How to make a Grand Filano go faster and more reactive.

[canerandagio]

Hi,

 

A friend of mine has a Grand Filano. It's beautiful as hell but it's not greatly reactive, it seems slow when starting, and a bit reluctant to pick up speed. A Yamaha XT or even a scoopy are more reactive. There is nothing wrong with the bike, but is it possible to make it more reactive by changing exhaust or doing some other trick?

If yes, where and what are the costs and implications please?

 

Thanks,

straydog

[Pdaz]

Tie it to the back of a Fortuna ?

[Nickymaster]

Turbo?

 

 

[moose7117]

trade it on a z900.

[Nickymaster]

Maybe it has larger wheels and is heavier than a Scoopy or Yamaha XT?

[Kwasaki]

16 hours ago, canerandagio said:

There is nothing wrong with the bike,

There obliviously is something wrong with fueling system on the scooter. 

[Henryford]

My tgf has a Grand Filano and it's fine in terms of performance for a 125cc scooter. If you want something faster you need a different bike, a 155cc Aerox or NMAX etc.

[petermik]

Put some stripes down each side and a turbo sticker on the front,cheap and highly affective...worked a treat on my Morris Marina.............

[Henryford]

Just now, petermik said:

Put some stripes down each side and a turbo sticker on the front,cheap and highly affective...worked a treat on my Morris Marina.............

The blue/red Grand Filanos already have go faster stripes on the side, should be enough for most boy racers.

[petermik]

7 hours ago, Henryford said:

The blue/red Grand Filanos already have go faster stripes on the side, should be enough for most boy racers.

The more stripes you have the faster it goes..............

[canerandagio]

Is there a way to modify it like opening up the injections or changing gears? Sometimes there are very fast bikes around that are obviously modified. I don't think there is anything wrong with the bike. I myself tried a scoopy and a rented filano and there was a significant difference, beyond the lightweght factor.

 

[eisfeld]

3 hours ago, canerandagio said:

Is there a way to modify it like opening up the injections or changing gears?

Yup, maybe you can punch some holes in the airbox, add one more fuel injector and drop some teeth from the sprocket, I heard that the latter works wonders with these CVT scooters.

[jay1980]

I think you can change the Variator to make a CVT scooter accelerate faster

[Damrongsak]

Here's a bit of info on variators:  http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?8960-Variator-roller-weights-and-contra-spring-mechanics-for-dummies!-Learn-how-it-works

[VocalNeal]

On 9/15/2017 at 5:54 PM, canerandagio said:

There is nothing wrong with the bike, but is it possible to make it more reactive by changing exhaust or doing some other trick?

The absolute dog's danglies would be a J Costa variator but sadly the Yamaha engines made in Asia are not the same as European ones so there isn't one. 

 

However you can make some Improvement by changing the CVT weights, quite easy. May even be possible using stock parts I.E. Nuovo 135 comes with 11g weights and a newer Nuovo SX125 comes with 10.5g so there can be some cheap improvement to a 135 by simply using parts from a 125.

 

Go to Yamaha and buy a set/packet of new CVT weights for a Grand Filano then send me a PM and tell me the weight written on the packet and the approx size when measured with a rule. For reference Nuovo 135 and SX 125 are 20mm diameter and 10mm wide.

 

When you have the variator sorted you can change the exhaust, which will give more top end if you want it.

Edited September 17, 2017 by VocalNeal

[canerandagio]

Thanks... will making the changes to the variator affect consumption? Significantly?

 

Cheers,

straydog

[VocalNeal]

You might get better fuel economy but it depends on how you ride. 

[papa al]

Proportionally.

 

√ air filter.

[canerandagio]

3 minutes ago, papa al said:

Proportionally.

 

√ air filter.

Did you mean to say something about air filter? :)

[Techno Viking]

can get a 155cc big bore kit for them.

 

[VocalNeal]

43 minutes ago, papa al said:

Proportionally.

 

√ air filter.

 

I'm not a Yamaha expert but each bike has different properties. On a Honda PCX as an example the filter area is much larger then the inlet for which I made a plaster cast to accurately measure it. But yes on a PCX as an example removing the little intake widget on the front of the airbox makes a small difference.

 

We are talking here about low speed pickup which will not be at maximum rpm so airflow with a new std filter should be OK. 

 

Proportionally? Not sure whether this is cost or performance but on a stock scooter one will get the most instant extra performance by tweaking/changing the variator.

IE. Stock PCX in Asia comes with something like 18g weights whereas in Europe they are more like 15g so simply changing the weights for lighter stock weights from Honda will give better pickup for a European riding the scooter instead of an Asian.  

 

Quote

can get a 155cc big bore kit for them.

The older Yamaha scooters can be taken out to 300cc!  

Edited September 17, 2017 by VocalNeal

[papa al]

1 hour ago, canerandagio said:

Did you mean to say something about air filter? :)

√ it.

 

If change variator for more power the economy goes down accordingly.

Edited September 17, 2017 by papa al

[VocalNeal]

Their is no "extra" power as such ! It simply allows the engine to make the most of the power it is already capable of and uses it in a more performance oriented way. If done correctly it can lower the cruising rpm and give better or the same fuel economy as stock.

 

Any extra fuel consumed as a result of correct variator mods or an aftermarket variator usually results from the rider being more spirited and using the extra performance available. Not from the actually modification itself. Although agreed a modified variator does enable the rider to use more fuel than maybe he/she could before, but it is the rider's choice.  If the rider roars away from the lights with better acceleration yes it will use more fuel. But if the rider accelerates away from the lights at the same rate as stock then the consumption is the same as stock and the rpm at cruise can be 500 rpm or so less than for the same speed stock. It is the same as riding a manual bike sedately or with spirit.

 

 

 

[AllanB]

These bikes are tuned (designed) for economy, so there should be a way to tweak things, by the bumbshit comments so far, perhaps you are on the wrong forum.

 

This year we bought two new bikes a Grand Filano 125 and a Vespa GTS125, the Vespa is much faster and more responsive, despite being a lot heavier mainly due to it's steel construction. Having done the MHS loop on the Filano and Torre Peak in Portugal on the Vespa, the comparison is stark.

 

We also have a couple of old 110 Finos which are faster, but MUCH thirstier.

 

I think you need to spend some time on Google.

 

...sorry I didn't read page two where the comments got better.

 

Also how many km have you done, it may loosen up.

Edited September 17, 2017 by AllanB

[VocalNeal]

1 hour ago, AllanB said:

These bikes are tuned (designed) for economy, so there should be a way to tweak things,

 

Exactly. For instance a Vespa LX uses 18.7g weights and a GTS 125 uses 17g weights in their respective variators. the GTS makes more power higher up the LX makes more torque lower down. Obviously they are not the only differences but.. 

 

The simplest way to solve the OP's friends low down pickup speed is to change the variator weights. Lower weight and different shape. If he ever gets back to me with the size and weight of the stock weights I will tell you what i tell him since you also have a Filano

 

Nice bike BTW the GTS.  I used to hang out on ModernVespa but haven't been there for a few years.

 

[leonidpattayski]

Grand filano is just not for going fast, It is bulky scooter with narrow and small wheels, not much stability and handling. The advantage of this bike is big storage. 

[AllanB]

7 hours ago, leonidpattayski said:

Grand filano is just not for going fast, It is bulky scooter with narrow and small wheels, not much stability and handling. The advantage of this bike is big storage. 

I would agree with that, we did Nan province and ended up chasing a Forza along a back road at 90/95kph, I was shitting bricks the whole time. I think what you could get is a better pick up, my Vespa would out accelerate most vehicle away from the lights, so altering the variator  characteristics for starters would make sense to me. 

 

When you have sorted the OP's out Vocal, I am next. Soften the blow of losing the Vespa for 6 months.

 

Fun without certain death is the way to go!!!

Edited September 17, 2017 by AllanB

[M1Tanker]

Likit Racing might be of some assistance.

 

https://www.likitracingshop.com/15663524/ชามซิ่ง-grand-filano

 

https://www.facebook.com/likitracing/

[VocalNeal]

Sorry M1 this is traditional Asian BS. I doubt the variator in the kit shown has different ramp angle or pulley angle than stock. So is essentially not worth any money. It has 11g weights and 12g weight mixed, at least the photo. Whoever makes it can't even be bothered to make 11.5 gm weights. 

 

Granted my solution doesn't include any different actual sheaves, as i am trying to keep it simple. But at least it is an honest one.

[M1Tanker]

VocalNeal, Thanks and noted.

 

I believe that the use of stripes, decals, and stickers has already been discussed.  Changing the weights in the scooter variator has also been discussed.

 

The following are some of my observations, while here in Thailand, that can also affect acceleration and speed.  In Thailand acceleration and speed can be affected by making changes to the following:

• The Scooter
• Riding technique
• Riding tactics

 

1. The scooter.

 

Most performance enhancements are realized when reducing mass as well as the drag coefficient (Cd).  Acceleration (a) is a function of force (F) divided by mass (m). One form of this formula is a = F/m.  By decreasing mass (m), acceleration (a) will increase. The drag coefficient (Cd) is typically lowered by decreasing surface area. By decreasing the drag coefficient improved acceleration and speed can be realized.

 

Here is a list of typical modifications.

• Remove both mirrors.  The scooter manufacturers, for the Thai market, have installed mirrors for the purpose of personal grooming.  For those interested in improved performance, they are removed.  This lowers the mass of the scooter as well as decreasing the surface area, thereby improving the drag coefficient. Another benefit of removing the mirrors is that it improves the rider’s concentration.  The rider is no longer distracted by objects appearing in his mirrors.
• Replace the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) wheels and tires.  This modification is achieved by replacing the OEM wheel/tire combination with very narrow aftermarket wheels and tires.  Typically this lowers mass because the aftermarket wheels are lighter and the tires are a thin walled high performance bias ply. This narrow combination also decreases the surface area, lowering the drag coefficient.  Another benefit of the narrow wheel/tire combination is lowered rolling resistance.
• Disconnect the lights.  Apparently, scooter electrics in Thailand operate differently than in other regions of the world.  The headlight, taillight, and turn indicator lights rob the engine of power. If one is uncomfortable working on vehicle electronics that is understandable. Just wait for a bulb failure to realize a performance increase. Do not replace the failed bulb in order to maintain the improved performance.
• Get a louder exhaust system.  Apparently through years of automotive engineering research and testing, Thai engineers have discovered that testing is unnecessary.  It has been determined that improved engine performance is proportional to the increased decibel level of an aftermarket exhaust system.  There is no longer a need to test the vehicle on a rolling road dynamometer.  The louder the exhaust system, the greater the improvement in acceleration and speed. There will be no impact on fuel economy.

 

2. Riding technique.

 

Here are some proven Thai riding techniques as well as some changes to rider gear that may result in improved scooter performance.

• Keep your elbows locked to your sides and your arms/hands in a praying mantis position on the handle bars.  This is one of the simplest ways of decreasing the coefficient of drag.
• Keep your head down, fixed to the front, and your chin on your chest.  This also lowers the coefficient of drag.  It also aids the rider in not becoming distracted with any object in his peripheral vision.
• Do not wear any protective gear.  Getting rid of the helmet, armored jacket  and pants, gloves, proper footwear drastically lowers the mass.

 

3. Riding tactics.

 

These Thai riding tactics show greater benefits to speed rather than to acceleration.

• Do not slow or lift on the throttle when coming to intersections or changing lights. The traffic here in Thailand is severe and this tactic will enable the rider to more quickly arrive at his destination.
• Ride in between vehicles or vehicles and the curb without lifting off of the throttle.  Apparently it has been determined that the flow of air in between vehicles or between a vehicle and a curb is more laminar.  This laminar, non turbulent, flow of air is better for maintaining one’s speed.

 

Both of the aforementioned tactics allow for almost event free travel.

 

Summary.

 

These practices require further study as they do not appear to following automotive engineering practices of Europe, the USA, Japan, or South Korea.

 

Finally, I defer to other members who have been in Thailand longer for additional observations and conclusions.

Edited September 18, 2017 by M1Tanker