with the revenue for it. I am guessing connected people are not happy about others going around poking about in the sheds and asking questions. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Cadbury

[LannaGuy]

4 minutes ago, halloween said:

The charge is negligence for failing to stop or at least reduce the continuing losses, in a project forecast by many professionals as being misguided in its conception. That it had already been tried, was found to be seriously lacking and riddled with corruption, didn't deter its re-inception because it was very profitable for her corrupt brother and his cronies acting as agents in the rice sales.

links? proof?  or just 'noise'?  many professionals, politicians and others were against the Iraq War, Afghanistan, the Poll Tax and many other strategies but they were ELECTED to make those decisions you can't go back over mistakes and crucify those elected to undertake them but that's what they are doing here.

[Smarter Than You]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Its an amount equal to the total health budget of a year. Comparing it with other countries is pointless you have to compare it with other parts of the budget in Thailand. You could almost finance the whole healthcare budget for 1 year with this money. If you find that peanuts, that is up to you. Given the shortages in the health system a spending almost equal to the health budget in a year is not a little bit.

 

Thailand lost a significant amount of money due to the rice scheme.

Other countries have lost much, much more as a result of their own "failed projects".

 

The point is to contrast the reactions those countries had  to Thailand's reaction.

The other countries didn't resort to coups and kangaroo courts.

Losses from a failed government policy does not justify overthrowing democracy.

[Cadbury]

1 minute ago, Smarter Than You said:

Thailand lost a significant amount of money due to the rice scheme.

Other countries have lost much, much more as a result of their own "failed projects".

 

The point is to contrast the reactions those countries had  to Thailand's reaction.

The other countries didn't resort to coups and kangaroo courts.

Losses from a failed government policy does not justify overthrowing democracy.

Courtesy of Article 44 Mr. Immunity has made sure he will never be held responsible for his mistakes.

[robblok]

5 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

Thailand lost a significant amount of money due to the rice scheme.

Other countries have lost much, much more as a result of their own "failed projects".

 

The point is to contrast the reactions those countries had  to Thailand's reaction.

The other countries didn't resort to coups and kangaroo courts.

Losses from a failed government policy does not justify overthrowing democracy.

You have to compare it to the amounts of the GDP.. I mean a loss of this magnitude is nothing for the USA but a lot for lets say its a lot for a small country like Laos. So I hope you understand what I mean, not everyone understands numbers and how easy it is to manipulate them. So just stating other countries have lost more money does not mean a thing. You get it.. unless you can find a country with compatible budget it wont mean a thing. 

 

IF in my home country a PM would keep an amount equal to our yearly health budget off books and claimed it would be cost free I am sure he would be in jail too. But in my country the opposition would have access to the figures unlike here where YL threatened the official that came out with loss figures and the democrat for showing rotting rice.

Edited June 30, 2017 by robblok

[JAG]

can you imagine being a judge on cases like this and having the listen to all the crap, from both sides, day-in-and-day-out for months ?

Especially when you already know the verdict you are required to deliver...

[robblok]

1 minute ago, JAG said:

Especially when you already know the verdict you are required to deliver...

I would not want a judge on a case like this.. YL and hers have threatened judges before (and bribed them) Can you imagine the health risks of a tough verdict against YL... I wonder if its safe for a judge who does this.  

[Chris Lawrence]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

That is what i mean Chris.. you should realize your limitations as I do mine. I have often been asked to value a company (there are countless formulas for that). However in the end the real value is what is given for the house / company. You can influence things so easy if you want too. If you take 2 accountants one for the buying and one for the selling party they will both come with an other value, and both could be totally right in their claim.

 

This with the rice is a few steps more complicated as you would have to keep trace of tracking what stock was sold already what batch it was what quality and how it relates to the other stock. To think that is registered here is crazy..so whatever figure comes out is always less accurate as what value was calculated by the original estimate (and I have my doubts about that accuracy too given the amount of rice and different store houses). Best YL could do is contest that value.. and try to poke holes in the calculation. However what she now wants according to the other newspaper is to go to a number of good warehouses and use them as showcase there is WAS no rotting rice. Now that is of course a nice try and a real diversion not to mention delaying tactic. We all have seen pictures and reports on rotting rice.. that rice has been destroyed.. or shipped off so she will find no more rotting rice and conclude it was never there. That is is what she wants. (and of course delay it all)

 

Your claim they found the titanic so everything can be done.. so far there is no proof of intelligent alien life.. I thought everything could be done.. why is that not done then ? So your statement.. nice.. not really a good one. 

Yeah your points are good Rob.

 

But my example is; we are not dealing in an exact science. That's the name of the game. Its then who has the best comparable account to compare like with like.

 

What YL wants and what she can do are two different things. But she has earned a right to exam the evidence. Then its up to the experts to hear the evidence. Unfortunately some TV members believe they are already in the panel of 12. But Thai courts don't have juries?

 

The matter has to viewed as a whole, not pockets. You and I know that won't work.

 

But that's what I can't understand. Its like a bidding war here on TV, where up to 500 billion baht. Its just a bunch of anal rubbish.

 

I have learnt to research before you post here. Then you get people coming along with no evidence and say you are wrong. Or there are these wise old owls that are that far right, I have met Nazi skinheads that are better mannered and more refined. Yeah I have dealt with them.

 

No I am orange sorry; not red or yellow. I just think people should have a fair go when they are confronted. My other 20 years of work was in Drug and Alcohol. I did that because it feed my soul. I don't like bullies and I advocate that everyone has certain rights. There are people I have worked with I detested but that was my job. They got the same treatment.

 

Now as I said before Rob, what would you do. I would be using every bit of that money I didn't have and contest this like my life dependent on it. But this is what it is about a political game. They all went to the same school. Their mums used to chat to other mum's.

 

Also remember the mad monk, I think was still in Parliament while technically insolvent and then ran the campaign against YL government.

 

I have no problem with you Rob. Your a conservative right winger, but I have played both left and right wing' in football. And I never wore shoulder pads. 

[robblok]

15 minutes ago, Chris Lawrence said:

Yeah your points are good Rob.

 

But my example is; we are not dealing in an exact science. That's the name of the game. Its then who has the best comparable account to compare like with like.

 

What YL wants and what she can do are two different things. But she has earned a right to exam the evidence. Then its up to the experts to hear the evidence. Unfortunately some TV members believe they are already in the panel of 12. But Thai courts don't have juries?

 

The matter has to viewed as a whole, not pockets. You and I know that won't work.

 

But that's what I can't understand. Its like a bidding war here on TV, where up to 500 billion baht. Its just a bunch of anal rubbish.

 

I have learnt to research before you post here. Then you get people coming along with no evidence and say you are wrong. Or there are these wise old owls that are that far right, I have met Nazi skinheads that are better mannered and more refined. Yeah I have dealt with them.

 

No I am orange sorry; not red or yellow. I just think people should have a fair go when they are confronted. My other 20 years of work was in Drug and Alcohol. I did that because it feed my soul. I don't like bullies and I advocate that everyone has certain rights. There are people I have worked with I detested but that was my job. They got the same treatment.

 

Now as I said before Rob, what would you do. I would be using every bit of that money I didn't have and contest this like my life dependent on it. But this is what it is about a political game. They all went to the same school. Their mums used to chat to other mum's.

 

Also remember the mad monk, I think was still in Parliament while technically insolvent and then ran the campaign against YL government.

 

I have no problem with you Rob. Your a conservative right winger, but I have played both left and right wing' in football. And I never wore shoulder pads. 

I have no problem with you or anyone else around here.. just heated debate. For me that is all fun and games. 

 

I think I am probably 10x more liberal then you on the drug front being from the Netherlands and all. 

 

You are right its no exact science.. right now the last figure I saw was under 200 billion. Still that is the same amount as the health budget for a whole year. 

 

What YL is doing is trying to stall it and hope that if she ever gets in power again she can make it go away or move even slower. The last thing she wants is to have this play out under a junta when she has no power of influence. That is how they all play yellow and red. Stalling is the standard way to work here. 

I would do exactly the same if I were here, however now I am against here and I would want to see her go down for it. Not only her, but I like this to be a case that would be used to enable other cases too where politicians flaunt the law. I would like to see far more punishment on corruption and the likes. I don't really care if its army or Democrats or whoever.. I want them all punished. I don't join the club that says.. they are not getting punished so we should not be punished either. If that was how it worked it would even be worse here.

[robblok]

11 minutes ago, Smarter Than You said:

The men with the guns and the willingness to use them are the ones that pull the strings that make the judges dance.

The judges are on the side of the aggressors, they'll be just fine.

 

I see you've snuck in a reference to Trat - well done.

 

Let's see how your fears align with those of a doctor and former PDRC whistleblower

 

“Let’s hold an election now. We’re sick of the junta. At least under an elected government, we can criticize, express ideas, and negotiate. Doing such things is very difficult under the junta,” said Supat. “This is a big lesson for all Thai people, that we might despair of representative democracy but a coup d’état is absolutely not an option in any way.”

 

Many Thais who supported the removal of Yingluck have woken up to their mistake and here you are, still going to be banging on about Trat.

Mate, I have said a few times that I want the junta to hold elections, but that does not mean I excuse YL for what she did. You seem to connect it all together.. your far too black and white.. or red and yellow in this case.

I have seen enough of the junta too, but I am quite happy with the cases against the PTP bigshots in the fake G2G deals and other stuff like this.

[ramrod711]

7 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

 

You have any evidence that it were the relatives who put the blame on the government for the suicides, or were it the people who couldn't get elected and wanted to be in power anyway?

 

Well, that took about 20 seconds of my valuable? time.

[Baerboxer]

9 hours ago, darksidedog said:

A court searching for the truth, should want to examine all the facts and all the evidence. If Yinglucks team felt it important to physically see the warehouses, they undoubtedly had a reason for that. One has to suspect given the courts refusal that the verdict is a foregone conclusion and one that does not bode well for the former PM.

 

Yeah right. Courts do it all the time. Busing loads of people all over the place to see things - not.

 

Please explain how visiting a warehouse explains how it's not negligence when you appoint yourself chair of a flagship scheme, one touted as self financing, and then never bother to attend and chair any or the meetings?

 

Just more pure theater where the puppet but accomplished actress to turn up to be applauded by the rented mob; and of course they would choose which warehouses.

 

Do you think they'd choose the ones involved in the fake G2G deals?

[Baerboxer]

11 minutes ago, robblok said:

Mate, I have said a few times that I want the junta to hold elections, but that does not mean I excuse YL for what she did. You seem to connect it all together.. your far too black and white.. or red and yellow in this case.

I have seen enough of the junta too, but I am quite happy with the cases against the PTP bigshots in the fake G2G deals and other stuff like this.

 

Rob, don't feed the trolls mate. There have always been a plethora of posters, who come and go, who try to use smoke and mirrors to deflect from the crimes of the Shins.

 

Attack to Junta, Dems - but, but, but, they do it, they are worse etc etc

 

Try and turn it into a right wing / left wing argument,

 

Pretend the Shins are interested in real democracy and a fairer society for all rather than just rabid thieving

 

Denouncing any who dare post against the Shins as being Junta lovers, fascist, anti democracy etc,

 

And the old favorite claiming Thaksin is totally innocent of everything ever, never ever done anything wrong. All politically motivated :-) 555!

 

 

[Chris Lawrence]

28 minutes ago, robblok said:

I have no problem with you or anyone else around here.. just heated debate. For me that is all fun and games. 

 

I think I am probably 10x more liberal then you on the drug front being from the Netherlands and all. 

 

You are right its no exact science.. right now the last figure I saw was under 200 billion. Still that is the same amount as the health budget for a whole year. 

 

What YL is doing is trying to stall it and hope that if she ever gets in power again she can make it go away or move even slower. The last thing she wants is to have this play out under a junta when she has no power of influence. That is how they all play yellow and red. Stalling is the standard way to work here. 

I would do exactly the same if I were here, however now I am against here and I would want to see her go down for it. Not only her, but I like this to be a case that would be used to enable other cases too where politicians flaunt the law. I would like to see far more punishment on corruption and the likes. I don't really care if its army or Democrats or whoever.. I want them all punished. I don't join the club that says.. they are not getting punished so we should not be punished either. If that was how it worked it would even be worse here.

Rob, I advocated for one of the first injecting rooms in NSW to be in my area. I was the first person appointed as a dedicated Hep C worker in my area health and Australia. I worked the Beats. Got a few into rehab via street work. I surveyed injecting rooms in NSW. Founding member of Hepatitis Australia. Completed needs survey's for HIV suffers and significant others. I locked heads with people in the Health Area, some I let them know they had toes. 

 

I don't know Rob, that is just a bit of what I did on the street. I can also talk about setting up rehabs.

 

But everyone deserves a go

 

Again agree totally on punishment for wrong doers in our community. But they deserve their day in court and as the case is use all means to defend themselves.

 

I know that the two lads from Burma would have liked a better defence. How sad is that.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Chris Lawrence

[LannaGuy]

40 minutes ago, ramrod711 said:

 

Well, that took about 20 seconds of my valuable? time.

And you will be aware, will you not, that the yellow banks would not lend to the YL government to pay said farmers BUT the nano-second the Junta got in  "suddenly" the coffers were full of coin and open  

[halloween]

9 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

And you will be aware, will you not, that the yellow banks would not lend to the YL government to pay said farmers BUT the nano-second the Junta got in  "suddenly" the coffers were full of coin and open  

Almost right. Banks could not lend to the YL government after it resigned, as caretaker governments have no right to increase borrowing.

 

But it's a favourite red lie, dragged out as often as possible.

[ramrod711]

8 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

And you will be aware, will you not, that the yellow banks would not lend to the YL government to pay said farmers BUT the nano-second the Junta got in  "suddenly" the coffers were full of coin and open  

I would love to have you as my banker although I wouldn't want to invest in the bank. I come to you and ask for a loan after losing billions, displaying an appalling lack of responsibility and management skills and as chairperson and Prime Minister failed to chair a meeting, and you would grant me a loan. You should be fired.

[Smarter Than You]

4 minutes ago, halloween said:

Almost right. Banks could not lend to the YL government after it resigned, as caretaker governments have no right to increase borrowing.

 

But it's a favourite red lie, dragged out as often as possible.

So nothing to do with this then:

 

PDRC leader Suthep warns banks against rice loans to government ...

 

One side trying to pay farmers, other side trying to prevent farmers being payed.

Guess we know who's really to blame for the suicides eh?

Edited June 30, 2017 by Smarter Than You

[ramrod711]

8 hours ago, Chris Lawrence said:

Where is the evidence of this 500 billion baht being loss via the rice scheme? In fact where are any of the figures audited and documented?

https://madurasthoughts.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/thailands-rice-scheme-for-dummies-how-the-government-effectively-committed-suicide/