Retirement Visa - Am I allowed to work for myself?

[kenk514]

Brand new to the forum so please bear with me if this is a topic that has been covered.

 

I just turned 50 and I'm looking to move to Thailand next year.

I'm a Canadian citizen with US residency.

I qualify for the Thai retirement visa in every way that I see.

My question is: Am I allowed to operate my online business while holding a Thai retirement visa?

 

I would not be working for a Thai company but rather just continuing to work online for my personally owned LLC.

Thank you kindly in advance for any help and insight that you may offer.

[elviajero]

17 minutes ago, kenk514 said:

My question is: Am I allowed to operate my online business while holding a Thai retirement visa?

According to the law you cannot work without permission. You won’t be able to get formal permission for your work.

 

The best advice is to keep your ‘working’ to yourself. There is no need to voluntarily declare it. If the authorities knew what you were doing the could (unlikely) prosecute, but they are unlikely to come looking for you or be bothered about your work as long as the nature of your business isn’t illegal.

[kenk514]

Thank you, elviajero!

My work is 100% legal and complies with all trade rules and regulation in my field. None of the work takes place in Thailand.

 

Is it possible to get permission?

or

Is it just better to keep this to myself as you say?

[elviajero]

5 minutes ago, kenk514 said:

Thank you, elviajero!

My work is 100% legal and complies with all trade rules and regulation in my field. None of the work takes place in Thailand.

 

Is it possible to get permission?

or

Is it just better to keep this to myself as you say?

Even though you work online you are ‘working in Thailand’ as that’s your physical location. There is no way to get permission as the current laws don’t cater for what you do.

 

Just keep it to yourself. As long as you meet the requirements for the “retirement visa” they do not need to know anything else. 

[KhaoYai]

This probably doesn't happen at other consulates or embassies but when applying for an O-A Retirement Visa in the UK you are asked to complete an additional application form which contains a declaration that states 'in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation during my stay in Thailand'.  That makes the law clear but plenty of people work online and as long as you don't go talking about it, who's going to know?  I doubt they actually care in reality - you are not taking a Thai job and you are spending money in Thailand.

 

http://www.thaiembassy.org/london/contents/filemanager/downloadTH/Long Stay.pdf

Edited July 10, 2018 by KhaoYai

[jackdd]

At least currently the authorities in Thailand don't consider working online as working (if you don't have customers or clients in Thailand and no office in Thailand and just work at home with your laptop and money comes from abroad) so you can do this with whatever visa you like and even tell them, but there is no way to get official permission for it. Of course it might happen that the rules change in the future, so just keep it for yourself.

 

[BritTim]

As @elviajero stated, there is no way of getting formal permission for your business. There are two separate issues: (i) you cannot work on a retirement visa; and (ii) there is no way of getting a work permit for your own online business.

 

That said, you do not have to worry under current policies. The authorities realize that the current laws are antiquated, and they currently have a policy of tolerating "digital nomads". I would not boast about what you are doing but, unless the authorities' attitude changes, you can conduct your online business in peace.

[Lungstib]

I was once told by an immigration officer that if I as much as answered a phone or sent an e-mail I needed a work permit. He also added that even if I did it for free it was work. Just keep it to yourself. 

[jackdd]

18 minutes ago, Lungstib said:

I was once told by an immigration officer that if I as much as answered a phone or sent an e-mail I needed a work permit. He also added that even if I did it for free it was work. Just keep it to yourself. 

Immigration police does not define what is work and what isn't.

I was thinking that the Ministry of Labour is responsible for it, but when i contacted them regarding this topic they told me to contact the Department of Employment: https://www.doe.go.th

When i called the DOE they told me that they don't consider working online as work (actually the first person i had on the phone was like "he think that's work and thus it's illegal without a WP, but he is not sure", he then forwarded the call to his boss and his boss said that working online is not considered work, so no WP needed and allowed on a tourist visa). If anybody wants to confirm it by himself, their phone number is: 1694

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by jackdd

[overherebc]

Just as an add on.

Any money you bring into Thailand should be money you earned in the previous year or has tax paid on it in your own country. So basically it means don't get directly paid in Thailand.

[Kerryd]

18 minutes ago, overherebc said:

Just as an add on.

Any money you bring into Thailand should be money you earned in the previous year or has tax paid on it in your own country. So basically it means don't get directly paid in Thailand.

I spent years working in Afghanistan (10 of them in fact) and for about 8 of those years I had my paycheque wired directly to my Thai bank account.

 

Was not required to report it or pay tax on it in Thailand (taxes were paid in Canada but Thailand had no way of knowing that). All they knew (if anyone ever looked) was that a large sum was being wired to my Thai account every month from Canada. 
I've also wired money from my Canadian account to my Thai account and again, nobody asks "did you pay taxes on that money before it was wired to Thailand". 

Scads of people probably have their pension income deposited in their Thai accounts as well, without ever being questioned about when the money was earned or if it was taxed.

My understanding is that you are only taxed on money you earn while working in Thailand (which of course you can't do on a Retirement Visa or Extension). Some countries (like Canada) require it's citizens to report any income they earn anywhere else in the world and will tax them on it (often as though they were living in downtown Toronto). If they have a tax treaty with the country where the income was earned, then you may be able to claim the taxes you paid in that foreign country as a credit on your Canadian taxes.

People from some countries though, don't have to declare earnings made in other countries, or pay tax on them if they are out of their home country for a certain period of time.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Kerryd said:

I spent years working in Afghanistan (10 of them in fact) and for about 8 of those years I had my paycheque wired directly to my Thai bank account.

 

Was not required to report it or pay tax on it in Thailand (taxes were paid in Canada but Thailand had no way of knowing that). All they knew (if anyone ever looked) was that a large sum was being wired to my Thai account every month from Canada. 
I've also wired money from my Canadian account to my Thai account and again, nobody asks "did you pay taxes on that money before it was wired to Thailand". 

Scads of people probably have their pension income deposited in their Thai accounts as well, without ever being questioned about when the money was earned or if it was taxed.

My understanding is that you are only taxed on money you earn while working in Thailand (which of course you can't do on a Retirement Visa or Extension). Some countries (like Canada) require it's citizens to report any income they earn anywhere else in the world and will tax them on it (often as though they were living in downtown Toronto). If they have a tax treaty with the country where the income was earned, then you may be able to claim the taxes you paid in that foreign country as a credit on your Canadian taxes.

People from some countries though, don't have to declare earnings made in other countries, or pay tax on them if they are out of their home country for a certain period of time.

The rule (more honored in the breach than the observance) is:

• if in Thailand for less than 180 days during the year, you are only liable for tax on earnings made within Thailand; but
• if in Thailand for more than 180 days, you are liable in addition for worldwide earnings, but only insofar as they are remitted to Thailand within the year they are earned.

Money is fungible, so trying to prove whether any particular dollar transferred from a bank account constitutes current year earnings in naturally rather tricky. If you totally separate current year earnings (such as by keeping it in a separate bank account) you can perfectly legally avoid tax on those earnings by Thailand.

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, Kerryd said:

I spent years working in Afghanistan (10 of them in fact) and for about 8 of those years I had my paycheque wired directly to my Thai bank account.

 

Was not required to report it or pay tax on it in Thailand (taxes were paid in Canada but Thailand had no way of knowing that). All they knew (if anyone ever looked) was that a large sum was being wired to my Thai account every month from Canada. 
I've also wired money from my Canadian account to my Thai account and again, nobody asks "did you pay taxes on that money before it was wired to Thailand". 

Scads of people probably have their pension income deposited in their Thai accounts as well, without ever being questioned about when the money was earned or if it was taxed.

My understanding is that you are only taxed on money you earn while working in Thailand (which of course you can't do on a Retirement Visa or Extension). Some countries (like Canada) require it's citizens to report any income they earn anywhere else in the world and will tax them on it (often as though they were living in downtown Toronto). If they have a tax treaty with the country where the income was earned, then you may be able to claim the taxes you paid in that foreign country as a credit on your Canadian taxes.

People from some countries though, don't have to declare earnings made in other countries, or pay tax on them if they are out of their home country for a certain period of time.

Some countries have a tax agreement with Thailand. 

By the way yes lots of people get it paid directly here.

UK pensions are taxed in UK so do not attract Thai tax, not sure on all the other countries.

However Thai law states that income into Thailand in the year it is earned is liable to Thai tax.

[JayBird]

Provided the work has nothing to do with Thailand,, no customers, sales, etc. The only aspect is you are located in Thailand but could  easily accomplish the same anywhere, you should be fine.

 

To be super safe, transfer income to dedicated bank account offshore, then transfer to Thailand in a subsequent year. This helps prove the money is old.

 

 

oh, and don't make enemies in immigration, etc, who could try to cause a problem.

[orchidfan]

11 minutes ago, BritTim said:

The rule (more honored in the breach than the observance) is:

• if in Thailand for less than 180 days during the year, you are only liable for tax on earnings made within Thailand; but
• if in Thailand for more than 180 days, you are liable in addition for worldwide earnings, but only insofar as they are remitted to Thailand within the year they are earned.

Money is fungible, so trying to prove whether any particular dollar transferred from a bank account constitutes current year earnings in naturally rather tricky. If you totally separate current year earnings (such as by keeping it in a separate bank account) you can perfectly legally avoid tax on those earnings by Thailand.

I don't transfer money here to Thailand. ....just use my foreign ATM card here. But withdraw in larger sums as the local bank charges of B220 is the same whatever the amount.

[seancbk]

11 hours ago, kenk514 said:

Thank you, elviajero!

My work is 100% legal and complies with all trade rules and regulation in my field. None of the work takes place in Thailand.

 

Is it possible to get permission?

or

Is it just better to keep this to myself as you say?

 

Just keep it to yourself.

[NoshowJones]

Just do it and keep your mouth shut.

[NoshowJones]

13 hours ago, kenk514 said:

Thank you, elviajero!

My work is 100% legal and complies with all trade rules and regulation in my field. None of the work takes place in Thailand.

 

Is it possible to get permission?

or

Is it just better to keep this to myself as you say?

"Is it just better to keep this to myself as you say?" Yes, without a doubt.

[Chomper Higgot]

13 hours ago, elviajero said:

Even though you work online you are ‘working in Thailand’ as that’s your physical location. There is no way to get permission as the current laws don’t cater for what you do.

 

 Just keep it to yourself. As long as you meet the requirements for the “retirement visa” they do not need to know anything else. 

Adding to this:

 

If you intend to remain a member here and will be working without a work permit from home, register as a new member and never mention working here again.

 

There are people who take pleasure in causing others harm.

[khunPer]

15 hours ago, kenk514 said:

My question is: Am I allowed to operate my online business while holding a Thai retirement visa?

Yes, according to the latest information in threads of ThaiVisa forums and the news feed...

 

A link to Asian Correspondent says it more directly...

»...

Foreigners working for a Thai firm must hold a valid non-immigrant (Type B) visa, but so-called ‘digital nomads’ – who are often self-employed – can sidestep that requirement.

Chiang Mai Immigration Superintendent Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun assured business leaders and foreign consular officials last month that ‘digital nomads’ are permitted to use tourists visas...«

Thailand: Immigration officials raid Chiang Mai co-working space

 

However, it's always advisable to keep a low profile, i.e. don't talk too much...?

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, orchidfan said:

I don't transfer money here to Thailand. ....just use my foreign ATM card here. But withdraw in larger sums as the local bank charges of B220 is the same whatever the amount.

That is still technically transferring the money into Thailand. Although enforcement would be difficult, if you are in Thailand for more than 180 days during the year, and the money could reasonably be identified as money earned during the current year, it is technically subject to tax. The same is true if you withdraw the money while abroad, and carry it across the border yourself. (If you are saying these rules are stupid, I agree with you.)

[elviajero]

38 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Yes, according to the latest information in threads of ThaiVisa forums and the news feed...

 

A link to Asian Correspondent says it more directly...

»...

Foreigners working for a Thai firm must hold a valid non-immigrant (Type B) visa, but so-called ‘digital nomads’ – who are often self-employed – can sidestep that requirement.

Chiang Mai Immigration Superintendent Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun assured business leaders and foreign consular officials last month that ‘digital nomads’ are permitted to use tourists visas...«

Thailand: Immigration officials raid Chiang Mai co-working space

 

However, it's always advisable to keep a low profile, i.e. don't talk too much...?

None of that is relevant to the OP who is neither a ‘tourist’ or a ‘Digital Nomad’. 

[BritTim]

4 minutes ago, elviajero said:

None of that is relevant to the OP who is neither a ‘tourist’ or a ‘Digital Nomad’. 

As a matter of interest, what would you call someone running an online business from wherever in the world they happen to be at the time, if not a "digital nomad"?

 

I think the key is that (in spite of the wording of the laws as they currently exist) the authorities have decided working online, where neither the employer nor any customers are Thai companies or individuals, should be interpreted as working outside Thailand. As such, it is "legal" regardless of your immigration status. They could change their minds in the future.

[moontang]

Occupation:  Retired...the only good answer to give On O-A or extension.  Don't rattle their cage.  I have been buying and selling the same block of Duke Energy and XLU for the last week.  about 8000 USD for 100 DUK and 5200 for 100 XLU...start multiplying that by three buys and three sells and you start getting some big numbers for a week of business on a 50 Dollar tablet...last thing I would ever tell them, but technically I am just a custodian of my own money.  Now if only there was a good place to grab a beer, when the work is done at 4:30,am...

[elviajero]

41 minutes ago, BritTim said:

51 minutes ago, elviajero said:

None of that is relevant to the OP who is neither a ‘tourist’ or a ‘Digital Nomad’. 

As a matter of interest, what would you call someone running an online business from wherever in the world they happen to be at the time, if not a "digital nomad"?

“Digital nomads are a type of people who use telecommunications technologies to earn a living and, more generally, conduct their life in a nomadic manner.”

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_nomad

 

I employ highly paid Software Engineers based in Thailand that can work anywhere, but are in no way “nomadic”.

 

41 minutes ago, BritTim said:

I think the key is that (in spite of the wording of the laws as they currently exist) the authorities have decided working online, where neither the employer nor any customers are Thai companies or individuals, should be interpreted as working outside Thailand. As such, it is "legal" regardless of your immigration status. They could change their minds in the future.

The key is understanding the enforcement of the law, however, their lack of enforcement doesn’t make online ‘work’ legal.

 

They, rightly, tolerate online work because there isn’t really any reason not to, but based on the current law they could prosecute.

 

’Digital Nomads’ are, based on reports, considered to be tourists passing through, and as such are treated as any other tourist keeping up with their work whilst holidaying.

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by elviajero

[balo]

16 hours ago, kenk514 said:

My work is 100% legal and complies with all trade rules and regulation in my field. None of the work takes place in Thailand.

Then you are a digital nomad , working from a laptop , like 100 000 of us already do here.

As long as you pay your taxes in your home country and do not involve Thailand in your work in any way , meaning your salary goes into a foreign bank account , only transfer money for personal use into Thailand when needed , you will have no problem . 

And of course keep any Thais out of it , work alone from your laptop. 

 

 

 

[elviajero]

2 minutes ago, balo said:

Then you are a digital nomad , working from a laptop , like 100 000 of us already do here.

As long as you pay your taxes in your home country and do not involve Thailand in your work in any way , meaning your salary goes into a foreign bank account , only transfer money for personal use into Thailand when needed , you will have no problem . 

And of course keep any Thais out of it , work alone from your laptop. 

Except transferring income earned in the same tax year can create a tax liability in Thailand.

[Small Joke]

The recent changes mean one can reside here and even be a director of an overseas business but reside 'retired' in Thailand. 

Prior to the recent changes (they're in an article in the TV news section BTW)  one needed a permit to even enter the kingdom as the rep of a foriegn business visiting here for a meeting!  It was rarely enforced though. These latest changes were the first I'd even heard of that crazy rule. I used to go to China on a China business visa, while living as a retiree here, and nobody ever questioned it. 

[balo]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

Except transferring income earned in the same tax year can create a tax liability in Thailand.

Ok use a foreign credit card instead and go to the nearest ATM . Same same , but different. 

 

Edited July 11, 2018 by balo

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, elviajero said:

None of that is relevant to the OP who is neither a ‘tourist’ or a ‘Digital Nomad’. 

Thanks for your opinion, but in my view OP indeed is a "Digital Nomad", operating an online business abroad only, so therefore I kindly try to help guiding to other posts about the subject, so OP can judge for himself...?