Is this a business opportunity in Issan?

[MarcIssan]

I have lived in Udon for 15 months now (retired for USA) and am just starting to build a house 16 km out of town toward Nong Bua Lamphu.  During the process of getting the land prepared and the designs done I am baffled by how hard it is to get answers, get workers, get materials, and get things done in a timely manner. Fortunately I found a builder from the UK to actually build the house and manage the project otherwise if I had to deal with a Thai builder I'd probably rent instead of build.  After the house is done, then comes the landscaping, planters, irrigation, ponds, fencing, for which I am responsible.

 

Anyway, I'm going to buy a mini excavator and  power auger and either a trenching bucket or a hydraulic trenching implement....yeah I know it's kind of nuts....but when I want to get stuff done I don't like waiting for others and if they are Thai workers I'd probably have to stand over then to assure they do it right anyway....so I may as well do it myself.

 

So here is the question...is their a need for this kind of work...digging, trenching, irrigation systems, post drilling, fence building, etc in Issan where I can make a small business of it?  I do have a hard working brother in law who I'd like to help in the process and make some extra baht for myself too.  

 

So aside from the comments likely to follow about helping family in business, family members stealing money or whatever.... which I am well aware of, do you see a need in your area..or have you looked for or hired someone for this kind of work in the past?  I know a fair bit about irrigation systems and once my house is done I'll have the tools for grading, post hole drilling, fence building,  trenching for underground wiring and water movement, and the skills for below ground automatic irrigation systems.  I use CAD to design everything to eliminate the guesswork.

 

If there is any reason to keep the equipment once I am done with it, great...otherwise I'll just sell it off.  I have a Kubota L4508 my BIL used when we farmed our 120 Rai (we lease out the land now) which I kept and from time to time it comes in handy.  When I need a tractor...I have a tractor!  

 

Thanks for your comments.  If you have experience in doing this work your guidance is appreciated.

 

 

[dotpoom]

I find a lot of people like to complain about Thai workmanship....probably with some cause in a number of cases. It has been my experience however that there are as many excellent workmen as there are bad ones....bit like at home really?

PS....would you get a workpermit for that type of work.....don't know a lot about these things but seems like work Thai people can do?

Edited July 3, 2017 by dotpoom

[swissie]

Dear OP. Seems to me, you have done a lot of "leaping before looking" already. Now, on the verge of starting a commercial enterprise, your are alredy knee-deep in the "work-permit/Thai-partnership jungle".

Thai-Law is clear about this: "Whatever a Thai-National can do, a foreighner is not allowed to do". (Commercially). Period!
Violators can be fined heavily (up to 100'000 Bht and/or imprisonement of up to 5 years.) Unless you are involved in rocket-science or astro-physics, your chances of securing a work-permit are practically zero.

Instead of contemplating Business-Concepts, at this point, why not familiarize yourself beforehand with the "Law(s) of the land"?
Cheers.

[Tony125]

You asked is this a business opurtunity in Issan----no. Others with more knowledge may come on to answer your question but you seem to have no clue to the requirements of working (getting a work permit/opening a business in Thailand. Most occupations are forbidden for farangs to work.if a Thai person can do the job. Violate the law and you will be deported.

 

http://www.mol.go.th/en/content/page/6347     Jobs permitted /not permitted for foreigners

[1FinickyOne]

If you have never been a business owner before, it is mostly dealing with problems - problems with workers, problems with customers, and unexpected situations... 

 

You mentioned being baffled and I guess somewhat annoyed with your current situation, enough so to go to great expense buying equipment... being in business will exponentially increase your problems... relax and retire.

[farmerjo]

Start with going to the retail hardware shops that sell what you would be installing,pvc pipe,sprinklers, cement posts, bricks etc.

See if they have or are looking for contractors with the right equipment and labour.Or a trip to the local Amphur to see what contracts are up for tender.

Otherwise it would probably mean setting the family up in that kind of business(selling the product) with the installation side as an extra.

 

[bangkokairportlink]

Who cares a work permit when he won't be the one doing the job. He just supply his brain and the machines. A Thai will do the work.

But I think many companies offer this kind of work already ?

But if you have the machine already, why not doing it if it costs you nothing more !

[KK-Mike]

I was trying to help brother in law the same as you mentioned.  I was not

trying to start a business for myself and BIL though.  I bought him (the family)

a reconditioned fairly large Ford Tractor, paid 660,000 THB.  Had a legal contract

made up and signed for repayment as he put the tractor to work.  Over. the past

6 years I have received about 280,000 THB in payments.  BIL was / is a skilled

operator and has kept the tractor in good working order.  Uses the money earned

to have a little better life style, still poor but a little better than a poor rice farmer

which he and family have always been.  I don't mention the money any longer as it

was my mistake to buy the tractor not BIL for wanting a little better life.

I mentioned repossing the tractor and met with fierce resistance from wife and

her mom.  So I dropped that idea.

My advice is not to invest any money in Thailand that you can not walk away from

with out crying about.

You want to have a builder from U.K. to build house, you want to bypass using

Thai local labor.  In my humble opinion you are creating a problem with locals

and don't have a house yet.  Bad idea!

You piss off the locals enough and one day when you return home it won't be livable.

I understand everything you said about the efficiency and timelessness of thais,

this is Thailand and that's just the way it is.  I knew a U.K. man in Thailand 

that built a house in a village near a large city, hated using Thai labor, always

bitched about Thai labor.  Finished the house, built a 2 meter high block fence 

around the house and continued to not get along with neighbors.  One night

the locals while partying and drinking, came over the wall, pulled the man out

of the house and beat him almost to death, the only reason they stopped was

the Thai wife's mon and dad from the village stopped the death stomp.

After 12+ years I have learned that we are a foreigner in a foreign land and we

must accept the Thailand way of life or leave.

must get along or leave.

[Destiny1990]

I personally more impressed with Thai workers then farangs.

Farangs often brag but come up with poor results.Thais hardly talk but do a good job.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Destiny1990

[Brunolem]

The work permit is not the issue here, and neither is the risk of being beaten to death.

I have been living in a village in Isaan for a long time and have seen a lot of construction done around.

Most of the time, the future owners have little or not enough money and they actually wish for the construction to go slow.

I have seen, and still do, many houses built over many...years!

Except for a tiny minority, people in Isaan are not in a hurry, on the contrary...and the reason is generally money, or rather the lack of it.

Thus construction workers have become accustomed to a very slow pace of doing things.

If you were operating a construction business in the Western way, chances are that you would be too expensive and have a lot of trouble to get paid.

When it comes to the quality of the work done by the locals, there is only one way to deal with that: you have to be on site at all times!

And I am not the one saying this, wealthy Thais with nice houses will tell you that...just ask them "but how did you manage to build such a nice house?". I have done it and this was their answer.

As soon as you turn your back, things start to unravel.

The most difficult part will probably be the painting...I have yet to find a decent painter...thus I have done this part myself, many times...and no, you don't need a work permit to paint your own house since you are not making any money out of it.

 

[bazza73]

The work permit issue is quite difficult to overcome.

 

I have had two experiences with building in Chiang Rai. The first was a 2 BR house through a company, passable , nothing special. The second was through relations of my Thai GF, a 36 sqm guesthouse. I was very pleasantly surprised by the quality of the workmanship - went over budget, but 300,000 baht for 36 sqm is very cheap. Everything done by manual labor, no machinery.

I'd agree with other posters having a falang build a house with falang supervision in a Thai village would ruffle quite a few feathers.

[SweatySock]

When I had my house built in rural Issan, many years ago, I had a signed and witnessed contract with the builder. This contract clearly stipulated staged payments. As each milestone was reached, a payment was made. I had no issues with slow or poor workmanship as I was on-site everyday.

 

If you are unhappy with either progress or workmanship, used the staged payment process, it worked for me.

[chickenrunCM]

12 hours ago, swissie said:

Dear OP. Seems to me, you have done a lot of "leaping before looking" already. Now, on the verge of starting a commercial enterprise, your are alredy knee-deep in the "work-permit/Thai-partnership jungle".

Thai-Law is clear about this: "Whatever a Thai-National can do, a foreighner is not allowed to do". (Commercially). Period!
Violators can be fined heavily (up to 100'000 Bht and/or imprisonement of up to 5 years.) Unless you are involved in rocket-science or astro-physics, your chances of securing a work-permit are practically zero.

Instead of contemplating Business-Concepts, at this point, why not familiarize yourself beforehand with the "Law(s) of the land"?
Cheers.

a thai can do every work, this is not a reason for not getting a work permitt

[puchooay]

21 minutes ago, chickenrunCM said:

a thai can do every work, this is not a reason for not getting a work permitt

Wrong. There is a list, issued by the Labour department, that stipulates jobs that cannot be done br foreigners because they can be done by Thais. 

[rickudon]

I'm not a DIY enthusiast and no nothing about building. Have seen quite a bit of building work done on my families land and neighbouring plots over the last 7 years. My observations are -

 

1. Most workers will work hard most of the time. Try labouring 8 hours a day in the hot sun and humidity, and see how well you cope with it. Most workers are not formally trained, just learned 'on the job'.Unfortunately standards are different to what we were used to. Due to the nature of their work, many do like to drink. Unfortunately a Lao khao session can quickly get out of hand and workers will have to take a couple days off. Just accept that as normal. Better to loose a couple of days work than have it done by a worker with a bad hangover.

 

2. Due to the lack of theoretical and modern training, results are different. Also they are often not aware of modern materials and techniques. They also lack many tools. Given these limitations, the results are actually not that bad. Building practices in the more rural areas have changed a lot in the last 30 years, and as a result the practical experience hasn't always caught up. Examples are that old wooden framed houses with limited block walling didn't need much in the way of foundations, modern buildings are a lot heavier and less flexible, experience on foundation building hasn't always caught up - it looks great when the house is finished, but the problems come sometimes years later.

 

3, Houses here are not seen as things which might last for centuries like back home. A house 40 years old is 'old' and may be just demolished and rebuilt. So longevity isn't really thought of.

 

4. Piped water, sinks and hand basins, indoor toilets are recent adoptions - i know, they hardly existed in my families house 7 years ago. As a result, these improvements may superficially look good but do not have the generations of experience at installation as in the west. Expect fundamental design flaws. Can be messy when dealing with poorly designed toilets and septic tanks. Live with this or take great care with there design and installation, because the workers will not understand why it needs to be different.

 

5. This is a tropical environment. Structures do degrade faster, and alas, quality of many materials and fittings are worse than in the west. So plan for easy maintenance rather than permanence.

 

Just my opinions. Overall i am reasonably happy with work i have had done - and the costs much lower than in the west. 

[Tony125]

14 hours ago, bangkokairportlink said:

Who cares a work permit when he won't be the one doing the job. He just supply his brain and the machines. A Thai will do the work.

But I think many companies offer this kind of work already ?

But if you have the machine already, why not doing it if it costs you nothing more !

Did you read the title of the post ? 

"Is this a business opportunity in Issan?" He wrote he wanted to buy the eqipment and do the work himself to build his own house. Didn't want to stand around all day trying to tell Thai workers what to do. Then keep the equipment and open a business building houses not supevising Thai to do the job and make aa little money for himself. If that was not the plan why bother buying equipment the Thai contractors would have their own. He can not do that  , from labor ministry:  http://www.mol.go.th/en/content/page/6347    Jobs permitted /not permitted for foreigners

Edited July 4, 2017 by Tony125
spelling

[MarcIssan]

Ok thanks all for your comments.

 

As for the work permits, I planned on having my wife own the company, I'll own the equipment and she can either keep our share of the money we make or pay me equipment rents either way as it all goes into the same account.  My role will be that of consultant looking into opportunities, directing them in business development to locals while I reach out to farangs via a website I plan to launch.  Google says over 90% of all buying decisions begin with an internet search though I suspect Thais use more word of mouth.  But my strength is offering a service to English speaking people who have read about the many problems in dealing we Thais and want an alternative.  I agree not all are bad but there are many many complaints to consider plus the language barrier if the buyer does not speak Thai.  I for one would not consider using my wife as translator since she does not know how to describe the work I am expecting and I don't want to strain my marriage by putting her in that position.

 

But investigating all about farang business ownership and work permits before finding out if there is a need or demand for this service seems like the cart before the horse.

 

As for experience, I have owned several companies in America and still own 2 of them now (business consulting and real estate/fix and flip) and know all the problems associated with such work.  I am a small business consultant who has helped over 100 others research, plan for, and launch their own brand of business so I know the ropes.  Much of the basic process is the same no matter what country is involved and I always begin with a market study and survey...thus my questions to all of you regarding the NEED/DEMAND as you see it.  The process of how to do it is a matter of detail that will not change the NEED/DEMAND and if that does not exist, knowing the process to start a company will not create the demand if none exists.  So thanks for your comments to this point.

 

Regarding my house build...I actually didn't ask for comments regarding that but offered the story as a prelude explaining why I might start an excavation company in the first place.  The UK builder uses his own Thai workers.  But regardless of whether he does or does not,  all the other families  who live along the soi are relatives of my wife and couldn't care less who builds my house, they just want to use the pool!  I have seen 4-5 houses both completed and under way from this builder and talked to the owners of such homes and am well satisfied of his qualifications.  I come from a family of construction workers/contractors and know good from bad, black from white, plumbing, electrical, etc and have designed my own houses before using CAD.  I am no stranger to the process of construction but not too familiar with Thai practices.  So I have hired him to take care of the headaches and gladly pay his profit in exchange for not having to deal with it myself.

 

So I have read your comments most of which looked at the negative side of my work-in-progress plan but do you see anything positive about it?  Mainly I am interested in whether in your personal opinion there is a demand in your area and if you don't know...that is OK too.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by MarcIssan

[Destiny1990]

45 minutes ago, MarcIssan said:

Ok thanks all for your comments.

 

As for the work permits, I planned on having my wife own the company, I'll own the equipment and she can either keep our share of the money we make or pay me equipment rents either way as it all goes into the same account.  My role will be that of consultant looking into opportunities, directing them in business development to locals while I reach out to farangs via a website I plan to launch.  Google says over 90% of all buying decisions begin with an internet search though I suspect Thais use more word of mouth.  But my strength is offering a service to English speaking people who have read about the many problems in dealing we Thais and want an alternative.  I agree not all are bad but there are many many complaints to consider plus the language barrier if the buyer does not speak Thai.  I for one would not consider using my wife as translator since she does not know how to describe the work I am expecting and I don't want to strain my marriage by putting her in that position.

 

But investigating all about farang business ownership and work permits before finding out if there is a need or demand for this service seems like the cart before the horse.

 

As for experience, I have owned several companies in America and still own 2 of them now (business consulting and real estate/fix and flip) and know all the problems associated with such work.  I am a small business consultant who has helped over 100 others research, plan for, and launch their own brand of business so I know the ropes.  Much of the basic process is the same no matter what country is involved and I always begin with a market study and survey...thus my questions to all of you regarding the NEED/DEMAND as you see it.  The process of how to do it is a matter of detail that will not change the NEED/DEMAND and if that does not exist, knowing the process to start a company will not create the demand if none exists.  So thanks for your comments to this point.

 

Regarding my house build...I actually didn't ask for comments regarding that but offered the story as a prelude explaining why I might start an excavation company in the first place.  The UK builder uses his own Thai workers.  But regardless of whether he does or does not,  all the other families  who live along the soi are relatives of my wife and couldn't care less who builds my house, they just want to use the pool!  I have seen 4-5 houses both completed and under way from this builder and talked to the owners of such homes and am well satisfied of his qualifications.  I come from a family of construction workers/contractors and know good from bad, black from white, plumbing, electrical, etc and have designed my own houses before using CAD.  I am no stranger to the process of construction but not too familiar with Thai practices.  So I have hired him to take care of the headaches and gladly pay his profit in exchange for not having to deal with it myself.

 

So I have read your comments most of which looked at the negative side of my work-in-progress plan but do you see anything positive about it?  Mainly I am interested in whether in your personal opinion there is a demand in your area and if you don't know...that is OK too.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

 

Can we get an update from u in about 12 months time.

[MarcIssan]

Sure.  I'm going to buy the equipment anyway and  I'll know in just a few months time whether I'm going to start the company.  

 

In 12 months I'll know if it will work out and if not I can either keep the toys or sell them off.

 

Thanks

[bangkokairportlink]

2 hours ago, MarcIssan said:

Sure.  I'm going to buy the equipment anyway and  I'll know in just a few months time whether I'm going to start the company.  

 

In 12 months I'll know if it will work out and if not I can either keep the toys or sell them off.

 

Thanks

 

If you need to buy, it means that the farang builder does not own the machine. So why not working with him and let him use the machine for his future jobs ?

 

 

 

[MarcIssan]

Good point about working with my UK contractor.  I asked him once why he doesn't user a backhoe or excavator and he said transporting it is one issue, the cost is another, and teaching someone to use and care for it was the third.  Having a bunch of workers dig by hand costs him less than the equipment would he stated.  Yes, I thought of working with him when he is in the area but he goes as far as Buriram and that might be a bit far for a day's worth of digging.  Thanks for the thought.  My other idea is to contact the Tessabon (I'm not sure if I spelled this correctly) but my wife said they run all the water lines to new houses.  Well, they do a poor job of it because the line in front of my plot is only 3-4 inches deep and I've already dug it up and mangled it into pieces once already with the plow.  They could use our help but can they pay for it...not sure.  My wife has an uncle there who is high up in the ranks so we have an inside track if there is anything there.  I also have a friend who works in the Mayor's office in Udon so hopefully that can result in some work.  Plus I just paid PEA 21,000 bt to install 8 poles for power and I'm sure they contracted that work out.  Maybe we can grab a few of those jobs too.  Thanks again for your thoughts.

[sometimewoodworker]

12 hours ago, MarcIssan said:

Sure.  I'm going to buy the equipment anyway and  I'll know in just a few months time whether I'm going to start the company.  

 

In 12 months I'll know if it will work out and if not I can either keep the toys or sell them off.

 

Thanks

I would think that you may not have a good business opportunity as there are already Thai companies who do equipment rental, so you might be better advised to check them out before buying. 

Edited July 4, 2017 by sometimewoodworker

[1SteveC]

On 7/3/2017 at 9:48 PM, swissie said:

Dear OP. Seems to me, you have done a lot of "leaping before looking" already. Now, on the verge of starting a commercial enterprise, your are alredy knee-deep in the "work-permit/Thai-partnership jungle".

Thai-Law is clear about this: "Whatever a Thai-National can do, a foreighner is not allowed to do". (Commercially). Period!
Violators can be fined heavily (up to 100'000 Bht and/or imprisonement of up to 5 years.) Unless you are involved in rocket-science or astro-physics, your chances of securing a work-permit are practically zero.

Instead of contemplating Business-Concepts, at this point, why not familiarize yourself beforehand with the "Law(s) of the land"?
Cheers.

 

Nowhere in Thai law does it say this - "Thai-Law is clear about this: "Whatever a Thai-National can do, a foreighner is not allowed to do".", people keep perpetuating this myth.

 

There is a finite list of prohibited occupations, that is all.

[1SteveC]

6 hours ago, MarcIssan said:

I asked him once why he doesn't user a backhoe or excavator and he said transporting it is one issue, the cost is another, and teaching someone to use and care for it was the third.  Having a bunch of workers dig by hand costs him less than the equipment would he stated.

 

Surely this is all you need to know - NO it is not a viable business opportunity, you have been told by someone already in a similar business.

[Brunolem]

It seems that your market would be limited to foreigners looking to build a house for themselves and their family.

Thais would most probably not require your services because:

1. You would be too expensive...even if that was not true, they would assume so

2. You would not be...well...Thai

I am not convinced that there is a significant market of foreigners building their homes and willing to use a foreigner managed company for that.

Then, there would be the little issue of recruitment to deal with...good luck with that!

It is extremely difficult to recruit reliable workers, especially in Isaan...not that they do a bad job, but they are not disciplined at all...you never know whether they gonna show up for work.

In rice harvest season, for example, they will go missing for weeks...more generally, they come up with a quasi infinite number of reasons to skip a day, or more, of work, because...something came up!

[Destiny1990]

My bet is u want to move out within 6 months time from your isarn palace because u will be unable to fit in.Better rent these machines so u easier can relocate.are u make any waterslides in ur pool?

[MarcIssan]

Well I live in Issan now and routinely head to the village for BBQ with family, big Monk days,  etc.  I fit in just fine.  Udon is only 16km away so when I get bored I have a short drive / ride to town.

 

No waterslides...the deepest end is 1.7m.

[Destiny1990]

6 hours ago, MarcIssan said:

Well I live in Issan now and routinely head to the village for BBQ with family, big Monk days,  etc.  I fit in just fine.  Udon is only 16km away so when I get bored I have a short drive / ride to town.

 

No waterslides...the deepest end is 1.7m.

Living can be ok but having a business there i fear it will going to effect your blood pressure and your overall wellbeing however wishing u the best of luck.Myself would just chill at your pool?With friends food and beverages.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Destiny1990

[NanLaew]

22 hours ago, MarcIssan said:

Well I live in Issan now and routinely head to the village for BBQ with family, big Monk days,  etc.  I fit in just fine.  Udon is only 16km away so when I get bored I have a short drive / ride to town.

 

No waterslides...the deepest end is 1.7m.

If you want to buy the equipment needed to do these jobs during construction, go ahead but don't count on there being much demand for a 'farang owned' equipment provider after the fact. I think there are fewer foreigners building their own mansions these days as the local housing market has come on in leaps and bounds, especially around Udon. One can pick up a new design, 3-bed/2-bath in a new village outside the ringroad for under 3 million these days which beats the palaver of filling land, boundary walls, wells, sealed roads and power poles from the get go.

 

If your CAD skills are good, I would focus on that as a hobby with possibly a bit of a commercial upside. Does you UK (managed? owned?) building contractor do CAD work himself or just has the ability to work from third-party drawings? Could be a tie-in there and since he appears to cover a larger footprint in Isaan, he may have some ideas where there are opportunities for fellow stately home builders in the region.

 

Good luck, hope it all works out. Maybe see you in town when its all settled.

[MarcIssan]

Thanks. Well my CAD skills get me by but by no means an expert, or novice...just basics..enough to get my work done.  

 

I'll take it one step at a time. First is to get the equipment necessary to do my part of the house building. Grading and hole boring mostly. I'm looking into doing my own precast fence and precast mold making and concrete stamping etc then see where I am on the business ides. By the time I'm 70 or 71, my interest may just be that of retirement and travel.

 

By the way I head in to town once a week for English conversation and cold beer...let's meet one day soon.

 

Thanks for your comment.