Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[mokwit]

Just now, robblok said:

Actually i read about sub Q for test not sure how many times you have to do that. We are talking TRT here not bodybuilding doses. 

Once a week intramuscularly can be a TRT schedule and that is what i was thinking about when I made the 54-84 point. I used the example of a bodybulder in his twenties who stated that he was having injection site scar tissue problems to show that the issue was a real one, maybe with LT TRT dose.

 

The reason for Low dose frequent e.g. SubQ 2x 1 week is that there is a lesser amount that can actually be injected subq vs glutes (1 even 1/2 Ml is too muc)h and also there is less of a spike in plasma levels and therefore less aromatisation to eostogen - also apparently less swing in plasma levels and therefore less mood swings from maybe hyper at day 2 to depressed at day 14. Note I am not speaking from personal experience on this.

[Justfine]

Heavy v light. It's like comparing running v walking. When you lift heavy there is more strain on muscles, tendons and ligaments as near maximum force is being applied. Doing something at 65% force for 10 reps is normal for the body and far less risk.

 

I don't go below 5 reps.

[Justfine]

55 minutes ago, poanoi said:

the surreal situation of getting alien fluids injected into my naked ar$e

by another big man didnt drop in intensity,

and i dont want to find out if it ever will

Get a ladyboy to do it. That's not gay according to some surveys.

[Justfine]

1 hour ago, poanoi said:

actually....i didnt get anywhere the first year in spite of strict and hard workout,

another builder said maybe this just isnt for all...

but after that year, i was introduced to the pyramid, and boy did i explode in

strength and size every week ?!?!!!!!!!!

that same builder that had previously concluded i just wasnt going to get anywhere

got hugely impressed, too, just like everyone else.

the downside is injuries

3 principles

1 progressive overload

2 time under tension

3 volume

 

Met those 3 principles, eat enough protein and dont overtrain you have to grow. 

[geriatrickid]

22 hours ago, robblok said:

As usual you have no idea what your talking about and start with a lot of scare mongering based on untrue facts.

 

Its already quite normal for people to do TRT replacement without many problems (if you compare it with other medicine). You forget all the benefits they reap. I know your against it but there is no need to lie about stuff. That is the thing people hate most exaggerating claims to get a point across instead of basing it on fact. TRT replacement has been going on for quite some time with some problems but the MAJORITY has no problems.

 

As for the chemicals sourced from the black market that again shows that you have no clue what your talking about and shows your bias. Its quite easy to buy legit Bayer Schering steroids those are made in a normal pharmaceutical lab. No black market nothing.

 

I do agree with you that one should start under supervision of a Dr and do a lot of blood tests. 

 

Nothing is without dangers and if you got pre existing conditions with your heart or prostate (that is why dr's make you do a prostate test before you start with it).

 

Scare mongering wont help your like the guys screaming reefer madness.. we all know the US anti drug movie that was proven totally baseless. Your one of those guys. With proper monitoring of blood values and no pre existing conditions its safe for the large majority of people and brings tremendous benefits. I am not talking about huge muscles but about energy and lower belly fat (both stuff that could kill you) No medicine is safe you have to see how it stacks up against the risks of what your combating.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/

 

Lets put some facts in the discussion.

 

SYSTEMIC EFFECTS OF TESTOSTERONE

The systemic effects of TRT may be exacerbated in men with limited cardiovascular reserve. Previous dogma held that androgens could have atherogenic potential. In a randomized, placebo-controlled trial, Basaria et al. reported an increased risk of cardiovascular events in men randomized to TRT; however, this small cohort had a high prevalence of chronic disease.[46] Today, current literature suggests that TRT has a neutral to beneficial effect on reported cardiovascular events.[47,48] Because some men may have a limited cardiovascular capacity, clinicians prescribing TRT must be cautious with respect to its ability to cause edema.[49] Until date, no longitudinal studies examine the impact of TRT on the cardiovascular system, however some studies suggest that TRT may serve as an adjunct rehabilitative therapy in patients with congestive heart failure (CHF).[50,51,52]

You just demonstrated my point with your foolish response. 

1. The study you cite is for patients with symptomatic hypogonadism.

The number of males who suffer this condition is relatively small. (Gee, didn't I previously state that testosterone  therapy was appropriate for only a small number of patients?) You then take the study out of context and attempt to use it to support your claim that the use of testosterone and other steroids are safe to use  OTC outside of a supervised medical regimen. That is not what the abstract said.  

2, The study makes reference to multiple ongoing  tests and exams that must be undertaken to ensure that the treatment is appropriate. The study screened out the patients for which the  hormone was inappropriate.   The people you are promoting this to  will not be screened, nor will they be subject to multiple  lab tests and  oversight by specialists. Instead, they will take it from an unknown supplier and will not be fully followed.

 

Testosterone and other steroids are not legally allowed for sale  over the counter. One needs a  script. The sale of such drugs without the authorized script is a criminal offense. Because the drugs are regulated, the  illegal supply comes from illegal suppliers. I am well aware that some pharmacies sell the products without a prescription.  

 

These products may have the names of legitimate  pharmaceutical manufacturers on them, but typically they are most likely sourced from China or India and are counterfeit.  Unless you sourced the products from a legal supply chain or have actually had the  drugs tested for efficacy and purity, you have no way of knowing that the product purchased was legitimate. The drugs are temperature sensitive, which is why the supply chain tracking is essential.

 

You don't think I  am qualified to know what I am talking about. Ok.

I know what my education is and I know that my employment is based upon that knowledge. The fact is,  that you can't accept anyone who disagrees with your pushing of these bogus self medication actions.  You have a vested interest.

The actual truth is that you and all the other  proponents have no formal education in pharmacology, nor endocrinology.  How is it that you think you can offer a qualified opinion on the subject if you are uneducated and have no clinical experience? Endocrinologists struggle with getting their dosing levels right and patients suffer through months to get the right dose. Yet, here you come to offer the right  dose to a user, without any knowledge to that user's underlying health or pre-existing medical conditions. 

[Justfine]

40 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

You just demonstrated my point with your foolish response. 

1. The study you cite is for patients with symptomatic hypogonadism.

The number of males who suffer this condition is relatively small. (Gee, didn't I previously state that testosterone  therapy was appropriate for only a small number of patients?) You then take the study out of context and attempt to use it to support your claim that the use of testosterone and other steroids are safe to use  OTC outside of a supervised medical regimen. That is not what the abstract said.  

2, The study makes reference to multiple ongoing  tests and exams that must be undertaken to ensure that the treatment is appropriate. The study screened out the patients for which the  hormone was inappropriate.   The people you are promoting this to  will not be screened, nor will they be subject to multiple  lab tests and  oversight by specialists. Instead, they will take it from an unknown supplier and will not be fully followed.

 

Testosterone and other steroids are not legally allowed for sale  over the counter. One needs a  script. The sale of such drugs without the authorized script is a criminal offense. Because the drugs are regulated, the  illegal supply comes from illegal suppliers. I am well aware that some pharmacies sell the products without a prescription.  

 

These products may have the names of legitimate  pharmaceutical manufacturers on them, but typically they are most likely sourced from China or India and are counterfeit.  Unless you sourced the products from a legal supply chain or have actually had the  drugs tested for efficacy and purity, you have no way of knowing that the product purchased was legitimate. The drugs are temperature sensitive, which is why the supply chain tracking is essential.

 

You don't think I  am qualified to know what I am talking about. Ok.

I know what my education is and I know that my employment is based upon that knowledge. The fact is,  that you can't accept anyone who disagrees with your pushing of these bogus self medication actions.  You have a vested interest.

The actual truth is that you and all the other  proponents have no formal education in pharmacology, nor endocrinology.  How is it that you think you can offer a qualified opinion on the subject if you are uneducated and have no clinical experience? Endocrinologists struggle with getting their dosing levels right and patients suffer through months to get the right dose. Yet, here you come to offer the right  dose to a user, without any knowledge to that user's underlying health or pre-existing medical conditions. 

Most doctors are quacks though.

[GoDucks]

On 6/18/2018 at 11:32 AM, timber said:

You are at the age you need to make some decisions.  Your metabolism in diminishing and if the effort worth it.  Not so hard to stay in good shape, but harder and hard to remain in excellent shape.  Same with sex drive.  How important is is to you?

I have a 20-year-old gf who is quite demanding.  I ned to perform! In fact I could use some help there...  lol

[Justfine]

https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/how-make-pyramid-training-more-effective-building-muscle/

 

Different pyramids

[faraday]

37 minutes ago, Justfine said:

Most doctors are quacks though.

Too many GP's in the UK just give an opinion,  then give you some para/ibu.

 

I had Sinusitis once, the just wouldn't accept it. Nearly had to plead with him for some antibiotics, 3 days later my symptoms diminished, week later, all gone.

 

[Justfine]

25 minutes ago, faraday said:

Too many GP's in the UK just give an opinion,  then give you some para/ibu.

 

I had Sinusitis once, the just wouldn't accept it. Nearly had to plead with him for some antibiotics, 3 days later my symptoms diminished, week later, all gone.

 

They just want to do numbers, pick up payment and piss off to the golf course.

 

Sports science people have the best info on training and diets. Years ahead of most doctors.

[robblok]

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

You just demonstrated my point with your foolish response. 

1. The study you cite is for patients with symptomatic hypogonadism.

The number of males who suffer this condition is relatively small. (Gee, didn't I previously state that testosterone  therapy was appropriate for only a small number of patients?) You then take the study out of context and attempt to use it to support your claim that the use of testosterone and other steroids are safe to use  OTC outside of a supervised medical regimen. That is not what the abstract said.  

2, The study makes reference to multiple ongoing  tests and exams that must be undertaken to ensure that the treatment is appropriate. The study screened out the patients for which the  hormone was inappropriate.   The people you are promoting this to  will not be screened, nor will they be subject to multiple  lab tests and  oversight by specialists. Instead, they will take it from an unknown supplier and will not be fully followed.

 

Testosterone and other steroids are not legally allowed for sale  over the counter. One needs a  script. The sale of such drugs without the authorized script is a criminal offense. Because the drugs are regulated, the  illegal supply comes from illegal suppliers. I am well aware that some pharmacies sell the products without a prescription.  

 

These products may have the names of legitimate  pharmaceutical manufacturers on them, but typically they are most likely sourced from China or India and are counterfeit.  Unless you sourced the products from a legal supply chain or have actually had the  drugs tested for efficacy and purity, you have no way of knowing that the product purchased was legitimate. The drugs are temperature sensitive, which is why the supply chain tracking is essential.

 

You don't think I  am qualified to know what I am talking about. Ok.

I know what my education is and I know that my employment is based upon that knowledge. The fact is,  that you can't accept anyone who disagrees with your pushing of these bogus self medication actions.  You have a vested interest.

The actual truth is that you and all the other  proponents have no formal education in pharmacology, nor endocrinology.  How is it that you think you can offer a qualified opinion on the subject if you are uneducated and have no clinical experience? Endocrinologists struggle with getting their dosing levels right and patients suffer through months to get the right dose. Yet, here you come to offer the right  dose to a user, without any knowledge to that user's underlying health or pre-existing medical conditions. 

First of testosterone is is legal for sale here (not underground labs but Bayer Schering) again an mistake you made just like you told me before that you could only get illegal stuff here.  (your knowledge is severely lacking). Its simply sad to see someone using false arguments to promote your side of the argument. You can check the Bayer yourself and confirm with the manufacturer. I know I have and guess what they were legit. Again one of your arguments gone.

 

I never push anything, this is a choice people will have to make for themselves, after a lot of study and thinking. I would NEVER advise people to do such without proper study / blood tests / consultation with a DR. Your remarks that I would advise people to do it without proper screening is crazy. I have had the blood tests and screening and did a PSA test was checked if my heart was good. Your way of mark here.. as usual. You forget that there are countless Dr's far more qualified then you who promote this. There are enough studies who say its not dangerous and yes there are studies that counter it. That is why people should have an informed opinion.

 

Could you point me out where i said what was the right dosage ? Did i not mention blood tests why do you think those are to see if your getting in the reference range. Jeez you are tuly a GOM pushing your own agenda.

 

I don't have an agenda, i would never push stuff on people I unlike you promote people to read and learn themselves. 

 

 

 

 

[Tacuisse]

7 hours ago, robblok said:

 

Not really, but TV helps a lot to identify problems. My urologist did not know anything and was more interested in pushing pills then to do an examination at all. People seem to think that doctors know it all, they don't. I am an accountant and fiscal adviser by trade but I don't know each and every bit of law, some of my clients know certain real specialist parts better then me as I don't use those laws much. The same goes for Dr's they are great and know a lot but can't know it all and a lot of them don't keep updated on the latest news. 

The medical profession is a bit like financial advice. So difficult to sort the good ones from the duds.

[robblok]

7 minutes ago, Tacuisse said:

The medical profession is a bit like financial advice. So difficult to sort the good ones from the duds.

That is for sure finding the right person DR or otherwise. I am not sure how long you have been in Thailand (not saying its a Thai specific problem). Try finding good handymen / construction workers even Thais have problems with that. 

 

I don't really give financial advice.. just do people their taxes and that is in general pretty straight forward. Not one of those guys that tells people to set up companies in far off countries to dodge tax. When I don't know something, i just call in an expert on that area. There is too much to know everything, best thing is sometimes admitting you need an expert with you.

[Justfine]

18 minutes ago, Tacuisse said:

The medical profession is a bit like financial advice. So difficult to sort the good ones from the duds.

After 5 mins you know whether they know anything.

[Tacuisse]

33 minutes ago, Justfine said:

After 5 mins you know whether they know anything.

Some are very plausible bullshitters.

[Justfine]

1 minute ago, Tacuisse said:

Some are very plausible bullshitters.

I have a finely tuned bs detector.

[Justfine]

24 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

Power gains over a 5 month period:

3rd Jan 2018: squats, [90% of 114k =103k]
5 x 75% = 77.25,  so 80k x5
3 x 85% = 87.55,  so 90k x3
1 x 95% = 97.85, so  100k x 1 (did 5x)

31 May 2018: squats, [90% of 140k = 126k]
5 x 75% = 95 x5
3 x 85% = 105 × 3
1 x 95% = 120  x 1- (did 3x)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never do squats. Don't know how good that is.

[Justfine]

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/other7.htm

 

Found this good for calculating 1rm without having to try doing it.

 

 

[tropo]

9 hours ago, robblok said:

With Bayer Schering i meant Testoviron (or at least that is what it is). But its from a reputable pharmaceutical company. Prices seem to be around 3000 bt for 20 vials (enough for quite a long time if your doing HRT)

Where do you get that price? 3600 is the best I can currently do (180 each). Fascino is 190 each, or 3800 per 20 vials, minus my 5% discount, making them 181 each.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, tropo said:

Where do you get that price? 3600 is the best I can currently do (180 each). Fascino is 190 each, or 3800 per 20 vials, minus my 5% discount, making them 181 each.

I had 3000 before last time I had to buy somewhere else (stock was gone) and I paid 3200 (more as usual). I get this in BKK Nana area. I asked the GF who works at a pharmacy, she said its legal but she can't order it as there just is not enough demand and as she is not high up in the food chain she cant make those decisions. Too bad I dislike going to Nana.

[Justfine]

1 minute ago, hyku1147 said:

So, how strong is everyone?

Is this conversation just about getting ripped?

The trouble with getting ripped is that one looses power.

Why would one use anabolic juice if they just wanted to drop fat?

Depends how you measure strength. I have strong legs but don't squat due to a knee issue and don't bench due to a shoulder issue.

 

Only deadlift light as too concerned about another injury.

 

 

[ncc1701d]

Getting back to the OP’s question - I think it depends on what he wants to actually achieve. 

 

I have found that people who want to do it / try steroids are going to regardless of what the naysayers say. So best to help as much as possible in giving guidance and appropriate advice - which I think has been covered here very well.

[ncc1701d]

17 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

So, how strong is everyone?

Is this conversation just about getting ripped?

The trouble with getting ripped is that one looses power.

Why would one use anabolic juice if they just wanted to drop fat?

My goals are sport specific and injury reduction. I don’t want to be “massive” - it wouldn’t help with my sport at all. 

 

As you say, if you just want to drop fat, then steroids probably aren’t your best option.

[tropo]

41 minutes ago, robblok said:

I had 3000 before last time I had to buy somewhere else (stock was gone) and I paid 3200 (more as usual). I get this in BKK Nana area. I asked the GF who works at a pharmacy, she said its legal but she can't order it as there just is not enough demand and as she is not high up in the food chain she cant make those decisions. Too bad I dislike going to Nana.

The last time I saw 3000 in Pattaya was many years ago. 3200 was the standard price here way back. I know most medicine is cheaper in BKK.

[geriatrickid]

18 hours ago, robblok said:

First of testosterone is is legal for sale here (not underground labs but Bayer Schering) again an mistake you made just like you told me before that you could only get illegal stuff here.  (your knowledge is severely lacking). 

 

Fact: Drug Act B.E. 2510 and amended  by Drug Act No. 5 B.E. 2530  defines  a Specially Controlled Drug.   

“Specially – controlled drug” means a modern or traditional drug notified by the Minister as a specific – controlled drug;

Fact: The Thai FDA classifies drugs as SCD when the;  Drugs which may possess a potentially harmful effect on health, if misused or inappropriate used will be listed in the category of specially controlled drugs whose sales require a prescription. 

Fact: Steroids are classified as a Specially Controlled Drug (aka Schedule SCD) and are subject to prescription. It's in the schedule.

 

Although someone in a shop may sell the chemicals to a consumer, this does not mean that it is a legal sale. Yes, some  pharmaceutical products from  known manufacturers may be sold in Thailand. This does not mean that they are legal sales. Drugs can easily find themselves outside of the  regulated supply chain. Thailand is a land of few enforced regulations and just because one can buy a product OTC does not mean that the sale is legit. Controlled substances are supposed to be sold by Class I pharmacists too and I doubt that the shop clerk providing the  steroids is compliant in that regard. Some people think they can buy land too if they put it in a company name. Go for it.

 

It's nice that you know my profession  and my academic training. such that you can determine my competency. However, that does not change the law or the FDA regulations.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

 

Fact: Drug Act B.E. 2510 and amended  by Drug Act No. 5 B.E. 2530  defines  a Specially Controlled Drug.   

“Specially – controlled drug” means a modern or traditional drug notified by the Minister as a specific – controlled drug;

Fact: The Thai FDA classifies drugs as SCD when the;  Drugs which may possess a potentially harmful effect on health, if misused or inappropriate used will be listed in the category of specially controlled drugs whose sales require a prescription. 

Fact: Steroids are classified as a Specially Controlled Drug (aka Schedule SCD) and are subject to prescription. It's in the schedule.

 

Although someone in a shop may sell the chemicals to a consumer, this does not mean that it is a legal sale. Yes, some  pharmaceutical products from  known manufacturers may be sold in Thailand. This does not mean that they are legal sales. Drugs can easily find themselves outside of the  regulated supply chain. Thailand is a land of few enforced regulations and just because one can buy a product OTC does not mean that the sale is legit. Controlled substances are supposed to be sold by Class I pharmacists too and I doubt that the shop clerk providing the  steroids is compliant in that regard. Some people think they can buy land too if they put it in a company name. Go for it.

 

It's nice that you know my profession  and my academic training. such that you can determine my competency. However, that does not change the law or the FDA regulations.

Where is your fact, I like to see the list because i got Thai Pharmacist here that states you can get it without prescription. I believe someone like that before I believe you. So can you give me a list to the link.

 

Again i have proven that legit steroids can be bought here, and if you do TRT you can have a prescription then even that hurdle that you say is there is gone.

 

But I called you out on the fact that these steroids were legit from a pharmaceutical company and you said it was all underground labs. Not much of your argument sticks. Do you really think I am so stupid not to check if the stuff i bought was legit. Its easy with lot numbers bar codes, the manufacturer can be quite helpful. It did take a while but i got a reply it was legit. 

 

So your only thing is that it MIGHT be on that list but have no link to that list, while i got a pharmacist telling me its NOT a prescription drug. (not the same one as where i buy it). Would have been a lot easier if they stocked it at my local shop. Still I use so little that 1 or 2 trips a year is not a problem.

[robblok]

17 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

So, how strong is everyone?

Is this conversation just about getting ripped?

The trouble with getting ripped is that one looses power.

Why would one use anabolic juice if they just wanted to drop fat?

I am not that strong it was never a goal to get strong, i want to be ripped. Yes you lose strength when you get ripped. 

 

Why would one use anabolics if they wanted to drop fat... maybe to hold on better to the muscle so loss of muscle is less. 

 

But we are talking here about TRT use (low dose to get a natural high). Not about bodybuilder doses, it would be counter productive to run a high dose of steroids while wanting to drop weight a little bit would be good enough for muscle protection. What i sometimes read on the forums scares me people taking 1-2 grams of the stuff.

 

I feel its their own choice you won't hear me tell them to stop if they taken into account the risks let them do it. Not my choice.

 

[Justfine]

3 minutes ago, robblok said:

I am not that strong it was never a goal to get strong, i want to be ripped. Yes you lose strength when you get ripped. 

 

Why would one use anabolics if they wanted to drop fat... maybe to hold on better to the muscle so loss of muscle is less. 

 

But we are talking here about TRT use (low dose to get a natural high). Not about bodybuilder doses, it would be counter productive to run a high dose of steroids while wanting to drop weight a little bit would be good enough for muscle protection. What i sometimes read on the forums scares me people taking 1-2 grams of the stuff.

 

I feel its their own choice you won't hear me tell them to stop if they taken into account the risks let them do it. Not my choice.

 

You are probably stronger than 19/20 people. That's not weak.

 

 

[robblok]

17 hours ago, ncc1701d said:

Getting back to the OP’s question - I think it depends on what he wants to actually achieve. 

 

I have found that people who want to do it / try steroids are going to regardless of what the naysayers say. So best to help as much as possible in giving guidance and appropriate advice - which I think has been covered here very well.

That is true too.. only some see that as aiding and abetting. I am always ready to help people but only after they did their own research. I don't want to be a guy that pushes stuff on people who do no research don't know about the risks and such.

 

That is not me so I normally don't post in topics like this.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Justfine said:

You are probably stronger than 19/20 people. That's not weak.

 

 

Oh for sure.. make that 90 out of a 100 there was a link on a bodybuilder site where you give in age weight and your max 1 RM and then you get a comparison between you and others. I am always quite high there. But besides a short stint with the 5 x 5 program it was never about strength. (actually the 5 x 5 gave me mass and that was what i wanted).