Humans first - soi dogs second! Thais now advocating "the final solution"

[AboutThaim]

11 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

So you say leave the garbage and kill the dogs that will return to eat the garbage?

The local authorities organise both garbage collection and pest control.

 

It really is a waste of time arguing with you when you have your selective blinkers on.

I have yet to see a local authority actually go into private homes to take out the garbage and put it in the bin for collection.  Same as I have yet to see any local authority clean up food scraps left by people who eat outdoors.  I have read about and seen people just stand and walk away from where they ate lunch leaving significant amounts of food.  It requires thought and physical effort to deliver it to a bin (work) if any are provided.  Get the idea?  However they can just sit back and do nothing (aka no work) if the local authority are culling the nuisance dogs.

[Airbagwill]

5 minutes ago, AboutThaim said:

It really is a waste of time arguing with you when you have your selective blinkers on.

I have yet to see a local authority actually go into private homes to take out the garbage and put it in the bin for collection.  Same as I have yet to see any local authority clean up food scraps left by people who eat outdoors.  I have read about and seen people just stand and walk away from where they ate lunch leaving significant amounts of food.  It requires thought and physical effort to deliver it to a bin (work) if any are provided.  Get the idea?  However they can just sit back and do nothing (aka no work) if the local authority are culling the nuisance dogs.

I have yet to see a local authority killing dogs

[Airbagwill]

31 minutes ago, Artisi said:

But plenty of good reasons why.

Haven't heard a single piecevofevidence to support a cull or extermination as they don't work. The is abundant evidence why they have failed time and again.

 

5ab9e10207046_DogsinThailand-2.ppsx

[AboutThaim]

14 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

I have yet to see a local authority killing dogs

As I said, a waste of time.  What you have seen (with selective blinkers on) and what actually happens are miles apart.

[AboutThaim]

12 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Haven't heard a single piecevofevidence to support a cull or extermination as they don't work. The is abundant evidence why they have failed time and again.

 

5ab9e10207046_DogsinThailand-2.ppsx

I guess you haven't HEARD but if you are honest you may have READ plenty of reasons on this forum.

[jvs]

6 hours ago, The manic said:

But why worry about culling animals?  As humans it is our responsibility. The stray dogs are pitiful dogs riddled with worms canker, parasites,  wounds and, all manner of painfull illnesses. It is not a matter of semantics or sentimentality. Stray dogs are unhappy and potentially dangerous and have no place in any society anymore than cockroaches,  headlice or rats, etc. 

,

Yes i do agree with you,i believe animals that suffer should be put to sleep(friendly phrase),culled if you like.

I was thinking a solution like this would work because both camps have to give a little and can take a bit.Kind of a political solution.

Something has to happen and if you make sure there are no more births than people can feed them all they want and still the numbers will decline pretty soon.

I know it is not a radical solution but one everyone(dogs included)can live with.

[Artisi]

3 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

I have yet to see a local authority killing dogs

Unfortunately.

[Airbagwill]

3 hours ago, AboutThaim said:

I guess you haven't HEARD but if you are honest you may have READ plenty of reasons on this forum.

no they have advocated the extermination of the dog population but have n=ot supported their arguments at all.

see if you can find a single piece of authoritative evidence ..in short you cant.

[Keesters]

On 3/29/2018 at 12:58 PM, Airbagwill said:

"Culls don't work...so you say" - No! I don't say, every organisation/authority involved in dog control says so - you are confusing the messenger with the message.

Then it is because they don't keep up with the culling. Continual culling has to work. How can it not.

 

[Keesters]

On 3/29/2018 at 12:37 PM, Airbagwill said:

The Thai authorities are NOT advocating the "final solution" - "Set Zero" as some call it

Continual culling HOW? Darrts - have you costed that? plus euthanising the animals and disposing of the bodies at a rate that is fast enough?

You can capture and destroy small numbers in a small population but in the large mainland population this is not possible as the rate of culling and cost is not effective.

what are you going to do with the cats?

 

 

"If you keep on removing the source of a problem the problem will eventually go away." - this is incorrect especially with a large mainland dog population - the only ways to reduce are neutering and reducing the food supply.

As the authorities know there is no point.

 

The action being taken in Bangkok is capture, vaccinate neuter and release. The expected time is 6 years. to ring the population under control.

In Phuket the SDF "have reduced the street dog population from 80,000 in 2003 to an estimated 4,000 to 6,000 now. And, as a result of the vaccination part of the programme, Phuket is the only province in Thailand that is, according to the government, rabies-free." - SDF

 

to achieve a virtually rabies free you need to keep a level of 70% vaccination and keep other dogs from coming into the area, culling does the opposite, it allows dogs in from outside areas. So to keep the 70% the dogs are returned and spayed. 

 

 

I never said Authorities.  Thread title is ' Thais now advocating "the final solution". That is Thais is general not Authorities.

As for the HOW I have no recommendations as I said before that is up to those advocating "the final solution"

For the cost that is up to the Thais to determine, NOT YOU, whether they can afford it.

 

How is  neutering and reduce food supply more effective than culling the result is the same. Neutered dog eventually dies after not giving pups. Culled dog the same only quicker. Starved dog dies as does a culled dog but a culled ones death can be more humane.

 

Bangkok dogs under control in 6 years! I think they said that 10 years ago and look at what happened.

 

The thread is about DOGS not cats.

 

[GroveHillWanderer]

On 06/04/2018 at 8:26 AM, Keesters said:

Then it is because they don't keep up with the culling. Continual culling has to work. How can it not.

 

It has never been shown to work on its own although it can be used as an adjunct to the only proven and most effective method of control - vaccination. There are various reasons for this - several of which have been mentioned more than once on here. Anyway, as Airbagwill says, all the major organisations involved in Rabies Control efforts (and various other medical or scientific journals) have published articles confirming this info.

 

Probably one of the best explanations of the scientific principle of why culling alone doesn't work and vaccination does, is in a British Medical Journal article which states as follows:

 

Quote

... the basic reproductive rate of rabies (R₀), a measure of the transmissibility of a pathogen, is consistently low across all demographic settings (R₀ is less than two) and is independent of dog population density (Hampson and others 2009, Morters and others 2013, Townsend and others 2013). This indicates that reducing population density through dog population control will have very little effect on rabies transmission, whereas dog vaccination measures that bring R₀ to less than one will be highly effective in all settings. 

 

To get the full info and become aware of all the reasons why culling alone doesn't work, it's probably best just to read the source articles. Here's a list of links:

 

http://www.missionrabies.com/resources/team-area/faq/

 

http://www.who.int/rabies/dogs/en/

 

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/175/8/188

 

The BMJ article is probably the best one to read, to get a full and complete picture although it is slightly technical in places and a bit long. 

 

Edited April 7, 2018 by GroveHillWanderer

[Henrik Andersen]

28 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

It has never been shown to work on its own although it can be used as an adjunct to the only proven and most effective method of control - vaccination. There are various reasons for this - several of which have been mentioned more than once on here. Anyway, as Airbagwill says, all the major organisations involved in Rabies Control efforts (and various other medical or scientific journals) have published articles confirming this info.

 

Probably one of the best explanations of the scientific principle of why culling alone doesn't work and vaccination does, is in a British Medical Journal article which states as follows:

 

 

To get the full info and become aware of all the reasons why culling alone doesn't work, it's probably best just to read the source articles. Here's a list of links:

 

http://www.missionrabies.com/resources/team-area/faq/

 

http://www.who.int/rabies/dogs/en/

 

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/175/8/188

 

The BMJ article is probably the best one to read, to get a full and complete picture although it is slightly technical in places and a bit long. 

 

It will not change anything because they will reproduce and get more babies and rabies is just one problem dogs running after tourists and motorbikes bite people make accidents Thailand have a over population of soi dogs 

 

[tropo]

23 minutes ago, Henrik Andersen said:

It will not change anything because they will reproduce and get more babies and rabies is just one problem dogs running after tourists and motorbikes bite people make accidents Thailand have a over population of soi dogs 

 

I don't know if it was the intention of your statement "bit people make accidents", but it's a very good point. Apart from an actual bite, dogs chasing motorbikes does "make accidents". They often catch you by surprise and give you a scare, at which point you lose your concentration and instinctively swerve or speed up to avoid a bite. I haven't been bitten yet, but have had some close shaves.

Edited April 7, 2018 by tropo

[Airbagwill]

On 4/6/2018 at 8:38 AM, Keesters said:

I never said Authorities.  Thread title is ' Thais now advocating "the final solution". That is Thais is general not Authorities.

As for the HOW I have no recommendations as I said before that is up to those advocating "the final solution"

For the cost that is up to the Thais to determine, NOT YOU, whether they can afford it.

 

How is  neutering and reduce food supply more effective than culling the result is the same. Neutered dog eventually dies after not giving pups. Culled dog the same only quicker. Starved dog dies as does a culled dog but a culled ones death can be more humane.

 

Bangkok dogs under control in 6 years! I think they said that 10 years ago and look at what happened.

 

The thread is about DOGS not cats.

 

You are right that rabies is only one aspect of the problem.

About 10 years ago.....the BMA attempted a cull.... it was abandoned and failed.

The current program, I believe started last year and involves mobile units.

The object is to capture neuter vaccinate and return.

The vaccination will prevent the spread of rabies and other diseases.....the neutering reduces the birth rate to below the death rate resulting in a reduction in the dog population.

If the BMA get themselves together and reduce the amount of garbage lying around as well the reduction in the dog population will be even more dramatic.

As pointed out, any culled dogs are replaced by dogs from outside or by breeding.

 

As for cats, the city is a ecosystem, removing one species suddenly and completely would then leave a gap for another species....in this case you would get an upsurge in the cat population. Equally capable of spreading diseases such as rabies.

This salutary tale of a town in S.E.Asia illustrates the potential problems of culling. ... Fed up with the numbers of snakes in their town the authorities organised a cull and killed every snake they could find....within weeks the town was overrun with rats.

So be careful what you wish for.

 

[Airbagwill]

On 4/6/2018 at 8:38 AM, Keesters said:

I never said Authorities.  Thread title is ' Thais now advocating "the final solution". That is Thais is general not Authorities.

As for the HOW I have no recommendations as I said before that is up to those advocating "the final solution"

For the cost that is up to the Thais to determine, NOT YOU, whether they can afford it.

 

How is  neutering and reduce food supply more effective than culling the result is the same. Neutered dog eventually dies after not giving pups. Culled dog the same only quicker. Starved dog dies as does a culled dog but a culled ones death can be more humane.

 

Bangkok dogs under control in 6 years! I think they said that 10 years ago and look at what happened.

 

The thread is about DOGS not cats.

 

How do you think soi dogs die now?

[Artisi]

10 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

It has never been shown to work on its own although it can be used as an adjunct to the only proven and most effective method of control - vaccination. There are various reasons for this - several of which have been mentioned more than once on here. Anyway, as Airbagwill says, all the major organisations involved in Rabies Control efforts (and various other medical or scientific journals) have published articles confirming this info.

 

Probably one of the best explanations of the scientific principle of why culling alone doesn't work and vaccination does, is in a British Medical Journal article which states as follows:

 

 

To get the full info and become aware of all the reasons why culling alone doesn't work, it's probably best just to read the source articles. Here's a list of links:

 

http://www.missionrabies.com/resources/team-area/faq/

 

http://www.who.int/rabies/dogs/en/

 

http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/175/8/188

 

The BMJ article is probably the best one to read, to get a full and complete picture although it is slightly technical in places and a bit long. 

 

Rabies is only 1 problem of the overall problem of being far too many dogs roaming the streets of Thailand.

Think you will find the majority of posters promoting a major and ongoing cull are thinking beyond the rabies problem and viewing it as only one of the problems.  

 

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

Rabies is only 1 problem of the overall problem of being far too many dogs roaming the streets of Thailand.

Think you will find the majority of posters promoting a major and ongoing cull are thinking beyond the rabies problem and viewing it as only one of the problems.  

 

You seem to have missed the point.You need to ask WHY Thailand as such a large roaming dog population. 

 

to ensure long term reduction with minimum interference the root environmental causes...food, water and shelter have to be shut down.

 

..The capture neuter and return is used before any rabies scare and has a permanent long term view...to reduce any dog population to manageable proportions.

As has repeatedly be demonstrated....culling won't work, the root cause as you say is n oversized dog population.You have to address the reasons for this or after a cull overpopulation just returns.

It is impossible to eliminate ALL dogs....If you did they would be replaced by the next species...cats or rats.

As part of the CVNR program the neutering of dogs brings the birth rate below the death rate, and the population reduces.

But

This is what has been done in the west...not culls.

Once a population is down to manageable numbers then normalcontrols can be implemented.

There is no overnight solution.... it requires authorities to come to terms with their responsibilities far exceeding just killing dogs...it requires garbage collection and for the dogs a long term project such as the one underway in BKK.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Airbagwill

[GroveHillWanderer]

1 hour ago, Artisi said:

Rabies is only 1 problem of the overall problem of being far too many dogs roaming the streets of Thailand.

Think you will find the majority of posters promoting a major and ongoing cull are thinking beyond the rabies problem and viewing it as only one of the problems.  

 

Dog population control and rabies control are two separate issues. The BMJ article I referred to earlier, addresses this point, stating as follows:

 

Quote

An enduring question is the potential contribution of dog population management interventions to the successful control and elimination of canine rabies. The discussion is complicated by the fact that the objective of canine rabies control and elimination has often been subsumed within a distinct objective – that of managing free-roaming dog populations. Yet neither the problems nor the solutions are the same, and while some approaches may be complementary, others will be counterproductive.

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by GroveHillWanderer

[Artisi]

3 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Dog population control and rabies control are two separate issues. The BMJ article I referred to earlier, addresses this point, stating as follows:

 

 

Fully aware of what you said 

as I indicated, rabies is only a minor concern regarding the vast number of stray dog cluttering the streets of Thailand. 

[Artisi]

19 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

You seem to have missed the point.You need to ask WHY Thailand as such a large roaming dog population. 

 

to ensure long term reduction with minimum interference the root environmental causes...food, water and shelter have to be shut down.

 

..The capture neuter and return is used before any rabies scare and has a permanent long term view...to reduce any dog population to manageable proportions.

As has repeatedly be demonstrated....culling won't work, the root cause as you say is n oversized dog population.You have to address the reasons for this or after a cull overpopulation just returns.

It is impossible to eliminate ALL dogs....If you did they would be replaced by the next species...cats or rats.

As part of the CVNR program the neutering of dogs brings the birth rate below the death rate, and the population reduces.

But

This is what has been done in the west...not culls.

Once a population is down to manageable numbers then normalcontrols can be implemented.

There is no overnight solution.... it requires authorities to come to terms with their responsibilities far exceeding just killing dogs...it requires garbage collection and for the dogs a long term project such as the one underway in BKK.

 

 

The vast majority of posters fully understand WHY, and also are aware that stopping the dumping of more dogs on the street and stop feeding them (even you can't disagree with that point) combined with a structured ongoing plan of eradication is a step forward. 

[Airbagwill]

One might also consider the methods and practicalities of culling....As yet no o be has posted a serious solution...apart from a picture of a gun....which really doesn't account for any of the practicalities

[blackcab]

14 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

One might also consider the methods and practicalities of culling....As yet no o be has posted a serious solution...apart from a picture of a gun....which really doesn't account for any of the practicalities

 

What do you think about how the Malays do things? It seems quite practical:

 

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2018/01/02/ops-targeting-stray-and-free-roaming-dogs-in-sarawak-to-start-on-jan-3/

[Henrik Andersen]

15 hours ago, tropo said:

I don't know if it was the intention of your statement "bit people make accidents", but it's a very good point. Apart from an actual bite, dogs chasing motorbikes does "make accidents". They often catch you by surprise and give you a scare, at which point you lose your concentration and instinctively swerve or speed up to avoid a bite. I haven't been bitten yet, but have had some close shaves.

Just the last month here in my soi I had seen from my balcony 

Dogs bites two people 

Make motorbikes accidents 3 times 

One was very bad need rescue car 

2 Thai people dumb their dogs so now we have 31 dog's 

Myself I kick a dog last week because try bite my baby when we walk 

 

[kekalot]

a friend near Hua Hin just told me that the Department of Livestock Development took their 5 dogs about 2-3 hours ago

from the way she is talking, she seems to think they will be killed.

 

[johng]

4 hours ago, blackcab said:

What do you think about how the Malays do things?

Quote

"We advise dog owners to keep their pets inside the house compound or in a proper enclosure. The authorities will not hesitate or compromise on removing dogs found wandering the streets.

"We have to take such stringent measures to curb the mobility of carriers and control the spread of rabies. We are taking our war against rabies more aggressively and aim to make Sarawak rabies-free in the shortest time possible," Uggah said.

Uggah, who is also the Sarawak Natural Disaster Management Committee chairman, added that "interim parking" centres will be set up to place captured dogs and that unclaimed dogs after 48 hours may be euthanised.

Excellent.

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, johng said:

Excellent.

But but - it doesn't work, thought I would chime in before the experts and save them the effort. 

[Artisi]

6 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

What do you think about how the Malays do things? It seems quite practical:

 

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/nation/2018/01/02/ops-targeting-stray-and-free-roaming-dogs-in-sarawak-to-start-on-jan-3/

The stock standard answer will be - "it doesn't work, or similar response" 

It's much easier to sit there doing nothing, promoting worderful ideas that won't be, can't be applied than actually doing something. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Artisi

[GroveHillWanderer]

31 minutes ago, Artisi said:

The stock standard answer will be - "it doesn't work, or similar response" 

It's much easier to sit there doing nothing, promoting worderful ideas that won't be, can't be applied than actually doing something. 

Again, there are two different issues here that are continually being conflated - dog population control and rabies control. If you're talking about rabies control then the entirely practical ideas, being promoted by all the organisations with the most actual experience of real-world efforts to control this disease, not only can be applied but are being and have been applied successfully and cost-effectively throughout the world.

 

Well-coordinated efforts to achieve 70% vaccination rates of dogs have repeatedly proven to be the most effective means of controlling canine rabies. Successful campaigns using mass canine vaccination have been carried out in dozens of countries around the world. 

 

I've mentioned this before but the best example of this is in the Americas. Up until the 1980's, hundreds of people there died every year from rabies. In 1983, coordinated mass canine vaccination campaigns were started. As of 2013, according to the Pan-American Health Organization (PAHO) website, dog-mediated human rabies cases had been reduced by 95% due to these efforts.

 

Quote

In the Americas, human cases of rabies transmitted by dogs are currently limited to a few areas and are at an all-time low. Brazil and the Dominican Republic were the only two countries that reported such cases in 2013, and only three cases were laboratory-confirmed, according to data collected by PAHO/WHO's Pan American Foot-and-Mouth Disease Center in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

 

This success has been possible thanks to the sustained commitment of governments to rabies elimination efforts, especially mass rabies vaccination of dogs, which is the main tool for eliminating human rabies transmitted by dogs. Education and awareness about the risks of rabies, responsible dog ownership, and the need for proper prophylaxis before and after possible exposure to the virus are also parts of a comprehensive rabies program.

PAHO website

[Artisi]

38 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Again, there are two different issues here that are continually being conflated - dog population control and rabies control. If you're talking about rabies control then the entirely practical ideas, being promoted by all the organisations with the most actual experience of real-world efforts to control this disease, not only can be applied but are being and have been applied successfully and cost-effectively throughout the world.

 

Well-coordinated efforts to achieve 70% vaccination rates of dogs have repeatedly proven to be the most effective means of controlling canine rabies. Successful campaigns using mass canine vaccination have been carried out in dozens of countries around the world. 

 

I've mentioned this before but the best example of this is in the Americas. Up until the 1980's, hundreds of people there died every year from rabies. In 1983, coordinated mass canine vaccination campaigns were started. As of 2013, according to the Pan-American Health Organization (PAHO) website, dog-mediated human rabies cases had been reduced by 95% due to these efforts.

 

PAHO website

Heard it all before, however you hit it right on the head "responsible dog ownernship", never happen in Thailand so it's a waste of breath. You forgot to add, stop feeding soi dogs. 

[Airbagwill]

10 hours ago, Artisi said:

Heard it all before, however you hit it right on the head "responsible dog ownernship", never happen in Thailand so it's a waste of breath. You forgot to add, stop feeding soi dogs. 

But it is actually happening in Thailand. Phuket has been.successful and Bangkok has started.

We all know about incompetence graft corruption, but that also existed in the Americas.

There is also a perception problem with rabies, that's just a symptom, the CNVR campaigns address far more than that.