Is nationalism our ‘Love Destiny’?

[robblok]

16 minutes ago, JAG said:

 

I'm not so sure that most of the population see it as any more than a costume drama to be enjoyed, rather than a lifestyle to aspire to! Alarmingly the current regime certainly aspire to it, but the general population, who realise just how bloody life is at the bottom of the pile in C21 Thailand will, I should imagine, have no desire to go back 300 years. 

 

I remember, back when that soap opera about the army was being hyped, muttering to myself about the bizarre action scenes, and my wife telling me to shut up, "it is only a movie!"

 

As for nationalism, yes, in excess it is definitely not a force for good, but I see nothing wrong with knowing, and being proud of the achievements of one's own country.

JAG,

 

I made a joke, it was 100% sarcasm. 

 

The other part, i see nationalism as a bad thing, just like those great thinker said if you can't do anything yourself to be proud of you have to be proud of what your country does.. kinda cheap in my opinion. If one of the Dutch guys wins with ice skating and the whole population goes mad again I think.. why.. its not like anyone of the supporters did anything themselves. Its just misplaced pride. 

 

Those who accomplished the feat should be proud different story.

Edited April 8, 2018 by robblok

[Misterwhisper]

What "Love Destiny" fans don't realize in their nationalistic bliss is the fact that the vast, vast majority of them - if transported back to the Ayutthaya era - would be dirt poor farmers, day laborers and craftsmen, serfs or actual slaves. Female fans would be sold into marriage at a very young age .

 

None of the fans would be wearing fine silk sarongs and be adorned with gold jewelry while frolicking around lush palace gardens. Instead they'd be draped in a couple of ragged garments made from rough hemp fabric, the women generally baring their breasts.

 

There would be no polished teak floors and gilded columns in their stilted wooden shacks, but rough-hewn floor boards, open cooking fires and no furniture to speak of. The hygienic situation in vast parts of the city would be catastrophic by modern standards, with difficult access to clean drinking water and frequent epidemic outbreaks of diseases like malaria, cholera and typhus.  

 

So how's that for the "good old days"?

 

What is depicted in "Love Destiny" (and not even historically accurate) is the lifestyle of a very small aristocratic, monastic and military elite and a handful of wealthy traders that held sway over a sea of impoverished, disease-ridden peasants. And what the junta flogs as "traditional Thai costumes" are in fact garments that only could be afforded by a tiny proportion of the population.  

[robblok]

Only time nationalism is not bad IMHO and something to be proud of if a country all pulls together and does something. Like everyone donates money or clothes to combat a disaster or stuff like that. Stuff people themselves actually play part in. Now for instance if all Thais were to pull together and combat the littering and get their country clean... that would IMHO be far more important and a reason for pride then the Thais or whoever winning a historical battle xxx years ago. 

 

But not when a scientist from a country finds a cure for cancer (the one who has to be proud is that person and his team), or not when a athlete wins something. Those instances I feel its misplaced pride.

[baboon]

11 minutes ago, robblok said:

Only time nationalism is not bad IMHO and something to be proud of if a country all pulls together and does something. Like everyone donates money or clothes to combat a disaster or stuff like that. Stuff people themselves actually play part in. Now for instance if all Thais were to pull together and combat the littering and get their country clean... that would IMHO be far more important and a reason for pride then the Thais or whoever winning a historical battle xxx years ago. 

 

But not when a scientist from a country finds a cure for cancer (the one who has to be proud is that person and his team), or not when a athlete wins something. Those instances I feel its misplaced pride.

That rare moment when I say 'Rob, I couldn't agree with you more'...

[baboon]

2 hours ago, hansnl said:

Democratic election is the key?

Like in the EU, for example?

Or in the US?

Where people now say: "I was never asked".

Democracy, as we know it, is highly overrated, and has been degraded to a four year circus while nothing changes.

Blame the players not the game...

[lamyai3]

4 hours ago, Odysseus123 said:

I wonder what this thing is about topless women.

 

Depending on the season many women historically went topless,usually in hot countries in the world.

Quite right, it's hardly just a Thai thing. Easy to find historical records  of similar from all the neighbouring countries, as well as pretty much anywhere else that's hot. No doubt it was a real headache for the colonialists wives, though I'm sure the men managed to bear the indignity of it all. The irony of the current announcement though was until a few years ago the picture header on the Ministry's website was showing exactly this traditional dress, young ladies joyfully splashing water, wearing nothing other than a sarong from the waist down. 

[ChidlomDweller]

2 hours ago, hansnl said:

Democratic election is the key?

Like in the EU, for example?

Or in the US?

Where people now say: "I was never asked".

Democracy, as we know it, is highly overrated, and has been degraded to a four year circus while nothing changes.

And the reason you can afford a comfortable life in Thailand is the far better start you had in farangland.  Just because it's not perfect, let's not forget that all in all life is pretty good back home and someone willing to work hard with a brain can build a good life.  Can't say the same for someone born in the wrong socioeconomic group in Thailand.

[lamyai3]

3 hours ago, JOC said:

A Thai university student proudly demonstrating her ignorance.......

Meet Donald McHitler.

They also made him a dwarf to add to the comedic value. An Adolf McMunchkin, appealing for donations for flood relief... 

[Sir Dude]

Everyone has lost their minds. Get to read drivel in the news like this story everyday now. I guess then, if you want everyone to wear traditional clothes then most women should be topless...only the fascist 1% hi-so 100 years ago looked even remotely like this nonsense on the TV.  

[Odysseus123]

35 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Quite right, it's hardly just a Thai thing. Easy to find historical records  of similar from all the neighbouring countries, as well as pretty much anywhere else that's hot. No doubt it was a real headache for the colonialists wives, though I'm sure the men managed to bear the indignity of it all. The irony of the current announcement though was until a few years ago the picture header on the Ministry's website was showing exactly this traditional dress, young ladies joyfully splashing water, wearing nothing other than a sarong from the waist down. 

Yep...it sure got me in.Best TAT advertisement that I have ever seen.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[djayz]

7 hours ago, rooster59 said:

it’s got the younger generation watching TV soaps again

When did they stop watching soaps?

[Thingamabob]

Brain dead.

[Misterwhisper]

9 minutes ago, djayz said:

When did they stop watching soaps?

Around the same time they started watching each other on apps like Line, Skype and WhatsApp and became YouTube stars themselves, I guess. Not that the acting got any better on those media, though...  

[sawadee1947]

8 hours ago, rooster59 said:

“It reflects nostalgia, a yearning for the past, especially for ‘the good old days’. But the belief that the past was better than the present has been linked to biases in memory.

This is not he point.

This describes only symptoms but not the reason.

Why is it, that in many parts of the world people believe times were better centuries ago??

Well, in our days we're moving forward at high speed. If you think about we got smart phones only 11 years ago and many people use not only one.

And another main reason is the high speed digitalization.

Governments could have influence by sending "fake news" to news papers and other medias and we will not detect them as "fake".

We speak to robots (amazon and apple) and these little robots can answer. There was a survey how children act if these gadgets communicate with them . And...the little kids believe everything what they could hear. What a danger for every govt. with brain and responsibility for their people.

The yearning for the "good old days" is an expression for an unsafe and uncertain future!!

A job you were trained on might be highly important today. But tomorrow?

Digitalization is threatening because nobody knows exactly the outcome of "artificial intelligence".

Therefore it's understandable that many people wish to have the old days back again.

Another point is that this unsafe future is the reason for Nazism and all extremism...no matter if it happens in Islam, Christianity, aso. Even the Brexit is one indication. People in UK can not follow the high speed and dreaming of the grand old days of empire.

And the AFD in Germany with 14% of votes shows the same, or the Polish or Hungarian Government with their views back.

And.....another result of the fragile future is Trump.

 

[JAG]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

JAG,

 

I made a joke, it was 100% sarcasm. 

 

The other part, i see nationalism as a bad thing, just like those great thinker said if you can't do anything yourself to be proud of you have to be proud of what your country does.. kinda cheap in my opinion. If one of the Dutch guys wins with ice skating and the whole population goes mad again I think.. why.. its not like anyone of the supporters did anything themselves. Its just misplaced pride. 

 

Those who accomplished the feat should be proud different story.

Oh, Robblok, I realise you were being sarcastic, don't worry. But like all good jokes, there was an element of truth in the humour - that is what I was commenting on. Yes, your suggestion raised a chuckle, but there are those amongst the "establishment" who probably would like society to resemble (their concept of) C18 Ayuttayah/Siam.

 

Nationalism - if I may expand your analogy, is always a matter of skating on very thin Ice. A lot of the time, as in your example it is just silly, but there are things which both our countries have done which we can be proud of. For example, the Dutch endeavours and feats in reclaiming much of their country from the North Sea are something which the country has done and should be proud of. There are certain things the UK has done in recent years of which we can be proud. I have played a small part in a couple of them and am personally proud of that. There will be things which Thailand has achieved of which they should be proud; leaving out the inherent political element, a significant reduction in the countries infant mortality rate over the early years of this century is something of which they should be proud.

 

But I agree nationalism, recited as a mantra and used for political ends is cheap. When carried into the sporting arena, it is silly and often cheap - except of course when beating the French at rugby, or (occasionally) the Australians at cricket, then it is entirely justified.

[robblok]

43 minutes ago, JAG said:

Oh, Robblok, I realise you were being sarcastic, don't worry. But like all good jokes, there was an element of truth in the humour - that is what I was commenting on. Yes, your suggestion raised a chuckle, but there are those amongst the "establishment" who probably would like society to resemble (their concept of) C18 Ayuttayah/Siam.

 

Nationalism - if I may expand your analogy, is always a matter of skating on very thin Ice. A lot of the time, as in your example it is just silly, but there are things which both our countries have done which we can be proud of. For example, the Dutch endeavours and feats in reclaiming much of their country from the North Sea are something which the country has done and should be proud of. There are certain things the UK has done in recent years of which we can be proud. I have played a small part in a couple of them and am personally proud of that. There will be things which Thailand has achieved of which they should be proud; leaving out the inherent political element, a significant reduction in the countries infant mortality rate over the early years of this century is something of which they should be proud.

 

But I agree nationalism, recited as a mantra and used for political ends is cheap. When carried into the sporting arena, it is silly and often cheap - except of course when beating the French at rugby, or (occasionally) the Australians at cricket, then it is entirely justified.

For sure some of the ruling class would love to go back to the good old times.. it would be bad for 99% of the populace.. like many stated.

 

Anyway in a later post I expanded on my view of nationalism and yes things like reclaiming land (done by a large part of the populace together would qualify). I think we don't differ much in our opinion about nationalism. Just like you have an exception for when its justified in sporting events the Dutch have one too.. when (on those rare occasions) we beat the Germans at soccer its totally justified. (I don't like soccer but it at that moment id make an exception)

[Oziex1]

8 hours ago, robblok said:

Nationalism in general is a bad thing, it creates wars and it makes people treat other people .....   

 

Agreed Thais don't need more of it, it is holding Thailand back. But loads of other countries are nationalistic too you see it here on the forum. 

Yes, the ruling elites all over the world are encouraging it and with the major movement of refugees and immigration racism and xenophobia is flourishing all to the detriment of our social advancement. We are going backwards so terribly sad.

[djayz]

4 hours ago, Misterwhisper said:

Around the same time they started watching each other on apps like Line, Skype and WhatsApp and became YouTube stars themselves, I guess. Not that the acting got any better on those media, though...  

You call that "acting"?!?! ?

Edited April 8, 2018 by djayz