U.S. charges Russians with 2016 U.S. election tampering to boost Trump

[KhaoNiaw]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

Damian Collins is very much a politician with an agenda. His hounding of social media companies to come up with something on Russian interference in the brexit campaign has everything to do with his ongoing high profile involvement with the remain cause. An involvement which included setting up his own YouTube channel to propagate Project Fear's lies, including George Osborn's lie that half-a-million-or-more jobs would disappear in the months that followed a vote to leave, and a false claim that Spain's prime minister had said that British expats would lose their right to live in Spain should we vote for brexit.

 

He also has a dodgy record on expenses:

 

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkestone/news/mp-tried-to-claim-6000-119106/

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-who-own-london-homes-still-claim-rent-2151575.html

 

And then there's this unnecessary and extravagant 'jolly' to the USA:

 

https://order-order.com/2018/02/06/damian-collins-fake-news-jolly-us-costing-taxpayer-30000/

 

Makes one wonder what motivates his promotion of George Soros, a man who is no friend of the UK.

Yes, he's a Tory so he's obviously dodgy. But you can't carry that into a parliamentary enquiry where there is a level of scrutiny far beyond anything applied to Facebook or Twitter. He's not the only member of the committee and does not have carte blanche over its workings. 

 

I have no love of Soros. And I don't believe Mercer is any friend of the UK either. But they have nothing to do with this topic and throwing them in there is downright deflection. 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure why you'd think the Russians tried it on in the US but not the UK. As I said before, it's not really a concern of mine because it's the Russians doing what they've always done. The real culprits who don't have their own country's best interests at heart are much closer to home.    

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given it's been over a year, and there has been ZERO evidence that anyone on Trump's team colluded with the Russians to interfere with the elections, and Rosenstein specifically said NO AMERICAN was involved in the current indictments, it's looking really good for Trump. There was interference in the elections by the Russians but not by Trump, or his team.

 

I guess the resistance must be getting despondent, as we don't hear about it, or calls for impeachment much anymore.

 

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

Did you forget the email to Don Jr promising compromising information on Hillary Clinton as part of the Russian government support for Trump?  The one to which Don Jr responded "I love it!"?    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html

 

The investigation is ongoing.  Wait for the results.

 

Edit:  Trump's refusal to take any actions to prevent future Russian interference is at best dereliction of duty, at worst complicity in the crime.

 

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Rosenstein has gone on record as saying NO AMERICAN took part knowingly as part of a "collusion".

It is the FBI's job to take actions "to prevent future Russian interference" and the person that would order that would be Rosenstein, as Sessions has recused himself on matter Russian. Trump can't interfere with FBI operations.

 

8 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You're getting yourself into a muddle. The 'no collusion' being discussed is the 'no collusion' with the Russian trolls who have been charged. As this is the subject of the thread, why would you try to interpret Thaibeachlovers' comment any other way?

You need to pay attention to context.  As the series of posts and replies above show, thaibeachlovers was clearly talking about collusion in the campaign, not collusion specific to the Russian trolls.

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

Yes, he's a Tory so he's obviously dodgy. But you can't carry that into a parliamentary enquiry where there is a level of scrutiny far beyond anything applied to Facebook or Twitter. He's not the only member of the committee and does not have carte blanche over its workings. 

 

I have no love of Soros. And I don't believe Mercer is any friend of the UK either. But they have nothing to do with this topic and throwing them in there is downright deflection. 

 

Anyway, I'm not sure why you'd think the Russians tried it on in the US but not the UK. As I said before, it's not really a concern of mine because it's the Russians doing what they've always done. The real culprits who don't have their own country's best interests at heart are much closer to home.    

 

He is the head of the relevant committee. And he is threatening social media companies with sanctions if they don't come up with evidence which fits his agenda - evidence those social media companies have categorically stated they don't have. One gets the impression he wants them to just make some up.

[Khun Han]

6 minutes ago, heybruce said:

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Given it's been over a year, and there has been ZERO evidence that anyone on Trump's team colluded with the Russians to interfere with the elections, and Rosenstein specifically said NO AMERICAN was involved in the current indictments, it's looking really good for Trump. There was interference in the elections by the Russians but not by Trump, or his team.

 

I guess the resistance must be getting despondent, as we don't hear about it, or calls for impeachment much anymore.

 

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

Did you forget the email to Don Jr promising compromising information on Hillary Clinton as part of the Russian government support for Trump?  The one to which Don Jr responded "I love it!"?    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html

 

The investigation is ongoing.  Wait for the results.

 

Edit:  Trump's refusal to take any actions to prevent future Russian interference is at best dereliction of duty, at worst complicity in the crime.

 

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Rosenstein has gone on record as saying NO AMERICAN took part knowingly as part of a "collusion".

It is the FBI's job to take actions "to prevent future Russian interference" and the person that would order that would be Rosenstein, as Sessions has recused himself on matter Russian. Trump can't interfere with FBI operations.

 

17 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You're getting yourself into a muddle. The 'no collusion' being discussed is the 'no collusion' with the Russian trolls who have been charged. As this is the subject of the thread, why would you try to interpret Thaibeachlovers' comment any other way?

You need to pay attention to context.  As the series of posts and replies above show, thaibeachlovers was clearly talking about collusion in the campaign, not collusion specific to the Russian trolls.

 

Sorry, but Thaibeachlovers made it perfectly clear in the quote at the top of your above post that he was referring to the current indictments. You really are getting yourself into a muddle here.

[sirineou]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43095881

 

"Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein said there was no allegation that any American was "a knowing participant in this illegal activity""

No My friend,  Attorney General Rod Rosenstein's statement that you quotes pertains to the indictments and not Mueller's entire investigation.

So Mueller has not made any allegations of collusion in these indictments . it does not mean he won't in others.

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Sorry, but Thaibeachlovers made it perfectly clear in the quote at the top of your above post that he was referring to the current indictments. You really are getting yourself into a muddle here.

Really?  When I reminded thaibeachlovers about the Don Jr emails, he responded with "NO AMERICAN took part knowingly as part of a "collusion"." You think that referred to the Russian trolls?

[Khun Han]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Really?  When I reminded thaibeachlovers about the Don Jr emails, he responded with "NO AMERICAN took part knowingly as part of a "collusion"." You think that referred to the Russian trolls?

 

That's his opinion, to which he's entitled. But your accusation was that he'd misquoted Rod Rosenstein, which you yourself have shown in that post full of quotes to not be the case.

[Khun Han]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

No My friend,  Attorney General Rod Rosenstein's statement that you quotes pertains to the indictments and not Mueller's entire investigation.

So Mueller has not made any allegations of collusion in these indictments . it does not mean he won't in others.

 

You need to do a little catching up on this thread.

[KhaoNiaw]

25 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

He is the head of the relevant committee. And he is threatening social media companies with sanctions if they don't come up with evidence which fits his agenda - evidence those social media companies have categorically stated they don't have. One gets the impression he wants them to just make some up.

Which they also said in the US. But then it turned out that when they looked, the evidence was there.

 

You also seem to have conveniently ignored the evidence in the links I've given. Apart from the quotes I posted. Even though I've chosen links from newspapers that also have an agenda which would be much better served by suppressing the stories.  

In any case, I think the reverberations from the Mueller investigation will reach the UK in time. And as I have said a couple of times already, I think this line of investigation into the Russian trolls is something of a distraction from the real issues. If it forces the social media corporations to sort out their businesses so much the better but there are other fish to fry, who probably welcome the chance to hide behind the distraction of Russia. Though as JingThing has pointed out, this may suit Mueller and let him get on with his other business.

Edited February 17, 2018 by KhaoNiaw

[Khun Han]

3 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

Which they also said in the US. But then it turned out that when they looked, the evidence was there.

 

You also seem to have conveniently ignored the evidence in the links I've given. Apart from the quotes I posted. Even though I've chosen links from newspapers that also have an agenda which would be much better served by suppressing the stories.  

In any case, I think the reverberations from the Mueller investigation will reach the UK in time. And as I have said a couple of times already, I think this line of investigation into the Russian trolls is something of a distraction from the real issues. If it forces the social media corporations to sort out their businesses so much the better but there are other fish to fry, who probably welcome the chance to hide behind the distraction of Russia. Though as JingThing has pointed out, this may suit Mueller and let him get on with his other business.

 

Your links are anecdotal. There are anecdotes on people (such as the Glaswegian security guard) who were wrongly implicated in the US 'Russian trolls' investigation.

 

I agree with you on the investigation. But I expect we differ as to why it's a distraction: IMO it's to distract the masses from their disillusionment with the globalist Establishment. Whilst there's no question that the world's big powers try to interfere in each others' affairs in underhand ways, this is the Establishment's 'nuclear bomb', it's 'insurance policy' to overturn  democratic votes which disrupt their agenda.

[KhaoNiaw]

17 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

this is the Establishment's 'nuclear bomb', it's 'insurance policy' to overturn  democratic votes which disrupt their agenda.

Maybe. But I don't think they can overturn any votes. 
The real end game is for those people on the fringes of the Establishment who pretend they are not really part of the Establishment, the ones who have always been there in the background. Tax cuts and deregulation. UK out of the EU. US-UK trade deal that will force the UK to accept US regulations on food and let US private healthcare in to destroy the NHS. Big money has been put into it already and paths may have intersected at times with what the Russians are doing. They're still the Establishment though, just not the neo-liberal side of it, even if they're in the shadows.

Edited February 17, 2018 by KhaoNiaw

[sirineou]

26 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

You need to do a little catching up on this thread.

I dont have the time to read seven pages of responses nor do I have the inclination.

I was not responding to the whole thread, I as responding to what I understood to be an assertion that Rosenstein in his announcement said that there were no allegations of americans involved.

  If I misunderstood please correct me. 

[Khun Han]

18 minutes ago, KhaoNiaw said:

Maybe. But I don't think they can overturn any votes. 
The real end game is for those people on the fringes of the Establishment who pretend they are not really part of the Establishment, the ones who have always been there in the background. Tax cuts and deregulation. UK out of the EU. US-UK trade deal that will force the UK to accept US regulations on food and let US private healthcare in to destroy the NHS. Big money has been put into it already and paths may have intersected at times with what the Russians are doing. They're still the Establishment though, just not the neo-liberal side of it, even if they're in the shadows.

 

I tend to agree with most of your post. When I talk about overturning democratic votes, I don't refer to outright cancelling them, I refer to undermining them to the extent that the masses are turned back to the 'correct' path at the earliest opportunity. Different establishment factions squabbling over control can only be a good thing. If one faction gets complete control. we really are in trouble.

[Khun Han]

19 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I dont have the time to read seven pages of responses nor do I have the inclination.

I was not responding to the whole thread, I as responding to what I understood to be an assertion that Rosenstein in his announcement said that there were no allegations of americans involved.

  If I misunderstood please correct me. 

 

The discussion was about whether-or-not Thaibeachlovers had misinterpreted Rosenstein's statement. Storm in a teacup really.

[heybruce]

53 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

That's his opinion, to which he's entitled. But your accusation was that he'd misquoted Rod Rosenstein, which you yourself have shown in that post full of quotes to not be the case.

He did not misquote Rosenstein?  Perhaps you can show me where in the article Rosenstein used the word "collusion".  The closest I could find was:

 

"The indictment is silent on the question of whether the Trump campaign colluded with the Kremlin, which Mueller is investigating." 

 

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

He did not misquote Rosenstein?  Perhaps you can show me where in the article Rosenstein used the word "collusion".  The closest I could find was:

 

"The indictment is silent on the question of whether the Trump campaign colluded with the Kremlin, which Mueller is investigating." 

 

 

What are you going on about now? I'm discussing what Rosenstein said in relation to the thread topic. You keep trying to drag Trump into this directly by wrongly attributing Thaibeachlovers' understanding of what he said, on the basis that Thaibeachlovers offered an opinion that Trump is starting to look indirectly absolved by it.

[bendejo]

21 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The only logical reason that I can think of for this disbelief and inaction is that he benefits personally somehow from it.

 

Can anyone offer another reason to explain this behaviour?

 

Blackmail.

 

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

What are you going on about now? I'm discussing what Rosenstein said in relation to the thread topic. You keep trying to drag Trump into this directly by wrongly attributing Thaibeachlovers' understanding of what he said, on the basis that Thaibeachlovers offered an opinion that Trump is starting to look indirectly absolved by it.

I don't see why my post confused you.  You are arguing that thaibeachlovers' claim "Rosenstein has gone on record as saying NO AMERICAN took part knowingly as part of a "collusion". " is true, even though Rosenstein said nothing about collusion in the article, and the article clearly states "The indictment is silent on the question of whether the Trump campaign colluded with the Kremlin, which Mueller is investigating." 

 

You earlier stated "The FBI charges against Russian trolls is the subject of this thread".  You are correct, the thread and the article it is based on are about charges against Russian trolls, not collusion.  That is why thaibeachlovers claim that Rosenstein is on the record as saying no Americans took part in collusion is incorrect, the term collusion was never used.  The article specified that the indictment made no comments on collusion.  Though I'm sure thaibeachlovers' intent was deception, suggesting, just like Trump, that every news release about the investigation that doesn't specifically indict Trump constitutes total vindication of his repeated "no collusion" claim.

Edited February 17, 2018 by heybruce

[bendejo]

Looks like our modern-day political seer is Richard Clarke.

He warned Team 43 of 9/11 months in advance.

A few years back be wrote a book about how the next war would be in cyberspace. 

 

Oh wait, he was in Bill Clinton's administration, so it's obviously biased and wrong and fake news and nobody likes him anyway.  He's weak and a liar and a choke artist.  Never mind.

 

 

[buick]

i'm an american.  i don't believe the russians changed a single vote of an american citizen.  i don't support trump or clinton.  this last election will go down in history as the worst in recent history and it has nothing to do with the russians.  it has much more to do with trump and clinton.

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, buick said:

i'm an american.  i don't believe the russians changed a single vote of an american citizen.  i don't support trump or clinton.  this last election will go down in history as the worst in recent history and it has nothing to do with the russians.  it has much more to do with trump and clinton.

Not a single vote? That's ridiculous.

Also people influenced to not vote at all or to vote for throwaway candidates like Stein are as significant as any changed  Clinton/"trump" votes. 

The general feeling in the election was that they both suck more or less equally.  They didn't. The winner sucked much more. Contributing to the feeling that there was no good choice played into the Russian message of a failed American democracy. Putin is really into telegraphing that his democracy may be bogus but the west is no better and what better way to promote that message than to contribute to that being the truth. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Jingthing

[Khun Han]

17 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I don't see why my post confused you.  You are arguing that thaibeachlovers' claim "Rosenstein has gone on record as saying NO AMERICAN took part knowingly as part of a "collusion". " is true, even though Rosenstein said nothing about collusion in the article, and the article clearly states "The indictment is silent on the question of whether the Trump campaign colluded with the Kremlin, which Mueller is investigating." 

 

You earlier stated "The FBI charges against Russian trolls is the subject of this thread".  You are correct, the thread and the article it is based on are about charges against Russian trolls, not collusion.  That is why thaibeachlovers claim that Rosenstein is on the record as saying no Americans took part in collusion is incorrect, the term collusion was never used.  The article specified that the indictment made no comments on collusion.  Though I'm sure thaibeachlovers' intent was deception, suggesting, just like Trump, that every news release about the investigation that doesn't specifically indict Trump constitutes total vindication of his repeated "no collusion" claim.

 

Dear, oh dear, oh dear. What Rosenstein actually said was that no American was a knowing participant in this illegal activity. Sure, he didn't use the word 'collusion'. But even an idiot can see that 'collusion' and 'knowing participation' (sorry, 'participant' - don't want you correcting me ) in this context mean exactly the same thing.

 

I did warn that word games and hair-splitting would be the way forward for some in this debate.

[simple1]

35 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Dear, oh dear, oh dear. What Rosenstein actually said was that no American was a knowing participant in this illegal activity. Sure, he didn't use the word 'collusion'. But even an idiot can see that 'collusion' and 'knowing participation' (sorry, 'participant' - don't want you correcting me ) in this context mean exactly the same thing.

 

I did warn that word games and hair-splitting would be the way forward for some in this debate.

Ping pong, ping pong...

 

U.S. Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who oversees Mueller's work, told reporters in announcing the charges that the investigation was not finished. 

 

Accordingly at this stage of the Muller investigation it is ludicrous to emphatically claim no collusion / malfeasance by Trump or members of his Administration.

Edited February 17, 2018 by simple1

[bendejo]

First they create their own nuance, and then the thread goes on for pages and pages quibbling over it and the discussion gets derailed because not many have the patience to poor through all the bs.  Kellyanne-style pivoting adapted for internet conversation.   Bravo Trumpistas!

 

So lets get back to the subject at hand.  There is no reason to assume their will be no further indictments in this case, and that other sorts of charges may emerge, such as obstruction of justice.

Bear in mind that this is not simply a case of investigating what happened back when, it's also about what is still being played out.  Mueller and crew seem to be playing it cool, letting DT buddy up to Putin, seemingly unnoticed.  Giving them enough rope....

I think the torpedo that will sink the ship is money laundering, all of which was initiated before 2015.

 

Personally, I'd like to see DT do a Thaksin, going into self-imposed exile in Russia (any vacant rooms available at the Ecuadorian embassy in London?).  Trump becomes the brand name of American treason, living on in infamy.  Roll over Benedict Arnold.

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic, baiting, troll posts and replies removed.   Continue and you will get a suspension.  

 

Please re-read the OP and stay on topic.  

[attrayant]

1 minute ago, PhonThong said:

I also stated that I was not looking to impeach him. Don't see any reason for it.

 

That's why I said "toying with the idea".

 

1 minute ago, PhonThong said:

The fact that you don't like him, is not grounds for impeachment.

 

The reasons why I don't like him are because he commits impeachable offenses.  It's not simply because I don't like him.  

 

1 minute ago, PhonThong said:

All the facts are not out yet. Why not just let Mueller finish his investigation?

 

Who (aside from Fox News) has said he shouldn't be allowed to finish his investigation?  You're arguing points that nobody is making.

 

1 minute ago, PhonThong said:

Funny, no one on TV saw the indictments on the Russians coming.

 

We can't see into the future.  Why do you think that's funny?

 

1 minute ago, PhonThong said:

So, what makes you all think you are experts?

 

Where did we all claim to be experts?  Again you're tilting at wind mills.  None of us here are making our posts based on our alleged expertise in political corruption.

 

1 minute ago, PhonThong said:

You are trying to turn this into a Trump vs. Obama again and I want no part of that.

 

Then maybe you shouldn't have been the first person in this discussion to play the 'Obama vs. Trump' card:

 

 

 

[stevenl]

4 hours ago, bendejo said:

 

Blackmail.

 

Don't think so, just his personality not able to admit he was wrong.

[Srikcir]

On 2/17/2018 at 5:47 AM, rooster59 said:

Mueller charged 13 Russians and three Russian companies.

Mueller indicted 16 total individuals:

• 13 Russians
•   1 American (Richard Pinedo) - plead guilty
•   2 Who else?

My guess are two Americans associated with Cambridge Analytica that was hired by the Trump's campaign digital director Brad Parscale in June 2016, after an initial suggestion by Jared Kushner. The company helped the campaign collect data, target voters. https://www.forbes.com/sites/denizcam/2017/12/09/trump-campaigns-data-vendor-cambridge-analytica-says-it-is-moving-away-from-u-s-politics/#710d08fe584a

Perfect fit for Russian cyber propaganda warfare against the US. Lack of details may be Mueller negotiating for guilty pleas. Then it's up the "food chain" for more indictments?

 

[thaibeachlovers]

16 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

 

No, I don't. But I'm making myself comfortable for the excruciating bout of hair-splitting that's about to take place.

 

Don't bother. I have no intention of falling for that trap. I could say Rosenstein said something was white and the usual suspects would claim he actually said black.

They must be getting desperate as with every new revelation it is becoming apparent that there is no there there on the collusion claim and it is all clutching at any straw, no matter how irrelevant, to try and prove something, anything in the hope he'll just give up and go away.

 

[Credo]

It would seem that Russia's involvement might be a little deeper:

 

Russians gave millions of dollars to the NRA during the 2016 election. Then the NRA gave millions to the Trump campaign. It certainly looks like Russian money laundering. And now the FBI is finally investigating.

 

The FBI is investigating the National Rifle Association to determine whether Russians illegally funneled money through the organization to help the Trump campaign.”

The biggest reason that Republicans refuse to do anything about the horrific epidemic of mass shootings in this country is because they are beholden to the NRA.

According to Fortune magazine, the NRA spent over $31 million in 2016 to help elect Donald Trump. That’s three times the amount they gave Romney in 2012.

 

http://mindy-fischer-writer.com/2018/02/fbi-launches-investigation-nra-laundering-russian-money-trump-campaign/