I was the victim of ATM fraud

[watcharacters]

 

 

The day after Christmas   (Dec. 26th)  someone (s)  went to an ATM and withdrew 30K twice.    They then tried twice more unsuccessfully  as my limit is set at 2,000 USD unless I request a higher limit by phoning the bank.

 

This potentially  impacts everyone on Thaivisa Forum  and everybody else on the planet that uses debit cards.

 

The big thing is the card was  in my wallet when this happened.    I can only guess someone  cloned the card but how the magnetic  strip on the back and the chip could be duplicated is beyond me.

 

I've requested of the bank that was used to provide whatever images they have for these withdrawals.

 

 

Has anyone  successfully requested a photo of  a fraudulent use of an ATM card in Thailand?

 

What steps did you  follow  please?

 

I went through a procedure today but didn't end up feeling I would finally be able to see  the ATM  photo of the person (s) who used my debit card information  without the card itself.

 

Time will tell and I will  keep my fingers crossed.

 

[Meljames]

It's called 'skimming'. Somebody puts a device in the ATM card slot that gathers your info. There are a few other methods too. Seems skimming is most common though. 

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Meljames

[lemonjelly]

Yes, your card was probably cloned and a discreetly placed camera recorded you entering your PIN number


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[saakura]

Have you ever given out your ATM pin number to a trusted person such as a gf or wife ?

[Rc2702]

You should immediately invest in a RFID wallet/card to prevent skimming but by sounds of it you were subjected to a skimming machine in an ATM with as mentioned; pinhole camera to mo it or your pin code data. The only other thing that i think it could be is a closer to home type theft.

[55Jay]

 

29 minutes ago, Rc2702 said:

You should immediately invest in a RFID wallet/card to prevent skimming but by sounds of it you were subjected to a skimming machine in an ATM with as mentioned; pinhole camera to mo it or your pin code data. The only other thing that i think it could be is a closer to home type theft.

All good, except the part about RFID wallet/card sleeves, which would provide no protection against skimming. 

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by 55Jay

[Rc2702]

Just now, 55Jay said:

 

All good, except the part about RFID wallet/card sleeves, which would provide no protection against skimming. 

 

I think your being technical in terms.

 

Skimming can happen by walking past someone and using a device to digitally steal data. An rfid wallet or card is built to protect against that.

 

The skimming term you speak of is more aligned to the card skimming practice as done at an ATM. 

 

Skimmers are not only for atms. 

 

Without the pin you can still rack up purchases onlìme. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[55Jay]

22 minutes ago, Rc2702 said:

I think your being technical in terms.

 

Skimming can happen by walking past someone and using a device to digitally steal data. An rfid wallet or card is built to protect against that.

 

The skimming term you speak of is more aligned to the card skimming practice as done at an ATM. 

 

Skimmers are not only for atms. 

 

Without the pin you can still rack up purchases onlìme.

Yes, you're right, and I was referring to ATM physical skimming, which is the most likely scenario based on what the OP said.

 

But if OP's card is not RFID enabled, an anti-RFID skimming sleeve isn't necessary.

 

My Mom got sucked in to buying one because she didn't know any better.  I inspected all her debit/credit cards, none were RFID. 

 

I'm not arguing with you, RFID card protectors have their place if you have RFID enabled cards.   I don't like the guy's "never happens" attitude in the linked article below.  If a person has RFID cards, then protecting them is prudent.  Me personally, would never have an RFID card.

 

https://www.csoonline.com/article/3199009/security/why-you-dont-need-an-rfid-blocking-wallet.html

Edited December 31, 2017 by 55Jay

[Rc2702]

Just now, 55Jay said:

Yes, you're right, and I was referring to ATM physical skimming, which is the most likely scenario based on what the OP said.

 

But if OP's card is not RFID enabled, an anti-RFID skimming sleeve isn't necessary.

 

My Mom got sucked in to buying one because she didn't know any better.  I inspected all her debit/credit cards, none were RFID. 

 

I'm not arguing with you, RFID card protectors have their place if you have RFID enabled cards.   I don't like the guy's "never happens" attitude in the linked article below.  If a person has RFID cards, then protecting them is prudent.  Me personally, would never have an RFID card.

• 
• 
• 
• 

https://www.csoonline.com/article/3199009/security/why-you-dont-need-an-rfid-blocking-wallet.html

Contactless cards are so normal now though and that is the more common term for what we are discussing. I have a wireless signal blocking passport cover. They were initially used to protect evidence from being manipulated digitally/remotely.

[Rhys]

Trust this all works out...vary your ATB withdraw locations?

 

[Andrew Dwyer]

Trust this all works out...vary your ATB withdraw locations?
 

Or use ATM’s outside the bank or more specifically not in remote locations where tampering is more likely .

[OJAS]

Happened to me twice with separate accounts, firstly with Krung Thai and then with Kasikorn in 2009 - the amount involved was 20,000 THB on each occasion. This led to my decision not to have any cards with my present Bangkok Bank account. Each time I need cash I make a transfer to the wife's account and send her down to the ATM to obtain it for me.

[poanoi]

3 hours ago, Rc2702 said:

I think your being technical in terms.

 

Skimming can happen by walking past someone and using a device to digitally steal data. An rfid wallet or card is built to protect against that.

 

The skimming term you speak of is more aligned to the card skimming practice as done at an ATM. 

 

Skimmers are not only for atms. 

 

Without the pin you can still rack up purchases onlìme. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not if any purchase require card reader to unlock the bank account for 1 hour

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, poanoi said:

not if any purchase require card reader to unlock the bank account for 1 hour

Or for that specific transaction.

[55Jay]

3 hours ago, Rc2702 said:

Contactless cards are so normal now though and that is the more common term for what we are discussing. I have a wireless signal blocking passport cover. They were initially used to protect evidence from being manipulated digitally/remotely.

Yes, I know what it is we are talking about. 

 

I don't think contactless pay points are that widespread in Thailand.  Bangkok maybe?  Dunno, don't spend much time there.  None where I live.

 

Good deal on the passport cover.

 

Anyway, my original and only point, which we've gotten far away from, was the advice to immediately invest in an RFID protective sleeve is mostly likely irrelevant in this case, and probably Thailand in general.... unless one has an RFID enabled card.

[Sapporillo]

I have a service enabled that sends me a text message immediately after a cash withdrawal or a purchase with a card reader, and it works really well, the message arrives every time within a minute. Of course this doesn't protect against anything, but at least I would know very quickly if someone had cloned my card and was out shopping with it. It's not cheap (50cents/message), but it gives me peace of mind, I can recommend it. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Sapporillo

[Rc2702]

Just now, 55Jay said:

Yes, I know what it is we are talking about. 

 

I don't think contactless pay points are that widespread in Thailand.  Bangkok maybe?  Dunno, don't spend much time there.  None where I live.

 

Good deal on the passport cover.

 

Anyway, my original and only point, which we've gotten far away from, was the advice to immediately invest in an RFID protective sleeve is mostly likely irrelevant in this case, and probably Thailand in general.... unless one has an RFID enabled card.

Contactless card. Extremely common amongat western countries and a lot of expats pull cash out the banks they bank with abroad here. I never use my Thai bank to pull cash from. Ever. I realise that may seem odd. Rainy day.

[55Jay]

18 minutes ago, Rc2702 said:

Contactless card. Extremely common amongat western countries and a lot of expats pull cash out the banks they bank with abroad here. I never use my Thai bank to pull cash from. Ever. I realise that may seem odd. Rainy day.

Wow.  OK.  Take care.

[xylophone]

8 hours ago, Rc2702 said:

by sounds of it you were subjected to a skimming machine in an ATM with as mentioned; pinhole camera to mo it or your pin code data.

Happened to me whilst using an ATM outside of Ocean Plaza on my first visit to Patong, and 20,000 baht (equivalent) was withdrawn from my account in my NZ bank.

 

Contacted them when I found out and they couriered me a new card immediately and reimbursed the funds.

 

I went to the ATM and although the skimming device was no longer there, there was a small piece of sticky tape in the top corner and I was told it probably had a small camera fixed to it, Then a few days later the BIB caught a skimmer in Patong, so I sent that info to my NZ bank to back up my story, but not needed because they had already refunded my money............can't fault their service!!

 

 

[Berkshire]

OP, I assume you've cancelled your card and been reissued a new one.  Would be curious to know if the bank has reimbursed you for your losses.  Question: When you key in your PIN, do you cover the keypad?

[watcharacters]

16 hours ago, lemonjelly said:

Yes, your card was probably cloned and a discreetly placed camera recorded you entering your PIN number


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

 

 

 

That makes sense but it's particular to me that I hadn't used the card for nearly 2 years.

 

 

And that prior use was in a city 500 kilometers north of me in the heart of Issan.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by watcharacters

[impulse]

8 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

That makes sense but it's particular to me that I hadn't used the card for nearly 2 years.

 

And that prior use was in a city 500 kilometers north of me in the heart of Issan.

 

Damn, that was a tenacious skimmer.  Or a patient one.   Followed you for 2 years and 500 km...

 

And yes, I'm kidding.

 

Please do us all a favor and close the loop by posting back with the results, along with the name of the bank.  Thai banks have a bad reputation for not reimbursing losses like that.  More data points would be helpful in knowing whether that reputation is deserved or not.  Some of us may change our banking habits knowing that.  

 

FYI, my K-Bank account sends me a text after every transaction.  My phone usually vibrates before I even get the card out of an ATM, and within a minute or two of an online transaction.  I doubt that's fast enough to stop someone doing back to back withdrawals up to my limit, though.

 

[watcharacters]

13 hours ago, Rhys said:

Trust this all works out...vary your ATB withdraw locations?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Rhys.

 

I admit I somewhat had that feeling of invulnerability common with many youths.     I mostly do use bank locations  for withdrawals and when I don't I look for any abnormalities with the ATM      As mentioned, I had not used the card in nearly two years and I definitely don't carry it with me.     It's left in the safe as a back up. 

[Peterw42]

OP, you appear more concerned about seeing photos of the skimmers ? Not sure what that will accomplish. You dont mention trying to get reimbursed or getting a new card etc, only keeping your fingers crossed that you can see a photo ?????. 

If these guys are clever enough to skim your card etc, they would be clever enough to use an ATM with no camera, cover the camera, or wear a disguise.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Peterw42

[KMartinHandyman]

There are also hackers who use brute force computing to crunch random 16 digit card numbers against expiration dates and 4 digit pin possibilities, pinging each combination against an automated transaction like a $1 phone call. When the charge is accepted they know it’s a live card and go to town. The bank described that for me as I was a little insistent to understand the breach of my card and where the breakdown occurred. It didn’t completely make sense without names and billing addresses but that’s the gist of what they said was a likely explanation.

 

[Meljames]

36 minutes ago, impulse said:

Thai banks have a bad reputation for not reimbursing losses like that. 

Lost my card twice through my own carelessness and my account was drained one of those times. Both times, the bank gave me a list of charges made to my account and asked me to circle any charge I did not make.My account was credited  for all charges I had not made. The only charge to me was the 300 baht for a new card. Excellent  and professional service both times.

 

Sounds  like someone the OP knew had access to his card and took advantage. A skimmer wouldn't wait around 2 years to collect on his efforts.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Meljames

[Peterw42]

10 minutes ago, Meljames said:

Sounds  like someone the OP knew had access to his card and took advantage. A skimmer wouldn't wait around 2 years to collect on his efforts.

Could also explain why the OP seems more interested in seeing photos of the people rather than getting reimbursed etc. He mentions wanting to see photos of them 3 times in the OP.

[impulse]

18 minutes ago, Meljames said:

Lost my card twice through my own carelessness and my account was drained one of those times. Both times, the bank gave me a list of charges made to my account and asked me to circle any charge I did not make.My account was credited  for all charges I had not made. The only charge to me was the 300 baht for a new card. Excellent  and professional service both times.

 

Which bank was that?

 

[sfokevin]

You say they withdrew 30,000 twice?... I did not know that 30,000 at one time was possible?... I thought the ATM limit was 20,000 a time... Or do you have it set higher and if so who knows you have a higher limit of withdrawal?...

[watcharacters]

12 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Could also explain why the OP seems more interested in seeing photos of the people rather than getting reimbursed etc. He mentions wanting to see photos of them 3 times in the OP.

Could also explain why the OP seems more interested in seeing photos of the people rather than getting reimbursed etc. He mentions wanting to see photos of them 3 times in the OP.

  15 minutes ago, Meljames said:

Sounds  like someone the OP knew had access to his card and took advantage. A skimmer wouldn't wait around 2 years to collect on his efforts.

 

 

 

I love this..   I'm reminded of the long defunct AC2  and the detective type questions posters asked about such things as how did a guys girlfriend manage to view any of the forums content.   That could go on for pages and pages.

 

Back to your post Peterw42.   Please tell me  and the rest of the forum what You were doing on the 26th of December 2017?

 

Were you anywhere near the TBM bank that day when the crime took  place?

 

Of course I want to see the photos of the perp.      Just as Beau Bridges said in True Grit, "cut him down,  I may know him"

 

I know the chances of the thief being caught are between the proverbial slim and none,  but I want to do whatever I can to prevent that person (s) from doing a repeat to   me or someone else.

 

I may have mentioned photos 3 times in my OP,  I didn't count.     I do know I never once to anyone gave the slightest hint that I anticipated or hoped for the TMB bank to do any  reimbursement.      They did nothing wrong, they simply own the ATM.

 

My bank in the USA implied but didn't promise that i would be reimbursed.     I'm mentally prepared that I will simply have to eat the loss.

 

I figure if I cut down to no more than 300 calories a day of  food and limit myself to one beer every other week I can manage to get through this event.